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    New Pronoun Options Please

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    ModseyModsey Posts: 1,468 Member
    edited April 2019 in The Sims 4 Game Feedback
    I love your gender options and I love making my non-binary and trans sims, but I would really like if sims could have some extra pronoun options. Especially since I don't know many non-binary people who use just she/her or he/him pronouns. I use they/them and he/him depending on my gender fluid days.

    If they/them could be added into the game that would be amazing. If the game devs wanted to take it a step further there could be a fill-in box for special pronouns. I know there are some less common ones that enby people use such as ze/zir or ze/zim (I had to look these up but I know there are a lot more than just that)

    Anyway I'd just love it if my sim could have they/them pronouns because to be honest seeing chat boxes telling me about my sim-self's latest adventures with she/her pronouns kind of stings

    EDIT: I realize I never mentioned how I thought this idea should be done when I suggested it. I think (in CAS specifically, when creating a sim or when doing a cas.fulledit mode) having a "check a box" style pronoun choice is an ideal way to do it. Putting it in the same menu with all the other gender identities such as body type and ability to get pregnant would be the ideal way to do it.

    Yes, changing the text boxes would be a lot of work, so maybe it's not realistic but I have yet to see a thread suggesting it, so I thought I would put it out there. If the devs don't know a change can be made or how it can be made, then obviously they have no way to make that change. Somebody had to suggest it, and I thought why not me.

    Thank you to the people who have been positive towards the suggestion and giving positive feedback
    Post edited by Modsey on

    Comments

    • OldeseadoggeOldeseadogge Posts: 5,000 Member
      Can't speak for other languages, but English has the pronoun 'it' which while used mainly for inanimate objects can also be used in reference to young children, as in, 'help the child form letters by taking its hand and forming them' (from a British source). Perhaps that would work since sims aren't living beings, they need all the help they can get, and we are spared looking for words nobody but a select few would understand.
    • MadameLeeMadameLee Posts: 32,752 Member
      Oldeseadogge wrote: »
      Can't speak for other languages, but English has the pronoun 'it' which while used mainly for inanimate objects can also be used in reference to young children, as in, 'help the child form letters by taking its hand and forming them' (from a British source). Perhaps that would work since sims aren't living beings, they need all the help they can get, and we are spared looking for words nobody but a select few would understand.

      It isn't the same thing as he/him their/them
      6adMCGP.gif
    • kwanzaabotkwanzaabot Posts: 2,440 Member
      This would be nice to have, but oh my god the amount of files that would have to be modified is colossal. Any text string containing a he/her choice would need to be altered, and that would be a massive undertaking. It's sadly not as easy as just ticking a box.
      wJbomAo.png
    • annaliese39annaliese39 Posts: 2,797 Member
      This isn't something I personally need, but I certainly wouldn't mind it being added as I'm sure it would really mean a lot to many players. Anything that makes our sims more distinctive and the game more inclusive is always welcome. Plus it would be optional, so everyone can be happy. I'm also really glad how versatile the gender options are in TS4 now. Gender is such a complex thing though that I'm unsure it can ever be done 'perfectly'. I've been doing some research into it in an effort to understand better and I still feel ignorant. I don't think I could refer to my sims as 'it' though - I know they're not alive and it is just a word like any other, but they're like my babies so it just feels wrong to me. :D Perhaps for simplicity sims can just be referred to by their name rather than adding pronouns? I think my sims usually are anyway.
    • invisiblgirlinvisiblgirl Posts: 1,709 Member
      edited March 2019
      The game mostly avoids using pronouns - generally, it uses names - but there are times when using the name would be too repetitive. It's a bit of a sticky wicket in English - we can use 'they' and 'their' in some contexts (and yes, it's perfectly correct English), but in others, it doesn't sound quite right. I think, however, that in most cases, it's perfectly clear that 'they' would be referring to a particular Sim, not a group of Sims.

      If I see 'Kate just caught a new fish! Check their inventory!', I would understand 'their' as a pronoun substituted for 'her' or 'his' to avoid identifying Kate as male or female. I think I'd find it less awkward to read than 's/he' or 'her/his', and 'their' is actually more gender-neutral, inclusive of people who think of themselves as neither or both.

      At the same time, you've got Sims in many languages, and I agree with kwanzaabot - it would require a lot of editing. It's not just a simple substitution - in English, it would also affect the verb - you can't say 'they is', even if you're referring to one person. 'He is' has to change to 'They are'. In other languages, you have to find a similar convention, and it gets more tricky when adjective endings have to match. (And let's not even get started on inflected languages.) On the other hand, some languages are easier - in French, a possessive pronoun matches the thing, not the possessor.

      Probably something to think about for Sims 5 - it's the sort of thing that needs to be done from the start.
      I just want things to match. :'(
    • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 9,585 Member
      Cinebar wrote: »
      I'm a bit confused. I thought if I transgenered to a male then I would prefer being called he instead of she. I thought that was the whole point. And vice versa. If male to female I would prefer she instead of he. It's not clear to me why I would want to be called they. I'm not plural. Then there are Sims I would want to be called he or she because that is who I built so I hope that wouldn't be removed and how would we choose what pronoun the game would use? In the CAS filters? another slot to pick the pronoun?

      the they I think is for people who believe they can be both at the same time male and female though I could be wrong
      @Cinebar
      more for sim kids and more drama please
    • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
      comicsforlife wrote: »
      Cinebar wrote: »
      I'm a bit confused. I thought if I transgenered to a male then I would prefer being called he instead of she. I thought that was the whole point. And vice versa. If male to female I would prefer she instead of he. It's not clear to me why I would want to be called they. I'm not plural. Then there are Sims I would want to be called he or she because that is who I built so I hope that wouldn't be removed and how would we choose what pronoun the game would use? In the CAS filters? another slot to pick the pronoun?

      the they I think is for people who believe they can be both at the same time male and female though I could be wrong
      @Cinebar

      Thank you, it's confusing to me. I refer to they when I don't know if a person is a he and she, or if they prefer he or she, but where I live they is plural and my grammar teacher would roll over if I said They is, instead of they are. I never read the popups much anyway, just wondering how we choose this like in CAS, which would seem easier work for developers then changing this for every language this game supports.
      "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
    • annaliese39annaliese39 Posts: 2,797 Member
      edited March 2019
      @Cinebar @comicsforlife Gender identity can get confusing as it means thinking outside of what society and our own culture teaches us. My understanding is that there are more than two genders and also agender i.e. being without gender. Nonbinary can mean someone has multiple genders, has partial genders, moves between genders and/or has fluctuating genders, or has no gender at all etc. There's a lot more to it and everyone is different, but basically anyone who doesn't fit perfectly into one of the binary gender categories male or female may choose to identify as nonbinary. So, you don't have to be transgender to be nonbinary and not all transgender people are nonbinary. I think of gender identity as being more of a feeling or sense of who you are inside, than it necessarily being about your body or your gender expression? I'm nowhere near an expert on this though, so I'm sure others will be better at explaining.
    • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
      annaliese39 wrote: »
      @Cinebar @comicsforlife Gender identity can get confusing as it means thinking outside of what society and our own culture teaches us. My understanding is that there are more than two genders and also agender i.e. being without gender. Nonbinary can mean someone has multiple genders, has partial genders, moves between genders and/or has fluctuating genders, or has no gender at all etc. There's a lot more to it and everyone is different, but basically anyone who doesn't fit perfectly into one of the binary gender categories male or female may choose to identify as nonbinary. So, you don't have to be transgender to be nonbinary and not all transgender people are nonbinary. I think of gender identity as being more of a feeling or sense of who you are inside, than it necessarily being about your body or your gender expression? I'm nowhere near an expert on this though, so I'm sure others will be better at explaining.

      Thanks. It is confusing. I hope they can add this to the CAS filters so others can keep the he or she they would like to keep. I have no other way to understand how they would do this without doing that way because that is a huge rewrite of game and a lot of time for every language but maybe easier if it's chosen in CAS, but then I have no idea how much time and money it would take to change every single language this game supports. CAS seems easier to me, but I don't know much about all that.
      "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
    • annaliese39annaliese39 Posts: 2,797 Member
      Cinebar wrote: »
      Thanks. It is confusing. I hope they can add this to the CAS filters so others can keep the he or she they would like to keep. I have no other way to understand how they would do this without doing that way because that is a huge rewrite of game and a lot of time for every language but maybe easier if it's chosen in CAS, but then I have no idea how much time and money it would take to change every single language this game supports. CAS seems easier to me, but I don't know much about all that.

      No problem. :) I agree it does seem like it would be complicated to implement in TS4 at this stage, but I'm no expert on game design either. That's why I suggested simply calling sims by their names might be a simple solution, at least for now? I honestly don't know though.

    • ModseyModsey Posts: 1,468 Member
      Cinebar wrote: »
      I'm a bit confused. I thought if I transgenered to a male then I would prefer being called he instead of she. I thought that was the whole point. And vice versa. If male to female I would prefer she instead of he. It's not clear to me why I would want to be called they. I'm not plural. Then there are Sims I would want to be called he or she because that is who I built so I hope that wouldn't be removed and how would we choose what pronoun the game would use? In the CAS filters? another slot to pick the pronoun?

      This is a really good question, let me explain why they/them is a good option.

      They/them is used for people who don't feel male or female. The term for people like that is non-binary. There are a bunch of identities in non-binary, such as gender neutral where they feel as though they're a third gender with a bit of male and female influences but still unique. Bi-gender, where they feel very strongly that they're BOTH male and female. Agender, people feel they aren't on the gender spectrum at all and are without a specific gender. Gender fluid, like me, where sometimes you feel like a boy sometimes, and other time likes a girl, and sometimes in-between.

      So he/him and she/her don't apply to those people and a lot of them use they/them. Like me, I'm gender fluid so I experience multiple gender identities but for the last four months I've been in the middle so I like they/them the most right now.

      And it's okay that they/them doesn't feel quite right for you or doesn't make a lot of sense. Even for me I didn't like they/them when I first started accepting I was gender fluid, it took me a while to accept that even though it was usually used as a plural, that it was okay to use for a singular person who didn't identify as male or female. Hopefully this makes more sense :)
    • ModseyModsey Posts: 1,468 Member
      annaliese39 wrote: »
      So, you don't have to be transgender to be nonbinary and not all transgender people are nonbinary. I think of gender identity as being more of a feeling or sense of who you are inside, than it necessarily being about your body or your gender expression? I'm nowhere near an expert on this though, so I'm sure others will be better at explaining.

      This is exactly correct. The way I personally identify my gender is how I feel on the inside and how I want others to perceive me/treat me. It's just a feeling that I know certain gendered things don't feel comfortable to me in the moment.

      (it's just now occurring to me that I should consider changing my signature because it's very old)
    • ModseyModsey Posts: 1,468 Member
      MissCherie wrote: »
      I feel like ''online'' people care way too much about that kind of details. I have many friends and classmates/co-workers that identify as non-binary and NONE of them care if we call them he or she, it's only online that I see people caring that much about it, none of the LGBTQ+ people I know in real life care about that kind of thing, as long as people are respectful when they talk to them they don't care about the pronouns.

      That's great for the people in your life if they're really that comfortable, but that feeling or experience isn't universal to the LGBTQ+ community as a whole, and there are still plenty of trans or non-binary people who wouldn't be comfortable hearing the wrong pronouns or might feel invalidated because of it. Also, people feel much safer talking about their gender identity online than they feel talking about it in their real life because what you say online has very little real world consequences. I can walk away from my computer and never go back to a certain webpage or forum post, I can't just walk away from all my classmates/teachers/doctors/friends if they decide they don't want to respect my gender identity.

      I let most people use the wrong pronouns for me because I'm usually to anxious to ask them to change or to correct them. I live in a very liberal area but I still don't feel 100% comfortable telling people in real life about my gender identity. And I'm very lucky that I have a best friend who was more than willing to help me come out and get my other friends to use different pronouns/names. And my family is pretty accepting, although not great about using my new name or pronouns (which I accept, although not without a little bit of pain every time I hear the wrong name)
    • ModseyModsey Posts: 1,468 Member
      I don't really expect EA and the sims 4 devs to make this update, I know it's a big change but I thought maybe I would at least pose the suggestion on the chance they were willing to consider making the update, or consider adding that option in the new Sims 5, whenever that releases.

      The Sims 4 devs have already made some really amazing changes for gender options in this game and they're very open to the LGBTQ+ community within the Sims 4 community, and I'm very grateful for that. It's just a suggestion that maybe they haven't considered before. I can't expect them to change anything if I don't make an effort to let them know.
    • catitude5catitude5 Posts: 2,537 Member
      Optional, give it to those who want it, but don't force it on those who don't.
    • LaneBoy1995LaneBoy1995 Posts: 133 Member
      Thats a cool aspect but I really don't know how it works with other languages.
    • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
      Modsey wrote: »
      Cinebar wrote: »
      I'm a bit confused. I thought if I transgenered to a male then I would prefer being called he instead of she. I thought that was the whole point. And vice versa. If male to female I would prefer she instead of he. It's not clear to me why I would want to be called they. I'm not plural. Then there are Sims I would want to be called he or she because that is who I built so I hope that wouldn't be removed and how would we choose what pronoun the game would use? In the CAS filters? another slot to pick the pronoun?

      This is a really good question, let me explain why they/them is a good option.

      They/them is used for people who don't feel male or female. The term for people like that is non-binary. There are a bunch of identities in non-binary, such as gender neutral where they feel as though they're a third gender with a bit of male and female influences but still unique. Bi-gender, where they feel very strongly that they're BOTH male and female. Agender, people feel they aren't on the gender spectrum at all and are without a specific gender. Gender fluid, like me, where sometimes you feel like a boy sometimes, and other time likes a girl, and sometimes in-between.

      So he/him and she/her don't apply to those people and a lot of them use they/them. Like me, I'm gender fluid so I experience multiple gender identities but for the last four months I've been in the middle so I like they/them the most right now.

      And it's okay that they/them doesn't feel quite right for you or doesn't make a lot of sense. Even for me I didn't like they/them when I first started accepting I was gender fluid, it took me a while to accept that even though it was usually used as a plural, that it was okay to use for a singular person who didn't identify as male or female. Hopefully this makes more sense :)

      Thank you for being very polite to me about my confusion. I really do respect you for that. As far as I am concerned maybe they can add this to CAS options with gender patch so players can choose which pronoun they want their Sim to be referred to while in the game. I don't know how they would do all this. But I call Sim it because they aren't real. And I have never projected myself into the game as I see them as not real. I keep my healthy distance/arm's length from thinking my Sim is real, or I say their name, or if I talk about my Sim I say 'it', no matter what Sim it is.
      "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
    • MadameLeeMadameLee Posts: 32,752 Member
      edited April 2019
      Cinebar wrote: »
      Modsey wrote: »
      Cinebar wrote: »
      I'm a bit confused. I thought if I transgenered to a male then I would prefer being called he instead of she. I thought that was the whole point. And vice versa. If male to female I would prefer she instead of he. It's not clear to me why I would want to be called they. I'm not plural. Then there are Sims I would want to be called he or she because that is who I built so I hope that wouldn't be removed and how would we choose what pronoun the game would use? In the CAS filters? another slot to pick the pronoun?

      This is a really good question, let me explain why they/them is a good option.

      They/them is used for people who don't feel male or female. The term for people like that is non-binary. There are a bunch of identities in non-binary, such as gender neutral where they feel as though they're a third gender with a bit of male and female influences but still unique. Bi-gender, where they feel very strongly that they're BOTH male and female. Agender, people feel they aren't on the gender spectrum at all and are without a specific gender. Gender fluid, like me, where sometimes you feel like a boy sometimes, and other time likes a girl, and sometimes in-between.

      So he/him and she/her don't apply to those people and a lot of them use they/them. Like me, I'm gender fluid so I experience multiple gender identities but for the last four months I've been in the middle so I like they/them the most right now.

      And it's okay that they/them doesn't feel quite right for you or doesn't make a lot of sense. Even for me I didn't like they/them when I first started accepting I was gender fluid, it took me a while to accept that even though it was usually used as a plural, that it was okay to use for a singular person who didn't identify as male or female. Hopefully this makes more sense :)

      Thank you for being very polite to me about my confusion. I really do respect you for that. As far as I am concerned maybe they can add this to CAS options with gender patch so players can choose which pronoun they want their Sim to be referred to while in the game. I don't know how they would do all this. But I call Sim it because they aren't real. And I have never projected myself into the game as I see them as not real. I keep my healthy distance/arm's length from thinking my Sim is real, or I say their name, or if I talk about my Sim I say 'it', no matter what Sim it is.

      Cinebar wrote: »
      Modsey wrote: »
      Cinebar wrote: »
      I'm a bit confused. I thought if I transgenered to a male then I would prefer being called he instead of she. I thought that was the whole point. And vice versa. If male to female I would prefer she instead of he. It's not clear to me why I would want to be called they. I'm not plural. Then there are Sims I would want to be called he or she because that is who I built so I hope that wouldn't be removed and how would we choose what pronoun the game would use? In the CAS filters? another slot to pick the pronoun?

      This is a really good question, let me explain why they/them is a good option.

      They/them is used for people who don't feel male or female. The term for people like that is non-binary. There are a bunch of identities in non-binary, such as gender neutral where they feel as though they're a third gender with a bit of male and female influences but still unique. Bi-gender, where they feel very strongly that they're BOTH male and female. Agender, people feel they aren't on the gender spectrum at all and are without a specific gender. Gender fluid, like me, where sometimes you feel like a boy sometimes, and other time likes a girl, and sometimes in-between.

      So he/him and she/her don't apply to those people and a lot of them use they/them. Like me, I'm gender fluid so I experience multiple gender identities but for the last four months I've been in the middle so I like they/them the most right now.

      And it's okay that they/them doesn't feel quite right for you or doesn't make a lot of sense. Even for me I didn't like they/them when I first started accepting I was gender fluid, it took me a while to accept that even though it was usually used as a plural, that it was okay to use for a singular person who didn't identify as male or female. Hopefully this makes more sense :)

      Thank you for being very polite to me about my confusion. I really do respect you for that. As far as I am concerned maybe they can add this to CAS options with gender patch so players can choose which pronoun they want their Sim to be referred to while in the game. I don't know how they would do all this. But I call Sim it because they aren't real. And I have never projected myself into the game as I see them as not real. I keep my healthy distance/arm's length from thinking my Sim is real, or I say their name, or if I talk about my Sim I say 'it', no matter what Sim it is.



      Except sims are born "boy" and "girl" so that means the game recognise gender doesn't it?
      6adMCGP.gif
    • littlemissgogolittlemissgogo Posts: 1,808 Member
      They are being realistic. They specified they don't expect the devs to make this update and that it's a pretty sizable change as well. It's merely a suggestion.
      6riwm5.png
    • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
      LaneBoy1995 wrote: »
      Thats a cool aspect but I really don't know how it works with other languages.
      Indeed. Our word for she is ‘zij’. Our word for they is ‘zij’ as well.
      5JZ57S6.png
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