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Blatant racism vs Covert Racism that sadly and upsetting seems to exist in the sims

Comments

  • drakharisdrakharis Posts: 1,195 Member
    If EA were to make better CAS tools (better sliders, more sliders, colour wheels for skin/hair/eyes, customizable hair-do's, etc) there wouldn't be this problem.

    That is exactly what needs to be done. If EA would have insisted on having a colour wheel and given the devs all the time and resources to create colour wheels for skin hair and eyes instead of giving us Parenthood Skill, Knitting, Eco Lifestyle, Occults etc and keep in mind I play nothing but Occults but would prefer a colour wheel for human and occult sims. I would rather have decent 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a,4b,4c hair than have Occults and Eco Lifestyle. And I really love the Eco Lifestyle pack.

    I hope this teaches EA a lesson that they need to bring back the colour wheel for humans and occults. If it can be done for pets then it should have been done for or sims. I'll admit my cats are my kids and I spoil them but why should I be able to have a pink and purple or rainbow cat in the sims but our African decent Simmers, Asian Simmers, Latino/Hispanic Simmers and all races and ethnicities don't have decent skin tones or decent ethnic and racial hairstyles?

    Sliders and presets are easy and take hardly any time to make.
    Playtesting - not just tabletop games and card games any more. Really that should have been playtested in Beta and not [img]just with accounting and marketing but actual players. https://i.imgur.com/t48COW6.jpg[/img]
  • SimmerGeorgeSimmerGeorge Posts: 1,717 Member
    edited August 15
    Trashmagic wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for simply being unaware, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    You think black people are put on a pedestal? and white people are being shamed? Wow, White people must have a long history of oppression and being abused in this country, that is still ongoing to this day . White people must feel so bad that...black people are getting non ashy skintones.

    Look at all the likes for this tonedeaf, reverse reality comment. Such a shame. There are 50 european/straight hairstyles for a single textured hair in this game. How are we being treated better exactly? We have to beg for more stuff to represent black sims.

    Why does the sims have to represent black sims? Or any skin tone of ours? That's what i'm failing to understand. The need for the sims world to represent our way of life. How is it that the sims game is responsible for representing any of us in any way, whether it be skin tones, hair styles, or other ideas?

    Why do you need representation? Why do I? Why do any of us?

    Representation feels nice. There are many studies that cover the importance of representation in media and yes this includes Sims. One thing I remember is the term symbolic annihilation which is the idea that the less you see of yourself in media (your gender, your skintone, your sexual-orientation and such) the less important you feel. This affects marginalized groups to a greater extent. Which is why diversity issues are commonly brought up by these groups and not by those that are already represented in media.

    I understand that you may not care about representation in Sims. But it's clear that others do. What do you gain by getting in the way of that?
    @Trashmagic it's not like there was no representation for POC in the Sims. It's more that some were just not satisfied with what it looked like and started calling EA racist for not meeting their demands and ignoring their requests, when EA ignores all requests from fans no matter if you're black, white etc.
    Only if the GameChangers request something they put it in the game. My 3-month old baby cannot represent itself accurately either.
    Where's my Sims 5 squad at?
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,735 Member
    drakharis wrote: »

    I hope this teaches EA a lesson that they need to bring back the colour wheel for humans and occults. If it can be done for pets then it should have been done for or sims. I'll admit my cats are my kids and I spoil them but why should I be able to have a pink and purple or rainbow cat in the sims but our African decent Simmers, Asian Simmers, Latino/Hispanic Simmers and all races and ethnicities don't have decent skin tones or decent ethnic and racial hairstyles?

    Sliders and presets are easy and take hardly any time to make.

    While I am not denying that a color wheel for Sims from the start would have gone a long way to solving this problem, I'm less sure it's something they can simply do at this point in the games development - and by "this point" I mean any point after release.

    I'm not sure of all the technical details, but adding a color wheel for sims at this point may very well break saves, or at the very least result in all sims in existing saves suddenly turning gray because the file data for how a sim's skin color is determined would be substantially changed - possibly requiring a significant modification to the database. So once they can work to prevent an onslaught of "my sims are Gray!" bug reports, then they may be able to introduce a color wheel.
  • Sim_ArchitectsSim_Architects Posts: 302 Member
    The only argument ive seen people make for why color wheel is impossible is because EA would have to actually put in a lot of effort to do that. So what?! :|
  • SimmerGeorgeSimmerGeorge Posts: 1,717 Member
    The only argument ive seen people make for why color wheel is impossible is because EA would have to actually put in a lot of effort to do that. So what?! :|

    @Sim_Architects I don't think this is what is being said. None of us obviously knows the limitations this game has, but it could be a very difficult thing to put in the game with the possibility of it breaking. If you look at Pets you can see that they were able to add the color wheel a lot easier since Pets did not exist before so there wasn't really anything to break. But with Sims however, they would have to redo important parts of the game. Maybe that could lead to saves breaking, nobody knows really. It could be that the colour wheel cannot be added this late in the game.
    Where's my Sims 5 squad at?
  • LordOfTendonsLordOfTendons Posts: 249 Member
    The only argument ive seen people make for why color wheel is impossible is because EA would have to actually put in a lot of effort to do that. So what?! :|

    @Sim_Architects I don't think this is what is being said. None of us obviously knows the limitations this game has, but it could be a very difficult thing to put in the game with the possibility of it breaking. If you look at Pets you can see that they were able to add the color wheel a lot easier since Pets did not exist before so there wasn't really anything to break. But with Sims however, they would have to redo important parts of the game. Maybe that could lead to saves breaking, nobody knows really. It could be that the colour wheel cannot be added this late in the game.

    Breaking something or making the game unplayable has never stopped them before. Why should a color wheel be any different?
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,459 Member
    The only argument ive seen people make for why color wheel is impossible is because EA would have to actually put in a lot of effort to do that. So what?! :|

    @Sim_Architects I don't think this is what is being said. None of us obviously knows the limitations this game has, but it could be a very difficult thing to put in the game with the possibility of it breaking. If you look at Pets you can see that they were able to add the color wheel a lot easier since Pets did not exist before so there wasn't really anything to break. But with Sims however, they would have to redo important parts of the game. Maybe that could lead to saves breaking, nobody knows really. It could be that the colour wheel cannot be added this late in the game.

    Breaking something or making the game unplayable has never stopped them before. Why should a color wheel be any different?
    Plus when we upgrade our computers we have to backup saves and pictures and CC and mods anyway. It isn't that hard to do especially with cloud saving now. As long as there is a backup save alert when we launch origin and Twitter announcement, should be fine. People should backup anyways with how much the game crashes even with video evidence with game changers.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • Sim_ArchitectsSim_Architects Posts: 302 Member
    The only argument ive seen people make for why color wheel is impossible is because EA would have to actually put in a lot of effort to do that. So what?! :|

    @Sim_Architects I don't think this is what is being said. None of us obviously knows the limitations this game has, but it could be a very difficult thing to put in the game with the possibility of it breaking. If you look at Pets you can see that they were able to add the color wheel a lot easier since Pets did not exist before so there wasn't really anything to break. But with Sims however, they would have to redo important parts of the game. Maybe that could lead to saves breaking, nobody knows really. It could be that the colour wheel cannot be added this late in the game.

    Breaking something or making the game unplayable has never stopped them before. Why should a color wheel be any different?

    Everytime they update something breaks.
  • SimmerGeorgeSimmerGeorge Posts: 1,717 Member
    @Sim_Architects @Scobre No I'm not talking about it breaking your game. I'm talking about breaking the game like the code.
    A game like the Sims is coded in a way that sometimes going back to change something can break all the rest. It's like a tower of cards. Once the foundation is done and you start building over it, you can't go back and change or the whole tower will fall apart. At least that's my guess with the little knowledge of coding I have
    Where's my Sims 5 squad at?
  • muzickmagemuzickmage Posts: 767 Member
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    Trashmagic wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for simply being unaware, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    You think black people are put on a pedestal? and white people are being shamed? Wow, White people must have a long history of oppression and being abused in this country, that is still ongoing to this day . White people must feel so bad that...black people are getting non ashy skintones.

    Look at all the likes for this tonedeaf, reverse reality comment. Such a shame. There are 50 european/straight hairstyles for a single textured hair in this game. How are we being treated better exactly? We have to beg for more stuff to represent black sims.

    Why does the sims have to represent black sims? Or any skin tone of ours? That's what i'm failing to understand. The need for the sims world to represent our way of life. How is it that the sims game is responsible for representing any of us in any way, whether it be skin tones, hair styles, or other ideas?

    Why do you need representation? Why do I? Why do any of us?

    Representations feels nice. There are many studies that cover the importance of representation in media and yes this includes Sims. One thing I remember is the term symbolic annihilation which is the idea that the less you see of yourself in media (your gender, your skintone, your sexual-orientation and such) the less important you feel. This affects marginalized groups to a greater extent. Which is why deversity issues are commonly brought up by these groups and not by those that are already represented in media.

    I understand that you may not care about representation in Sims. But it's clear that others do. What do you gain by getting in the way of that?

    A sims' fantasy world where I can escape the very argument this thread is having. I am very nervous about the new sims' world the is currently being built.

    You can still have whatever kind of world you want. You can change every sim in that world to fit your vision, and can find mods for the rest. Giving the player additional options doesn't take anything away from you, and letting someone else have a seat at the table too doesn't take your chair away. This metaphorical table is not constrained by size.

    Well, at least until EA/Maxis realizes that they can't possibly keep up with the demands of equality, and sims is gone forever due to inability to code all the demands of tomorrow.

    I agree. I am fine till then.

    I hope you don't think this is going to stop with new swatches. It's just a matter of time before EA/Maxis loses control of this new train ride.

    For now. We can all continue to debate the future of sims. Lets hope as well.... that there actually is a future of the sims.

    I don't think that this assertion that The Sims is going to be destroyed by an avalanche of demands made to placate "the other" is a helpful or realistic contribution to the discourse here.

    My assertion is... that one thing leads to another. And what we may all end up with is wishing that we spent more time inviting the sims into our world, and less time imposing our world onto the sims.

    But hey, in the meantime lets make sure we, as people, are all represented fairly, and equally in Brindleton Bay.
    Good luck to us all.

    So the slippery slope runs from enhanced gender options, to new dark skin tones, to something something Brindleton Bay, and then to the end of The Sims and, presumably, ourselves? Got it. I'll keep an eye out.

    Isn't that what we are discussing here. Equal rights as citizens of earth to be represented equally in the sims game? Doesn't that include Brindleton Bay?

    We should be talking about what Rights the "sims" have in the sims game. Not what Rights "we" have. Why are so many of you forgetting/or ignoring that the sims is a game about "sims". We are only playing god over these artificial beings. And as God of their little lives, we are what? Imposing our racial, cultural lives onto them.

    EA/Maxis should be limiting the sims to a sims world of fantasy, and leaving the politics of our daily lives out of it. Yes, i'm afraid this is going to get messy. In the long run, I really don't see all of this playing out to anyone's advantage. In the short term, sure, all looks like a great step forward. But down the road. I don't feel like we are heading somewhere positive.

    Sorry, but that's my opinion.

    Have you noticed that it's only ever "politics" when the characters and/or assets are related to people who aren't white? Weird, isn't it? It's like there are two ethnicities -- white and "political". It's also like there are two orientations -- straight and "political". Really makes you think doesn't it? At least, it should make you think.

    No, it's only about white vs politics when someone decides to divide these conversations into such. My arguments are based on encouraging the sims game to be neutral... which is much easier to code.

    Designing a CAS to make sure that we are all treated, and represented equally. That's a lot of code. Today it's about African American skin tones. What's next? According to this thread Indigineous people aren't fairly represented. Are Latino's being represented properly?

    What's after that?

    At the end of the day, it would be much simplier, and even more fair, to have the sims game simply remain.... the sims game. Have it designed with the sims having its own race. Its own culture, it's own religions. etc. And we can go back to inviting these ideas into our lives.... instead of what we are doing today.... forcing our lives onto the fantasy world of the sims.
  • Sim_ArchitectsSim_Architects Posts: 302 Member
    edited August 15
    Just for the record, a sims game is still a sims game, even if the skin tones aren’t ashy and even if black simmers get cuter hairstyles for our sims 😻👍🏽
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,459 Member
    @Sim_Architects @Scobre No I'm not talking about it breaking your game. I'm talking about breaking the game like the code.
    A game like the Sims is coded in a way that sometimes going back to change something can break all the rest. It's like a tower of cards. Once the foundation is done and you start building over it, you can't go back and change or the whole tower will fall apart. At least that's my guess with the little knowledge of coding I have
    I mean they did with the gender update too had to go back. Every patch and pack is going to break the game. That is why playtesters exist. I don't think it should prevent games from being made. Sims 4 is a live service like a MMO so things are going to break. I have no issues with bugs since I playtest and report them anyways. Even at work things break on me with the computers. It happens.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • NiaraTiaraNiaraTiara Posts: 110 Member
    drakharis wrote: »
    They failed to mention in order to create a Native American or Canada's First People or other races that simply don't exist unless you aren't opposed to using custom presets, custom sliders or don't mind spending extra time in CAS attempting to create the non-existent race in question. No race should be left out all.

    I repeat some races don't exist at all. This I interpret as blatant racism. Now I could be totally wrong and simply be misinterpreting something.

    I have to use custom head presets and use custom sliders to create a Native American sim. I shouldn't have to. This should already exist in the base game. It does not.

    I'm really sorry that you are experiencing the inability to create your own race in game. I myself am African American, and I had to rely on mods in order to have skintones without red blotches in game. So I understand your frustration!

    I'm wondering how it is that you cannot use the sliders to create your features. In my experience, there are already many hands on sliders that basically allow you to sculpt any lip, eyes, and nose you want. Do Native Americans have distinct features that don't have any sliders right now?

    Let there be Fairies! o:)
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,459 Member
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    Trashmagic wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for simply being unaware, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    You think black people are put on a pedestal? and white people are being shamed? Wow, White people must have a long history of oppression and being abused in this country, that is still ongoing to this day . White people must feel so bad that...black people are getting non ashy skintones.

    Look at all the likes for this tonedeaf, reverse reality comment. Such a shame. There are 50 european/straight hairstyles for a single textured hair in this game. How are we being treated better exactly? We have to beg for more stuff to represent black sims.

    Why does the sims have to represent black sims? Or any skin tone of ours? That's what i'm failing to understand. The need for the sims world to represent our way of life. How is it that the sims game is responsible for representing any of us in any way, whether it be skin tones, hair styles, or other ideas?

    Why do you need representation? Why do I? Why do any of us?

    Representations feels nice. There are many studies that cover the importance of representation in media and yes this includes Sims. One thing I remember is the term symbolic annihilation which is the idea that the less you see of yourself in media (your gender, your skintone, your sexual-orientation and such) the less important you feel. This affects marginalized groups to a greater extent. Which is why deversity issues are commonly brought up by these groups and not by those that are already represented in media.

    I understand that you may not care about representation in Sims. But it's clear that others do. What do you gain by getting in the way of that?

    A sims' fantasy world where I can escape the very argument this thread is having. I am very nervous about the new sims' world the is currently being built.

    You can still have whatever kind of world you want. You can change every sim in that world to fit your vision, and can find mods for the rest. Giving the player additional options doesn't take anything away from you, and letting someone else have a seat at the table too doesn't take your chair away. This metaphorical table is not constrained by size.

    Well, at least until EA/Maxis realizes that they can't possibly keep up with the demands of equality, and sims is gone forever due to inability to code all the demands of tomorrow.

    I agree. I am fine till then.

    I hope you don't think this is going to stop with new swatches. It's just a matter of time before EA/Maxis loses control of this new train ride.

    For now. We can all continue to debate the future of sims. Lets hope as well.... that there actually is a future of the sims.

    I don't think that this assertion that The Sims is going to be destroyed by an avalanche of demands made to placate "the other" is a helpful or realistic contribution to the discourse here.

    My assertion is... that one thing leads to another. And what we may all end up with is wishing that we spent more time inviting the sims into our world, and less time imposing our world onto the sims.

    But hey, in the meantime lets make sure we, as people, are all represented fairly, and equally in Brindleton Bay.
    Good luck to us all.

    So the slippery slope runs from enhanced gender options, to new dark skin tones, to something something Brindleton Bay, and then to the end of The Sims and, presumably, ourselves? Got it. I'll keep an eye out.

    Isn't that what we are discussing here. Equal rights as citizens of earth to be represented equally in the sims game? Doesn't that include Brindleton Bay?

    We should be talking about what Rights the "sims" have in the sims game. Not what Rights "we" have. Why are so many of you forgetting/or ignoring that the sims is a game about "sims". We are only playing god over these artificial beings. And as God of their little lives, we are what? Imposing our racial, cultural lives onto them.

    EA/Maxis should be limiting the sims to a sims world of fantasy, and leaving the politics of our daily lives out of it. Yes, i'm afraid this is going to get messy. In the long run, I really don't see all of this playing out to anyone's advantage. In the short term, sure, all looks like a great step forward. But down the road. I don't feel like we are heading somewhere positive.

    Sorry, but that's my opinion.

    Have you noticed that it's only ever "politics" when the characters and/or assets are related to people who aren't white? Weird, isn't it? It's like there are two ethnicities -- white and "political". It's also like there are two orientations -- straight and "political". Really makes you think doesn't it? At least, it should make you think.

    No, it's only about white vs politics when someone decides to divide these conversations into such. My arguments are based on encouraging the sims game to be neutral... which is much easier to code.

    Designing a CAS to make sure that we are all treated, and represented equally. That's a lot of code. Today it's about African American skin tones. What's next? According to this thread Indigineous people aren't fairly represented. Are Latino's being represented properly?

    What's after that?

    At the end of the day, it would be much simplier, and even more fair, to have the sims game simply remain.... the sims game. Have it designed with the sims having its own race. Its own culture, it's own religions. etc. And we can go back to inviting these ideas into our lives.... instead of what we are doing today.... forcing our lives onto the fantasy world of the sims.
    Well there is always Animal Crossing if you want to play a less realistic game too with animals and no races or ages or genders. That way you can play the child safe role playing game that doesn't represent anyone. But even that game is more inclusive with culture and probably why the Gurus prefer playing it lately. Culture makes people happy and keep people entertained. The Gurus are Latino and African American and Asian American and come from all over the world, so if that bothers you go tell them how much you dislike their cultures and don't want them represented in the game either. It is like when people complained when toddlers were requested and Gurus had toddlers of their own. Some of the Gurus want stuff just as much as we do and are Simmers too. Sometimes I wonder if even with the Gurus there is bias of how many "fans" are following them on Twitter. I remember SimGuruAzure was one of the first Gurus to welcome me on forums.

    So yes I want a color wheel so I can make the Simpsons, the Muppets, and real people. I am a hybrid player. Not interested in the single wing nonsense that makes people flightless birds. Sorry you see the world in colorless lenses like my dog sees the world. I see it in colors. Jungle Adventure did give us some hot Latinos I really enjoy having Sims woohoo with.

    I still don't understand why the Sims 4 is the first iteration that people don't want new content for. They really should have just made a Sims Medieval sequel to keep laptop players happy with and left the main franchise for desktop PC and console players. Limiting the main series for outdated laptops was one of the worst decisions. I hope they bring back side game next iteration so those that want limited content can have a RPG only game and leave the Sims in its hybrid focus again. Sims 4 is doing rpg poorly too with lack of supernatural which is funny. All playstyles are losing. They really shouldn't have attempted that MMO route with the Sims 4 either. MMO engine is limiting the game a lot when they ditched online play last minute. So yes inclusivity is going to happen and with many Gurus supportive of BLM I doubt it will stop with one minority. Thanks to SimGuruRusski and others we got Latinos.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • CAPTAIN_NXR7CAPTAIN_NXR7 Posts: 2,002 Member
    edited August 15
    @Scobre wrote: »
    @Sim_Architects @Scobre No I'm not talking about it breaking your game. I'm talking about breaking the game like the code.
    A game like the Sims is coded in a way that sometimes going back to change something can break all the rest. It's like a tower of cards. Once the foundation is done and you start building over it, you can't go back and change or the whole tower will fall apart. At least that's my guess with the little knowledge of coding I have
    I mean they did with the gender update too had to go back. Every patch and pack is going to break the game. That is why playtesters exist. I don't think it should prevent games from being made. Sims 4 is a live service like a MMO so things are going to break. I have no issues with bugs since I playtest and report them anyways. Even at work things break on me with the computers. It happens.

    Sure, but adding a colourwheel is a whole different kind of animal. They will basically need to re-design the whole CAS user experience and interface. A lot of thought needs to go into where and how a colourwheel will be added ( skin, hair, clothing, or only skin?), how the player will utilize it and whether or not the CW is going to replace all the swatches or add to the existing presets.

    Also, if it’s going to be inspired by Create a Pet’s UI / UX- which I feel is the most useful design- the challenges become even greater since the CAS tool we currently have is pretty established. Players will need to learn how to use a new tool in a new interface. It’s impossible to work exactly like Create a Pet, since there are many more layer menus on a sim than on a pet, so compared to something like this, the gender update was rather minimal.

    It’s very possible though, however, depending on how many more years this iteration is going to last, I’m not sure if the team wants to use all their resources on re-designing CAS for TS4, or keep it in mind for the next title and instead just add swatches and work on other updates and DLC.

    It’s inevitable that a substantial amount of stuff will break after a huge UI update like that.
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,459 Member
    @Scobre wrote: »
    @Sim_Architects @Scobre No I'm not talking about it breaking your game. I'm talking about breaking the game like the code.
    A game like the Sims is coded in a way that sometimes going back to change something can break all the rest. It's like a tower of cards. Once the foundation is done and you start building over it, you can't go back and change or the whole tower will fall apart. At least that's my guess with the little knowledge of coding I have
    I mean they did with the gender update too had to go back. Every patch and pack is going to break the game. That is why playtesters exist. I don't think it should prevent games from being made. Sims 4 is a live service like a MMO so things are going to break. I have no issues with bugs since I playtest and report them anyways. Even at work things break on me with the computers. It happens.

    Sure, but adding a colourwheel is a whole different kind of animal. They will basically need to re-design the whole CAS user experience and interface. A lot of thought needs to go into where and how a colourwheel will be added ( skin, hair, clothing, or only skin?), how the player will utilize it and whether or not the CW is going to replace all the swatches or add to the existing presets.

    Also, if it’s going to be inspired by Create a Pet’s UI / UX- which I feel is the most useful design- the challenges become even greater since the CAS tool we currently have is pretty established. Players will need to learn how to use a new tool in a new interface. It’s impossible to work exactly like Create a Pet, since there are many more layer menus on a sim than on a pet, so compared to something like this, the gender update was rather minimal.

    It’s very possible though, however, depending on how many more years this iteration is going to last, I’m not sure if the team wants to use all their resources on re-designing CAS for TS4, or keep it in mind for the next title and instead just add swatches and work on other updates and DLC.

    It’s inevitable that a substantial amount of stuff will break after a huge UI update like that.
    Adding swatches is tough work too and connects to UI. We have had many swatches not colored the right color or the swatch itself is the wrong color. It takes a lot of artwork and UI work to implement. I have made my own colors for hairs myself and the amount of testing for each swatch is a lot more work than people realize. I have had my own swatches break with patches. But it is nice Paralives has it.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • muzickmagemuzickmage Posts: 767 Member
    edited August 15
    Scobre wrote: »
    @Scobre wrote: »
    @Sim_Architects @Scobre No I'm not talking about it breaking your game. I'm talking about breaking the game like the code.
    A game like the Sims is coded in a way that sometimes going back to change something can break all the rest. It's like a tower of cards. Once the foundation is done and you start building over it, you can't go back and change or the whole tower will fall apart. At least that's my guess with the little knowledge of coding I have
    I mean they did with the gender update too had to go back. Every patch and pack is going to break the game. That is why playtesters exist. I don't think it should prevent games from being made. Sims 4 is a live service like a MMO so things are going to break. I have no issues with bugs since I playtest and report them anyways. Even at work things break on me with the computers. It happens.

    Sure, but adding a colourwheel is a whole different kind of animal. They will basically need to re-design the whole CAS user experience and interface. A lot of thought needs to go into where and how a colourwheel will be added ( skin, hair, clothing, or only skin?), how the player will utilize it and whether or not the CW is going to replace all the swatches or add to the existing presets.

    Also, if it’s going to be inspired by Create a Pet’s UI / UX- which I feel is the most useful design- the challenges become even greater since the CAS tool we currently have is pretty established. Players will need to learn how to use a new tool in a new interface. It’s impossible to work exactly like Create a Pet, since there are many more layer menus on a sim than on a pet, so compared to something like this, the gender update was rather minimal.

    It’s very possible though, however, depending on how many more years this iteration is going to last, I’m not sure if the team wants to use all their resources on re-designing CAS for TS4, or keep it in mind for the next title and instead just add swatches and work on other updates and DLC.

    It’s inevitable that a substantial amount of stuff will break after a huge UI update like that.
    Adding swatches is tough work too and connects to UI. We have had many swatches not colored the right color or the swatch itself is the wrong color. It takes a lot of artwork and UI work to implement. I have made my own colors for hairs myself and the amount of testing for each swatch is a lot more work than people realize. I have had my own swatches break with patches. But it is nice Paralives has it.

    Well, what a perfect opportunity to offer you your own advice. You can always go and play with the future of paralives. And as you suggested, I'll go play animal crossing.

    Fair enough then, it's all settled.
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 7,509 Member
    So_Money wrote: »
    mika wrote: »
    So_Money wrote: »
    I model my main save after golden age sitcoms (50’s, 60’s, 70’s) and the fictional suburbias of yesteryear. There aren’t many black families in my worlds. Does that make me ... racist? Just checking because if so I should probably inform my wife and daughter.

    You can do whatever you want in your game but there were tons of Black families in 50s-70s so Idk why you mentioned that as if it wouldnt be accurate for Black people to be in that time. I mean, maybe we weren't living amongst white families due to segregation, but fortunately the Sims world never had a racist history...

    he was talking about tv shows

    Thank you. I thought that post by @mika was a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what I was saying. The fact that I was talking about fictional TV shows is a rather important and obvious distinction to miss. And yet two people clicked “awesome”. SMH.

    your welcome @so_money
    the sims 4 isn't getting new whims right now and I think they have dropped them all together if we want new whims in sims 4 we need to tweet the gurus and tell them we like whims
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 7,509 Member
    edited August 15
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for it, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    I hate that this all encourages a racial divide.... like its an "us vs them" kind of thing.

    IMO, EA/Maxis walked themselves into a difficult position to get back out of. I hope they don't think this will all go away soon because they are updating CAS with new color swatches. There will likely be more demands of equality rising up. They allowed the door to be opened, its too late to shut the door again now.

    I wonder if they regret yet not adding the color wheel to TS4. If they gave us at least the same options for creating sims as they did for creating pets... the lack of skin tones wouldn't be an issue.

    That's exactly what this encourages. Already Kate has attempted to shame white Simmers for supposedly not watching enough colored creators. Representation is an impractical goal to strive for in your game that must include not only gameplay content that would satisfy at least most Simmers, but content that would represent potentially all people in the world. For the developers, that has to be incredibly difficult.

    Now of course, if it was actually possible to achieve this, pffft. Go for it, I say. Personally, I would love to play a blind/deaf/physically disabled Sim as I think that could entail some very interesting story-telling. But I completely understand if that's hard at the moment from a developmental point of view since there would be much in the way of coding, animating, etc to be done just to achieve even one of those.

    ...Heh. This brings to mind that unusual "Play With Life" video The Sims YouTube channel released almost a year ago where they attempted to elevate the game into more than what it really was.

    This term can be considered offensive. I'd advise you to research it if you're interested.

    @AHolyToilet is black I think they can say whatever they want @simgirl1010
    the sims 4 isn't getting new whims right now and I think they have dropped them all together if we want new whims in sims 4 we need to tweet the gurus and tell them we like whims
  • Sim_ArchitectsSim_Architects Posts: 302 Member
    Scobre wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    Trashmagic wrote: »
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for simply being unaware, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    You think black people are put on a pedestal? and white people are being shamed? Wow, White people must have a long history of oppression and being abused in this country, that is still ongoing to this day . White people must feel so bad that...black people are getting non ashy skintones.

    Look at all the likes for this tonedeaf, reverse reality comment. Such a shame. There are 50 european/straight hairstyles for a single textured hair in this game. How are we being treated better exactly? We have to beg for more stuff to represent black sims.

    Why does the sims have to represent black sims? Or any skin tone of ours? That's what i'm failing to understand. The need for the sims world to represent our way of life. How is it that the sims game is responsible for representing any of us in any way, whether it be skin tones, hair styles, or other ideas?

    Why do you need representation? Why do I? Why do any of us?

    Representations feels nice. There are many studies that cover the importance of representation in media and yes this includes Sims. One thing I remember is the term symbolic annihilation which is the idea that the less you see of yourself in media (your gender, your skintone, your sexual-orientation and such) the less important you feel. This affects marginalized groups to a greater extent. Which is why deversity issues are commonly brought up by these groups and not by those that are already represented in media.

    I understand that you may not care about representation in Sims. But it's clear that others do. What do you gain by getting in the way of that?

    A sims' fantasy world where I can escape the very argument this thread is having. I am very nervous about the new sims' world the is currently being built.

    You can still have whatever kind of world you want. You can change every sim in that world to fit your vision, and can find mods for the rest. Giving the player additional options doesn't take anything away from you, and letting someone else have a seat at the table too doesn't take your chair away. This metaphorical table is not constrained by size.

    Well, at least until EA/Maxis realizes that they can't possibly keep up with the demands of equality, and sims is gone forever due to inability to code all the demands of tomorrow.

    I agree. I am fine till then.

    I hope you don't think this is going to stop with new swatches. It's just a matter of time before EA/Maxis loses control of this new train ride.

    For now. We can all continue to debate the future of sims. Lets hope as well.... that there actually is a future of the sims.

    I don't think that this assertion that The Sims is going to be destroyed by an avalanche of demands made to placate "the other" is a helpful or realistic contribution to the discourse here.

    My assertion is... that one thing leads to another. And what we may all end up with is wishing that we spent more time inviting the sims into our world, and less time imposing our world onto the sims.

    But hey, in the meantime lets make sure we, as people, are all represented fairly, and equally in Brindleton Bay.
    Good luck to us all.

    So the slippery slope runs from enhanced gender options, to new dark skin tones, to something something Brindleton Bay, and then to the end of The Sims and, presumably, ourselves? Got it. I'll keep an eye out.

    Isn't that what we are discussing here. Equal rights as citizens of earth to be represented equally in the sims game? Doesn't that include Brindleton Bay?

    We should be talking about what Rights the "sims" have in the sims game. Not what Rights "we" have. Why are so many of you forgetting/or ignoring that the sims is a game about "sims". We are only playing god over these artificial beings. And as God of their little lives, we are what? Imposing our racial, cultural lives onto them.

    EA/Maxis should be limiting the sims to a sims world of fantasy, and leaving the politics of our daily lives out of it. Yes, i'm afraid this is going to get messy. In the long run, I really don't see all of this playing out to anyone's advantage. In the short term, sure, all looks like a great step forward. But down the road. I don't feel like we are heading somewhere positive.

    Sorry, but that's my opinion.

    Have you noticed that it's only ever "politics" when the characters and/or assets are related to people who aren't white? Weird, isn't it? It's like there are two ethnicities -- white and "political". It's also like there are two orientations -- straight and "political". Really makes you think doesn't it? At least, it should make you think.

    No, it's only about white vs politics when someone decides to divide these conversations into such. My arguments are based on encouraging the sims game to be neutral... which is much easier to code.

    Designing a CAS to make sure that we are all treated, and represented equally. That's a lot of code. Today it's about African American skin tones. What's next? According to this thread Indigineous people aren't fairly represented. Are Latino's being represented properly?

    What's after that?

    At the end of the day, it would be much simplier, and even more fair, to have the sims game simply remain.... the sims game. Have it designed with the sims having its own race. Its own culture, it's own religions. etc. And we can go back to inviting these ideas into our lives.... instead of what we are doing today.... forcing our lives onto the fantasy world of the sims.
    Well there is always Animal Crossing if you want to play a less realistic game too with animals and no races or ages or genders. That way you can play the child safe role playing game that doesn't represent anyone. But even that game is more inclusive with culture and probably why the Gurus prefer playing it lately. Culture makes people happy and keep people entertained. The Gurus are Latino and African American and Asian American and come from all over the world, so if that bothers you go tell them how much you dislike their cultures and don't want them represented in the game either. It is like when people complained when toddlers were requested and Gurus had toddlers of their own. Some of the Gurus want stuff just as much as we do and are Simmers too. Sometimes I wonder if even with the Gurus there is bias of how many "fans" are following them on Twitter. I remember SimGuruAzure was one of the first Gurus to welcome me on forums.

    So yes I want a color wheel so I can make the Simpsons, the Muppets, and real people. I am a hybrid player. Not interested in the single wing nonsense that makes people flightless birds. Sorry you see the world in colorless lenses like my dog sees the world. I see it in colors. Jungle Adventure did give us some hot Latinos I really enjoy having Sims woohoo with.

    I still don't understand why the Sims 4 is the first iteration that people don't want new content for. They really should have just made a Sims Medieval sequel to keep laptop players happy with and left the main franchise for desktop PC and console players. Limiting the main series for outdated laptops was one of the worst decisions. I hope they bring back side game next iteration so those that want limited content can have a RPG only game and leave the Sims in its hybrid focus again. Sims 4 is doing rpg poorly too with lack of supernatural which is funny. All playstyles are losing. They really shouldn't have attempted that MMO route with the Sims 4 either. MMO engine is limiting the game a lot when they ditched online play last minute. So yes inclusivity is going to happen and with many Gurus supportive of BLM I doubt it will stop with one minority. Thanks to SimGuruRusski and others we got Latinos.

    😁 see this I agree with 🔥 thanks for getting it! @Scobre the Sims is the place for people to see themselves in their characters. I wouldn’t want to see through the eyes of a dog either 🐶 lmao 🤣



  • Sim_ArchitectsSim_Architects Posts: 302 Member
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for it, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    I hate that this all encourages a racial divide.... like its an "us vs them" kind of thing.

    IMO, EA/Maxis walked themselves into a difficult position to get back out of. I hope they don't think this will all go away soon because they are updating CAS with new color swatches. There will likely be more demands of equality rising up. They allowed the door to be opened, its too late to shut the door again now.

    I wonder if they regret yet not adding the color wheel to TS4. If they gave us at least the same options for creating sims as they did for creating pets... the lack of skin tones wouldn't be an issue.

    That's exactly what this encourages. Already Kate has attempted to shame white Simmers for supposedly not watching enough colored creators. Representation is an impractical goal to strive for in your game that must include not only gameplay content that would satisfy at least most Simmers, but content that would represent potentially all people in the world. For the developers, that has to be incredibly difficult.

    Now of course, if it was actually possible to achieve this, pffft. Go for it, I say. Personally, I would love to play a blind/deaf/physically disabled Sim as I think that could entail some very interesting story-telling. But I completely understand if that's hard at the moment from a developmental point of view since there would be much in the way of coding, animating, etc to be done just to achieve even one of those.

    ...Heh. This brings to mind that unusual "Play With Life" video The Sims YouTube channel released almost a year ago where they attempted to elevate the game into more than what it really was.

    This term can be considered offensive. I'd advise you to research it if you're interested.

    @AHolyToilet is black I think they can say whatever they want @simgirl1010

    There’s no telling on the internet . But I don’t know any Black people that would think that asking for more inclusiveness is somehow infringing on the rights of white people. And again a lot of black people suffer from self hate.

  • SimmerGeorgeSimmerGeorge Posts: 1,717 Member
    EA has included POC in the Sims 4 since day one. It's the skin tones that a good number, but not all, people didn't like because they were not "believable" enough.
    Also none of the hair of any colour and style looks "believable" either. I don't think it's just the skin tones. I'm glad they are making better ones but let's not act like EA wasn't inclusive of black people since the beginning.
    Where's my Sims 5 squad at?
  • AHolyToiletAHolyToilet Posts: 870 Member
    edited August 15
    muzickmage wrote: »
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for it, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    I hate that this all encourages a racial divide.... like its an "us vs them" kind of thing.

    IMO, EA/Maxis walked themselves into a difficult position to get back out of. I hope they don't think this will all go away soon because they are updating CAS with new color swatches. There will likely be more demands of equality rising up. They allowed the door to be opened, its too late to shut the door again now.

    I wonder if they regret yet not adding the color wheel to TS4. If they gave us at least the same options for creating sims as they did for creating pets... the lack of skin tones wouldn't be an issue.

    That's exactly what this encourages. Already Kate has attempted to shame white Simmers for supposedly not watching enough colored creators. Representation is an impractical goal to strive for in your game that must include not only gameplay content that would satisfy at least most Simmers, but content that would represent potentially all people in the world. For the developers, that has to be incredibly difficult.

    Now of course, if it was actually possible to achieve this, pffft. Go for it, I say. Personally, I would love to play a blind/deaf/physically disabled Sim as I think that could entail some very interesting story-telling. But I completely understand if that's hard at the moment from a developmental point of view since there would be much in the way of coding, animating, etc to be done just to achieve even one of those.

    ...Heh. This brings to mind that unusual "Play With Life" video The Sims YouTube channel released almost a year ago where they attempted to elevate the game into more than what it really was.

    This term can be considered offensive. I'd advise you to research it if you're interested.

    @AHolyToilet is black I think they can say whatever they want @simgirl1010

    There’s no telling on the internet . But I don’t know any Black people that would think that asking for more inclusiveness is somehow infringing on the rights of white people. And again a lot of black people suffer from self hate.

    ...I was busy writing out a response to you since you seem to have grossly misunderstood my stance, then I saw this. This, combined with everything from you I saw that got deleted, is making me doubt I should respond at all. How honestly appalling, that I might hate myself because I disagree with you.
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 7,509 Member
    EA has included POC in the Sims 4 since day one. It's the skin tones that a good number, but not all, people didn't like because they were not "believable" enough.
    Also none of the hair of any colour and style looks "believable" either. I don't think it's just the skin tones. I'm glad they are making better ones but let's not act like EA wasn't inclusive of black people since the beginning.

    they have always had more then other games and the more stuff we get the better just more for us all to enjoy
    the sims 4 isn't getting new whims right now and I think they have dropped them all together if we want new whims in sims 4 we need to tweet the gurus and tell them we like whims
  • StrawberryYogurtStrawberryYogurt Posts: 1,673 Member
    edited August 15

    ...I was busy writing out a response to you since you seem to have grossly misunderstood my stance, then I saw this. This, combined with everything from you I saw that got deleted, is making me doubt I should respond at all. How honestly appalling, that I might hate myself because I disagree with you.

    The ignore feature works wonders. Will save you many headaches.
    The Sims has currently lost its identity. #FixThePersonalities

    FixedCoarseFawn-max-1mb.gif

    Please bring it back.Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
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