Interesting video. These are things many of us pointed out way back in 2014. My own thread written back then of why all Sims are the same is buried here somewhere. Emotions are often given to any Sim and the same result or buff as any Sim with a particular trait. Both Sims would wish for the same thing. Behave the same way. Also, Skills over lapped with any emotion and or trait producing the same wish of what to do next and the very same buffs.
There haven't been any new buy rewards in years, either. Extra trait rewards are one of the most ignored features and not many added since release. They are the same base game rewards we had in 2014. I can't go along with remaning tense to uncomfortable over and over.
I like Carl, I'm glad he made the video, but I do want to ask Carl why it took him so long. Because at one point if you were a member on Carl's site you were not allowed to be negative about TS4 at all. I wonder what changed since I know of people who got the boot for being or expressing a negative view of the base, or any DLC.
He didn't touch upon how the past few years Maxis is rehasing and reusing assets already in the game, slapping a new DLC name on them and sellig a new pack with the very same objects, objectives or reused rewards, or interactions or rewards as 'new'. Nor how many times Maxis is reusing an object (the Sim pc) to meet the requirements of how to fill the duties of any at home career or 99% of all other careers. Nor the fact Maxis created a magic pack that barely adds in any new gameplay (assets rewards) that don't already exist in the game (spell potions) Sims could already earn with points to get those mood solvers.
He doesn't touch upon the fact none of the traits (as shallow as they are) don't even make sense. The evil Sim being the most obvivous by wanting to be best friends with someone they supposedly can't stand and reach out to give them a hug. Or why good Sims would ever autonomously perform rude introdcutions. Or why any Sim telling a lame joke would suddenly be awarded a skill point in charisma.
Half the Sim population can gain charisma without even trying.
The overlaps are unbearable to me and have been since day one. I wrote an very long thread pointing out how Sim A, B and C could have all the same emotions, whims, and behave the same based upon gaining a skill, or being in a room of decor, or gaining a cooking skill etc. Let alone the fleeting emotion overridden by any decor (no matter how cheap) could be a mood solver. Why bother earning mood boosters (points), or for that matter casting spells if it's all already in game.
It's my opinion this far out, (five years going on six) the core is the biggest problem this game ever had, and no, though I'm sure he wants improvements, these are things we asked for in 2014 and every year since, and it's not going to be improved with any new pack or patch, and time to hang it up (players) and just hope TS5 with a different vision of what makes a good life simulator (no moodlets and buffs) is where they go the next time and return to their roots rather than trying to include every type person on earth, but consider life isn't so simple.
ETA: If he needs other examples of what we mean when we say shallow. Look at gameplay of groups. Book clubs are the sum of get a book throw it down get another book. Wow, that's some deep gameplay right there, and no one building relationships though they were in the book club for years. This is only one of ten thousand examples of shallow, hollow gameplay.
ETA: More interactions that make no sense. Why can any Sim talk about their latest book when they haven't even written one, nor have they even praticed writing? If any Sim has the trait that makes them work out they don't really need it do they? Any Sim can inspire granny to get on her all fours and do some pushups. Heck, any object or aura or object can make granny do some workout routines. Any Sim feeling romantic can influence any other Sim to flirt with all in room and become romantic. Why bother watching a romantic station when the Sim standing beside your Sim can arouse your Sim into flirting and cheating with whomever is near by. Flaws in trait behaviour. Does a jealous person run around wanting to talk to their love interest twenty four seven? I don't think so, they are jealous of outside influences, such as other Sims and or wondering what the other person is doing, jealousy isn't Needy, it's envious. And one would think they would know where there is envy and strife there is every evil work, (but not in TS4) but no matter, the jealous Sim is still going to chat it up with the cheating parties, and have a good time as a threesome in a relatioship.
Then let's look at romantic interactions between a married couple. Sometimes it was like watching an old rerun of the 🐸🐸🐸🐸 Van 🐸🐸🐸🐸 Show or I Love Lucy. When TV wouldn't allow couples to sleep in the same bed. But had twin matching beds. Or later, they were in the same bed but you could see they couldn't cross an invisble line to cuddle etc. But we can see the dividing line of the TS4 bed. Is that watered down for a reason, or just poor bed design? We will never know, but Sims don't even cuddle in bed in TS4 or spoon or do anything other than give each other highfives. It's like a return to an old Lucy show.
Post edited by Cinebar on
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
The answer doesn’t lie in what can be done to this game, it lies in what can and will be done in the next. Sims 4 = Sims 4 and Sims 4 will always be Sims 4. People seeing it the way described in the video indirectly are just saying this: stop developing for Sims 4 and start developing Sims 5, using our suggestions. And please don’t just listen to gamechangers suggestions, also listen to paying customers that, in spite of not having a huge YouTube following, most definitely are committed to the franchise.
I understand what you are saying....but I do believe this game can still be updated to be much better and fully enjoyable, the devs just have to want it. A game is a game, it's code, they can add an entirely new wants system to this, they can at least make it work better and change what makes whims pop up, they can make relationships deeper, they can improve the AI, etc.
I’m just really having a hard time to believe that but who knows I’m wrong and it is actually the devs being unwilling to make those adjustments necessary. Because wouldn’t it come down to that? They know how it works, a lot of them worked on the earlier games. They know how it has to be done, they know the issues simmers are having with this version, so, why don’t they? I fear because they can’t, because the game is what it is and they have to work with that (like Sims 3 had its clear limits and even though they tried to cater fans requesting things, they just couldn’t in the same way players were used to in Sims 2). I don’t believe they are unwilling, I fear they are incapable.
The answer doesn’t lie in what can be done to this game, it lies in what can and will be done in the next. Sims 4 = Sims 4 and Sims 4 will always be Sims 4. People seeing it the way described in the video indirectly are just saying this: stop developing for Sims 4 and start developing Sims 5, using our suggestions. And please don’t just listen to gamechangers suggestions, also listen to paying customers that, in spite of not having a huge YouTube following, most definitely are committed to the franchise.
I understand what you are saying....but I do believe this game can still be updated to be much better and fully enjoyable, the devs just have to want it. A game is a game, it's code, they can add an entirely new wants system to this, they can at least make it work better and change what makes whims pop up, they can make relationships deeper, they can improve the AI, etc.
I’m just really having a hard time to believe that but who knows I’m wrong and it is actually the devs being unwilling to make those adjustments necessary. Because wouldn’t it come down to that? They know how it works, a lot of them worked on the earlier games. They know how it has to be done, they know the issues simmers are having with this version, so, why don’t they? I fear because they can’t, because the game is what it is and they have to work with that (like Sims 3 had its clear limits and even though they tried to cater fans requesting things, they just couldn’t in the same way players were used to in Sims 2). I don’t believe they are unwilling, I fear they are incapable.
I don't think it's so much a matter of can't or don't want to as lower priorities. The amount of changes needed is -in total- probably at least a game pack, if not a full expansion pack, worth of programing and interface adjustment. All done for free, because they'd have to be released as patches. That's time and resources that they can, and presumably have been, spending on new game packs or expansion packs, and making money for EA/Maxis... who pays their salary. Like with most things, it really comes down to money.
Let's face it, most of these issues aren't actually bugs. Despite some people's experience to the contrary, they are features that would be nice, but aren't strictly needed for many - I might even dare to say most - people to enjoy the game as is. (I'm sure the number of people who want, or would at least appreciate these changes is actually pretty high. Those people just either aren't active on forums/twitter or else don't see it as something important enough to be worth speaking up about. As with anything, the vocal minority is often a fairly tiny fraction of the actual market.) The team at Maxis needs to produce stuff that will sell more than they need to add free features and enhancements that may - no, will introduce new bugs that they'll then have to spend more time fixing that could be spent perhaps testing the next paid expansion.
The answer doesn’t lie in what can be done to this game, it lies in what can and will be done in the next. Sims 4 = Sims 4 and Sims 4 will always be Sims 4. People seeing it the way described in the video indirectly are just saying this: stop developing for Sims 4 and start developing Sims 5, using our suggestions. And please don’t just listen to gamechangers suggestions, also listen to paying customers that, in spite of not having a huge YouTube following, most definitely are committed to the franchise.
I understand what you are saying....but I do believe this game can still be updated to be much better and fully enjoyable, the devs just have to want it. A game is a game, it's code, they can add an entirely new wants system to this, they can at least make it work better and change what makes whims pop up, they can make relationships deeper, they can improve the AI, etc.
I’m just really having a hard time to believe that but who knows I’m wrong and it is actually the devs being unwilling to make those adjustments necessary. Because wouldn’t it come down to that? They know how it works, a lot of them worked on the earlier games. They know how it has to be done, they know the issues simmers are having with this version, so, why don’t they? I fear because they can’t, because the game is what it is and they have to work with that (like Sims 3 had its clear limits and even though they tried to cater fans requesting things, they just couldn’t in the same way players were used to in Sims 2). I don’t believe they are unwilling, I fear they are incapable.
I don't think it's so much a matter of can't or don't want to as lower priorities. The amount of changes needed is -in total- probably at least a game pack, if not a full expansion pack, worth of programing and interface adjustment. All done for free, because they'd have to be released as patches. That's time and resources that they can, and presumably have been, spending on new game packs or expansion packs, and making money for EA/Maxis... who pays their salary. Like with most things, it really comes down to money.
Let's face it, most of these issues aren't actually bugs. Despite some people's experience to the contrary, they are features that would be nice, but aren't strictly needed for many - I might even dare to say most - people to enjoy the game as is. (I'm sure the number of people who want, or would at least appreciate these changes is actually pretty high. Those people just either aren't active on forums/twitter or else don't see it as something important enough to be worth speaking up about. As with anything, the vocal minority is often a fairly tiny fraction of the actual market.) The team at Maxis needs to produce stuff that will sell more than they need to add free features and enhancements that may - no, will introduce new bugs that they'll then have to spend more time fixing that could be spent perhaps testing the next paid expansion.
That would come down to being unwilling then, having other priorities. I’m not a developer so I have no idea obviously, but I genuinely thought they just can’t make those adjustments or they would. If they can and turn the basegame into something good they’d even win me over. Because the basegame and the sims and how they act are my main problem with the game. Is it just a vocal minority, are you sure? Even gamechangers are joining in now.
The answer doesn’t lie in what can be done to this game, it lies in what can and will be done in the next. Sims 4 = Sims 4 and Sims 4 will always be Sims 4. People seeing it the way described in the video indirectly are just saying this: stop developing for Sims 4 and start developing Sims 5, using our suggestions. And please don’t just listen to gamechangers suggestions, also listen to paying customers that, in spite of not having a huge YouTube following, most definitely are committed to the franchise.
I understand what you are saying....but I do believe this game can still be updated to be much better and fully enjoyable, the devs just have to want it. A game is a game, it's code, they can add an entirely new wants system to this, they can at least make it work better and change what makes whims pop up, they can make relationships deeper, they can improve the AI, etc.
I’m just really having a hard time to believe that but who knows I’m wrong and it is actually the devs being unwilling to make those adjustments necessary. Because wouldn’t it come down to that? They know how it works, a lot of them worked on the earlier games. They know how it has to be done, they know the issues simmers are having with this version, so, why don’t they? I fear because they can’t, because the game is what it is and they have to work with that (like Sims 3 had its clear limits and even though they tried to cater fans requesting things, they just couldn’t in the same way players were used to in Sims 2). I don’t believe they are unwilling, I fear they are incapable.
I don't think it's so much a matter of can't or don't want to as lower priorities. The amount of changes needed is -in total- probably at least a game pack, if not a full expansion pack, worth of programing and interface adjustment. All done for free, because they'd have to be released as patches. That's time and resources that they can, and presumably have been, spending on new game packs or expansion packs, and making money for EA/Maxis... who pays their salary. Like with most things, it really comes down to money.
Let's face it, most of these issues aren't actually bugs. Despite some people's experience to the contrary, they are features that would be nice, but aren't strictly needed for many - I might even dare to say most - people to enjoy the game as is. (I'm sure the number of people who want, or would at least appreciate these changes is actually pretty high. Those people just either aren't active on forums/twitter or else don't see it as something important enough to be worth speaking up about. As with anything, the vocal minority is often a fairly tiny fraction of the actual market.) The team at Maxis needs to produce stuff that will sell more than they need to add free features and enhancements that may - no, will introduce new bugs that they'll then have to spend more time fixing that could be spent perhaps testing the next paid expansion.
Some things aren't that costly as they seem....adding sim bios for example would go a long way and it's just some UI in CAS and live mode with a text box, going through the trait exclusive moodlets and optimising their value to be more impactful is something else they could easily do for a better gameplay experience.
This video sums up my issues with this game perfectly. I'm glad someone from the game changers finally focused on gameplay rather than just build mode. More people who have at least some influence should speak up more about it. The only other one i've seen mention it is Plumbella.
Have a super fantastic awesome splendid amazing day! -TheQxxn
The answer doesn’t lie in what can be done to this game, it lies in what can and will be done in the next. Sims 4 = Sims 4 and Sims 4 will always be Sims 4. People seeing it the way described in the video indirectly are just saying this: stop developing for Sims 4 and start developing Sims 5, using our suggestions. And please don’t just listen to gamechangers suggestions, also listen to paying customers that, in spite of not having a huge YouTube following, most definitely are committed to the franchise.
I understand what you are saying....but I do believe this game can still be updated to be much better and fully enjoyable, the devs just have to want it. A game is a game, it's code, they can add an entirely new wants system to this, they can at least make it work better and change what makes whims pop up, they can make relationships deeper, they can improve the AI, etc.
I’m just really having a hard time to believe that but who knows I’m wrong and it is actually the devs being unwilling to make those adjustments necessary. Because wouldn’t it come down to that? They know how it works, a lot of them worked on the earlier games. They know how it has to be done, they know the issues simmers are having with this version, so, why don’t they? I fear because they can’t, because the game is what it is and they have to work with that (like Sims 3 had its clear limits and even though they tried to cater fans requesting things, they just couldn’t in the same way players were used to in Sims 2). I don’t believe they are unwilling, I fear they are incapable.
I don't think it's so much a matter of can't or don't want to as lower priorities. The amount of changes needed is -in total- probably at least a game pack, if not a full expansion pack, worth of programing and interface adjustment. All done for free, because they'd have to be released as patches. That's time and resources that they can, and presumably have been, spending on new game packs or expansion packs, and making money for EA/Maxis... who pays their salary. Like with most things, it really comes down to money.
Let's face it, most of these issues aren't actually bugs. Despite some people's experience to the contrary, they are features that would be nice, but aren't strictly needed for many - I might even dare to say most - people to enjoy the game as is. (I'm sure the number of people who want, or would at least appreciate these changes is actually pretty high. Those people just either aren't active on forums/twitter or else don't see it as something important enough to be worth speaking up about. As with anything, the vocal minority is often a fairly tiny fraction of the actual market.) The team at Maxis needs to produce stuff that will sell more than they need to add free features and enhancements that may - no, will introduce new bugs that they'll then have to spend more time fixing that could be spent perhaps testing the next paid expansion.
Everything you said is true, and that's the issue. It should be done in patches and for free.
They advertised a game (at the beginning) that was about the sims themselves and how "cool" and "different" and "wacky" they were. They were supposed to be intuitive too. It was their excuse too when they were asked where the toddlers, basements, pools and ghosts were at launch... they were all backburner because they were focusing on making these sims unlike any of the others and bigger and better personalities. They are actually none of those things, and the least personal of any of the sims installments. (Which is why likely they've changed their song and dance to "creative space" and "safe space"). A lot of this stuff could be addressed and fixed, they just won't/don't either because of money (like you said) or they put it lower priority because there are mods out there that do fix most of these issues too. (Why fix something people paid you for when someone else fixed it for you for free?)
And no, like you said, a lot of what we're asking for here isn't needed, but it sure would be nice since that was what was advertised on the box.
My first experience with the Sims ended up with my Sim being in such a catastrophic state that I couldn't get him to do anything.
To make matters worse it was my "Self Sim" (Something all Simmers do sooner or later no?)
The thing is...I didn't know anything about the Sims. I bought the game from a bargain bin. loaded and started playing.
From that perspective you might have a better appreciation for the difficulty of the game if you don't live under the hood.
This place (our beloved forum) is one massive spoiler.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.
To me the main issue is the lack of personality in the sims 4. The trait system would be fine if we also had a personality system, like sims 2, where you can vary widely on certain personality categories like outgoingness, neatness, kindness, etc. Right now we just pick 3 traits and that's suppose to be our sims personality. It was either here or on that videos comments but someone said that some traits don't even makeup an actual personality. Like you can have a sim who is a cat lover, a dance machine, and a vegetarian. That's not a personality. Those are just characteristics.
Some traits are actually good for personalities like Evil, Neat, Jealous.(although this trait only seems to work for relationships, I believe.) But the trait system is so weak, as stated in the video, it makes what little personality our sims may get pointless.
I desperately want them to overhaul this aspect of the sims 4 but I don't even think its possible. That's basically asking them to make a completely new game 5 years after it launched.
My first experience with the Sims ended up with my Sim being in such a catastrophic state that I couldn't get him to do anything.
To make matters worse it was my "Self Sim" (Something all Simmers do sooner or later no?)
The thing is...I didn't know anything about the Sims. I bought the game from a bargain bin. loaded and started playing.
From that perspective you might have a better appreciation for the difficulty of the game if you don't live under the hood.
This place (our beloved forum) is one massive spoiler.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.
I get that too. It happened to me in the beginning and it likely happened to most of us. Thing is, once you learn (and it doesn't take that long) there's nothing left anymore. Part of the fun, at least for me is the learning and the challenge. You clearly found it a challenge at the beginning and you're still here. Making it a wee harder with some consequences wouldn't chase most away.
I once started playing both Sims 1 and Sims 3 like a blank page, not active on any forum back then. Playing Sims 1 resulted in an always hungry and angry sim living in a house covered in flies, for Sims 3 nothing bad happened to my sims. Sims 3 and 4 just really are easier to play.
I feel that’s not the kind of easy or hard he’s referring to though. I agree with every syllable in this video, he sums up perfectly why I stop playing each and every time I retry. Every idea he presents is exactly what the game would need to pull me in, I’m just seriously sceptical though if this is possible for Sims 4. Because one of the problems is that they hardly added any new goals or challenges in packs. They can’t change that I presume because that’s not basegame.
I absolutely love his ideas for relationships, but can that really be done for Sims 4? The game gets buggier and buggier with each patch and addition as it is, why would that be any different if they’d start messing with the basegame mechanics (that are so totally needed, couldn’t agree more, also where it comes to the emotions). I also love what he says from 22:00 on. How people have expressed their issues and reasons to quit playing. Here’s a gamechanger who actually sees and hears and acknowledges us, ‘normal’ players, giving us a voice. The voice we simply deserve. I also love how he adresses the happy people, telling them that even though they may not miss depth in the game, there are other groups out there who do. Being happy with Sims 4 the way it is doesn’t make you right. It just makes you lucky.
I stick to my opinion they better take all of his ideas, ALL of them, and start developing Sims 5 with that in mind. Doing it to Sims 4 will be nothing but damage control and I just can’t help being sceptical if they can do that without piling up more bugs.
And if they do manage to add all this to Sims 4? They’ll find a new buyer/player in me.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.
WDYM?
Somebody said, that if you want Sims to hold any significant visible two-dimensional, you'll have to:
- utilize the character value (from PH) system, so they grow up with positive/negative value traits.
- Expose them to fame, making them celebrate for the sake of giving them personality.
- Vampify them, for the same reason as above.
As an example from the same, the customization given with these system are powerful enough to make their identify be distinguish from others. You can have a vampire with wholesome powers and repulsiveness over blood lust, raised to be well mannered and sympathetic. Or make the opposite one that's corrupt vampire, with hostile powers and "uncontrollable hist" that causes other Sims to hate him in story sense, raised to cuss others and apathetic with narcissistic kind of attitude, and as a result as a celeb gets all bad press (reputation). Now compare this kind of customization than just assigning a Sim with "good" or "evil". All your Sim will be able to do is donate money that's pretend-your-giving as a money sink or receive under-rewarding +1 happy trait for doing bad deeds. That's how far the base game alone is deep in that department.
If they want to 'fix' TS4, all they have to do is look at the big mod 99% of TS4 hard core fans are using. It solves many problems with too many happy points from decor...borrow their code, it keeps Sims at "Fine" instead of happy all the time (Why do TS4 players actually want to keep their Sims at fine, too happy? as I have been complaining about for five years?) and borrow that code from the modder, and it does a lot of different things about culling...(again why do TS4 players who think the game is perfect need culling tweaked?) and borrow that code.
That would solve many things that turn off someone like me who plays/played a vanilla game. It's funny to me those who are using the big, game changing mods (to make it more like TS2 and TS3) are the very people saying this is the best game ever. Obvivously not. Or no need for such a big, game changing mod.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I'm not quite sure which mod you are talking about, @Cinebar.
I'm using Shimrods happybuffschangedtofine mod and additionally one of my own mods that tunes down the positive moodlets from eating (lesshappyfoodanddrink). Both are very small mods that seldom need an update at all and they make a big difference.
I'm also using a mod to overhaul the whim system (whimoverhaul) - which is a little bigger, but actually mostly using ressources EA could tweak themselves with little effort if they chose so instead of breaking the whim system.
All of these are simple tuning mods. If the team would focuss on actually checking how different modders approach the core (and even minor) problems af this game, they would definately be able to fix a lot of the current problems without too much effort.
Nevertheless, I'm not 100% sure if it is the majority of players that wants a more challenging gameplay. If that were true UI cheats extensions surely would not be as popular as it is. Dragging needs up whenever you feel like it and/or getting rid of negative moodlets by a simple mouse click is not what I'd personally call challenging game play.
Now now EA, don't be stinking up our lovely lavender bath with your shopping fart. - My TS4 mods - Gallery ID: 83bienchen
I'm not quite sure which mod you are talking about, @Cinebar.
I'm using Shimrods happybuffschangedtofine mod and additionally one of my own mods that tunes down the positive moodlets from eating (lesshappyfoodanddrink). Both are very small mods that seldom need an update at all and they make a big difference.
I'm also using a mod to overhaul the whim system (whimoverhaul) - which is a little bigger, but actually mostly using ressources EA could tweak themselves with little effort if they chose so instead of breaking the whim system.
All of these are simple tuning mods. If the team would focuss on actually checking how different modders approach the core (and even minor) problems plum this game, they would definately be able to fix a lot of the current problems without too much effort.
Nevertheless, I'm not 100% sure if it is the majority of players that wants a more challenging gameplay. If that were true UI cheats extensions surely would not be as popular as it is. Dragging needs up whenever you feel like it and/or getting rid of negative moodlets by a simple mouse click is not what I'd personally call challenging game play.
The ability to drag needs up can be useful on occasion, that's what cheats are for. But the ideas for more challenging gameplay Carl describes go far beyond and much deeper than need bars.
I say yes absolutely to everything he has said. Really I love this game but it has so much potential to have more added to the base game. There’s been plenty of videos out there made touching this very subject and nothing has been done.
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.
The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).
What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.
I'm not quite sure which mod you are talking about, @Cinebar.
I'm using Shimrods happybuffschangedtofine mod and additionally one of my own mods that tunes down the positive moodlets from eating (lesshappyfoodanddrink). Both are very small mods that seldom need an update at all and they make a big difference.
I'm also using a mod to overhaul the whim system (whimoverhaul) - which is a little bigger, but actually mostly using ressources EA could tweak themselves with little effort if they chose so instead of breaking the whim system.
All of these are simple tuning mods. If the team would focuss on actually checking how different modders approach the core (and even minor) problems plum this game, they would definately be able to fix a lot of the current problems without too much effort.
Nevertheless, I'm not 100% sure if it is the majority of players that wants a more challenging gameplay. If that were true UI cheats extensions surely would not be as popular as it is. Dragging needs up whenever you feel like it and/or getting rid of negative moodlets by a simple mouse click is not what I'd personally call challenging game play.
She's probably referring to roBurky's "Meaningful Stories." I use it, and while it doesn't really give the sims much personality, it's definitely far, far better than the vanilla system.
Edit: I also use your whimsoverhaul. It is such an improvement. Thank you for it.
AGREED, It's a very insightful video about how Sims4 gameplay could be vastly improved for a better gaming experience. I was also surprised to learn from commenters how Sims2 and Sims3 was better in area of Sim traits, whims, memories, and story progression than in Sims4. I wish EA would see those videos.
Always be your unapologetically and authentic self
I'm sort of curious, what were the original aspirations like? When were they changed? ^^; I only hopped into the game during Dec of 2015, so it was probably before then..
I'm sort of curious, what were the original aspirations like? When were they changed? ^^; I only hopped into the game during Dec of 2015, so it was probably before then..
I don't remember too many of them, but for instance, the soulmate one, it had a part where you had to insult your sim's spouse while angry. Given the emotion system, it was almost impossible to do, even with a room of angry paintings. Then on the final one, you had to do 200 romantic interactions instead of 50.
They were more interesting at the start. But one thing I disagree with with Carl here -- the aspirations of Sims 4 are not the equivalent of the lifetime wish of Sims 3. Aspirations are instead like the skill challenges in Sims 3, but with fewer rewards.
My first experience with the Sims ended up with my Sim being in such a catastrophic state that I couldn't get him to do anything.
To make matters worse it was my "Self Sim" (Something all Simmers do sooner or later no?)
The thing is...I didn't know anything about the Sims. I bought the game from a bargain bin. loaded and started playing.
From that perspective you might have a better appreciation for the difficulty of the game if you don't live under the hood.
This place (our beloved forum) is one massive spoiler.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.
I get that too. It happened to me in the beginning and it likely happened to most of us. Thing is, once you learn (and it doesn't take that long) there's nothing left anymore. Part of the fun, at least for me is the learning and the challenge. You clearly found it a challenge at the beginning and you're still here. Making it a wee harder with some consequences wouldn't chase most away.
Agreed. As Carl suggested, adjustable difficulty settings would go a long way toward solving the problem.
If they were smart what they would do is set up a challenge engine, that not only allows the players to set up specific conditions that can't be altered on that save file, but also incorporates some of the awesome challenges set up by the community in a structured way that would allow more game play oriented Simmers a way of proving they didn't cheat.
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.
The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).
What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.
Funny, because I actually felt very much supported in that part of his video (and I’m not even part of such a group; I love building, I love storytelling and I love gameplay, I really divide my time in that respect, in Sims 3 that is). The way I interpreted it, is that what he means there is: the fact you are happy with the game the way it is doesn’t mean you’re right. And that is very much the atmosphere, at least on these forums. Don’t like the game? Well I love it so go play something else, bye bye. For me that’s exactly the attitude he adresses here in a very respectful, friendly manner. And that attitude very much needs to get some attention, because it’s not Carl who’s pitting players against each other. Players are doing that themselves, constantly.
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There haven't been any new buy rewards in years, either. Extra trait rewards are one of the most ignored features and not many added since release. They are the same base game rewards we had in 2014. I can't go along with remaning tense to uncomfortable over and over.
I like Carl, I'm glad he made the video, but I do want to ask Carl why it took him so long. Because at one point if you were a member on Carl's site you were not allowed to be negative about TS4 at all. I wonder what changed since I know of people who got the boot for being or expressing a negative view of the base, or any DLC.
He didn't touch upon how the past few years Maxis is rehasing and reusing assets already in the game, slapping a new DLC name on them and sellig a new pack with the very same objects, objectives or reused rewards, or interactions or rewards as 'new'. Nor how many times Maxis is reusing an object (the Sim pc) to meet the requirements of how to fill the duties of any at home career or 99% of all other careers. Nor the fact Maxis created a magic pack that barely adds in any new gameplay (assets rewards) that don't already exist in the game (spell potions) Sims could already earn with points to get those mood solvers.
He doesn't touch upon the fact none of the traits (as shallow as they are) don't even make sense. The evil Sim being the most obvivous by wanting to be best friends with someone they supposedly can't stand and reach out to give them a hug. Or why good Sims would ever autonomously perform rude introdcutions. Or why any Sim telling a lame joke would suddenly be awarded a skill point in charisma.
Half the Sim population can gain charisma without even trying.
The overlaps are unbearable to me and have been since day one. I wrote an very long thread pointing out how Sim A, B and C could have all the same emotions, whims, and behave the same based upon gaining a skill, or being in a room of decor, or gaining a cooking skill etc. Let alone the fleeting emotion overridden by any decor (no matter how cheap) could be a mood solver. Why bother earning mood boosters (points), or for that matter casting spells if it's all already in game.
It's my opinion this far out, (five years going on six) the core is the biggest problem this game ever had, and no, though I'm sure he wants improvements, these are things we asked for in 2014 and every year since, and it's not going to be improved with any new pack or patch, and time to hang it up (players) and just hope TS5 with a different vision of what makes a good life simulator (no moodlets and buffs) is where they go the next time and return to their roots rather than trying to include every type person on earth, but consider life isn't so simple.
ETA: If he needs other examples of what we mean when we say shallow. Look at gameplay of groups. Book clubs are the sum of get a book throw it down get another book. Wow, that's some deep gameplay right there, and no one building relationships though they were in the book club for years. This is only one of ten thousand examples of shallow, hollow gameplay.
ETA: More interactions that make no sense. Why can any Sim talk about their latest book when they haven't even written one, nor have they even praticed writing? If any Sim has the trait that makes them work out they don't really need it do they? Any Sim can inspire granny to get on her all fours and do some pushups. Heck, any object or aura or object can make granny do some workout routines. Any Sim feeling romantic can influence any other Sim to flirt with all in room and become romantic. Why bother watching a romantic station when the Sim standing beside your Sim can arouse your Sim into flirting and cheating with whomever is near by. Flaws in trait behaviour. Does a jealous person run around wanting to talk to their love interest twenty four seven? I don't think so, they are jealous of outside influences, such as other Sims and or wondering what the other person is doing, jealousy isn't Needy, it's envious. And one would think they would know where there is envy and strife there is every evil work, (but not in TS4) but no matter, the jealous Sim is still going to chat it up with the cheating parties, and have a good time as a threesome in a relatioship.
Then let's look at romantic interactions between a married couple. Sometimes it was like watching an old rerun of the 🐸🐸🐸🐸 Van 🐸🐸🐸🐸 Show or I Love Lucy. When TV wouldn't allow couples to sleep in the same bed. But had twin matching beds. Or later, they were in the same bed but you could see they couldn't cross an invisble line to cuddle etc. But we can see the dividing line of the TS4 bed. Is that watered down for a reason, or just poor bed design? We will never know, but Sims don't even cuddle in bed in TS4 or spoon or do anything other than give each other highfives. It's like a return to an old Lucy show.
I don't think it's so much a matter of can't or don't want to as lower priorities. The amount of changes needed is -in total- probably at least a game pack, if not a full expansion pack, worth of programing and interface adjustment. All done for free, because they'd have to be released as patches. That's time and resources that they can, and presumably have been, spending on new game packs or expansion packs, and making money for EA/Maxis... who pays their salary. Like with most things, it really comes down to money.
Let's face it, most of these issues aren't actually bugs. Despite some people's experience to the contrary, they are features that would be nice, but aren't strictly needed for many - I might even dare to say most - people to enjoy the game as is. (I'm sure the number of people who want, or would at least appreciate these changes is actually pretty high. Those people just either aren't active on forums/twitter or else don't see it as something important enough to be worth speaking up about. As with anything, the vocal minority is often a fairly tiny fraction of the actual market.) The team at Maxis needs to produce stuff that will sell more than they need to add free features and enhancements that may - no, will introduce new bugs that they'll then have to spend more time fixing that could be spent perhaps testing the next paid expansion.
The beauty of different opinions! I think anything that allows for maximum choice and accomodation of play styles is good. 🙂
Some things aren't that costly as they seem....adding sim bios for example would go a long way and it's just some UI in CAS and live mode with a text box, going through the trait exclusive moodlets and optimising their value to be more impactful is something else they could easily do for a better gameplay experience.
Everything you said is true, and that's the issue. It should be done in patches and for free.
They advertised a game (at the beginning) that was about the sims themselves and how "cool" and "different" and "wacky" they were. They were supposed to be intuitive too. It was their excuse too when they were asked where the toddlers, basements, pools and ghosts were at launch... they were all backburner because they were focusing on making these sims unlike any of the others and bigger and better personalities. They are actually none of those things, and the least personal of any of the sims installments. (Which is why likely they've changed their song and dance to "creative space" and "safe space"). A lot of this stuff could be addressed and fixed, they just won't/don't either because of money (like you said) or they put it lower priority because there are mods out there that do fix most of these issues too. (Why fix something people paid you for when someone else fixed it for you for free?)
And no, like you said, a lot of what we're asking for here isn't needed, but it sure would be nice since that was what was advertised on the box.
To make matters worse it was my "Self Sim" (Something all Simmers do sooner or later no?)
The thing is...I didn't know anything about the Sims. I bought the game from a bargain bin. loaded and started playing.
From that perspective you might have a better appreciation for the difficulty of the game if you don't live under the hood.
This place (our beloved forum) is one massive spoiler.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.
To me the main issue is the lack of personality in the sims 4. The trait system would be fine if we also had a personality system, like sims 2, where you can vary widely on certain personality categories like outgoingness, neatness, kindness, etc. Right now we just pick 3 traits and that's suppose to be our sims personality. It was either here or on that videos comments but someone said that some traits don't even makeup an actual personality. Like you can have a sim who is a cat lover, a dance machine, and a vegetarian. That's not a personality. Those are just characteristics.
Some traits are actually good for personalities like Evil, Neat, Jealous.(although this trait only seems to work for relationships, I believe.) But the trait system is so weak, as stated in the video, it makes what little personality our sims may get pointless.
I desperately want them to overhaul this aspect of the sims 4 but I don't even think its possible. That's basically asking them to make a completely new game 5 years after it launched.
I get that too. It happened to me in the beginning and it likely happened to most of us. Thing is, once you learn (and it doesn't take that long) there's nothing left anymore.
I feel that’s not the kind of easy or hard he’s referring to though. I agree with every syllable in this video, he sums up perfectly why I stop playing each and every time I retry. Every idea he presents is exactly what the game would need to pull me in, I’m just seriously sceptical though if this is possible for Sims 4. Because one of the problems is that they hardly added any new goals or challenges in packs. They can’t change that I presume because that’s not basegame.
I absolutely love his ideas for relationships, but can that really be done for Sims 4? The game gets buggier and buggier with each patch and addition as it is, why would that be any different if they’d start messing with the basegame mechanics (that are so totally needed, couldn’t agree more, also where it comes to the emotions). I also love what he says from 22:00 on. How people have expressed their issues and reasons to quit playing. Here’s a gamechanger who actually sees and hears and acknowledges us, ‘normal’ players, giving us a voice. The voice we simply deserve. I also love how he adresses the happy people, telling them that even though they may not miss depth in the game, there are other groups out there who do. Being happy with Sims 4 the way it is doesn’t make you right. It just makes you lucky.
I stick to my opinion they better take all of his ideas, ALL of them, and start developing Sims 5 with that in mind. Doing it to Sims 4 will be nothing but damage control and I just can’t help being sceptical if they can do that without piling up more bugs.
And if they do manage to add all this to Sims 4? They’ll find a new buyer/player in me.
Somebody said, that if you want Sims to hold any significant visible two-dimensional, you'll have to:
- utilize the character value (from PH) system, so they grow up with positive/negative value traits.
- Expose them to fame, making them celebrate for the sake of giving them personality.
- Vampify them, for the same reason as above.
As an example from the same, the customization given with these system are powerful enough to make their identify be distinguish from others. You can have a vampire with wholesome powers and repulsiveness over blood lust, raised to be well mannered and sympathetic. Or make the opposite one that's corrupt vampire, with hostile powers and "uncontrollable hist" that causes other Sims to hate him in story sense, raised to cuss others and apathetic with narcissistic kind of attitude, and as a result as a celeb gets all bad press (reputation). Now compare this kind of customization than just assigning a Sim with "good" or "evil". All your Sim will be able to do is donate money that's pretend-your-giving as a money sink or receive under-rewarding +1 happy trait for doing bad deeds. That's how far the base game alone is deep in that department.
That would solve many things that turn off someone like me who plays/played a vanilla game. It's funny to me those who are using the big, game changing mods (to make it more like TS2 and TS3) are the very people saying this is the best game ever. Obvivously not. Or no need for such a big, game changing mod.
I'm using Shimrods happybuffschangedtofine mod and additionally one of my own mods that tunes down the positive moodlets from eating (lesshappyfoodanddrink). Both are very small mods that seldom need an update at all and they make a big difference.
I'm also using a mod to overhaul the whim system (whimoverhaul) - which is a little bigger, but actually mostly using ressources EA could tweak themselves with little effort if they chose so instead of breaking the whim system.
All of these are simple tuning mods. If the team would focuss on actually checking how different modders approach the core (and even minor) problems af this game, they would definately be able to fix a lot of the current problems without too much effort.
Nevertheless, I'm not 100% sure if it is the majority of players that wants a more challenging gameplay. If that were true UI cheats extensions surely would not be as popular as it is. Dragging needs up whenever you feel like it and/or getting rid of negative moodlets by a simple mouse click is not what I'd personally call challenging game play.
Enjoy my creations!
The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).
What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.
She's probably referring to roBurky's "Meaningful Stories." I use it, and while it doesn't really give the sims much personality, it's definitely far, far better than the vanilla system.
Edit: I also use your whimsoverhaul. It is such an improvement. Thank you for it.
I don't remember too many of them, but for instance, the soulmate one, it had a part where you had to insult your sim's spouse while angry. Given the emotion system, it was almost impossible to do, even with a room of angry paintings. Then on the final one, you had to do 200 romantic interactions instead of 50.
They were more interesting at the start. But one thing I disagree with with Carl here -- the aspirations of Sims 4 are not the equivalent of the lifetime wish of Sims 3. Aspirations are instead like the skill challenges in Sims 3, but with fewer rewards.
Agreed. As Carl suggested, adjustable difficulty settings would go a long way toward solving the problem.
If they were smart what they would do is set up a challenge engine, that not only allows the players to set up specific conditions that can't be altered on that save file, but also incorporates some of the awesome challenges set up by the community in a structured way that would allow more game play oriented Simmers a way of proving they didn't cheat.