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Max Villareal - Evil or Not Evil?

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ladysweettartladysweettart Posts: 226 Member
I want to hear some opinions. I personally think it's bunk that they gave Max the Evil trait, he has it as a Child, and first of all, my opinion is that no child is truly evil. Secondly, Max has obviously been subjected to some trauma with his mother having died. I personally feel like his acting out is as a result of this. Not to mention I doubt Jacques sought out mental health support for Max during this time (Jacques himself is insane at this point). I truly feel like Max isn't an evil or "bad" child, he's a child who is probably hurting, traumatized, and emotionally neglected (his father is a big wig in the mafia and also insane, how could he provide Max with the nurturing and parental support he needs)?

The other thing is that Max has been nothing but nice to any of my sims in any of my saves. I've even had some of my sims become romantically involved with him in baby challenges, and again, he was nothing but sweet and romantic toward them.

All of this makes me feel like Max isn't truly Evil, but rather has some mental health needs that don't get met, and his actions relate back to that and to his probable desire for attention from his neglectful father (how better to get a criminal father's attention than to try to show him you're as bad as bad comes)? It really makes me wish they included more mental health related traits in the game. I actually now have a soft spot for Max having considered all this and really feel for him. He just always strikes me as someone who just wants someone to love him (as a little boy and as an adult).

I'd be interested to hear what all of you think!
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Comments

  • VamprisVampris Posts: 491 Member
    Personally I think Jacques isn't insane, but rather just weird. He's described as having eccentric habits which makes sense considering he wants to walk around a hedge in knight armor. Plus it's implied that the "death" of his wife hardly changed his kids, the teens are relatively normal and Max is still a "terrifying force of nature". So for all we know she could be a criminal just laying low and occasionally visiting.
    Over all nice theory, it got me thinking.

    also just saying an evil person being nice doesn't exactly mean they aren't bad, same with a good person being rude. Some villains can generally be great people that won't hesitate to hold the door open for someone or help an elderly person cross the street.
    I got two tv tropes if you want to read more on friendly villains and terrible heroes
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  • BoergeAarg61BoergeAarg61 Posts: 339 Member
    I don't think, Max Villareal is evil.

    At least in my game, he has the Evil trait, but is a young adult now with no known enemies. He even has the Good Manners trait.
  • So_MoneySo_Money Posts: 1,985 Member
    edited August 18
    ... my opinion is that no child is truly evil.

    Agree to disagree:

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  • lzbthnndglslzbthnndgls Posts: 164 Member
    Interesting postulation. I think in the game, the evil trait is lacking and only really manifests itself when they're around other sims who are miserable. Then they get the "Happy from being near misery" moodlet. I've played with some supposedly evil vampire sims on full autonomy and that's the only thing that they do. They get happy when others are miserable. Sometimes they laugh maniacally. I think the trait is lacking and when sims, such as NPCs, have autonomy, the trait needs to enable them to be mean, mischievous, and sabotage items. Right now, the Mean trait is worse than the Evil trait.

    Now if we're talking about the Mean trait, those sims I like to delete out of my game because they can't get along with anyone and they put my played sims in a bad mood.

    So in short, I don't think Max is evil in IRL terms. In game terms...it's fuzzy.
    Just started Writing my first Sims 4 Story. Check it out here: Meet Me in the Middle
  • calaprfycalaprfy Posts: 2,025 Member
    Try having a sim with the evil trait also have the negative Parenthood traits. I did once, was a right psycho!
  • OEII1001OEII1001 Posts: 2,687 Member
    100% irredeemably evil; completely past the moral event horizon.
  • mikamika Posts: 1,531 Member
    I'd say he's more of a True Neutral in my game.
  • WaitWhatYTWaitWhatYT Posts: 414 Member
    I aged him up to YA in one save and despite still being evil and following in his dad's criminal work, he's a perfectly amiable young man with plenty of friends. I think his other traits are geek and outgoing, so his friendliness definitely seems to override his awfulness. Like @lzbthnndgls said, Sims evil and RL evil don't really line up that neatly...
  • bellagoth_bellagoth_ Posts: 64 Member
    in almost all my games he's very sociable and chill, though he's mischievous but never in a mean way, sometimes i see him making a mess then instantly cleaning it up lolll, perhaps max got the evil trait to show that he's just a troublemaker kid? (something like bart simpson) i mean ts4 lacks a lot of traits so maybe they just couldn't find a more fitting one
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  • EchovaEchova Posts: 142 Member
    He’s not a real person. He’s a sim.
  • OEII1001OEII1001 Posts: 2,687 Member
    Echova wrote: »
    He’s not a real person. He’s a sim.

    Correct. The question at hand is whether or not this fictional character would be classified as evil or not.
  • telemwilltelemwill Posts: 186 Member
    I have been thinking of giving him a chance of redemption. Like he must complete three good deeds in a certain time period in order to get a more positive trait. But I am torn because I know the game will be more interesting with a few evil characters around.
  • Dust_Bunny2010Dust_Bunny2010 Posts: 91 Member
    He’s the head of a club of maladjusted misfits with members who are far older than him. I don’t know how to feel about that.
  • EchovaEchova Posts: 142 Member
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Echova wrote: »
    He’s not a real person. He’s a sim.

    Correct. The question at hand is whether or not this fictional character would be classified as evil or not.

    He has the evil trait. So he’s evil. I don’t know what’s so hard for the OP to understand lol
  • ChampandGirlieChampandGirlie Posts: 1,077 Member
    Lol, I like open-ended questions like this.

    In my game (anything goes in anyone else's), I've had a lot of fun with the Villareals. My back story is that they are wealthy half-Spanish, half-French aristocrats. (The French fled into Spain in the revolution). Madness runs in the family. Jacques's mother was a fashionable Parisian socialite who didn't have much time for him. His father was a Spanish aristocrat. Jacques was a complete lunatic due to something genetic that pops up every now and again, not each generation. (He's now passed on in my game). The Villareals are an aristocratic family in my game.

    The three children - Hugo, Luna and Max - had the bonding experience of growing up by raising themselves with butlers. The mother died mysteriously when Max was a baby, so yes, there's definitely a sympathetic element there and I haven't made him as evil as the few other evil characters in my game. Those with that trait are inherently manipulative and unsympathetic, but I keep them to a small number in the community. It's not always readily apparent that they are evil and I think that's more realistic. I don't like having many of them in the game.

    Back to the Villareals, I really went back and forth about what to do with Max and how he would be with his brother who is the heir to the fortune. I did decide that Max bonded with his siblings as a child. He also fell in love with Elsa Bjergsen as a teen but abandoned her because he became a vampire and didn't want her to see what he has become. He is always in love with her but he lives on the plasma of beautiful women. Ironically, Elsa is a doctor and dedicated to healing people. She was so sad that Max disappeared (to Forgotten Hollow) but she ultimately moved on and is happily married with a child. Max lives in darkness but has never forgotten about her. Yes, he's jealous of her mortal husband.

    So that's it, I turned him into a vampire the day after his teenage years ended. I downloaded a beautiful Victorian house with a swimming pool that he enjoys at night. He lives alone but he loves bringing in lady sims. He's still a wealthy aristocrat but he's the second son.

    Hugo basically raised his brother and was not shy about providing for the boy with wealth. Max does spend time with his adult brother and sister who haven't figured out the explanation for why he doesn't age or eat and only visits with them at night.

    I've actually had fun with Hugo as well. He inherited his father's fortune but is not mad. He's married a beautiful sim that he fell in love with when she played chess with him. She never tried to catch him for his wealth and is very down-to-earth. She reminds him of their lost mother that he does remember.

    Luna married Sergio who is essentially a wealthy Wall Street type and fastidious Italian. Sergio thinks that Luna is the perfect woman and is dutifully married to her but has lately taken a strange interest in messing around with a woman "from the wrong side of the tracks". He doesn't love her or want Luna to find out, he just likes escaping from responsibility.

    I've played Max a bit less than the others because he doesn't age so I haven't resolved what will happen as he outlives the others that he knows. I don't think he will soften as time passes. He's a cold-blooded vampire which is why Vlad Straud turned him. So far, he's the only one that Vlad was willing to make into a vampire. They're both aristocratic and Vlad finds him to be one of the only sims that he can tolerate in occasional social visits. Vlad remembers his family well from prior centuries. To become a vampire, Vlad has to want to keep you around.
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  • PeppermixPeppermix Posts: 123 Member
    In my save Max is actually a nice guy. I barely notice his evil trait. His girlfriend Olivia Kim Lewis on the other hand.. she’s so rude and mean, but she doesn’t have any bad traits??
  • logionlogion Posts: 475 Member
    I think Max was designed to be the typical bully. He is the leader of a club who is causing mischief and unfortunately, not unlike real life. Bullies are often people who are having problems in the family.

    So yes, I think he is "evil", in that sense that as a kid he is a troublemaker and it is up to the player if that leads to him becoming an evil sim when he grows up.
  • WaitWhatYTWaitWhatYT Posts: 414 Member
    Ironically, Elsa is a doctor and dedicated to healing people.

    ...Kind of OT, but Elsa in my game also grew up to be a doctor. Interesting...
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 86 Member
    edited August 25
    Loving this thread! I also have played extensively with Max and the Villareal family because my first encounter with Max through another Sim meeting him at the pool hangout, involved Max aging up spontaneously into, I kid you not, an Imp from hades. It was a gruesome glitch, and so stunning I took video (now just need to learn how to share such things...it was really spectacular with self-impaling batwing-like fingers, backward-hinged legs, half-height stature, and EYESTALKS. Watching what had moments before been a little boy, turned into something so hideous and yet pathetic, then watching it lie on a bench to sleep from sheer exhaustion, stirred great pity in me, and after that I wanted to get to know Max. So I made an "improved Max Villareal" which was just him, with a style makeover and some decent nutrition so he wasn't so wretchedly scrawny physically, and a better haircut and some decent clothes, and uploaded him to the Gallery too.

    As for evil, I explored what Max was like, and also Wolfgang Munch, and compared that to other characters I had made and played, who were Evil or Mean, or both, and what I found was, an Evil character isn't necessarily Mean. They can be polite, sweet, tender, loving to their children, great spouses...but if they don't have a Mischief aspiration or Criminal career, all their Evilness really amounts to, is occasionally breaking into "Maniacal Laugh...MANIACAL LAUGH!" and getting happy when near someone who is sad or upset or otherwise miserable. So I think of it like the hollywood depictions of mobsters: perfectly nice people so long as you're not their target, and if you are, it's just business, nothing personal.

    After his makeover, I thought he'd make good boyfriend material for my teen Bad Girl Tempest Piper Rich (I included Piper as a throw-out to Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live, because her byline was "I came to chew bubblegum...) but was startled to find Max so...nice.

    So he eventually had a few lovers and a few children, married and then eventually buried, his beloved Morgan Fyres (who was Good, but seemed to have a thing for trying to save Lost Causes, and perhaps wanted to walk on the wild side), and in his old age, newly a widower, sought some comfort from his old compatriot Tempest, who wasn't yet an elder. And they conceived. And it killed Max.

    But his grown son was in the house and pleaded successfully with the Reaper (who was married to Cassandra Goth and had a teen son with her plus another on the way, but that's another interesting story of getting around a patch-out for a desired result), so Max was back, but I am still waiting to see if he survives long enough to see the birth of his child with Tempest Piper Rich. Still on the fence as to whether to give him a Potion of Youth, but it may already be too late as I type this, because I played another household without checking, and he may have died in the meantime.

    Sorry to write so much, but Max Villareal really is a fascinating character, and I'm glad you saw something special in him, too!
    Post edited by Nushnushganay on
    "Common sense and training prohibit me from divulging information for which both the need and the right to know have not been adequately demonstrated" -Redacted
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 86 Member
    Oh, about Max's mother, interesting to see that not everyone assumed what I did, from what the game had to say about their family history. I assumed her husband killed her, and her body is somewhere on the estate. That was my understanding of her "disappearance."
    "Common sense and training prohibit me from divulging information for which both the need and the right to know have not been adequately demonstrated" -Redacted
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 86 Member
    Since I can't append this to a previous comment, please forgive my third post in a row, but another encounter with Max that got me interested in playing with him more fully, was when a younger female Sim went with the ruthless mission of seducing and marrying Max in order to gain his estate...but arrived to a devastating scene that broke her heart and mine. Max Villareal was elderly, and the last surviving member of his family, and when she walked in, he was crying in his bed, in the same room he had lived his whole life in. He was still working part-time at Hamburgerman, had never so much as been kissed, and now had nothing left but a sad group of tombstones on a corner of the grounds, that he went to and wept bitterly beside, every single night. Waiting to join them, I guess. It was so awful. But she went ahead and consoled him the best she could, and managed to seduce him, and found him surprisingly responsive, as if he had been hungering for love his entire life and was all too ready to take it once offered. So I made sure he had a happy ending with a woman who came to manipulate, but stayed to love, honor, and cherish.
    "Common sense and training prohibit me from divulging information for which both the need and the right to know have not been adequately demonstrated" -Redacted
  • sarabeth2984sarabeth2984 Posts: 168 Member
    I actually like the Villareal kids and I hate the idea of a child with the Evil trait. I have one of my favorite couples I put in every save. They are a vampire couple who foster children and live in Brindleton Bay. The last save I had, Jacque was constantly fighting with his children and finally kicked the bucket. Teens Luna and Hugo and Max who was still a child went to live with Harry and Maribel. Harry and Maribel quickly put a stop to the Renegades and made the kids join clubs that were more productive. Hugo lost some weight, got married and had 3 kids, became a famous chef with a thriving restaurant. He inherited the Villareal estate. Luna married Victor and Lily's son and had 4 kids. Max became a straight A student. He developed a very close relationship with his foster parents. I liked him so much I changed the evil trait to self assured. His foster mother turned him into a vampire. He became the leading detective and later married his foster parents daughter.
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 86 Member
    > @sarabeth2984 said:
    >... The last save I had, Jacque was constantly fighting with his children and finally kicked the bucket. ...

    So good that you rescued the kids that way, and nice to hear what a difference it can make! I was afraid to look at how things went for poor little Max in a family headed by Jacque, without intervention. Though I can tell you from having had a Sim go in to meet Max kind of late in the game for Max (he was an elder by then) that the life he seems to lead on his own with no intervention is bleak indeed. Another game, I found Luna regressed (was Childish), Hugo was Mean, and Max was evil but cheerful. The walking wounded, anyway.
    "Common sense and training prohibit me from divulging information for which both the need and the right to know have not been adequately demonstrated" -Redacted
  • ladysweettartladysweettart Posts: 226 Member
    @ChampandGirlie I loved reading what you did with Max, very interesting!!! I never considered him as a vampire but can totally see it!

    @Nushnushganay I loved reading what you wrote, and see that lines up perfectly with what my impression of him has been in my sims' encounters with him. He just always comes across as someone who just wants someone to love and care about him.

    @sarabeth2984 that's awesome, I do believe Max needs something like that to happen, to be taken in by people who will parent him correctly. Luna and Hugo too, but as teens I feel they are a little less vulnerable than Max.

    I really wish the game included more mental health related traits, I really feel something like that would be a more appropriate trait for Max.

    I loved reading that some others don't just look simplistically at him and his family. I definitely feel there's more than meets the eye with the Villareal family!
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  • DeafSimmerDeafSimmer Posts: 892 Member
    I do not think Max is that evil, as his family was sort of broken by his father's wrong choices. I don't think Jacques killed his wife. Rather, I had a theory in which a member of the mafia attacked the wife. Perhaps that is the reason why Jacques is the way he is. I mean, in each save I played, he seems slightly miserable.

    I don't understand why EA chose to give Max the evil trait. Another trait could work better, concerning his background. If he is to be raised by the right people, he may not have a bleak future. The disappearance of his mother and the lack of good parenting from his father may be the reason he is a troublemaker. Deep inside, he wants someone to love him.
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