I know it's cynical but I think the game is older now and things that are in now probably won't be looked at. Also which fix would be most important to them to work on? They can't do any major overhauls at this stage.
@Felicity It's less the specific use of "think critically" as "focus on everything that's wrong". It's more that there's a level of peer pressure to not just consume media presented to us without questioning it (which is fine in itself) and some people take it to the extreme and look for perfection. Critical thinking is perfectly fine and understandable - say, a movie that romanticizes abuse definitely shouldn't just be watched and accepted as something perfectly normal - but, especially on social media, there's frequently a push to make things perfect to the point where sometimes things get pushed into the "problematic" zone without a valid reason.
To me, some of the criticism I see about TS4 falls into the category of "reaching" (not anyone's specific criticism and by far not all of it). It can get to the point where everything is proof that the game is bad, even things that are simply not enjoyable to someone.
@JoAnne65 For the sake of everyone who is missing the gameplay elements that Carl (and others) mentioned, I really hope the devs will take a hard look at it and work on them. (full disclosure: I don't think they're unaware and I think it's a bit more complicated than "the devs don't care", considering the history of TS4)
If that's not possible, then hopefully TS5 will come and be able to implement all the aspects that players enjoy, from gameplay through CAS and build features and mechanics, all the way to the option of micromanaging and storytelling. For me personally, the big thing about the next game would be options. Being able to set up the game to what each person wants, being able to carry those settings over, maybe having core setups to choose from when starting a new game.
I do enjoy the game's mechanics now, more than I find the need for them to change, but I do understand that they're not for everyone (and I really dislike anyone who tells others what they should enjoy, on both extremes of the spectrum). I might not want to play the game as a challenge all the time but it should have that option for those who do.
I'm a hopeful person by nature, sometimes to my detriment, really, but I genuinely think there's still a chance to make those changes happen. What I also hope is that Maxis will do it in a way that doesn't just flip a switch and take away what we have now. (how, I believe, it happened with Vampires after complaints about too much intrusiveness in the other worlds). Granted, it's the easier way to just tweak those things than it is to add a new layer. But both the devs and some of the players need to stop being so terrified of options. There are so many that wouldn't even be that hard on machines but would add so much to gameplay - random events, autonomous occult appearances outside of their worlds, stronger responses to events from the Sims.
So for me it's definitely a case of still having hope because that's how my brain is wired.
(at the same time, I'm genuinely terrified that the next iteration will be Freeplay 2.0, along with microtransactions and tons of pointless decor. Here's hoping that the shuffling of that over to Firemonkeys means that it won't be the case)
(apologies about the rambling and if this doesn't make complete sense. it's been a long day of arguing with trying to get TS4 to even work, thanks to Mac updates )
Critical thinking is using logic to evaluate whether something seems plausible or reasonable or true -- at least, that's how I normally see it used. If I'm understanding you correctly, you mean looking at something with a critical eye, or looking for fault. Bleh, I hope I'm not being pedantic. With all my rambling and grammar errors, I have no place to be
You are right that on social media people often are more concerned about their side "winning" than anything else, but I don't really see that going on here. If Sims 4 were to release a patch which vastly improved the emotion system and gave actions consequences, if done well I'd be overjoyed.
I think a good example of this is toddlers. People were mad that there were no toddlers in the game, and people talked about it and were angry about it until toddlers were released. After they were released, it became a non-issue. People who wanted them were very, very happy now that they were in the game, and generally not looking to find fault with them. Now, there were people who didn't really want toddlers who were then annoyed, but given how well done the toddlers were and how easy they are to avoid, that faded quickly.
I don't think Sims 5 will be Freeplay 2.0 because, well, they have two mobile games already and they apparently do quite well but they have a huge market in the PC market as well which also is very, very profitable. They don't really gain anything by having another mobile game supplanting the more complex PC/console game. I have my own ideas about what Sims 5 may be like, but they're just guesses. I do think they will be releasing on console as well as pc which means it won't be released until the next generation of consoles, and if they're not a launch title, then they will wait for a couple of years for the consoles to get established. Or who knows -- maybe I'll be playing Sims 5 on a tablet, but I doubt it.
@Felicity It's less the specific use of "think critically" as "focus on everything that's wrong". It's more that there's a level of peer pressure to not just consume media presented to us without questioning it (which is fine in itself) and some people take it to the extreme and look for perfection. Critical thinking is perfectly fine and understandable - say, a movie that romanticizes abuse definitely shouldn't just be watched and accepted as something perfectly normal - but, especially on social media, there's frequently a push to make things perfect to the point where sometimes things get pushed into the "problematic" zone without a valid reason.
To me, some of the criticism I see about TS4 falls into the category of "reaching" (not anyone's specific criticism and by far not all of it). It can get to the point where everything is proof that the game is bad, even things that are simply not enjoyable to someone.
@JoAnne65 For the sake of everyone who is missing the gameplay elements that Carl (and others) mentioned, I really hope the devs will take a hard look at it and work on them. (full disclosure: I don't think they're unaware and I think it's a bit more complicated than "the devs don't care", considering the history of TS4)
If that's not possible, then hopefully TS5 will come and be able to implement all the aspects that players enjoy, from gameplay through CAS and build features and mechanics, all the way to the option of micromanaging and storytelling. For me personally, the big thing about the next game would be options. Being able to set up the game to what each person wants, being able to carry those settings over, maybe having core setups to choose from when starting a new game.
I do enjoy the game's mechanics now, more than I find the need for them to change, but I do understand that they're not for everyone (and I really dislike anyone who tells others what they should enjoy, on both extremes of the spectrum). I might not want to play the game as a challenge all the time but it should have that option for those who do.
I'm a hopeful person by nature, sometimes to my detriment, really, but I genuinely think there's still a chance to make those changes happen. What I also hope is that Maxis will do it in a way that doesn't just flip a switch and take away what we have now. (how, I believe, it happened with Vampires after complaints about too much intrusiveness in the other worlds). Granted, it's the easier way to just tweak those things than it is to add a new layer. But both the devs and some of the players need to stop being so terrified of options. There are so many that wouldn't even be that hard on machines but would add so much to gameplay - random events, autonomous occult appearances outside of their worlds, stronger responses to events from the Sims.
So for me it's definitely a case of still having hope because that's how my brain is wired.
(at the same time, I'm genuinely terrified that the next iteration will be Freeplay 2.0, along with microtransactions and tons of pointless decor. Here's hoping that the shuffling of that over to Firemonkeys means that it won't be the case)
(apologies about the rambling and if this doesn't make complete sense. it's been a long day of arguing with trying to get TS4 to even work, thanks to Mac updates )
I agree (the bold), but actually that’s where my concern lies where it comes to Sims 4. I definitely have seen them trying to give simmers what they ask for for years now, I have no reason at all to assume they don’t care. There’s no proof of that, on the contrary. But “they can’t” doesn’t make me any more hopeful than “they won’t”.
Indeed, they can’t please everybody, that’s a given. But call me a hopeful person too, I actually think it is possible to develop a Sims like game that will keep different types of players satisfied. There is a reason Sims 2 is considered the pinnacle in general, even though I myself favour Sims 3 I can perfectly understand why. Because that game got the life simulation aspect best and at the end of the day that’s what simmers want. If only they could do that with open world or at least open neighborhoods (larger ones). And CASt... But I’m convinced, even though I complain about closed neighborhoods and a lack of customization abilities, I could perfectly live with that if the sims themselves and the gameplay (basegame mechanics) would be better.
@Felicity What I'm saying is that there are people who think and claim that what they're using is critical thinking: looking at something objectively and considering its good and bad points but what they're doing instead is nitpicking and finding the faults only. So they're not actually using critical thinking in the way you and I both define it.
The whole "winning" mentality isn't as strong here on the forums, I agree, though I do see signs of it at times, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive to is since I had some rather epically bad experiences with it in the not-so-distant past. Some of it (for me) would be comments in the lines of "well, I know this is going to be bad" before we know anything about content that's coming. Along with "if X doesn't contain this thing, I'm not going to touch it" (paraphrasing here, obviously). But again, not as much of that on here as it would be elsewhere on social media.
Another thing is when something gets added, like the staircase tool, and you'll see responses like "yeah but it's not spiral staircases so what's the point".
As for the TS5/Freeplay thing, I didn't mean that it would be a mobile game. I meant more the way content is added: challenges and events that require constant play and legitimately timers to be able to hit the right marks, the store that offers tiny overpriced bundles of items, etc. Basically microtransactions and an in-game currency that pushes people into spending way more money than they need to.
I do think the tablet option is a possibility though, considering how much they can handle nowadays and how gaming is evolving. It would be interesting for sure, though I'd kind of hope, instead of optimizing for that kinda use (touchscreen, significantly lower specs) that they'd bring *some* aspects to tablets and make it a bonus rather than a standalone platform for the whole game.
@Felicity What I'm saying is that there are people who think and claim that what they're using is critical thinking: looking at something objectively and considering its good and bad points but what they're doing instead is nitpicking and finding the faults only. So they're not actually using critical thinking in the way you and I both define it.
The whole "winning" mentality isn't as strong here on the forums, I agree, though I do see signs of it at times, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive to is since I had some rather epically bad experiences with it in the not-so-distant past. Some of it (for me) would be comments in the lines of "well, I know this is going to be bad" before we know anything about content that's coming. Along with "if X doesn't contain this thing, I'm not going to touch it" (paraphrasing here, obviously). But again, not as much of that on here as it would be elsewhere on social media.
Another thing is when something gets added, like the staircase tool, and you'll see responses like "yeah but it's not spiral staircases so what's the point".
As for the TS5/Freeplay thing, I didn't mean that it would be a mobile game. I meant more the way content is added: challenges and events that require constant play and legitimately timers to be able to hit the right marks, the store that offers tiny overpriced bundles of items, etc. Basically microtransactions and an in-game currency that pushes people into spending way more money than they need to.
I do think the tablet option is a possibility though, considering how much they can handle nowadays and how gaming is evolving. It would be interesting for sure, though I'd kind of hope, instead of optimizing for that kinda use (touchscreen, significantly lower specs) that they'd bring *some* aspects to tablets and make it a bonus rather than a standalone platform for the whole game.
Okay, gotcha. Yes, there are people who think their preferences are objective facts, and once you run into that, there's no point of further discussion.
My guess with Sims 5, along with what I said earlier, is that you're right. It will have a store much like the Sims 3, but that store will be in-game. I also think they are looking hard at Sims 3 because of its continued success and popularity despite there being a newer game which will tick off many Sims 4 players. The game I am hoping for will have the depth of Sims 2 sims, the depth of Sims 3 worlds and customization, and maybe the accessibility of Sims 4 -- and all of that on a stable foundation. However, I already know that's not the game I'm going to get.
@Felicity What I'm saying is that there are people who think and claim that what they're using is critical thinking: looking at something objectively and considering its good and bad points but what they're doing instead is nitpicking and finding the faults only. So they're not actually using critical thinking in the way you and I both define it.
The whole "winning" mentality isn't as strong here on the forums, I agree, though I do see signs of it at times, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive to is since I had some rather epically bad experiences with it in the not-so-distant past. Some of it (for me) would be comments in the lines of "well, I know this is going to be bad" before we know anything about content that's coming. Along with "if X doesn't contain this thing, I'm not going to touch it" (paraphrasing here, obviously). But again, not as much of that on here as it would be elsewhere on social media.
Another thing is when something gets added, like the staircase tool, and you'll see responses like "yeah but it's not spiral staircases so what's the point".
As for the TS5/Freeplay thing, I didn't mean that it would be a mobile game. I meant more the way content is added: challenges and events that require constant play and legitimately timers to be able to hit the right marks, the store that offers tiny overpriced bundles of items, etc. Basically microtransactions and an in-game currency that pushes people into spending way more money than they need to.
I do think the tablet option is a possibility though, considering how much they can handle nowadays and how gaming is evolving. It would be interesting for sure, though I'd kind of hope, instead of optimizing for that kinda use (touchscreen, significantly lower specs) that they'd bring *some* aspects to tablets and make it a bonus rather than a standalone platform for the whole game.
@Felicity What I'm saying is that there are people who think and claim that what they're using is critical thinking: looking at something objectively and considering its good and bad points but what they're doing instead is nitpicking and finding the faults only. So they're not actually using critical thinking in the way you and I both define it.
The whole "winning" mentality isn't as strong here on the forums, I agree, though I do see signs of it at times, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive to is since I had some rather epically bad experiences with it in the not-so-distant past. Some of it (for me) would be comments in the lines of "well, I know this is going to be bad" before we know anything about content that's coming. Along with "if X doesn't contain this thing, I'm not going to touch it" (paraphrasing here, obviously). But again, not as much of that on here as it would be elsewhere on social media.
Another thing is when something gets added, like the staircase tool, and you'll see responses like "yeah but it's not spiral staircases so what's the point".
As for the TS5/Freeplay thing, I didn't mean that it would be a mobile game. I meant more the way content is added: challenges and events that require constant play and legitimately timers to be able to hit the right marks, the store that offers tiny overpriced bundles of items, etc. Basically microtransactions and an in-game currency that pushes people into spending way more money than they need to.
I do think the tablet option is a possibility though, considering how much they can handle nowadays and how gaming is evolving. It would be interesting for sure, though I'd kind of hope, instead of optimizing for that kinda use (touchscreen, significantly lower specs) that they'd bring *some* aspects to tablets and make it a bonus rather than a standalone platform for the whole game.
@Felicity What I'm saying is that there are people who think and claim that what they're using is critical thinking: looking at something objectively and considering its good and bad points but what they're doing instead is nitpicking and finding the faults only. So they're not actually using critical thinking in the way you and I both define it.
The whole "winning" mentality isn't as strong here on the forums, I agree, though I do see signs of it at times, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive to is since I had some rather epically bad experiences with it in the not-so-distant past. Some of it (for me) would be comments in the lines of "well, I know this is going to be bad" before we know anything about content that's coming. Along with "if X doesn't contain this thing, I'm not going to touch it" (paraphrasing here, obviously). But again, not as much of that on here as it would be elsewhere on social media.
Another thing is when something gets added, like the staircase tool, and you'll see responses like "yeah but it's not spiral staircases so what's the point".
As for the TS5/Freeplay thing, I didn't mean that it would be a mobile game. I meant more the way content is added: challenges and events that require constant play and legitimately timers to be able to hit the right marks, the store that offers tiny overpriced bundles of items, etc. Basically microtransactions and an in-game currency that pushes people into spending way more money than they need to.
I do think the tablet option is a possibility though, considering how much they can handle nowadays and how gaming is evolving. It would be interesting for sure, though I'd kind of hope, instead of optimizing for that kinda use (touchscreen, significantly lower specs) that they'd bring *some* aspects to tablets and make it a bonus rather than a standalone platform for the whole game.
That's not your imagination.
Huh? What's not my imagination?
Attempting objectivity by stating opinions that don't sit well with those who "care" the most.
@Felicity It's less the specific use of "think critically" as "focus on everything that's wrong". It's more that there's a level of peer pressure to not just consume media presented to us without questioning it (which is fine in itself) and some people take it to the extreme and look for perfection. Critical thinking is perfectly fine and understandable - say, a movie that romanticizes abuse definitely shouldn't just be watched and accepted as something perfectly normal - but, especially on social media, there's frequently a push to make things perfect to the point where sometimes things get pushed into the "problematic" zone without a valid reason.
To me, some of the criticism I see about TS4 falls into the category of "reaching" (not anyone's specific criticism and by far not all of it). It can get to the point where everything is proof that the game is bad, even things that are simply not enjoyable to someone.
@JoAnne65 For the sake of everyone who is missing the gameplay elements that Carl (and others) mentioned, I really hope the devs will take a hard look at it and work on them. (full disclosure: I don't think they're unaware and I think it's a bit more complicated than "the devs don't care", considering the history of TS4)
If that's not possible, then hopefully TS5 will come and be able to implement all the aspects that players enjoy, from gameplay through CAS and build features and mechanics, all the way to the option of micromanaging and storytelling. For me personally, the big thing about the next game would be options. Being able to set up the game to what each person wants, being able to carry those settings over, maybe having core setups to choose from when starting a new game.
I do enjoy the game's mechanics now, more than I find the need for them to change, but I do understand that they're not for everyone (and I really dislike anyone who tells others what they should enjoy, on both extremes of the spectrum). I might not want to play the game as a challenge all the time but it should have that option for those who do.
I'm a hopeful person by nature, sometimes to my detriment, really, but I genuinely think there's still a chance to make those changes happen. What I also hope is that Maxis will do it in a way that doesn't just flip a switch and take away what we have now. (how, I believe, it happened with Vampires after complaints about too much intrusiveness in the other worlds). Granted, it's the easier way to just tweak those things than it is to add a new layer. But both the devs and some of the players need to stop being so terrified of options. There are so many that wouldn't even be that hard on machines but would add so much to gameplay - random events, autonomous occult appearances outside of their worlds, stronger responses to events from the Sims.
So for me it's definitely a case of still having hope because that's how my brain is wired.
(at the same time, I'm genuinely terrified that the next iteration will be Freeplay 2.0, along with microtransactions and tons of pointless decor. Here's hoping that the shuffling of that over to Firemonkeys means that it won't be the case)
(apologies about the rambling and if this doesn't make complete sense. it's been a long day of arguing with trying to get TS4 to even work, thanks to Mac updates )
I agree (the bold), but actually that’s where my concern lies where it comes to Sims 4. I definitely have seen them trying to give simmers what they ask for for years now, I have no reason at all to assume they don’t care. There’s no proof of that, on the contrary. But “they can’t” doesn’t make me any more hopeful than “they won’t”.
Indeed, they can’t please everybody, that’s a given. But call me a hopeful person too, I actually think it is possible to develop a Sims like game that will keep different types of players satisfied. There is a reason Sims 2 is considered the pinnacle in general, even though I myself favour Sims 3 I can perfectly understand why. Because that game got the life simulation aspect best and at the end of the day that’s what simmers want. If only they could do that with open world or at least open neighborhoods (larger ones). And CASt... But I’m convinced, even though I complain about closed neighborhoods and a lack of customization abilities, I could perfectly live with that if the sims themselves and the gameplay (basegame mechanics) would be better.
Just to clarify, I think part of the "they can't" is due to TS4's initial setup, which I think is part of why some things are either hard to do or flat out impossible. And well, the issues with that are a whole different discussion (look, I like the game, but I'm aware of its start and how it was supposed to be something else - something that I hope they'll never consider again, thank you very much).
I've got to admit that I do like the worlds the way they are, to a point. I would like if the neighborhoods within the worlds were open, but if there are loading screens between neighbourhoods and worlds (as long as they stay as short as they are, which for me is a "can't get up to grab my drink from 5 feet away" moment lol) then I'd be cool with that.
The way the worlds we have are so varied is a thing I do love a lot. So in terms of that, for the next one: worlds with open neighborhoods and more individual lots would be, for me, the best option.
I think I'm a little afraid of open worlds because of the demand on the systems. Now, I'm not going to wildly wave the flag of "please let this run on 10yo machines" but it would be nice to not *need* a gaming rig to play the game.
They've got 4 versions under the belt now, if they have learned the lesson of "MMO isn't the way", then hopefully they'll know to pick and choose from the best parts of each of them and combine that into something great. Like I said, hopeful person.
Just to clarify, I think part of the "they can't" is due to TS4's initial setup, which I think is part of why some things are either hard to do or flat out impossible. And well, the issues with that are a whole different discussion (look, I like the game, but I'm aware of its start and how it was supposed to be something else - something that I hope they'll never consider again, thank you very much).
What I find frustrating is that, if the game isn't capable of accomplishing certain things, why not say so?
Just as an example: when Seasons was about to launch, the word went out that there would be no depth to the snow. The rep said that it wasn't because the engine couldn't handle the snow, it simply didn't look satisfactory. To me, that smacks of spin. If it were only a matter of aesthetics, why hasn't the snow been fixed yet? Furniture has improved, the ball pit was fixed STAT. Likewise, the counters in IL were fixed as soon as there was a disquieting rumble amongst the Game Changers. So, what happened to the snow?
The reps keep touting that TS4 has the best engine within the entire series, smarter Sims, actual emotions (as if the series never had that before) and yet, the things that have been staples of the series have turned out to be too difficult, too costly, or whatever the reasoning is for any given issue.. If this is supposed to be a much better engine that makes creating easier, why is that?
All I ask for is honesty. Being forthright gets you a lot more leeway than 'Yeah, we can do it' then not coming through. EA/Maxis used to be a really honest company that told the community when there were problems and everyone celebrated together when/if the problem was solved.
The corporate "character" (at the moment, I can't think of the phrase that I really want to use) is very different now. Nowadays we get 'We want it to be the best that it can possibly be, using the hallmark function that is the basis of the game'. Nearly six years later, you get the lounge chair that does no such thing. It's dishonest.
As much as I enjoyed your post the other day this^ was an absolute mess.
Repetition doesn't equate to passion.
First of all how many who play the game post on Social Media?
Is your opinion worth more than someone who never expresses themselves on forums?
Whatever happened to voting with your wallet?
I'm on my 3rd Stratocaster. should I be sending open letters to Fender expressing my love and dedication to them for their wonderful product?
And what would happen if that product went down hill? Should I seek out the forums and post about my displeasure on a daily basis?
Or just go out and buy a Les Paul?
When someone does create a post listing the things they like about the game, it's not seen as someone posting their opinion.
It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away
I don't see the need to prove anything to this franchise.
You basically just said your opinion counts more because you care more. smh
As @Felicity pointed out all these ideas might not make it into the Sims 4 and I'm ok with that. If a paves a better future for the Sims 5 would be nice.
But thanks you Uzone have proven to me that I can't see you as a fan just as much as you can't see me as a fan either and that you did exactly this, "It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away". No I'm no more important than anyone else and that you and others think that about me or any EA Game Changer shows a huge amount of insecurity both personally and financially. You are just as guilty with the EAAbuse and EAListen movement telling others to "just go away" and "vote with their wallet", so I guess thanks for supporting that *shrugs*. Thanks for not talking about the Sims 4 game or trying to sell it to others. With your efforts Sims 5 may come sooner so keep it up. You are free to praise or criticize products beyond just the Sims all you want. Thank you Felicity and darrenfroggy for posting about the game and wanting the Sims future to be bright. I've enjoyed your posts.
@JoAnne65 Yeah I never understood the need to be in a bandwagon and agree that social media has little room for those that want to be in the middle. I guess that is why people tell me to go away so often. I would hate to be an extreme fan or critic, because I have seen how often it flip flops back and forth with people. Let's just enjoy our safe spot in the middle.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
As much as I enjoyed your post the other day this^ was an absolute mess.
Repetition doesn't equate to passion.
First of all how many who play the game post on Social Media?
Is your opinion worth more than someone who never expresses themselves on forums?
Whatever happened to voting with your wallet?
I'm on my 3rd Stratocaster. should I be sending open letters to Fender expressing my love and dedication to them for their wonderful product?
And what would happen if that product went down hill? Should I seek out the forums and post about my displeasure on a daily basis?
Or just go out and buy a Les Paul?
When someone does create a post listing the things they like about the game, it's not seen as someone posting their opinion.
It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away
I don't see the need to prove anything to this franchise.
You basically just said your opinion counts more because you care more. smh
As @Felicity pointed out all these ideas might not make it into the Sims 4 and I'm ok with that. If a paves a better future for the Sims 5 would be nice.
But thanks you Uzone have proven to me that I can't see you as a fan just as much as you can't see me as a fan either and that you did exactly this, "It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away". No I'm no more important than anyone else and that you and others think that about me or any EA Game Changer shows a huge amount of insecurity both personally and financially. You are just as guilty with the EAAbuse and EAListen movement telling others to "just go away" and "vote with their wallet", so I guess thanks for supporting that *shrugs*. Thanks for not talking about the Sims 4 game or trying to sell it to others. With your efforts Sims 5 may come sooner so keep it up. You are free to praise or criticize products beyond just the Sims all you want. Thank you Felicity and darrenfroggy for posting about the game and wanting the Sims future to be bright. I've enjoyed your posts.
@JoAnne65 Yeah I never understood the need to be in a bandwagon and agree that social media has little room for those that want to be in the middle. I guess that is why people tell me to go away so often. I would hate to be an extreme fan or critic, because I have seen how often it flip flops back and forth with people. Let's just enjoy our safe spot in the middle.
Just to clarify, I think part of the "they can't" is due to TS4's initial setup, which I think is part of why some things are either hard to do or flat out impossible. And well, the issues with that are a whole different discussion (look, I like the game, but I'm aware of its start and how it was supposed to be something else - something that I hope they'll never consider again, thank you very much).
What I find frustrating is that, if the game isn't capable of accomplishing certain things, why not say so?
Just as an example: when Seasons was about to launch, the word went out that there would be no depth to the snow. The rep said that it wasn't because the engine couldn't handle the snow, it simply didn't look satisfactory. To me, that smacks of spin. If it were only a matter of aesthetics, why hasn't the snow been fixed yet? Furniture has improved, the ball pit was fixed STAT. Likewise, the counters in IL were fixed as soon as there was a disquieting rumble amongst the Game Changers. So, what happened to the snow?
The reps keep touting that TS4 has the best engine within the entire series, smarter Sims, actual emotions (as if the series never had that before) and yet, the things that have been staples of the series have turned out to be too difficult, too costly, or whatever the reasoning is for any given issue.. If this is supposed to be a much better engine that makes creating easier, why is that?
All I ask for is honesty. Being forthright gets you a lot more leeway than 'Yeah, we can do it' then not coming through. EA/Maxis used to be a really honest company that told the community when there were problems and everyone celebrated together when/if the problem was solved.
The corporate "character" (at the moment, I can't think of the phrase that I really want to use) is very different now. Nowadays we get 'We want it to be the best that it can possibly be, using the hallmark function that is the basis of the game'. Nearly six years later, you get the lounge chair that does no such thing. It's dishonest.
I wasn't properly clear, I apologize.
What I was talking about wasn't the underlying engine and what it can and cannot handle in terms of things like snow depth or multitasking or world sizes (because yeah, there are definitely things that should work better).
I meant the initial code which, as far as I'm aware, has been repurposed from what was initially supposed to be an MMO game which would have a whole different base - there's a vast difference between a game that expects constant player input and doesn't have the mechanics at the core for autonomous story progression for NPCs (and even played Sims) when none of them were originally *meant to* have that ability.
The fact that that's what, supposedly, happened is why I can see them not admitting it. That move (I mean, someone could prove me wrong if that's not what happened but everything in the game tells me it was) was absolutely a bad one.
Using your examples though: there's a difference between fixing something that is purely aesthetic like the design of a specific item and something that would affect a much bigger amount of things in the game: animations in the deeper snow, interaction with existing objects etc. The engine making things easier doesn't mean everything is easy. (and for what it's worth, I think the counter thing was a case of the wrong items being put into the game at first, which is a whole different kind of mess up that shouldn't have happened and has a lot to do with outsourcing of certain elements of the development).
I like to refer to the corporate as TPTB |(The Powers That Be), which I picked up years ago in a non-gaming media. And it never has a good connotation because they never do have the end consumer in mind, only the bottom line. It's, unfortunately, something that's been happening for a long time and just keeps getting worse.
To clarify: I'm not either excusing it or existentially accepting it as inevitable in terms of it never changing again. Just being aware of the probable (very likely) reasons behind what's ultimately business decisions.
Honesty would indeed be nice, I agree. Indie games, where the creators and owners are not quite as bound by the "think of the bottom line" restrictions, tend to be a lot more forthright about the ability and limitations of their product. In a way, I guess I'm resigned to a degree of "it is what it is" when it comes to that: a straightforward "no" is always seen as a failure in those kind of circles (EA, other big producers, big companies in general), for all the wrong reasons.
As much as I enjoyed your post the other day this^ was an absolute mess.
Repetition doesn't equate to passion.
First of all how many who play the game post on Social Media?
Is your opinion worth more than someone who never expresses themselves on forums?
Whatever happened to voting with your wallet?
I'm on my 3rd Stratocaster. should I be sending open letters to Fender expressing my love and dedication to them for their wonderful product?
And what would happen if that product went down hill? Should I seek out the forums and post about my displeasure on a daily basis?
Or just go out and buy a Les Paul?
When someone does create a post listing the things they like about the game, it's not seen as someone posting their opinion.
It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away
I don't see the need to prove anything to this franchise.
You basically just said your opinion counts more because you care more. smh
As @Felicity pointed out all these ideas might not make it into the Sims 4 and I'm ok with that. If a paves a better future for the Sims 5 would be nice.
But thanks you Uzone have proven to me that I can't see you as a fan just as much as you can't see me as a fan either and that you did exactly this, "It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away". No I'm no more important than anyone else and that you and others think that about me or any EA Game Changer shows a huge amount of insecurity both personally and financially. You are just as guilty with the EAAbuse and EAListen movement telling others to "just go away" and "vote with their wallet", so I guess thanks for supporting that *shrugs*. Thanks for not talking about the Sims 4 game or trying to sell it to others. With your efforts Sims 5 may come sooner so keep it up. You are free to praise or criticize products beyond just the Sims all you want. Thank you Felicity and darrenfroggy for posting about the game and wanting the Sims future to be bright. I've enjoyed your posts.
@JoAnne65 Yeah I never understood the need to be in a bandwagon and agree that social media has little room for those that want to be in the middle. I guess that is why people tell me to go away so often. I would hate to be an extreme fan or critic, because I have seen how often it flip flops back and forth with people. Let's just enjoy our safe spot in the middle.
If only the middle would be a safe spot Nobody actually believes it’s exists, understanding and appreciating both sides or at least wanting to try. “If you’re not with me you’re against me” is a very popular idea in Polarization Land. Which makes the person in the middle the ‘enemy’ for both ends of the spectrum. *not just referring to Sims here
If only the middle would be a safe spot Nobody actually believes it’s exists, understanding and appreciating both sides or at least wanting to try. “If you’re not with me you’re against me” is a very popular idea in Polarization Land. Which makes the person in the middle the ‘enemy’ for both ends of the spectrum. *not just referring to Sims here
Yeah I am realizing that. No wonder coming into the internet can be like a war zone and why parents are scared to let kids be online. Thank goodness for friends both in the Sims community and out of it. It would be a very lonely life being in a bandwagon instead of forming valuable friendships. Yeah I remember how a Simmer pointed out the Sims community reflects the schism in society today. I had an interesting conversation with my family too how the default mood online is aggression. Even had interesting conversations with co-workers too before how they use social media to prove they are right on politics. One of my best friends who works in gaming said to another friend who asked why people hate her so much and why she kept losing friends and he put it simply, "Do you want to be right or do you want to loved because you can't have both?". I think people are just scared of change.
I know I was thinking Sims CM posting thinking of just the Sims 4 ended up being for the mobile division. I don't think there is any iteration where Simmers were ready to move onto the next iteration. To me I have been with the Sims games long enough that five years was always the norm with how long Sims games lasted. It is a concept that newer Simmers haven't experienced yet. So it is like ok Sims 4 has covered pretty much all the themes past iterations have covered and with many Simmers claiming they don't play or that game changers don't play occult, development seems done. So maybe it isn't hope I have lost but the realization that Sims 4 has run its course and done its 5 years. It is no longer a baby Sims game anymore. What is in there now is what we got and with performance issues maxing out on several computers, not like current players can handle more DLC on their computers anyways. With more DLC will come more bugs as Gurus have pointed out in interviews and of course will take up more memory on computers. I can run all 3 Sims games fine on my gaming rig, but learning majority cannot afford to. How much more DLC can they afford if their computer house is already maxed out? Why I hope the Sims 5 moves into cloud based gaming. It will save the Sims having performance issues and take out the limits that Sims can only run on one device at a time.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
@Scobre Just to touch on the cloud gaming part of your post: I honestly hope that won't happen.
Sure, a lot more people have online access these days than 5 years ago but there are still a lot of people with two issues: no coverage for access that would allow cloud gaming and providers who make that access impossible due to its cost.
In an ideal world, with Net Neutrality (which is a whole different conversation that doesn't belong here, so I'm not going to get into it) being the norm, cloud gaming would be great. As it is, it's likely to make a game as inaccessible as requirements that are too high for anything but gaming rigs.
It's a fine balance to aim for, honestly, when it comes to being accessible to players who are and aren't hardcore gamers (unless, of course, they choose to only target one side of the spectrum).
To touch on the other part of your post: the scary thing is that nowadays there are too many people who put too much weight on being right, even when they know they're not. In all sorts of discussions and situations, not specific to gaming or politics or anything else.
@Scobre Just to touch on the cloud gaming part of your post: I honestly hope that won't happen.
Sure, a lot more people have online access these days than 5 years ago but there are still a lot of people with two issues: no coverage for access that would allow cloud gaming and providers who make that access impossible due to its cost.
In an ideal world, with Net Neutrality (which is a whole different conversation that doesn't belong here, so I'm not going to get into it) being the norm, cloud gaming would be great. As it is, it's likely to make a game as inaccessible as requirements that are too high for anything but gaming rigs.
It's a fine balance to aim for, honestly, when it comes to being accessible to players who are and aren't hardcore gamers (unless, of course, they choose to only target one side of the spectrum).
To touch on the other part of your post: the scary thing is that nowadays there are too many people who put too much weight on being right, even when they know they're not. In all sorts of discussions and situations, not specific to gaming or politics or anything else.
So someone could game with their cellphone on a Wi-Fi spot in public. I know Africa has much cheaper data plans than the USA so Sims could open up so much more worldwide. Sims 4 isn't no internet access at all either. You still need internet to access the Gallery and the patches. But imagine being able to game on your tv, mobile device, console or computer and have it run just as good and look as good on any of those devices. It is still in beta mode of course but it will be game changing when it takes off and becomes mainstream. VR gaming could even be possible for Sims at a cheaper rate being able to play it on mobile, but I hope that they do allow it to turn on and off like first person view for the Sims 4. So no you won't need an expensive gaming rig or internet connection. You could even play in between classes at university. Facial recognition software and procedural generated worlds could also benefit the franchise too and cut EA production costs down.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
If only the middle would be a safe spot Nobody actually believes it’s exists, understanding and appreciating both sides or at least wanting to try. “If you’re not with me you’re against me” is a very popular idea in Polarization Land. Which makes the person in the middle the ‘enemy’ for both ends of the spectrum. *not just referring to Sims here
Yeah I am realizing that. No wonder coming into the internet can be like a war zone and why parents are scared to let kids be online. Thank goodness for friends both in the Sims community and out of it. It would be a very lonely life being in a bandwagon instead of forming valuable friendships. Yeah I remember how a Simmer pointed out the Sims community reflects the schism in society today. I had an interesting conversation with my family too how the default mood online is aggression. Even had interesting conversations with co-workers too before how they use social media to prove they are right on politics. One of my best friends who works in gaming said to another friend who asked why people hate her so much and why she kept losing friends and he put it simply, "Do you want to be right or do you want to loved because you can't have both?". I think people are just scared of change.
I know I was thinking Sims CM posting thinking of just the Sims 4 ended up being for the mobile division. I don't think there is any iteration where Simmers were ready to move onto the next iteration. To me I have been with the Sims games long enough that five years was always the norm with how long Sims games lasted. It is a concept that newer Simmers haven't experienced yet. So it is like ok Sims 4 has covered pretty much all the themes past iterations have covered and with many Simmers claiming they don't play or that game changers don't play occult, development seems done. So maybe it isn't hope I have lost but the realization that Sims 4 has run its course and done its 5 years. It is no longer a baby Sims game anymore. What is in there now is what we got and with performance issues maxing out on several computers, not like current players can handle more DLC on their computers anyways. With more DLC will come more bugs as Gurus have pointed out in interviews and of course will take up more memory on computers. I can run all 3 Sims games fine on my gaming rig, but learning majority cannot afford to. How much more DLC can they afford if their computer house is already maxed out? Why I hope the Sims 5 moves into cloud based gaming. It will save the Sims having performance issues and take out the limits that Sims can only run on one device at a time.
Cloud based game will make me not be a consumer. I hate the forced online way of gaming, and that is exactly what cloud gaming is. I always have and always will prefer physical copies of my game. By the way, Sims 4 can already run on multiple devices at the same time. All you need to do is have all the computers play offline. My family does that with all our games about 99.9% of the time.
@Felicity It's less the specific use of "think critically" as "focus on everything that's wrong". It's more that there's a level of peer pressure to not just consume media presented to us without questioning it (which is fine in itself) and some people take it to the extreme and look for perfection. Critical thinking is perfectly fine and understandable - say, a movie that romanticizes abuse definitely shouldn't just be watched and accepted as something perfectly normal - but, especially on social media, there's frequently a push to make things perfect to the point where sometimes things get pushed into the "problematic" zone without a valid reason.
To me, some of the criticism I see about TS4 falls into the category of "reaching" (not anyone's specific criticism and by far not all of it). It can get to the point where everything is proof that the game is bad, even things that are simply not enjoyable to someone.
@JoAnne65 For the sake of everyone who is missing the gameplay elements that Carl (and others) mentioned, I really hope the devs will take a hard look at it and work on them. (full disclosure: I don't think they're unaware and I think it's a bit more complicated than "the devs don't care", considering the history of TS4)
If that's not possible, then hopefully TS5 will come and be able to implement all the aspects that players enjoy, from gameplay through CAS and build features and mechanics, all the way to the option of micromanaging and storytelling. For me personally, the big thing about the next game would be options. Being able to set up the game to what each person wants, being able to carry those settings over, maybe having core setups to choose from when starting a new game.
I do enjoy the game's mechanics now, more than I find the need for them to change, but I do understand that they're not for everyone (and I really dislike anyone who tells others what they should enjoy, on both extremes of the spectrum). I might not want to play the game as a challenge all the time but it should have that option for those who do.
I'm a hopeful person by nature, sometimes to my detriment, really, but I genuinely think there's still a chance to make those changes happen. What I also hope is that Maxis will do it in a way that doesn't just flip a switch and take away what we have now. (how, I believe, it happened with Vampires after complaints about too much intrusiveness in the other worlds). Granted, it's the easier way to just tweak those things than it is to add a new layer. But both the devs and some of the players need to stop being so terrified of options. There are so many that wouldn't even be that hard on machines but would add so much to gameplay - random events, autonomous occult appearances outside of their worlds, stronger responses to events from the Sims.
So for me it's definitely a case of still having hope because that's how my brain is wired.
(at the same time, I'm genuinely terrified that the next iteration will be Freeplay 2.0, along with microtransactions and tons of pointless decor. Here's hoping that the shuffling of that over to Firemonkeys means that it won't be the case)
(apologies about the rambling and if this doesn't make complete sense. it's been a long day of arguing with trying to get TS4 to even work, thanks to Mac updates )
I agree (the bold), but actually that’s where my concern lies where it comes to Sims 4. I definitely have seen them trying to give simmers what they ask for for years now, I have no reason at all to assume they don’t care. There’s no proof of that, on the contrary. But “they can’t” doesn’t make me any more hopeful than “they won’t”.
Speaking of this, I notice developers, intentionally or not, when their asked for their input of certain implementation possibless, they always everytime deem it to be something "(they) can't do it", instead of you know - hypothetically thinking of theories and explaining how hypothetically they can be make it to practice. They don't really give an open minded attitude of explaining how they would be able to do it if they could. As if anybody that shares an idea on their twitter count will be inevitable be shut down by developers powerlessness.
Actually, I don't how to articulate the point I'm trying to cross.
If only the middle would be a safe spot Nobody actually believes it’s exists, understanding and appreciating both sides or at least wanting to try. “If you’re not with me you’re against me” is a very popular idea in Polarization Land. Which makes the person in the middle the ‘enemy’ for both ends of the spectrum. *not just referring to Sims here
Yeah I am realizing that. No wonder coming into the internet can be like a war zone and why parents are scared to let kids be online. Thank goodness for friends both in the Sims community and out of it. It would be a very lonely life being in a bandwagon instead of forming valuable friendships. Yeah I remember how a Simmer pointed out the Sims community reflects the schism in society today. I had an interesting conversation with my family too how the default mood online is aggression. Even had interesting conversations with co-workers too before how they use social media to prove they are right on politics. One of my best friends who works in gaming said to another friend who asked why people hate her so much and why she kept losing friends and he put it simply, "Do you want to be right or do you want to loved because you can't have both?". I think people are just scared of change.
I know I was thinking Sims CM posting thinking of just the Sims 4 ended up being for the mobile division. I don't think there is any iteration where Simmers were ready to move onto the next iteration. To me I have been with the Sims games long enough that five years was always the norm with how long Sims games lasted. It is a concept that newer Simmers haven't experienced yet. So it is like ok Sims 4 has covered pretty much all the themes past iterations have covered and with many Simmers claiming they don't play or that game changers don't play occult, development seems done. So maybe it isn't hope I have lost but the realization that Sims 4 has run its course and done its 5 years. It is no longer a baby Sims game anymore. What is in there now is what we got and with performance issues maxing out on several computers, not like current players can handle more DLC on their computers anyways. With more DLC will come more bugs as Gurus have pointed out in interviews and of course will take up more memory on computers. I can run all 3 Sims games fine on my gaming rig, but learning majority cannot afford to. How much more DLC can they afford if their computer house is already maxed out? Why I hope the Sims 5 moves into cloud based gaming. It will save the Sims having performance issues and take out the limits that Sims can only run on one device at a time.
Scobre - I think people need to keep separate the dislikes they have in the game with the people disliking those things. I know a lot of people here I do respect very much - you are one of those and like a lot - but I do not always agree with everything these people say any more than I am sure many do not agree with me. It does not keep me from liking that person or respecting how they personally feel about something.
I think more people need to look beyond opinions, or likes and dislikes and remember we are talking to real people - none of which had anything to do with making the game or creating the angst involved. Something that may bug me might not bother someone else and I need to find that okay and not a reason to add to the problem but don't let it color how one feels about the person saying it.
That is like some people have been fit to be tied over the lounge chair where as the lounge chair does not phase me at all. I never have sims sitting in them even - as my sims do not really lounge around on the beach anyway. I play a more action game where my sims are always doing things and exploring something - but that does not mean it does not drive that other simmer nuts. I know nothing I could say would make it better anyway - seeing i obviously do not really care about the lounge chair.
I really can't offer any solutions on either side of your your talking points - other than whether people agree or disagree about what ever it is in the game - keep in mind it is a game and we are all real people and try not to hate on each other because of something in the game. Most simmers are nice people no matter what just some get more passionate in their feelings about the game at times. It is good not to let that color how you the person feels about that person. I honestly like your posts - you say things that make me think - keep posting and sharing.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
@Scobre Just to touch on the cloud gaming part of your post: I honestly hope that won't happen.
Sure, a lot more people have online access these days than 5 years ago but there are still a lot of people with two issues: no coverage for access that would allow cloud gaming and providers who make that access impossible due to its cost.
In an ideal world, with Net Neutrality (which is a whole different conversation that doesn't belong here, so I'm not going to get into it) being the norm, cloud gaming would be great. As it is, it's likely to make a game as inaccessible as requirements that are too high for anything but gaming rigs.
It's a fine balance to aim for, honestly, when it comes to being accessible to players who are and aren't hardcore gamers (unless, of course, they choose to only target one side of the spectrum).
To touch on the other part of your post: the scary thing is that nowadays there are too many people who put too much weight on being right, even when they know they're not. In all sorts of discussions and situations, not specific to gaming or politics or anything else.
So someone could game with their cellphone on a Wi-Fi spot in public. I know Africa has much cheaper data plans than the USA so Sims could open up so much more worldwide. Sims 4 isn't no internet access at all either. You still need internet to access the Gallery and the patches. But imagine being able to game on your tv, mobile device, console or computer and have it run just as good and look as good on any of those devices. It is still in beta mode of course but it will be game changing when it takes off and becomes mainstream. VR gaming could even be possible for Sims at a cheaper rate being able to play it on mobile, but I hope that they do allow it to turn on and off like first person view for the Sims 4. So no you won't need an expensive gaming rig or internet connection. You could even play in between classes at university. Facial recognition software and procedural generated worlds could also benefit the franchise too and cut EA production costs down.
Some of that sounds intriguing, sure. But personally I have zero interest in investing in a game that the company has that much control over. Cloud-based anything has the disadvantage of the company having free reign to pull the plug whenever they please on whomever they please. While right now I can go offline and keep playing my game as much as I want and only sacrifice new content and patches, with cloud gaming, what happens if their servers go down? What happens when there are political tensions between countries?
I think a big warning sign is what happened with Adobe products just recently: they pulled the plug on every user in a country due to politics.
Another is the shaky backup solutions with other cloud-based software (Cloudflare goes down and half the internet is broken).
I know the software world is heading in that direction. For me, there are just too many potential downsides to it for now.
@Scobre Just to touch on the cloud gaming part of your post: I honestly hope that won't happen.
Sure, a lot more people have online access these days than 5 years ago but there are still a lot of people with two issues: no coverage for access that would allow cloud gaming and providers who make that access impossible due to its cost.
In an ideal world, with Net Neutrality (which is a whole different conversation that doesn't belong here, so I'm not going to get into it) being the norm, cloud gaming would be great. As it is, it's likely to make a game as inaccessible as requirements that are too high for anything but gaming rigs.
It's a fine balance to aim for, honestly, when it comes to being accessible to players who are and aren't hardcore gamers (unless, of course, they choose to only target one side of the spectrum).
To touch on the other part of your post: the scary thing is that nowadays there are too many people who put too much weight on being right, even when they know they're not. In all sorts of discussions and situations, not specific to gaming or politics or anything else.
So someone could game with their cellphone on a Wi-Fi spot in public. I know Africa has much cheaper data plans than the USA so Sims could open up so much more worldwide. Sims 4 isn't no internet access at all either. You still need internet to access the Gallery and the patches. But imagine being able to game on your tv, mobile device, console or computer and have it run just as good and look as good on any of those devices. It is still in beta mode of course but it will be game changing when it takes off and becomes mainstream. VR gaming could even be possible for Sims at a cheaper rate being able to play it on mobile, but I hope that they do allow it to turn on and off like first person view for the Sims 4. So no you won't need an expensive gaming rig or internet connection. You could even play in between classes at university. Facial recognition software and procedural generated worlds could also benefit the franchise too and cut EA production costs down.
Some of that sounds intriguing, sure. But personally I have zero interest in investing in a game that the company has that much control over. Cloud-based anything has the disadvantage of the company having free reign to pull the plug whenever they please on whomever they please. While right now I can go offline and keep playing my game as much as I want and only sacrifice new content and patches, with cloud gaming, what happens if their servers go down? What happens when there are political tensions between countries?
I think a big warning sign is what happened with Adobe products just recently: they pulled the plug on every user in a country due to politics.
Another is the shaky backup solutions with other cloud-based software (Cloudflare goes down and half the internet is broken).
I know the software world is heading in that direction. For me, there are just too many potential downsides to it for now.
I have learned to take life one day at a time and not try and predict future anything. What ever happens is going to happen anyway regardless of what most people do seeing we are the consumer - not the creators or owners of the companies doing the work and providing the incomes to get things done. Sure we can quit - that is our choice or we can accept what is offered and move on. Worrying about any of it really does not change a thing - especially when we are not running the show. The most we can hope for is stay in the game and try to help mold at least some of what we hope for. Quitting is not a good solution.
Cloud gaming is the direction many of the big companies are aiming for - they have been talking about it for years now and moving in that direction. I feel if we want to keep gaming - like it or not that will end up our destination sooner or later.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
What I was talking about wasn't the underlying engine and what it can and cannot handle in terms of things like snow depth or multitasking or world sizes (because yeah, there are definitely things that should work better).
I meant the initial code which, as far as I'm aware, has been repurposed from what was initially supposed to be an MMO game which would have a whole different base - there's a vast difference between a game that expects constant player input and doesn't have the mechanics at the core for autonomous story progression for NPCs (and even played Sims) when none of them were originally *meant to* have that ability.
The fact that that's what, supposedly, happened is why I can see them not admitting it. That move (I mean, someone could prove me wrong if that's not what happened but everything in the game tells me it was) was absolutely a bad one.
Using your examples though: there's a difference between fixing something that is purely aesthetic like the design of a specific item and something that would affect a much bigger amount of things in the game: animations in the deeper snow, interaction with existing objects etc. The engine making things easier doesn't mean everything is easy. (and for what it's worth, I think the counter thing was a case of the wrong items being put into the game at first, which is a whole different kind of mess up that shouldn't have happened and has a lot to do with outsourcing of certain elements of the development).
I like to refer to the corporate as TPTB |(The Powers That Be), which I picked up years ago in a non-gaming media. And it never has a good connotation because they never do have the end consumer in mind, only the bottom line. It's, unfortunately, something that's been happening for a long time and just keeps getting worse.
To clarify: I'm not either excusing it or existentially accepting it as inevitable in terms of it never changing again. Just being aware of the probable (very likely) reasons behind what's ultimately business decisions.
Honesty would indeed be nice, I agree. Indie games, where the creators and owners are not quite as bound by the "think of the bottom line" restrictions, tend to be a lot more forthright about the ability and limitations of their product. In a way, I guess I'm resigned to a degree of "it is what it is" when it comes to that: a straightforward "no" is always seen as a failure in those kind of circles (EA, other big producers, big companies in general), for all the wrong reasons.
I agree about the game's origin. However, despite that well known 'secret', the origin of the game and the sudden change of horses midstream has not stopped EA reps from continuing to sell TS4 as the best of an impressive bunch. If it can't accomplish the foundational mechanics that older games have been able to manage or replace them with something better, it really isn't.
The continued dishonesty is as disheartening as the lack of substantive gameplay. That's why I decided to start focusing on indie games and leaving so-called AAA games alone. The Sims series is the last one that I've stubbornly tried to hold onto. Yet, I don't hold much hope for this installment or any installment in the future.
I have learned to take life one day at a time and not try and predict future anything. What ever happens is going to happen anyway regardless of what most people do seeing we are the consumer - not the creators or owners of the companies doing the work and providing the incomes to get things done. Sure we can quit - that is our choice or we can accept what is offered and move on. Worrying about any of it really does not change a thing - especially when we are not running the show. The most we can hope for is stay in the game and try to help mold at least some of what we hope for. Quitting is not a good solution.
Cloud gaming is the direction many of the big companies are aiming for - they have been talking about it for years now and moving in that direction. I feel if we want to keep gaming - like it or not that will end up our destination sooner or later.
I disagree with the idea that there is nothing that we, as consumers, can do. Consumers built this industry. We can also starve it.
I foresee that, rather than being forced to play cloud-based games, people will start moving more towards indie games or raiding bargain bins and eBay for older titles that have cracks and patches to allow them to work on present-day OS's. Or, in order to get their gaming fix, folks might start dusting off those old PCs and boxed games that they've had stocked away in attics or basements.
I'd give up gaming on PC altogether if it meant having to be constantly attached to the internet and having someone else in total control of my saves and/or gameplay. Especially since I'm the kind of player that really enjoys the added dimension that mods can bring to a game.
I've been gaming for some forty years. However, gaming isn't everything. If I have to give it up in favor of an old or a new hobby, I'll be sorry to see it go, but so be it.
Comments
To me, some of the criticism I see about TS4 falls into the category of "reaching" (not anyone's specific criticism and by far not all of it). It can get to the point where everything is proof that the game is bad, even things that are simply not enjoyable to someone.
@JoAnne65 For the sake of everyone who is missing the gameplay elements that Carl (and others) mentioned, I really hope the devs will take a hard look at it and work on them. (full disclosure: I don't think they're unaware and I think it's a bit more complicated than "the devs don't care", considering the history of TS4)
If that's not possible, then hopefully TS5 will come and be able to implement all the aspects that players enjoy, from gameplay through CAS and build features and mechanics, all the way to the option of micromanaging and storytelling. For me personally, the big thing about the next game would be options. Being able to set up the game to what each person wants, being able to carry those settings over, maybe having core setups to choose from when starting a new game.
I do enjoy the game's mechanics now, more than I find the need for them to change, but I do understand that they're not for everyone (and I really dislike anyone who tells others what they should enjoy, on both extremes of the spectrum). I might not want to play the game as a challenge all the time but it should have that option for those who do.
I'm a hopeful person by nature, sometimes to my detriment, really, but I genuinely think there's still a chance to make those changes happen. What I also hope is that Maxis will do it in a way that doesn't just flip a switch and take away what we have now. (how, I believe, it happened with Vampires after complaints about too much intrusiveness in the other worlds). Granted, it's the easier way to just tweak those things than it is to add a new layer. But both the devs and some of the players need to stop being so terrified of options. There are so many that wouldn't even be that hard on machines but would add so much to gameplay - random events, autonomous occult appearances outside of their worlds, stronger responses to events from the Sims.
So for me it's definitely a case of still having hope because that's how my brain is wired.
(at the same time, I'm genuinely terrified that the next iteration will be Freeplay 2.0, along with microtransactions and tons of pointless decor. Here's hoping that the shuffling of that over to Firemonkeys means that it won't be the case)
(apologies about the rambling and if this doesn't make complete sense. it's been a long day of arguing with trying to get TS4 to even work, thanks to Mac updates
You are right that on social media people often are more concerned about their side "winning" than anything else, but I don't really see that going on here. If Sims 4 were to release a patch which vastly improved the emotion system and gave actions consequences, if done well I'd be overjoyed.
I think a good example of this is toddlers. People were mad that there were no toddlers in the game, and people talked about it and were angry about it until toddlers were released. After they were released, it became a non-issue. People who wanted them were very, very happy now that they were in the game, and generally not looking to find fault with them. Now, there were people who didn't really want toddlers who were then annoyed, but given how well done the toddlers were and how easy they are to avoid, that faded quickly.
I don't think Sims 5 will be Freeplay 2.0 because, well, they have two mobile games already and they apparently do quite well but they have a huge market in the PC market as well which also is very, very profitable. They don't really gain anything by having another mobile game supplanting the more complex PC/console game. I have my own ideas about what Sims 5 may be like, but they're just guesses. I do think they will be releasing on console as well as pc which means it won't be released until the next generation of consoles, and if they're not a launch title, then they will wait for a couple of years for the consoles to get established. Or who knows -- maybe I'll be playing Sims 5 on a tablet, but I doubt it.
Indeed, they can’t please everybody, that’s a given. But call me a hopeful person too, I actually think it is possible to develop a Sims like game that will keep different types of players satisfied. There is a reason Sims 2 is considered the pinnacle in general, even though I myself favour Sims 3 I can perfectly understand why. Because that game got the life simulation aspect best and at the end of the day that’s what simmers want. If only they could do that with open world or at least open neighborhoods (larger ones). And CASt... But I’m convinced, even though I complain about closed neighborhoods and a lack of customization abilities, I could perfectly live with that if the sims themselves and the gameplay (basegame mechanics) would be better.
The whole "winning" mentality isn't as strong here on the forums, I agree, though I do see signs of it at times, unfortunately. Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive to is since I had some rather epically bad experiences with it in the not-so-distant past. Some of it (for me) would be comments in the lines of "well, I know this is going to be bad" before we know anything about content that's coming. Along with "if X doesn't contain this thing, I'm not going to touch it" (paraphrasing here, obviously). But again, not as much of that on here as it would be elsewhere on social media.
Another thing is when something gets added, like the staircase tool, and you'll see responses like "yeah but it's not spiral staircases so what's the point".
As for the TS5/Freeplay thing, I didn't mean that it would be a mobile game. I meant more the way content is added: challenges and events that require constant play and legitimately timers to be able to hit the right marks, the store that offers tiny overpriced bundles of items, etc. Basically microtransactions and an in-game currency that pushes people into spending way more money than they need to.
I do think the tablet option is a possibility though, considering how much they can handle nowadays and how gaming is evolving. It would be interesting for sure, though I'd kind of hope, instead of optimizing for that kinda use (touchscreen, significantly lower specs) that they'd bring *some* aspects to tablets and make it a bonus rather than a standalone platform for the whole game.
Okay, gotcha. Yes, there are people who think their preferences are objective facts, and once you run into that, there's no point of further discussion.
My guess with Sims 5, along with what I said earlier, is that you're right. It will have a store much like the Sims 3, but that store will be in-game. I also think they are looking hard at Sims 3 because of its continued success and popularity despite there being a newer game which will tick off many Sims 4 players. The game I am hoping for will have the depth of Sims 2 sims, the depth of Sims 3 worlds and customization, and maybe the accessibility of Sims 4 -- and all of that on a stable foundation. However, I already know that's not the game I'm going to get.
That's not your imagination.
Huh? What's not my imagination?
Attempting objectivity by stating opinions that don't sit well with those who "care" the most.
Just to clarify, I think part of the "they can't" is due to TS4's initial setup, which I think is part of why some things are either hard to do or flat out impossible. And well, the issues with that are a whole different discussion (look, I like the game, but I'm aware of its start and how it was supposed to be something else - something that I hope they'll never consider again, thank you very much).
I've got to admit that I do like the worlds the way they are, to a point. I would like if the neighborhoods within the worlds were open, but if there are loading screens between neighbourhoods and worlds (as long as they stay as short as they are, which for me is a "can't get up to grab my drink from 5 feet away" moment lol) then I'd be cool with that.
The way the worlds we have are so varied is a thing I do love a lot. So in terms of that, for the next one: worlds with open neighborhoods and more individual lots would be, for me, the best option.
I think I'm a little afraid of open worlds because of the demand on the systems. Now, I'm not going to wildly wave the flag of "please let this run on 10yo machines" but it would be nice to not *need* a gaming rig to play the game.
They've got 4 versions under the belt now, if they have learned the lesson of "MMO isn't the way", then hopefully they'll know to pick and choose from the best parts of each of them and combine that into something great. Like I said, hopeful person.
What I find frustrating is that, if the game isn't capable of accomplishing certain things, why not say so?
Just as an example: when Seasons was about to launch, the word went out that there would be no depth to the snow. The rep said that it wasn't because the engine couldn't handle the snow, it simply didn't look satisfactory. To me, that smacks of spin. If it were only a matter of aesthetics, why hasn't the snow been fixed yet? Furniture has improved, the ball pit was fixed STAT. Likewise, the counters in IL were fixed as soon as there was a disquieting rumble amongst the Game Changers. So, what happened to the snow?
The reps keep touting that TS4 has the best engine within the entire series, smarter Sims, actual emotions (as if the series never had that before) and yet, the things that have been staples of the series have turned out to be too difficult, too costly, or whatever the reasoning is for any given issue.. If this is supposed to be a much better engine that makes creating easier, why is that?
All I ask for is honesty. Being forthright gets you a lot more leeway than 'Yeah, we can do it' then not coming through. EA/Maxis used to be a really honest company that told the community when there were problems and everyone celebrated together when/if the problem was solved.
The corporate "character" (at the moment, I can't think of the phrase that I really want to use) is very different now. Nowadays we get 'We want it to be the best that it can possibly be, using the hallmark function that is the basis of the game'. Nearly six years later, you get the lounge chair that does no such thing. It's dishonest.
But thanks you Uzone have proven to me that I can't see you as a fan just as much as you can't see me as a fan either and that you did exactly this, "It's seen as as opportunity for the same cast of characters to tear it down point by point until that person just goes away". No I'm no more important than anyone else and that you and others think that about me or any EA Game Changer shows a huge amount of insecurity both personally and financially. You are just as guilty with the EAAbuse and EAListen movement telling others to "just go away" and "vote with their wallet", so I guess thanks for supporting that *shrugs*. Thanks for not talking about the Sims 4 game or trying to sell it to others. With your efforts Sims 5 may come sooner so keep it up. You are free to praise or criticize products beyond just the Sims all you want. Thank you Felicity and darrenfroggy for posting about the game and wanting the Sims future to be bright. I've enjoyed your posts.
@JoAnne65 Yeah I never understood the need to be in a bandwagon and agree that social media has little room for those that want to be in the middle. I guess that is why people tell me to go away so often. I would hate to be an extreme fan or critic, because I have seen how often it flip flops back and forth with people. Let's just enjoy our safe spot in the middle.
Okie Dokie
I wasn't properly clear, I apologize.
What I was talking about wasn't the underlying engine and what it can and cannot handle in terms of things like snow depth or multitasking or world sizes (because yeah, there are definitely things that should work better).
I meant the initial code which, as far as I'm aware, has been repurposed from what was initially supposed to be an MMO game which would have a whole different base - there's a vast difference between a game that expects constant player input and doesn't have the mechanics at the core for autonomous story progression for NPCs (and even played Sims) when none of them were originally *meant to* have that ability.
The fact that that's what, supposedly, happened is why I can see them not admitting it. That move (I mean, someone could prove me wrong if that's not what happened but everything in the game tells me it was) was absolutely a bad one.
Using your examples though: there's a difference between fixing something that is purely aesthetic like the design of a specific item and something that would affect a much bigger amount of things in the game: animations in the deeper snow, interaction with existing objects etc. The engine making things easier doesn't mean everything is easy. (and for what it's worth, I think the counter thing was a case of the wrong items being put into the game at first, which is a whole different kind of mess up that shouldn't have happened and has a lot to do with outsourcing of certain elements of the development).
I like to refer to the corporate as TPTB |(The Powers That Be), which I picked up years ago in a non-gaming media. And it never has a good connotation because they never do have the end consumer in mind, only the bottom line. It's, unfortunately, something that's been happening for a long time and just keeps getting worse.
To clarify: I'm not either excusing it or existentially accepting it as inevitable in terms of it never changing again. Just being aware of the probable (very likely) reasons behind what's ultimately business decisions.
Honesty would indeed be nice, I agree. Indie games, where the creators and owners are not quite as bound by the "think of the bottom line" restrictions, tend to be a lot more forthright about the ability and limitations of their product. In a way, I guess I'm resigned to a degree of "it is what it is" when it comes to that: a straightforward "no" is always seen as a failure in those kind of circles (EA, other big producers, big companies in general), for all the wrong reasons.
*not just referring to Sims here
I know I was thinking Sims CM posting thinking of just the Sims 4 ended up being for the mobile division. I don't think there is any iteration where Simmers were ready to move onto the next iteration. To me I have been with the Sims games long enough that five years was always the norm with how long Sims games lasted. It is a concept that newer Simmers haven't experienced yet. So it is like ok Sims 4 has covered pretty much all the themes past iterations have covered and with many Simmers claiming they don't play or that game changers don't play occult, development seems done. So maybe it isn't hope I have lost but the realization that Sims 4 has run its course and done its 5 years. It is no longer a baby Sims game anymore. What is in there now is what we got and with performance issues maxing out on several computers, not like current players can handle more DLC on their computers anyways. With more DLC will come more bugs as Gurus have pointed out in interviews and of course will take up more memory on computers. I can run all 3 Sims games fine on my gaming rig, but learning majority cannot afford to. How much more DLC can they afford if their computer house is already maxed out? Why I hope the Sims 5 moves into cloud based gaming. It will save the Sims having performance issues and take out the limits that Sims can only run on one device at a time.
Sure, a lot more people have online access these days than 5 years ago but there are still a lot of people with two issues: no coverage for access that would allow cloud gaming and providers who make that access impossible due to its cost.
In an ideal world, with Net Neutrality (which is a whole different conversation that doesn't belong here, so I'm not going to get into it) being the norm, cloud gaming would be great. As it is, it's likely to make a game as inaccessible as requirements that are too high for anything but gaming rigs.
It's a fine balance to aim for, honestly, when it comes to being accessible to players who are and aren't hardcore gamers (unless, of course, they choose to only target one side of the spectrum).
To touch on the other part of your post: the scary thing is that nowadays there are too many people who put too much weight on being right, even when they know they're not. In all sorts of discussions and situations, not specific to gaming or politics or anything else.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming
So someone could game with their cellphone on a Wi-Fi spot in public. I know Africa has much cheaper data plans than the USA so Sims could open up so much more worldwide. Sims 4 isn't no internet access at all either. You still need internet to access the Gallery and the patches. But imagine being able to game on your tv, mobile device, console or computer and have it run just as good and look as good on any of those devices. It is still in beta mode of course but it will be game changing when it takes off and becomes mainstream. VR gaming could even be possible for Sims at a cheaper rate being able to play it on mobile, but I hope that they do allow it to turn on and off like first person view for the Sims 4. So no you won't need an expensive gaming rig or internet connection. You could even play in between classes at university. Facial recognition software and procedural generated worlds could also benefit the franchise too and cut EA production costs down.
Cloud based game will make me not be a consumer. I hate the forced online way of gaming, and that is exactly what cloud gaming is. I always have and always will prefer physical copies of my game. By the way, Sims 4 can already run on multiple devices at the same time. All you need to do is have all the computers play offline. My family does that with all our games about 99.9% of the time.
Actually, I don't how to articulate the point I'm trying to cross.
If the next (hopefully there is a 5) version of The Sims becomes cloud or on line only that will be the day I no longer invest in the Sims franchise.
Scobre - I think people need to keep separate the dislikes they have in the game with the people disliking those things. I know a lot of people here I do respect very much - you are one of those and like a lot - but I do not always agree with everything these people say any more than I am sure many do not agree with me. It does not keep me from liking that person or respecting how they personally feel about something.
I think more people need to look beyond opinions, or likes and dislikes and remember we are talking to real people - none of which had anything to do with making the game or creating the angst involved. Something that may bug me might not bother someone else and I need to find that okay and not a reason to add to the problem but don't let it color how one feels about the person saying it.
That is like some people have been fit to be tied over the lounge chair where as the lounge chair does not phase me at all. I never have sims sitting in them even - as my sims do not really lounge around on the beach anyway. I play a more action game where my sims are always doing things and exploring something - but that does not mean it does not drive that other simmer nuts. I know nothing I could say would make it better anyway - seeing i obviously do not really care about the lounge chair.
I really can't offer any solutions on either side of your your talking points - other than whether people agree or disagree about what ever it is in the game - keep in mind it is a game and we are all real people and try not to hate on each other because of something in the game. Most simmers are nice people no matter what just some get more passionate in their feelings about the game at times. It is good not to let that color how you the person feels about that person. I honestly like your posts - you say things that make me think - keep posting and sharing.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
Some of that sounds intriguing, sure. But personally I have zero interest in investing in a game that the company has that much control over. Cloud-based anything has the disadvantage of the company having free reign to pull the plug whenever they please on whomever they please. While right now I can go offline and keep playing my game as much as I want and only sacrifice new content and patches, with cloud gaming, what happens if their servers go down? What happens when there are political tensions between countries?
I think a big warning sign is what happened with Adobe products just recently: they pulled the plug on every user in a country due to politics.
Another is the shaky backup solutions with other cloud-based software (Cloudflare goes down and half the internet is broken).
I know the software world is heading in that direction. For me, there are just too many potential downsides to it for now.
I have learned to take life one day at a time and not try and predict future anything. What ever happens is going to happen anyway regardless of what most people do seeing we are the consumer - not the creators or owners of the companies doing the work and providing the incomes to get things done. Sure we can quit - that is our choice or we can accept what is offered and move on. Worrying about any of it really does not change a thing - especially when we are not running the show. The most we can hope for is stay in the game and try to help mold at least some of what we hope for. Quitting is not a good solution.
Cloud gaming is the direction many of the big companies are aiming for - they have been talking about it for years now and moving in that direction. I feel if we want to keep gaming - like it or not that will end up our destination sooner or later.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
I agree about the game's origin. However, despite that well known 'secret', the origin of the game and the sudden change of horses midstream has not stopped EA reps from continuing to sell TS4 as the best of an impressive bunch. If it can't accomplish the foundational mechanics that older games have been able to manage or replace them with something better, it really isn't.
The continued dishonesty is as disheartening as the lack of substantive gameplay. That's why I decided to start focusing on indie games and leaving so-called AAA games alone. The Sims series is the last one that I've stubbornly tried to hold onto. Yet, I don't hold much hope for this installment or any installment in the future.
I disagree with the idea that there is nothing that we, as consumers, can do. Consumers built this industry. We can also starve it.
I foresee that, rather than being forced to play cloud-based games, people will start moving more towards indie games or raiding bargain bins and eBay for older titles that have cracks and patches to allow them to work on present-day OS's. Or, in order to get their gaming fix, folks might start dusting off those old PCs and boxed games that they've had stocked away in attics or basements.
I'd give up gaming on PC altogether if it meant having to be constantly attached to the internet and having someone else in total control of my saves and/or gameplay. Especially since I'm the kind of player that really enjoys the added dimension that mods can bring to a game.
I've been gaming for some forty years. However, gaming isn't everything. If I have to give it up in favor of an old or a new hobby, I'll be sorry to see it go, but so be it.