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Blatant racism vs Covert Racism that sadly and upsetting seems to exist in the sims

Comments

  • SimmerGeorgeSimmerGeorge Posts: 1,698 Member
    j1z1 wrote: »
    j1z1 wrote: »
    SheriSim57 wrote: »
    j1z1 wrote: »
    I think it's dangerous to still think racism only manifests itself in the form of conscious hatred when it's something that has been ingrained into us to the point we don't notice it. Unintentional exclusion is a sympton of it. It doesn't make one hateful, but it does take an active effort to acknowkedge and remedy. Not believing you're superior doesn't keep you from engaging in small actions that may seem harmless but amount to a lot, especially within a specific historical context.

    Well, I am coming from the definition of racism. Which means you believe another race is inferior to your own. Of course we are all going to say or do something that others are going to interpret as racist..,,,, it doesn’t matter what race you are. I’m mostly English and German American. My husband was Mexicsn American, one of my daughters is engaged to a boy who is half Black and half Caucasian ( sorry I don’t know the exact countries of origin.). I live more around my husbands family and although my husband passed away years ago, I am closer to more members of his family than I am my own and care for them just like they were flesh and blood. Believe me I have seen my fair share of racist comments from both Mexicsn Americans and Caucasians. Of course it would be nice to have more inclusion in the sims, but it’s a game and it’s not going to have everything. It’s still missing real babies and cars!

    Yeah, I'm going by that definition too. I'm just saying it has many ways of manifesting itself and not all of them are conscious, deliberate or violent, but still have consequences that people who are not at the end of it can easily overlook.

    Well then everyone is at least a little racist because I bet with all of you, you all have accidentally exluded or overlooked at least one race, sexual orientation etc. in your game. So nobody is innocent.
    Also exlusion is not nessecarily always based on the belief that one is inferior. Like you said sometimes it's accidental because we tend to create sims that feel familiar to us.

    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. How could we not be? It's been drilled into us very subtly for forever. Even with the best intentions, we unkowingly develop a notion of a "standard" and wind up otherizing, which doesn't sound like much, but like I said, amounts to hard consequences.

    And ok, you may be as exclusive or conservative as you want in your game, that's you as a person and your game is only for you, but the game itself has to allow for its costumers.

    @j1z1 If you think this is possible to implement in a video game without excluding anyone the sure. I'm with you.
    But no race, sexual orientation, religion, disability etc. should be excluded.
    Personally I think this is very very difficult.
    Where's my Sims 5 squad at?
  • So_MoneySo_Money Posts: 2,523 Member
    edited August 14
    I model my main save after golden age sitcoms (50’s, 60’s, 70’s) and the fictional suburbias of yesteryear. There aren’t many black families in my worlds. Does that make me ... racist? Just checking because if so I should probably inform my wife and daughter.
  • j1z1j1z1 Posts: 290 Member
    j1z1 wrote: »
    j1z1 wrote: »
    SheriSim57 wrote: »
    j1z1 wrote: »
    I think it's dangerous to still think racism only manifests itself in the form of conscious hatred when it's something that has been ingrained into us to the point we don't notice it. Unintentional exclusion is a sympton of it. It doesn't make one hateful, but it does take an active effort to acknowkedge and remedy. Not believing you're superior doesn't keep you from engaging in small actions that may seem harmless but amount to a lot, especially within a specific historical context.

    Well, I am coming from the definition of racism. Which means you believe another race is inferior to your own. Of course we are all going to say or do something that others are going to interpret as racist..,,,, it doesn’t matter what race you are. I’m mostly English and German American. My husband was Mexicsn American, one of my daughters is engaged to a boy who is half Black and half Caucasian ( sorry I don’t know the exact countries of origin.). I live more around my husbands family and although my husband passed away years ago, I am closer to more members of his family than I am my own and care for them just like they were flesh and blood. Believe me I have seen my fair share of racist comments from both Mexicsn Americans and Caucasians. Of course it would be nice to have more inclusion in the sims, but it’s a game and it’s not going to have everything. It’s still missing real babies and cars!

    Yeah, I'm going by that definition too. I'm just saying it has many ways of manifesting itself and not all of them are conscious, deliberate or violent, but still have consequences that people who are not at the end of it can easily overlook.

    Well then everyone is at least a little racist because I bet with all of you, you all have accidentally exluded or overlooked at least one race, sexual orientation etc. in your game. So nobody is innocent.
    Also exlusion is not nessecarily always based on the belief that one is inferior. Like you said sometimes it's accidental because we tend to create sims that feel familiar to us.

    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. How could we not be? It's been drilled into us very subtly for forever. Even with the best intentions, we unkowingly develop a notion of a "standard" and wind up otherizing, which doesn't sound like much, but like I said, amounts to hard consequences.

    And ok, you may be as exclusive or conservative as you want in your game, that's you as a person and your game is only for you, but the game itself has to allow for its costumers.

    @j1z1 If you think this is possible to implement in a video game without excluding anyone the sure. I'm with you.
    But no race, sexual orientation, religion, disability etc. should be excluded.
    Personally I think this is very very difficult.

    The game will keep getting updates, it's worth trying, nothing wrong with asking.
  • CAPTAIN_NXR7CAPTAIN_NXR7 Posts: 1,996 Member
    @j1z1 If you think this is possible to implement in a video game without excluding anyone the sure. I'm with you.
    But no race, sexual orientation, religion, disability etc. should be excluded.
    Personally I think this is very very difficult.
    j1z1 wrote: »
    The game will keep getting updates, it's worth trying, nothing wrong with asking.

    We already have that game. It’s quite pricey too. It’s called “Real Life”.
  • EllupelluelluEllupelluellu Posts: 1,018 Member
    edited August 14

    We already have that game. It’s quite pricey too. It’s called “Real Life”.

    I sometimes hope i could uninstall that game. Or at least do a factory reset :)

    Those who have seen your face, draw back in fear.
    I am the mask you wear, it's me they hear.
    My spirit and your voice, In one combined.
    The Phantom of the Opera is there... Inside your mind..
  • AHolyToiletAHolyToilet Posts: 870 Member
    So_Money wrote: »
    I model my main save after golden age sitcoms (50’s, 60’s, 70’s) and the fictional suburbias of yesteryear. There aren’t many black families in my worlds. Does that make me ... racist? Just checking because if so I should probably inform my wife and daughter.

    Well, I'm black and this only gave me a chuckle. :P ...And an idea. While this isn't from those time periods, I should recreate the Golden Girls. That could be fun.
  • bookish_sammybookish_sammy Posts: 78 Member
    @drakharis Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you mean now. Yes, the presets are fairly limited. I agree that the team needs to involve other people. It would be awesome if they brought in some of the custom content creators who are known for creating diversity mods and CC. There are so many talented people in our community.
  • GordyGordy Posts: 1,401 Member

    We already have that game. It’s quite pricey too. It’s called “Real Life”.
    Too many microtransactions.
  • So_MoneySo_Money Posts: 2,523 Member
    So_Money wrote: »
    I model my main save after golden age sitcoms (50’s, 60’s, 70’s) and the fictional suburbias of yesteryear. There aren’t many black families in my worlds. Does that make me ... racist? Just checking because if so I should probably inform my wife and daughter.

    Well, I'm black and this only gave me a chuckle. :P ...And an idea. While this isn't from those time periods, I should recreate the Golden Girls. That could be fun.

    Not gonna lie, I have long considered a Golden Girls save. If only there was more for elders to do in the game.
  • EllupelluelluEllupelluellu Posts: 1,018 Member
    Gordy wrote: »

    We already have that game. It’s quite pricey too. It’s called “Real Life”.
    Too many microtransactions.

    And no dragons :)
    Those who have seen your face, draw back in fear.
    I am the mask you wear, it's me they hear.
    My spirit and your voice, In one combined.
    The Phantom of the Opera is there... Inside your mind..
  • RouensimsRouensims Posts: 3,200 Member
    FYI for those debating with the definition of racism: The definition is being changed.
    https://www.startribune.com/what-s-the-definition-of-racism-it-s-being-revised-at-merriam-webster/571292722/
    Ooh Be Gah!! Whipna Choba-Dog? Whipna Choba-Dog!! :smiley:
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,453 Member
    edited August 15
    I know SimGuruKate shared this which I don't agree with completely. I just agree with her saying it has been a problem for years because it has.


    I also think it is good someone pointed out how all the skintones have patchy issues with them. I notice it a lot with the babies too which have an even more limited skin selection. So I wouldn't mind seeing the skin tones revamped and babies redone because it does effect gameplay and storytelling for those that do play this iteration. For someone playing the Sims 3, there is a lot more freedom in colors and tattoos and body hair and piercings.

    Color wheel does optimize well in the Sims 4. Cats and Dogs color wheel and stamp system works great. Does it require going back and fixing packs? Yes it does. It isn't going to be easy but inclusion with LGBTQIA+ update wasn't either and look how many customers it brought into the community. Same with toddlers. Inclusion is important period whether it is age, race, gender, social class, or family type. I work for the government too.

    @So_Money Nah you are making stories and enjoy playing with your Barbies. When I was referring to racism is I was being called racist by someone who insulted every nationality of my family and friends I have known since childhood and putting down women and LGBTQIA+ in the most stereotypical way in every topic about inclusion so it just didn't make sense when they should have been looking in the mirror and checking the sty in their own eye. They kept making it personal couldn't separate reality from the game. They became their own worst enemy and lost friendships including mine. We just want tools available for those that want to use them that's all. Like some people playing supernaturals and others not. Sims community is diverse and there was an interview that SimGuruNinja did recently that was so good talking about wanting inclusion in the game. Might not make a difference in the Sims 4, but hopefully paves for more tools in future Sims games for not only me, but my family members as well. I just love my family too.

    I want inclusion in other ways too like babies and toddlers and elders and disabilities. I am just for the underdog, that's all. I do hope that you share your stories. What I miss most about the family play thread was seeing the diverse array of families of all types.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • LordOfTendonsLordOfTendons Posts: 249 Member
    j1z1 wrote: »
    SheriSim57 wrote: »
    j1z1 wrote: »
    I think it's dangerous to still think racism only manifests itself in the form of conscious hatred when it's something that has been ingrained into us to the point we don't notice it. Unintentional exclusion is a sympton of it. It doesn't make one hateful, but it does take an active effort to acknowkedge and remedy. Not believing you're superior doesn't keep you from engaging in small actions that may seem harmless but amount to a lot, especially within a specific historical context.

    Well, I am coming from the definition of racism. Which means you believe another race is inferior to your own. Of course we are all going to say or do something that others are going to interpret as racist..,,,, it doesn’t matter what race you are. I’m mostly English and German American. My husband was Mexicsn American, one of my daughters is engaged to a boy who is half Black and half Caucasian ( sorry I don’t know the exact countries of origin.). I live more around my husbands family and although my husband passed away years ago, I am closer to more members of his family than I am my own and care for them just like they were flesh and blood. Believe me I have seen my fair share of racist comments from both Mexicsn Americans and Caucasians. Of course it would be nice to have more inclusion in the sims, but it’s a game and it’s not going to have everything. It’s still missing real babies and cars!

    Yeah, I'm going by that definition too. I'm just saying it has many ways of manifesting itself and not all of them are conscious, deliberate or violent, but still have consequences that people who are not at the end of it can easily overlook.

    Well then everyone is at least a little racist because I bet with all of you, you all have accidentally exluded or overlooked at least one race, sexual orientation etc. in your game. So nobody is innocent.
    Also exlusion is not nessecarily always based on the belief that one is inferior. Like you said sometimes it's accidental because we tend to create sims that feel familiar to us.

    I'm not sure I understand why anyone worries about what's in anyone else's game. I mean unless they're posting pictures on some forum I frequent, it's not like they're making me look at it or participate in it.
  • mannannamannanna Posts: 440 Member
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.
  • So_MoneySo_Money Posts: 2,523 Member
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I mean, it’s been six years and this has gone unaddressed, but suddenly now that there’s some social media heat on the team they’re going to get on their soapbox and lecture us about it?

    Nah, that ain’t it.
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 7,496 Member
    Gordy wrote: »

    We already have that game. It’s quite pricey too. It’s called “Real Life”.
    Too many microtransactions.

    agreed
    the sims 4 isn't getting new whims right now and I think they have dropped them all together if we want new whims in sims 4 we need to tweet the gurus and tell them we like whims
  • AHolyToiletAHolyToilet Posts: 870 Member
    edited August 15
    So_Money wrote: »
    So_Money wrote: »
    I model my main save after golden age sitcoms (50’s, 60’s, 70’s) and the fictional suburbias of yesteryear. There aren’t many black families in my worlds. Does that make me ... racist? Just checking because if so I should probably inform my wife and daughter.

    Well, I'm black and this only gave me a chuckle. :P ...And an idea. While this isn't from those time periods, I should recreate the Golden Girls. That could be fun.

    Not gonna lie, I have long considered a Golden Girls save. If only there was more for elders to do in the game.

    I've considered this as well. I've thought about making them Adults instead since I don't like the way Elders hunch over since none of the Golden Girls did that. I'll have to see if there's any CC that adds a more aged appearance to adult Sims. Really, it would be the hardest part of making them.
  • muzickmagemuzickmage Posts: 767 Member
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.

    I'm frankly getting tired of my race being put on a pedastal and white people being shamed for it, especially for something as minor as skintones in a videogame. I find her post quite annoying. Besides, as the above points out, Kate's being rather hypocritical.

    EDIT: Assuming she didn't know in the past either.

    I hate that this all encourages a racial divide.... like its an "us vs them" kind of thing.

    IMO, EA/Maxis walked themselves into a difficult position to get back out of. I hope they don't think this will all go away soon because they are updating CAS with new color swatches. There will likely be more demands of equality rising up. They allowed the door to be opened, its too late to shut the door again now.

    I wonder if they regret yet not adding the color wheel to TS4. If they gave us at least the same options for creating sims as they did for creating pets... the lack of skin tones wouldn't be an issue.
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,453 Member
    mannanna wrote: »
    All I can say about SimGuruKate's twitter post is wow. I do know Sims is an American game and reflects on USA more than any other country, but to say it is bad white people weren't aware? Is she talking about her fellow Americans or all people that play Sims? My game is pretty diverse because of all the Sims the game itself creates but when I create a sim I create a white sim because that is how I and my world looks like...and now that's wrong because if I had been more inclusive I would have known about the other bad color swatches. No, it's not problematic, what's problematic is that it took so long for the developers to change it and too many Americans forget there are other places in the world outside of US.
    Yeah it was multiple "people" were not aware of it. No idea. That was the part I didn't like. But yeah when I suggested skin colors be fixed and makeup to be inclusive to be colors that aren't so ashy too for the game which was met with severe dissension. Being inclusive towards people of all backgrounds is very important especially now with gaming. It can make or break a company with the cancel culture. So I am glad SimGuruLyndsay spoke out about it.

    What cancel culture means.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/cancel-culture-words-were-watching

    I am glad I have had the opportunity to travel to other countries and have recent ancestry from other countries especially with that opportunity not being possible now. As tough as it was to move states and join forums, it has helped me work with multiple community departments now and work with dissension of customers. I did a DNA test on myself and my parents too which was interesting getting to know myself better.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • KimmerKimmer Posts: 968 Member
    Karababy52 wrote: »
    This is Noah Noonday, the founder of my TS4 Build Newcrest Challenge. He's a full-blooded Potawatomi Algonquian Native American from the Ottawa Nation, a part of the Council of Three Fires. He married Cassandra Goth and they have two children; a daughter, Kewanee and a son, Payson.

    ELGyLfV.png
    znDFNPz.png

    He's supposed to be a direct descendant of Chief Noahquageshik Noonday of Michigan fame. There is a statue honoring Chief Noonday in Grand Rapids, Michigan. My husband and I both have Michigan Three Fires Native American ancestors and I wanted to create a Sim from this culture to honor them. This Sim is the best I could do two years ago on my old under-powered laptop.

    I looked at a lot of photos online in an effort for accuracy, with hours of research. I did this because while my husband still looks somewhat Native American, he's not full-blood (1/8th) and neither am I. I look more like my German/Danish ancestors. I wanted my created Sim to look like a full-blood Potawatomi. I think he turned out quite well using the CAS assets we have available, but still not as accurate as I would like since his skin tone should have a more reddish undertone. I still love him though. :)

    I would welcome many more skin tones, hairstyles and colors in the game for all races, but while creating Noah, the idea of the lack of accurate skin tones as having racist connotations never once entered my mind.

    Happy Simming! <3

    @Karababy52
    Wow, he looks amazing, so authentic. One of the best looking & most well made Sims I've ever seen. I think I'm in love. :heart::blush:
  • Simmer_chiyenSimmer_chiyen Posts: 292 Member
    edited August 15
    Scobre wrote: »
    I know SimGuruKate shared this which I don't agree with completely. I just agree with her saying it has been a problem for years because it has.

    Um, I agree that including more shades and tones is long overdue… like ever since the beginning.

    But… didn’t they work for the studio in the past? If this is as important as they’re stating here, why not advocate it when they were in a position of power?

    Edit: changed the pronouns to match their preference, as I did not notice before.
    Post edited by Simmer_chiyen on
  • popstarsleypopstarsley Posts: 1,086 Member
    When it comes to hairstyles, in my opinion, every type of hair in this game looks absolutely ridiculous. Chunky, frumpy, and poorly textured.

    I only use CC hairs—they’re way more fun!

    Skintones need an overhaul in general. The brown ones are unusable, as are many of the light pale and peach ones. Definitely brown tones need the most work!

    There’s only 2-3 skintones that look good in live mode in my opinion.

    As a brown person, I don’t see it as “racism,” more so the development team has become so reliant on CC and modders. In the most recent live streams (over the last year or so), they’ve started openly admitting that modders will/can/should add or fix things whether it’s gameplay or CAS. Also, there’s so much CC used in popular “storytelling” videos in this game, that I’m sure developers become enamored by these creative, CC-armed storytellers that they forget some of us just wanna play. 🤷🏽‍♀️

    There’s so much remarkable custom content in this community that I think the developers sometimes forget that not everybody has access to or uses CC.
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