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Looking Forward To the End Of TS4

Comments

  • DragonCat159DragonCat159 Posts: 1,776 Member
    edited August 10
    Simburian wrote: »

    I don't like the way the developer is being regarded as some sort of Saviour that you all are looking to. It's too big a burden for him and doesn't help.
    On contrary, I think it helps. It's not really burden, more like a support / positive enforcement. The developer does seem to take slowly and spend his time wisely by not being too communicative that would take him from the precious time developing.

    Players are just a happy someone is at least trying to create/offer a competitor. As a collective, people have seem already bound together and do praise him with compliments and supportive words. Heard a few times some people said they're willing to cash over even it doesn't exceed the expectations, probably the very reason I explain: they approve the effort he already is putting in. :) I do agree with you thought. I wouldn't go as to calling him a saviour just yet, despite the current revealed snippets of -16% of the game.
  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 4,706 Member
    Simburian wrote: »

    I don't like the way the developer is being regarded as some sort of Saviour that you all are looking to. It's too big a burden for him and doesn't help.
    On contrary, I think it helps. It's not really burden, more like a support / positive enforcement. The developer does seem to take slowly and spend his time wisely by not being too communicative that would take him from the precious time developing.

    Players are just a happy someone is at least trying to create/offer a competitor. As a collective, people have seem already bound together and do praise him with compliments and supportive words. Heard a few times some people said they're willing to cash over even it doesn't exceed the expectations, probably the very reason I explain: they approve the effort he already is putting in. :) I do agree with you thought. I wouldn't go as to calling him a saviour just yet, despite the current revealed snippets of -16% of the game.

    It probably takes a bit of the heat off EA if those who don't like Sims 4 go elsewhere. It's good for all who like simulation games like this to give EA some competition (could use a stronger word here). :) Might help all of us in the long run. I wish him well.
  • Evil_OneEvil_One Posts: 4,398 Member
    The last time EA was given some competition, (SimCity2013 Vs Cities: Skylines) EA Folded.
    raw
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,475 Member
    edited August 10
    @Simburian , he definitely has a long way to go but seeing the build system alone which EA can't even is truly revolutionary.

    i personally perceive alex masse as 'my saviour' since EA just want me to recide on the pits of hell and giving false hopes and chances of getting out.

    and im gonna stop right here cuz i'd certainly not want some extreme people here to tag the mods just because we're talking about paralives.
    Last time I looked that ‘lot editing’ tweet had over 4000 likes. That tells me something. And yes, there may be some pressure but I believe he’s a professional, professionals can handle pressure I’d hope. And no, there are no guarantees but I love how he seems to understand what we value and I hope that kind of thinking will also concern live mode and the characters of his game. Also I think Paralives is very on topic here, in this place where people are looking forward to the end of Sims 4. Because that doesn’t mean we want it to end as such, as far as I’m concerned they continue developing for it the next ten years. What we are expressing rather is that we are longing for something else, something new, something better.
    Post edited by JoAnne65 on
  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 4,706 Member
    edited August 10
    Evil_One wrote: »
    The last time EA was given some competition, (SimCity2013 Vs Cities: Skylines) EA Folded.

    I still prefer SimCity 4 deluxe even though I have bought and tried both the others. Sometimes it is the simplicity and charm of a game that appeals most in the long run. Sims 2 is the last one that had it for me.

    Wasn't it the lack of servers that KO'd SimCity5? It might have survived as a single player game and not online.

  • andersson01andersson01 Posts: 190 Member
    Sims 3 was so good compared to Sims 4... shame the lag / freeze bug made it unplayable. I can play Sims 3 for hours if I don't get a bad case of freeze lag, but Sims 4 gets boring in 20 mins.

    Missing CASt makes building not fun because you have to compromise with bad colors and nice furnitures, or good colors and ugly furnitures (and / or clothes).

    Sims 3 was a nice "life sim". This is just a glorified mobile game with all the interesting reactions stripped away. And why does everbody smile like the Joker 24/7? >_>
    The world would be a much better place without me... I can't allow that! >:D
  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 10,431 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    Logisitcs wrote: »
    Paralives is Sims 5. I do not trust this team to make a worthy life simulation successor. Their poor uninspired work full of excuses speaks for itself.

    So far we've only been shown build items and lot building. The proof of the pudding will be if he can do his Para's lives' properly. He has a long way to go.

    I don't like the way the developer is being regarded as some sort of Saviour that you all are looking to. It's too big a burden for him and doesn't help.

    In time we will see as there was games developed by one person and it went on to be an bestseller. But as said he has an long way to go and if he does it right he may be an challenge to the Sims and as said he will or may have features that Sims 4 does not even possess. I do not look at him as an saviour but as an person trying to give some of what they really want in an game of this genre just paradox did with Citylines giving players what longed for that Sim City 2013 did not.
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  • playermarko456playermarko456 Posts: 4,927 Member
    edited August 11
    From a technical standpoint, it will be a matter of time before TS4 becomes unplayable. We're currently at nearly 40 GB of content; who knows how much further it will expand to within the next 4-5 years, but it doesn't look good. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if EA/Maxis releases a patch basically allowing us to pick which packs to have enabled/disabled like TS3 because it wasn't intended to have all packs installed. But, isn't that why some of us bought all the packs in the first place?

    Its very apparent that they're milking the game. Get Famous, Citing Living, Get Together, Vampires, and Outdoor Patio are basically TS3 Late Night. So, why am I paying for 5 different packs when I can get all the same content in one?

    But why do people not have an issue with H & M and IKEA, but have an issue with Moschino? Here is the thing, at least H & M and IKEA content at least fits in with the rest of the game and is usable in everyday gameplay, Moschino does not. In TS3, Diesel Stuff Pack looked like really bad CC and lets forget about the atrocity that is Sweet Treats. Those were dark times.
  • LquinnLquinn Posts: 210 Member
    I am not that anxious for ts4 to end, and for ts5 to replace it. I don't expect ts5 to be a better game then 4. EA is moving more and more to an investor serving company. I hope I am wrong, and will be happy if I am, but good games are created by visionaries and large publicly owned companies are about bottom lines and double digit growth.
  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 5,662 Member
    @playermarko456 you are so right on Diesel stuff. I love their clothing in real life, but it looks like they pasted the web images onto meshes and called it a day. It did not look good and it did not fit Sims 3. The furniture even looked like bad CC.. only SP for the game I was really disappointed in (I never bought the KP pack, just her version of Showtime).

    I agree on your other points too.
  • AHolyToiletAHolyToilet Posts: 770 Member
    edited August 11
    From a technical standpoint, it will be a matter of time before TS4 becomes unplayable. We're currently at nearly 40 GB of content; who knows how much further it will expand to within the next 4-5 years, but it doesn't look good. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if EA/Maxis releases a patch basically allowing us to pick which packs to have enabled/disabled like TS3 because it wasn't intended to have all packs installed. But, isn't that why some of us bought all the packs in the first place?

    Its very apparent that they're milking the game. Get Famous, Citing Living, Get Together, Vampires, and Outdoor Patio are basically TS3 Late Night. So, why am I paying for 5 different packs when I can get all the same content in one?

    But why do people not have an issue with H & M and IKEA, but have an issue with Moschino? Here is the thing, at least H & M and IKEA content at least fits in with the rest of the game and is usable in everyday gameplay, Moschino does not. In TS3, Diesel Stuff Pack looked like really bad CC and lets forget about the atrocity that is Sweet Treats. Those were dark times.

    I understand your point, but I only half-agree with the bolded part. While it is true about half the content featured in all of these packs were one pack for TS3, it is still half the content. Late Night for vampires never featured the amount of depth the vampires in TS4 have now and while it is true I've spoken very poorly for the game recently, I can still acknowledge that Vampires was a solid pack and Get Famous has some things going for it. The multiple expanded systems in most of the packs you mentioned would make expansions come out extremely rarely if they were literally all in one and personally, I wouldn't want packs to be exactly like they were in TS3.

    Still, it is a milking of sorts since City Living, Get Together, and Outdoor Retreat (unless you meant Perfect Patio) are all extremely lackluster packs and you're spending way more money on the packs of TS4 than you ever did for TS3, but I blame the game itself for the drawbacks of TS4, not the packs themselves. They just don't address the problem.

    In other words, it's clear to me that TS4 was created as a platform to allow them to create a bunch of lazily created DLC so they can try to coax you into giving them more money for a fun experience than spending all of your money on all of the expansions in TS3 would've. Few of that DLC has some things going for it, but not enough to justify everything else consumers must deal with.
  • HestiaHestia Posts: 1,640 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    Evil_One wrote: »
    The last time EA was given some competition, (SimCity2013 Vs Cities: Skylines) EA Folded.

    I still prefer SimCity 4 deluxe even though I have bought and tried both the others. Sometimes it is the simplicity and charm of a game that appeals most in the long run. Sims 2 is the last one that had it for me.

    Wasn't it the lack of servers that KO'd SimCity5? It might have survived as a single player game and not online.

    Heh. I go back to back between SimCity 4 & Cities: Skylines.
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  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,475 Member
    edited August 11
    @playermarko456 you are so right on Diesel stuff. I love their clothing in real life, but it looks like they pasted the web images onto meshes and called it a day. It did not look good and it did not fit Sims 3. The furniture even looked like bad CC.. only SP for the game I was really disappointed in (I never bought the KP pack, just her version of Showtime).

    I agree on your other points too.
    I have no idea about the brand in real life but my sims often wear Diesel in the game. I love for instance how the jeans actually look like jeans. That indeed doesn’t fit Sims 3 because other pants in the game don’t have that effect, but that’s actually why I love and use the pack. Same goes for the shirts, somehow they look more realistic and even a bit CC like (in a good way) than what we usually got.

    @playermarko456 That ‘you can play with a selection of packs now’ was mainly a way to excuse patch 1.69 no Sims 3 player wanted or needed. I know many players who avoid the patch like the plague.
  • TwicelikeyTwicelikey Posts: 126 Member
    To put it shortly, TS4 is all pretty, no substance. Sure the game is nice to look at, but when it comes to gameplay, it is very lackluster. I have to say that TS2 is and always will be the superior game (in my opinion). Sure, it doesn't have open world or CASt, but what it makes up for is in memorable gameplay.

    If it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there would've never been a TS3 or TS4. EA/Maxis should just stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool for the sake of appealing to young audience members because we've all seen how well that worked out for them. You know how players will say "They never make anything we request from them." Let me rephrase that. They never make old audience members ask of them because from the very beginning, the targeted audience for TS4 have been younger members.

    Well, here is the problem with that. If it weren't for your older audience members, their feedback/criticism, and the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't have been a TS3 or TS4. Oh my, and I thought the Sims was inclusive yet EA/Maxis is abandoning their old playerbase. Not so inclusive now, are we?

    giphy.gif

    This is a bit of flawed logic honestly. Yes, if it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't be a TS3 or TS4. But that does not mean that the older audience is vastly more important than the younger. Don't let that get to your head like it's your way or the highway. Things change with time, so no I wouldn't necessarily say that EA/Maxis should stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool. It's just modernizing the sims. The sims in the past had things relating to what was popular at that time of release. This isn't something new, it's just keeping up with the times.

    As for the whole "They never make anything we request from them". That is a lie. They have in fact made things that people wanted. While it isn't the case 100% of the time. To say "never" is just being purely delusional. You are not being abandoned. I have seen plenty of times where the majority of the community wanted something and got it. Like Seasons for example. But what do I know..I'm just a 22-year-old simmer. I'm not even part of the "old audience".
  • HestiaHestia Posts: 1,640 Member
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  • Evil_OneEvil_One Posts: 4,398 Member
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Have you seen the Paralives Lot editing vid?:


    I've wanted this for so long...

    This is one of those things I was talking about when I said I don't understand how certain things haven't been done in The Sims series yet. He keeps hitting on these things.

    It's because EA doesn't listen to us at all, unless TS4's sales start dropping... Anything they give us in between, that we want, is nothing more than a coincidence (which is why it isn't terribly common).

    Alex Massé, has listened to all the Sims fans concerns over the years and is making a game designed to cater to them.

    A Sims game, made by a Sims gamer for Sims gamers.
    raw
  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 5,662 Member
    Twicelikey wrote: »
    To put it shortly, TS4 is all pretty, no substance. Sure the game is nice to look at, but when it comes to gameplay, it is very lackluster. I have to say that TS2 is and always will be the superior game (in my opinion). Sure, it doesn't have open world or CASt, but what it makes up for is in memorable gameplay.

    If it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there would've never been a TS3 or TS4. EA/Maxis should just stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool for the sake of appealing to young audience members because we've all seen how well that worked out for them. You know how players will say "They never make anything we request from them." Let me rephrase that. They never make old audience members ask of them because from the very beginning, the targeted audience for TS4 have been younger members.

    Well, here is the problem with that. If it weren't for your older audience members, their feedback/criticism, and the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't have been a TS3 or TS4. Oh my, and I thought the Sims was inclusive yet EA/Maxis is abandoning their old playerbase. Not so inclusive now, are we?

    giphy.gif

    This is a bit of flawed logic honestly. Yes, if it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't be a TS3 or TS4. But that does not mean that the older audience is vastly more important than the younger. Don't let that get to your head like it's your way or the highway. Things change with time, so no I wouldn't necessarily say that EA/Maxis should stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool. It's just modernizing the sims. The sims in the past had things relating to what was popular at that time of release. This isn't something new, it's just keeping up with the times.

    As for the whole "They never make anything we request from them". That is a lie. They have in fact made things that people wanted. While it isn't the case 100% of the time. To say "never" is just being purely delusional. You are not being abandoned. I have seen plenty of times where the majority of the community wanted something and got it. Like Seasons for example. But what do I know..I'm just a 22-year-old simmer. I'm not even part of the "old audience".

    Here’s the thing we know there are things each and every Sims game are going to inevitably get. Seasons being one, and pets being another. These are the two most popular packs for each iteration they were added to. There was never any question whether that stuff was going to be added, regardless of people asking for it.

    Maxis, more often than not, holds novelty content to a higher level of importance than stuff that has more varied use and replay value. Sims 4 is a very one and done game, and that’s because they do not listen to players on how they can make the base game better or more immersive in the long term. They haven’t made any substantial improvements to the base game in the 5 years it’s been out. Seriously. The game itself plays just like it did in 2014 but now it has more stuff tacked on. Sure they have added some free stuff on top, and that’s appreciated, but they hardly listen to the bigger complaints against the existing game. If they did we would see improvements to AI, multitasking, emotions etc. no they are the same as day 1, aside from maybe a few tiny tweaks. They will not touch the guts of this game and I’m beginning to think they don’t know how.
  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 4,706 Member
    Twicelikey wrote: »
    To put it shortly, TS4 is all pretty, no substance. Sure the game is nice to look at, but when it comes to gameplay, it is very lackluster. I have to say that TS2 is and always will be the superior game (in my opinion). Sure, it doesn't have open world or CASt, but what it makes up for is in memorable gameplay.

    If it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there would've never been a TS3 or TS4. EA/Maxis should just stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool for the sake of appealing to young audience members because we've all seen how well that worked out for them. You know how players will say "They never make anything we request from them." Let me rephrase that. They never make old audience members ask of them because from the very beginning, the targeted audience for TS4 have been younger members.

    Well, here is the problem with that. If it weren't for your older audience members, their feedback/criticism, and the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't have been a TS3 or TS4. Oh my, and I thought the Sims was inclusive yet EA/Maxis is abandoning their old playerbase. Not so inclusive now, are we?

    giphy.gif

    This is a bit of flawed logic honestly. Yes, if it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't be a TS3 or TS4. But that does not mean that the older audience is vastly more important than the younger. Don't let that get to your head like it's your way or the highway. Things change with time, so no I wouldn't necessarily say that EA/Maxis should stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool. It's just modernizing the sims. The sims in the past had things relating to what was popular at that time of release. This isn't something new, it's just keeping up with the times.

    As for the whole "They never make anything we request from them". That is a lie. They have in fact made things that people wanted. While it isn't the case 100% of the time. To say "never" is just being purely delusional. You are not being abandoned. I have seen plenty of times where the majority of the community wanted something and got it. Like Seasons for example. But what do I know..I'm just a 22-year-old simmer. I'm not even part of the "old audience".

    Here’s the thing we know there are things each and every Sims game are going to inevitably get. Seasons being one, and pets being another. These are the two most popular packs for each iteration they were added to. There was never any question whether that stuff was going to be added, regardless of people asking for it.

    Maxis, more often than not, holds novelty content to a higher level of importance than stuff that has more varied use and replay value. Sims 4 is a very one and done game, and that’s because they do not listen to players on how they can make the base game better or more immersive in the long term. They haven’t made any substantial improvements to the base game in the 5 years it’s been out. Seriously. The game itself plays just like it did in 2014 but now it has more stuff tacked on. Sure they have added some free stuff on top, and that’s appreciated, but they hardly listen to the bigger complaints against the existing game. If they did we would see improvements to AI, multitasking, emotions etc. no they are the same as day 1, aside from maybe a few tiny tweaks. They will not touch the guts of this game and I’m beginning to think they don’t know how.

    I think they have found a way that pays. They'll carry on until it doesn't any more. That's business.
  • AericiaAericia Posts: 66 Member
    edited August 11
    They will not touch the guts of this game and I’m beginning to think they don’t know how.
    @drake_mccarty one modder just added Attractiveness system. Right now it's only "turns on" and "turns of" and I can't see any difference between "matching" Sims, but I believe, that is in progress.

    After Get Famous I started believe that they could make their own system. We have connections between Sim-fans and Sim-stars. We have reactions for popular and unpopular Sims. I do not believe, that is impossible to make connections between attractive Sims.

    I think, that they don't want to make "social and romantic" because of angry parents, who don't want to buy "adult" game for their children. The Sims must stay happy, safe and "simple minded", not human like. :(
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  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 5,662 Member
    edited August 11
    Simburian wrote: »
    Twicelikey wrote: »
    To put it shortly, TS4 is all pretty, no substance. Sure the game is nice to look at, but when it comes to gameplay, it is very lackluster. I have to say that TS2 is and always will be the superior game (in my opinion). Sure, it doesn't have open world or CASt, but what it makes up for is in memorable gameplay.

    If it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there would've never been a TS3 or TS4. EA/Maxis should just stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool for the sake of appealing to young audience members because we've all seen how well that worked out for them. You know how players will say "They never make anything we request from them." Let me rephrase that. They never make old audience members ask of them because from the very beginning, the targeted audience for TS4 have been younger members.

    Well, here is the problem with that. If it weren't for your older audience members, their feedback/criticism, and the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't have been a TS3 or TS4. Oh my, and I thought the Sims was inclusive yet EA/Maxis is abandoning their old playerbase. Not so inclusive now, are we?

    giphy.gif

    This is a bit of flawed logic honestly. Yes, if it weren't for the success of TS1 and TS2, there wouldn't be a TS3 or TS4. But that does not mean that the older audience is vastly more important than the younger. Don't let that get to your head like it's your way or the highway. Things change with time, so no I wouldn't necessarily say that EA/Maxis should stop trying to be that old person trying to be hip and cool. It's just modernizing the sims. The sims in the past had things relating to what was popular at that time of release. This isn't something new, it's just keeping up with the times.

    As for the whole "They never make anything we request from them". That is a lie. They have in fact made things that people wanted. While it isn't the case 100% of the time. To say "never" is just being purely delusional. You are not being abandoned. I have seen plenty of times where the majority of the community wanted something and got it. Like Seasons for example. But what do I know..I'm just a 22-year-old simmer. I'm not even part of the "old audience".

    Here’s the thing we know there are things each and every Sims game are going to inevitably get. Seasons being one, and pets being another. These are the two most popular packs for each iteration they were added to. There was never any question whether that stuff was going to be added, regardless of people asking for it.

    Maxis, more often than not, holds novelty content to a higher level of importance than stuff that has more varied use and replay value. Sims 4 is a very one and done game, and that’s because they do not listen to players on how they can make the base game better or more immersive in the long term. They haven’t made any substantial improvements to the base game in the 5 years it’s been out. Seriously. The game itself plays just like it did in 2014 but now it has more stuff tacked on. Sure they have added some free stuff on top, and that’s appreciated, but they hardly listen to the bigger complaints against the existing game. If they did we would see improvements to AI, multitasking, emotions etc. no they are the same as day 1, aside from maybe a few tiny tweaks. They will not touch the guts of this game and I’m beginning to think they don’t know how.

    I think they have found a way that pays. They'll carry on until it doesn't any more. That's business.

    EA’s aggressive monetization of The Sims has always paid. No mainline game has ever had an issue making money. Sims 4 did in the beginning but they salvaged it enough to turn a profit. Not what I’m saying at all.

    With Sims 4 they cut their costs to the bare minimum (it shows!) while keeping the DLC priced at the high end of the DLC food chain. Hello more profit, if only you could stay with Sims 4 but other failing EA titles are in need of that cash!

    All jokes aside, I am being quite serious when I say I don’t think the studio knows how to do anything with the guts of this game. They can add new things, that’s no issue although lately they’ve just recycled stuff more than adding new stuff. (Cutting costs.....) The core of the game has not changed, at least not in any significant enough way since 2014. Wouldn’t be an issue if the core wasn’t also rushed through development in like a year and largely incomplete at launch. Remember when they “added reactions” to basic things like death or infidelity? Well neither one of them work that much better than how they did at launch, even now. Jealously had to get a trait to function instead of just being a normal reaction. That alone should tell you there’s a problem. Many things they do with this game should spell problem but they spend a lot of money on marketing to make players think it’s business as usual. It is, but not in a way that really benefits us for how important players are to the game.

    ETA: we have perfect examples within Sims 4 of what they CAN do when they aren’t hindered by TS4’s core. Toddlers were created from scratch, and as a result their intelligence is miles above the AI that drives the other age groups. Pets, again, show us this studio is more than capable of producing a good AI system but for whatever reason they can’t seem to improve what we got in the base game. I can’t imagine any other reason besides it’s a mess that would become a much larger project than anticipated.
    Post edited by drake_mccarty on
  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 10,431 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    Evil_One wrote: »
    The last time EA was given some competition, (SimCity2013 Vs Cities: Skylines) EA Folded.

    I still prefer SimCity 4 deluxe even though I have bought and tried both the others. Sometimes it is the simplicity and charm of a game that appeals most in the long run. Sims 2 is the last one that had it for me.

    Wasn't it the lack of servers that KO'd SimCity5? It might have survived as a single player game and not online.

    No much more that, Sim City 2013 did not deliver on what it was supposed to do also it had an always online requirement.
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  • ApparentlyAwesomeApparentlyAwesome Posts: 1,359 Member
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Have you seen the Paralives Lot editing vid?:


    I've wanted this for so long...

    This is one of those things I was talking about when I said I don't understand how certain things haven't been done in The Sims series yet. He keeps hitting on these things.

    It's because EA doesn't listen to us at all, unless TS4's sales start dropping... Anything they give us in between, that we want, is nothing more than a coincidence (which is why it isn't terribly common).

    Alex Massé, has listened to all the Sims fans concerns over the years and is making a game designed to cater to them.

    A Sims game, made by a Sims gamer for Sims gamers.

    Yep. And them not listening and having a lock on the market makes them think they have everyone in pocket, clearly. And who can argue that if what they say about having made over a billion is true?

    Even if Paralives was done and released today they still wouldn't realize how tired some of us are of them until we're gone. They're so focused on money they've likely deluded themselves into thinking that even the unhappy players deep down are really happy with the game because they still spend money on it. The 'why' never matters to them, just the numbers.

    Not to mention they'd think they hold a higher ground being more experienced, having been around longer, and even looking better to most people. They don't realize that means nothing to some of us if the game and decisions they make about it aren't all that good. Those things make it worse.
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