Quality is still good. Is there room to improve? Always. The Sims is fine. Maxis is fine. If you are bitterly dissatisfied, I recommend a long break, because you are burnt out on it.
Sims has always been inclusive and diverse. However, I think Maxis is highlighting it now trying to draw in new players. But in many ways, highlighting diversity makes it seem like the default really is white, male, CIS, straight and deviating from that needs to be mentioned. There are a lot of games that are inclusive, though, that don't draw attention to it. Probably not enough of them, but I'm all for as much diversity as possible in games because it makes the settings more interesting and more real. However, if you have to call attention to it, you're doing it wrong.
That sounds a lot like "I don't mind gay people, so long as they keep it to themselves".
Maxis has made, what 3 same sex premade couples in 20 years, and two trans/nonbinary premades? And as far as I know, none of those were announced or specifically made a big deal of. Players discovered them. It wasn't "Cats, Dogs, and A Gay Male Couple". Players had to speculate about Morgyn Ember in advance of RoM, because Maxis just put him in the trailers without comment. They are doing it the way you think they should, but you don't give them credit for it.
Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Edit: *snip huge wall of text* I used a lot of words to basically say:
I get the impression, and I could be wrong, that Maxis has been using inclusiveness and diversity as advertising material. I don't really go out of my way to see the advertising or trailers, so I could be wrong. If the issue people are having is that there are gay/trans people in their games and that's the complaint, there are lots of things they can do in their own games which is far more reasonable than just not wanting other people to have representation.
I think Sims should be inclusive, but it should be the game play which gets the attention. Diversity should just be a given.
Yes, absolutely. I say the franchise is over. The most I can see happening that's good for the series is a remaster of TS2 and that's it. In terms of entirely new games, (TS5, TS6 and so on) I highly doubt those games will be any better and it's for the simple reason that EA and Maxis have set up a system where they are able to create half-baked content for a half-baked game and they're still able to profit of it because the players are still hoping that the next bit of DLC will solve the game's lack of creativity, innovation, and freedom. Then the next bit of DLC arrives, it fails to do just that, and players are left hoping once more. As long as players are caught in this vicious cycle, EA and Maxis knows they can profit from it and they clearly have.
Now fortunately, I keep seeing more and more people, people that claim to even love TS4, starting to say that they're becoming tired of the game because it's shallow, repetitive, and uninspiring. For me, this is a step in the right direction and I would love it if either:
TS5 completely turns it around, which I highly doubt since the series has been dying since Will Wright left. I love TS3, don't get me wrong, but while I've never played it, everybody seems to agree that TS2 was the best in the series.
TS5 completely bombs with terrible sales.
I don't want the series to die, but if TS5 bombing is what it takes to give the developers a wake up call, then I'll take it. Oh and for some reason, TS4 is a platform for social and political agendas/ideas, etc. As another user pointed out, "a game terrified of offending anyone". Which is yet another reason why the quality of TS4 is so low. It focuses more on ensuring nobody's poor little feelings are hurt rather than actually being a good life simulation game and that EVERYBODY is included and that everybody is pleased. It's a goal that's not only unrealistic, but that being the priority is what is beating this already decomposed horse of a game.
For me, S4 is over unless they update base game sim behaviour- traits/whims etc, because atm it's repetetive and boring. The gameplay aspect is unfortunate, because there's potential for a good game underneath all the visuals. S4 has made some improvements on its predecessors, such as stability, vampires, and clubs, but they're all severely set back, imo, due to the actions of the sims themselves.
I (naively) have a little bit of hope that they will fix it (because even if S5 is the best ever, I won't be able to afford it at launch), especially now since game changers are talking about s4 critically. I'm holding out for s5 though, but have low expectations. I think the base game will definitely include toddlers, pools, better swatches etc. but I'm doubtful in terms of gameplay content, due to EA's preference for 'live-service' gameplay, and how they are real keen to push online-only and 'social' games (🤢).
When you are in the process of it, it's often hard to tell whether something is dying or changing. I expect the franchise as such to exist for a long time, as there is nothing indicating to me that EA is deliberately running it into the ground. They may end up doing that, but they don't seem to be actively trying to.
Of course if it changes too much from what you enjoy, the difference between changing and killing something is moot.
Computer rpgs were dying, then Baldur's Gate came around and "saved" the genre, although not in a way I liked.
Fire Emblem was expected to die, then Awakening revitalized the series, but for a different audience, yet I'm very much on board with the new direction (extreme niche example, sorry, but despite the differences in community size the discourse is about the same).
Sims 3 wasn't my sims anymore; I stayed for WA, returned briefly for Ambitions, then turned back to Sims 2 until Sims 4 won me over. The "dead game" actually re-activated me as a purchaser.
There's plenty they could do but the problem is that they're breaking down old expansions to give us new ones and still lacking features. If they're not going to give us all the supernaturals in one pack like with 3, then they should have more features.
I no longer have hope for Sims 4 but Sims 5 is (probably) coming and can change everything
I have no hope left for TS4.
Though I'm hoping they make The Sims 5 and it will contain everything we loved from the previous games all into one game. Mostly, I want TS5 to be like TS2 with TS4 graphics, with new content.
There was stuff I liked in TS3 but it was too laggy (open world, colour wheel) and the sims were ugly looking.
I really really want there to be TS5 in the making! Cause I just can't support TS4 anymore.
Is the sim franchise dead? Nope. I doubt we will ever see it's death in our lifetimes, it's just too good, flaws and all. Quality... it's better and worse than it was. Each iteration has brought different game play and features to the table, along with different bugs and glitches. We will always have bad with the good with this series. You can't possibly play test for every combination of packs a person might have along with their computer system with so many variants in chip sets, graphics cards, ram etc.
That said though, I do feel as of lately, the packs are lacking. So much potential, just silly little things really that should not have been missed, such as the counter in IL or the missing door in ROM. You compare basegame house furnishings, (or even early packs) to houses coming in packs now and wow... they might as well just give us the shell and let us furnish them, or leave the lots empty.
Considering EA's mentality on 'surprise mechanics', and other similarly disgusting practices, I really can't see the Spirit behind what made The Sims great, showing in any future game.
Hey folks, you're welcome to continue discussing this but let's leave it out with inappropriate comparisons. I've removed a comparison that was really not an appropriate comment to make on the forum.
I no longer have hope for Sims 4 but Sims 5 is (probably) coming and can change everything
I think the lack of quality is because they are focusing on quantity over quality.
The reason why is probably because they are preparing for the future. New consoles are predicted to be announced the next year with new tech so they probably don't want to change the sims4 too much. I think they are focusing their development on other projects, one of them will probably be the sims5.
I think the sims4 will keep getting DLC like this until Maxis will announce their next game.
It is not dead... yet.
The game is more fun to me than sims 3 ever was (personal preference, no need to start a comparison to convince me.) but there is definitely room for improvement. I have a feeling the developers are really out of touch with a big part of the simmers.
The game can be saved, but only if they start paying attention to what simmers have to say. And doesn't mean offer every possible content we beg for but making sure the things they do deliver are of good quality. For example , Dropping the ball on the build of one house is understandable but every house in a pack or regularly across several packs is not ok. It gives the impression they don't care because they assume we won't notice. And this is just one detail. And please do some proper playtesting so you don't need emergency patches.
This is a very difficult discussion. On the one side I have loved the Sims series since The Sims 1. My love only deepened with the Sims 2 but I ardently fought against getting Sims 3 for years. I finally broke and I fell in love all over again and did the same thing with Sims 4. Fought against it but gave in much much after. Yes there is the other hand I mentioned. So many faults and lack of player focus, and well you kind of summed it up quite aptly. I mean sure I love that they put so much effort into vampires to give them a perk tree and make them more involved but at the same time, where are the werewolves? the fairies? Servobots. I don't know for all the faults of the series I wanna think things will go in the right direction eventually.
Sims 4 is incredibly underwhelming for what you would expect from a Sims game. I stopped buying it. I may or may not reconsider it again at 50% off. I am a completist, but sometimes you have to make a change.
Quality is still good. Is there room to improve? Always. The Sims is fine. Maxis is fine. If you are bitterly dissatisfied, I recommend a long break, because you are burnt out on it.
Sims has always been inclusive and diverse. However, I think Maxis is highlighting it now trying to draw in new players. But in many ways, highlighting diversity makes it seem like the default really is white, male, CIS, straight and deviating from that needs to be mentioned. There are a lot of games that are inclusive, though, that don't draw attention to it. Probably not enough of them, but I'm all for as much diversity as possible in games because it makes the settings more interesting and more real. However, if you have to call attention to it, you're doing it wrong.
That sounds a lot like "I don't mind gay people, so long as they keep it to themselves".
Maxis has made, what 3 same sex premade couples in 20 years, and two trans/nonbinary premades? And as far as I know, none of those were announced or specifically made a big deal of. Players discovered them. It wasn't "Cats, Dogs, and A Gay Male Couple". Players had to speculate about Morgyn Ember in advance of RoM, because Maxis just put him in the trailers without comment. They are doing it the way you think they should, but you don't give them credit for it.
Comments like this are why they have to keep taming the game. @Felicity said nothing of the sort. People are a bit too sensitive these days. Good grief.
I guess I'm an outlier as I don't think the game has really declined from the last three versions, and objectively it works better on my computer than any of the previous versions. It's focus has merely shifted from a domestic life simulator to a more general dollhouse simulator. If you go into it expecting the former, you will probably be disappointed. I've played all four versions of the Sims over the years, and I've got to say, the Sims 4 is the only version that's retained my interest for more than a couple years. It's very versatile, and I can play stories I would never have attempted in the previous versions.
Looking at some of your points:
- The huge stepback regarding the better older versions (Sims 2 for gameplay and quality and Sims 3 for innovations) SM4 also brings a lot of new innovative systems that previous versions didn't touch like clubs, vampire/spellcaster perks and spellbook, calendar/holidays, etc.
- A crazy number of DLCs that lead to additional DLCs I'm not sure what you're saying here. You don't like all of the DLC? And the only DLC for DLC we have gotten so far is MFPS. If we're talking money grabbing, I'd like to introduce you to the SM3's store where you could pay 10 bucks for a single furniture set. Today's stuff packs are a deal in comparison.
- Empty expansion packs (Island Paradise, I’m looking at you) I think it's an exaggeration to call this pack empty. There's actually quite a lot to do and I haven't even explored all of it yet. Do I wish there were active diving lots? Sure. But empty? Naw. As for other EPs I'd say they are actually going up in quality compared to GTW, even if their themes aren't always my cup of tea.
- Bugs that never get fixed This is a problem for every game, and fortunately SM4 is still actively being worked on, so there is hope.
- Half-baked content (the retail system, tiny worlds, no underwater lots, MERMAIDS, off the grid…) For the most part this is subjective preference. I'll give you the retail system, but just because a world is small doesn't make it half-baked (except Del Sol Valley, that world is a bit sad). Underwater lots, again would be nice, but they just chose to explore island life in a different way than SM3. Mermaids I'd say are twice as good as the ones from Island Paradise and are better thought out (as an occult add on to a pack) than aliens by far.
- Complete lack of innovation, creativity and passion Again see my first point. I think they've introduced many innovative systems that people will be complaining aren't included in a future SM5 game.
I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but what will improve the game is up to personal taste. Some want freed babies, others better personalities, and still others would get angry if they did update those. In the end I would say that if you don't currently like the base, there is no hope for the SM4 for you, but personally I love the game and don't see the decline so many of you see.
At this point, I don't expect much from TS4. I take it for what it is. I know it will never match the quality of the older games, so I don't even get my hopes up for future content. Yes, I buy all packs with the exception of supernatural content. I can usually entertain myself because I have such a huge imagination, but even still, there are far too many shortcuts, half-done features, and empty gameplay. If I did not use cc and practical mods that fix bug issues and make little things like having better butlers, nannies, auto thermostats, less computer, no auto dancing, NPC workers that don't stop working when a 5 star celeb is around, Sims not going crazy and passing out over celebs, sleeping all night, skate everywhere, etc the game would be less playable for me. Beyond NRAAS, I didn't have a need for other mods in TS3. But with TS4 just to keep your Sims from being annoying, mods are needed and other bugs.
eta meant to add that the only way for the franchise to go in is to do the exact opposite of ts4 in terms of it intending to be online, limited game engine, supporting lower end pcs, etc. They need to look at the heart of what made Sims so great, the Sims themselves and let them live in their world and respond to their environments without limitations.
Personally I do believe that they could still save sims 4 as I don't really see what's so wrong with it beyond the way things are implemented.
To begin with, there are a lot of good ideas in sims 4, and a lot of potential in sims 4, the problem is that it just frequently seems like for all the good ideas and potential for epic things nothing is ever really fleshed out, it's almost just tacked on.. Which is where things fall apart, they could fix that
But they need to care about doing so
And that's the complicated part, especially with occult sims and the like, it seems to me that they always start off with really good ideas when it comes to occult sims but then aside from vampires and spellcasters they never reallly go anywhere.. and even in those two cases what is there for vampires or spellcasters to really /do/ exactly? Vampires especially can't really easily have jobs unless they become daywalkers and it never really fits if they do imo.. they need occult jobs
It's the same thing for non occults but I'm using that as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with, storytelling in sims 4 tends to fall somewhat flat.. Now I am going to say this I actually love the little story in strangerville, but the problem is that once it's over it's over, if they had new stories after that with more weirdness it would have more playability..
Adding little optional roleplay opportunities across the board that really flesh out worlds in the game and generally just making the worlds feel more alive would go a long way with me personally.
Putting care into the things they add would too, you can kind of see a spark sometimes when the gurus talk about what they are working on, but honestly I think if they added to them and really took the time to fully flash everything out it would go a long way
Life stages, interactions, most everything really, there is a lot of room for them to really make it so that sims as individuals become more defined as people as you push them in a certain direction, rather than being kind of just.. random on their own
The only thing I see that might improve the current lifeless situation is for someone to come along and eat EA's lunch. Sims is a cash cow to feed EA's prime effort of war and sports (civillized and socially acceptable war). What is needed is a game from another company/developer that gives players a serious and in-depth gaming experience and grabs a huge slice of simsian market share. Without feet being held to the fire EA has no motivation to do anything other than what they have been.
Even though EA management are idiots, there are still a great many people who still love the Sims. Eventually, another company will come up with another human simulation game, that focuses more on making a good product and less on bowing down to greedy investors. I am sure they will make a fine living from happy customers. For the time being I will play the Sims 4.
i believe they can improve the gameplay, animations, and fix bugs, but they won't because it'll cost money and time for EA, therefore i don't have hope that it will happen. my thoughts are kind of between two options, basically.
I do not think it is dead just yet but as far adding any of the robust features as editing the neighborhood or addition of lots. editing sizes of existing lots may not be plausible now or even in the future and that for me makes me sad and it just may be over for me. I also think as time goes on and more packs are added. Sims 4 even w/o robust features may hit an roadblock as some felt Sims 3 did. The only way to know for sure is by EA/Maxis keeping us in the loop and informing us upfront of what can be done and not be done and they are not doing it 100%.
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I think the lack of quality is because they are focusing on quantity over quality.
The reason why is probably because they are preparing for the future. New consoles are predicted to be announced the next year with new tech so they probably don't want to change the sims4 too much. I think they are focusing their development on other projects, one of them will probably be the sims5.
I think the sims4 will keep getting DLC like this until Maxis will announce their next game.
No, that's what they used to do - now the focus is on quality over quantity. You should go revisit the earlier Sims games and take a good look at the clothes and how badly they look - now finally the Sims makes a much better quality item....
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
Comments
Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Edit: *snip huge wall of text* I used a lot of words to basically say:
I get the impression, and I could be wrong, that Maxis has been using inclusiveness and diversity as advertising material. I don't really go out of my way to see the advertising or trailers, so I could be wrong. If the issue people are having is that there are gay/trans people in their games and that's the complaint, there are lots of things they can do in their own games which is far more reasonable than just not wanting other people to have representation.
I think Sims should be inclusive, but it should be the game play which gets the attention. Diversity should just be a given.
Now fortunately, I keep seeing more and more people, people that claim to even love TS4, starting to say that they're becoming tired of the game because it's shallow, repetitive, and uninspiring. For me, this is a step in the right direction and I would love it if either:
I don't want the series to die, but if TS5 bombing is what it takes to give the developers a wake up call, then I'll take it. Oh and for some reason, TS4 is a platform for social and political agendas/ideas, etc. As another user pointed out, "a game terrified of offending anyone". Which is yet another reason why the quality of TS4 is so low. It focuses more on ensuring nobody's poor little feelings are hurt rather than actually being a good life simulation game and that EVERYBODY is included and that everybody is pleased. It's a goal that's not only unrealistic, but that being the priority is what is beating this already decomposed horse of a game.
I (naively) have a little bit of hope that they will fix it (because even if S5 is the best ever, I won't be able to afford it at launch), especially now since game changers are talking about s4 critically. I'm holding out for s5 though, but have low expectations. I think the base game will definitely include toddlers, pools, better swatches etc. but I'm doubtful in terms of gameplay content, due to EA's preference for 'live-service' gameplay, and how they are real keen to push online-only and 'social' games (🤢).
Of course if it changes too much from what you enjoy, the difference between changing and killing something is moot.
Computer rpgs were dying, then Baldur's Gate came around and "saved" the genre, although not in a way I liked.
Fire Emblem was expected to die, then Awakening revitalized the series, but for a different audience, yet I'm very much on board with the new direction (extreme niche example, sorry, but despite the differences in community size the discourse is about the same).
Sims 3 wasn't my sims anymore; I stayed for WA, returned briefly for Ambitions, then turned back to Sims 2 until Sims 4 won me over. The "dead game" actually re-activated me as a purchaser.
Though I'm hoping they make The Sims 5 and it will contain everything we loved from the previous games all into one game. Mostly, I want TS5 to be like TS2 with TS4 graphics, with new content.
There was stuff I liked in TS3 but it was too laggy (open world, colour wheel) and the sims were ugly looking.
I really really want there to be TS5 in the making! Cause I just can't support TS4 anymore.
That said though, I do feel as of lately, the packs are lacking. So much potential, just silly little things really that should not have been missed, such as the counter in IL or the missing door in ROM. You compare basegame house furnishings, (or even early packs) to houses coming in packs now and wow... they might as well just give us the shell and let us furnish them, or leave the lots empty.
I agree.
The reason why is probably because they are preparing for the future. New consoles are predicted to be announced the next year with new tech so they probably don't want to change the sims4 too much. I think they are focusing their development on other projects, one of them will probably be the sims5.
I think the sims4 will keep getting DLC like this until Maxis will announce their next game.
The game is more fun to me than sims 3 ever was (personal preference, no need to start a comparison to convince me.) but there is definitely room for improvement. I have a feeling the developers are really out of touch with a big part of the simmers.
The game can be saved, but only if they start paying attention to what simmers have to say. And doesn't mean offer every possible content we beg for but making sure the things they do deliver are of good quality. For example , Dropping the ball on the build of one house is understandable but every house in a pack or regularly across several packs is not ok. It gives the impression they don't care because they assume we won't notice. And this is just one detail. And please do some proper playtesting so you don't need emergency patches.
Comments like this are why they have to keep taming the game. @Felicity said nothing of the sort. People are a bit too sensitive these days. Good grief.
Looking at some of your points:
- The huge stepback regarding the better older versions (Sims 2 for gameplay and quality and Sims 3 for innovations)
SM4 also brings a lot of new innovative systems that previous versions didn't touch like clubs, vampire/spellcaster perks and spellbook, calendar/holidays, etc.
- A crazy number of DLCs that lead to additional DLCs
I'm not sure what you're saying here. You don't like all of the DLC? And the only DLC for DLC we have gotten so far is MFPS. If we're talking money grabbing, I'd like to introduce you to the SM3's store where you could pay 10 bucks for a single furniture set. Today's stuff packs are a deal in comparison.
- Empty expansion packs (Island Paradise, I’m looking at you)
I think it's an exaggeration to call this pack empty. There's actually quite a lot to do and I haven't even explored all of it yet. Do I wish there were active diving lots? Sure. But empty? Naw. As for other EPs I'd say they are actually going up in quality compared to GTW, even if their themes aren't always my cup of tea.
- Bugs that never get fixed
This is a problem for every game, and fortunately SM4 is still actively being worked on, so there is hope.
- Half-baked content (the retail system, tiny worlds, no underwater lots, MERMAIDS, off the grid…)
For the most part this is subjective preference. I'll give you the retail system, but just because a world is small doesn't make it half-baked (except Del Sol Valley, that world is a bit sad). Underwater lots, again would be nice, but they just chose to explore island life in a different way than SM3. Mermaids I'd say are twice as good as the ones from Island Paradise and are better thought out (as an occult add on to a pack) than aliens by far.
- Complete lack of innovation, creativity and passion
Again see my first point. I think they've introduced many innovative systems that people will be complaining aren't included in a future SM5 game.
I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but what will improve the game is up to personal taste. Some want freed babies, others better personalities, and still others would get angry if they did update those. In the end I would say that if you don't currently like the base, there is no hope for the SM4 for you, but personally I love the game and don't see the decline so many of you see.
eta meant to add that the only way for the franchise to go in is to do the exact opposite of ts4 in terms of it intending to be online, limited game engine, supporting lower end pcs, etc. They need to look at the heart of what made Sims so great, the Sims themselves and let them live in their world and respond to their environments without limitations.
To begin with, there are a lot of good ideas in sims 4, and a lot of potential in sims 4, the problem is that it just frequently seems like for all the good ideas and potential for epic things nothing is ever really fleshed out, it's almost just tacked on.. Which is where things fall apart, they could fix that
But they need to care about doing so
And that's the complicated part, especially with occult sims and the like, it seems to me that they always start off with really good ideas when it comes to occult sims but then aside from vampires and spellcasters they never reallly go anywhere.. and even in those two cases what is there for vampires or spellcasters to really /do/ exactly? Vampires especially can't really easily have jobs unless they become daywalkers and it never really fits if they do imo.. they need occult jobs
It's the same thing for non occults but I'm using that as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with, storytelling in sims 4 tends to fall somewhat flat.. Now I am going to say this I actually love the little story in strangerville, but the problem is that once it's over it's over, if they had new stories after that with more weirdness it would have more playability..
Adding little optional roleplay opportunities across the board that really flesh out worlds in the game and generally just making the worlds feel more alive would go a long way with me personally.
Putting care into the things they add would too, you can kind of see a spark sometimes when the gurus talk about what they are working on, but honestly I think if they added to them and really took the time to fully flash everything out it would go a long way
Life stages, interactions, most everything really, there is a lot of room for them to really make it so that sims as individuals become more defined as people as you push them in a certain direction, rather than being kind of just.. random on their own
No, that's what they used to do - now the focus is on quality over quantity. You should go revisit the earlier Sims games and take a good look at the clothes and how badly they look - now finally the Sims makes a much better quality item....
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....