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  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 6,114 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    @Chazzzy Of course, if Simmers disable usage sharing they are even more unlikely to get their wants or gameplay style to get noticed and influence the game Gurus aren't they?

    I've noticed that a lot of Simmers say being connected by Origin in game and online slows their game so they might be the ones on low spec. machines and due to get left behind with the Legacy game.

    Usage data doesn’t tell the developers want players want, it only tells them what is being used in the game. Telemetry data can never produce data on anything other than usage stats. It’s not a great measure by itself. I would also argue that telemetry data doesn’t really tell them about anyone’s particular play style either outside of # of households played per save file.

    Also usage data is a setting in the game options. If it’s enabled Origin will collect and transmit your usage data regardless of whether you are playing online or offline. Playing offline just delays when that data is sent to EA.
  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 6,114 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    Simburian wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/SimGuruLyndsay In her Twitter feed she has a list of the Stuff packs.

    "Let's look at stuff packs ranked by how many people used them in the first year they were released"


    Laundry day came first and you might be surprised that My First Pet Stuff came 4th.

    But there’s an option to disable usage sharing data in settings. And you can also disable the internet. So for those players who have them both disabled, they are not included in this ranking correct? So that would mean the ranking is inaccurate and there is no way to track how often those players played those packs?

    It's still correct for those who shared usage data. Usage also points to Origin's sales figures doesn't it? I also doubt that many of the thousands using Origin bothered to change the settings and they also stayed on the internet to download stuff from the Gallery. I expect most people play with occasional "minimise to desktop" to see what is going on on Twitter, Facebook and their emails. It's the sort of game that you can play that way. That's what I do anyway.

    Usage and sales are not the same. The usage stats are limited by the number of units that have been sold for sure, but if this were a sales ranking there’s no way Get Together would come in last. It was the second expansion pack for this game, the chances that it’s been outsold by GF in less than 6 months is a massively unbelievable stretch.

    Usage data is a setting in Sims 4, not only Origin. Both collect and transmit data, but the data is very different and goes to different parties. I would argue that the majority of people shared usage data from both Sims 4 and Origin. Playing offline, or with the game minimized has no effect on usage data being transmitted to EA. It’s done entirely in the background.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    logion wrote: »
    What have helped me understand a bit more of the attitude from game developers and their responses are the blog askagamedev, it is a blog from an anonymous developer who talks about game development.

    Some interesting things from that blog:

    Developers are very limited by time and budget, they have to make do with the resources they have, if there is a feature they want to add within that budget, that often means something else has to be removed. I am sure the developer are very aware of this. You have 200 developers working on different things and are in different stages of completion so they have to choose what to prioritize. And game development takes a long time. I am sure they have streamlined a lot of things now but I would not be surprised if it takes more than a year to make an Expansion Pack.

    Game development studios collects usage data from thousands and thousands of players to get the greater picture of what was successful or not. I am not sure how many copies sims4 has sold, I googled it and got "10 million copies in 2018". So when someone says "no one likes this feature in the game" on twitter on the forums, that is the response from one user. And the developer has usage data from 10 million people.

    80, 20, 5. 80% of players will never engage with anything beyond the game itself. 20% will actually bother to go online and read something about the game, and a mere 5% will be engaged so much as to actually bother to post and communicate with other players. So forum posters, twitter messages, youtube comments are only 5% of the people who buy and play the game and they will have to take this into consideration.

    So if a user for example says "No one liked this game pack" to a developer and the developer has sales numbers that says that it sold better than their other Game Packs, usage data that they played it more than other packs and feedback from their team that the development went very well the developer will probably not be sure how to handle this feedback from the user.

    If you play the game developer career in the sims4 there is actually something similar happening where a bunch of vocal users want a feature changed for a new release and you can choose to change it, or look at the sales predictions.




    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • Deshong04Deshong04 Posts: 4,278 Member
    So if you saw Grants latest tweets. How they have more dlc,and did more than sims 3 did. The other tweet well they have 200 people which is twice what sims 3 had? To be fair he was replying other tweets. These tweets do not really help the case at all.Yes you do get more dlc,but still, there is a lot missing content. Why the sims 3 had less content. The expansion packs felt meatier in comparison. We also had the store for certain objects.(Why it was overpriced). So basically you have more DLC,and more of a team . We still feel like we have less content,and the game feels empty. That is not a good sign :/ .

    Even TS (2000) when I go back to play it doesn't have much in buy or build mode with all EP's compared to TS2 or TS3, yet is still abundant in gameplay and extremely fun to play. What content that is available is very well thought out and adds to meaningful gameplay. The Sims themselves are also quite charming and likable. So the truth is that more content/objects/DLC/Microtransactions/Macrotransactions does not equal a better or the best game. Especially when the content's quality is severely lacking as well as its usefulness/versatility. Which was said already but I wanted to reiterate it.

    DLC, etc can be a good thing but it can also be a very bad thing and depends on the game company and how they utilize to either benefit both themselves and gamers or just themselves. We are in a generation of gaming where many game companies are out to just make money, not make great games, have great customer service and make profit. But of course, not all game companies are bad and anyone can tell them apart if they pay attention to what is going on in the gaming industry altogether. Some value quality, integrity and feedback while others value get rich quick schemes.

    As long as consumers accept ill business practices which they continuously support, they get what they deserve and pay for...expensive mediocrity. And thus the cycle repeats while nothing ever changes because some don't see the bigger picture.
    “What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
    Stand a little taller
    Doesn't mean I'm lonely when I'm alone
    What doesn't kill you makes a fighter
    Footsteps even lighter”
  • logionlogion Posts: 4,712 Member
    edited March 2019
    Cinebar wrote: »

    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.

    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though. When you have a development team of 200 developers pretty much any decision becomes a large financial investment which is why they often have to make hard decisions, do they add a feature that users have not used much in the past but people are very vocal about it? Or do they make something else based on other feedback and usage data?

    Toddlers were probably one of those hard decisions they had to make, like many others they have probably done. I think it is very hard to justify an investment like payment for 200 developers for a year if they do not have some statistics to back it up.

    I am not saying you are wrong, I think when there are so much money involved it is sadly very difficult to please everyone. I hope that the team gets a larger budget so they can be more free in their decisions. Given that the sims4 seems to have sold very well, while other franchises like Battlefield and Anthem have not. It could be possible that it could happen.
  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    edited March 2019
    logion wrote: »
    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though.
    Definitely. Even as a modder doing relatively tiny things by comparison, I often wish I could go back and change something, or do it differently. Sometimes I can here and there since it's modding and it's more flexible, but sometimes I've already established something as normal in a mod and it's too late to change it without annoying lots of people. And it can be hard to know who all would get annoyed, if they would, and why. You can't just poll the people who are engaged and assume that's accurate cause they represent such a tiny portion of those who use what you've made (this is made all the more clear when you've got engagement numbers in the single digits sometimes, out of hundreds-thousands who are downloading).

    That ends up meaning that toggles are king in this game, imo, more so than any other. Due to the vast amount of differences in playstyle and desires that a player might have, being able to flip switches as much as possible is best, so long as you aren't overwhelming them with too many of them, or too arbitrary, which is a whole other type of challenge in itself. And then there are some players sometimes who want more of a guided experience and don't want to be confronted with a morass of switches, so figuring out how to present them with something more guided while also providing switches to others is tricky. In the end, sometimes you're going to end up prioritizing one or the other (e.g. Strangerville vs. Get Together clubs). Then there's stuff like the Seasons calendar, which I think is a solid example of mixing the two priorities together; guided holidays/events experience by default, but can (mostly) be customized.

    Edit: Oh and to make matters more confusing, using myself as an example, I talk a big talk about wanting sandbox tools and it's definitely true that it's something I get a lot of enjoyment out of, but me getting sandbox tools doesn't guaranteed translate to long, meaningful, fun play sessions. For example, the clubs system is one of the most customizable sandbox tools in the game's packs, so you'd think I would use it all the time, but due in part to my tendency to play a small amount of sims at once, I don't tend to use it that often. However, there have been times I really would have missed it, like creatively using it to find sims with a certain attribute, or using it to draw sims into the home of a vampire so they can be locked in and fed on. Neither of these things being features that were explicitly programmed in as a guided experience, but are made possible with it. And that feeling of doing something creative that wasn't explicitly intended is irreplaceable, but it can also be only one piece of the puzzle in terms of overall enjoyment.
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  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    logion wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »

    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.

    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though. When you have a development team of 200 developers pretty much any decision becomes a large financial investment which is why they often have to make hard decisions, do they add a feature that users have not used much in the past but people are very vocal about it? Or do they make something else based on other feedback and usage data?

    Toddlers were probably one of those hard decisions they had to make, like many others they have probably done. I think it is very hard to justify an investment like payment for 200 developers for a year if they do not have some statistics to back it up.

    I am not saying you are wrong, I think when there are so much money involved it is sadly very difficult to please everyone. I hope that the team gets a larger budget so they can be more free in their decisions. Given that the sims4 seems to have sold very well, while other franchises like Battlefield and Anthem have not. It could be possible that it could happen.

    We don't know if they get a big enough budget or not. This is all speculation, they may get more than enough, we just don't know. But what we do know is TS4 sold more after they created toddlers for it.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • TS1299TS1299 Posts: 1,604 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    logion wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »

    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.

    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though. When you have a development team of 200 developers pretty much any decision becomes a large financial investment which is why they often have to make hard decisions, do they add a feature that users have not used much in the past but people are very vocal about it? Or do they make something else based on other feedback and usage data?

    Toddlers were probably one of those hard decisions they had to make, like many others they have probably done. I think it is very hard to justify an investment like payment for 200 developers for a year if they do not have some statistics to back it up.

    I am not saying you are wrong, I think when there are so much money involved it is sadly very difficult to please everyone. I hope that the team gets a larger budget so they can be more free in their decisions. Given that the sims4 seems to have sold very well, while other franchises like Battlefield and Anthem have not. It could be possible that it could happen.

    We don't know if they get a big enough budget or not. This is all speculation, they may get more than enough, we just don't know. But what we do know is TS4 sold more after they created toddlers for it.

    IF there is one thing that they could do with the telemetry was instead of giving more of what is already being most played, its great if they use it to find what areas need to improve. Example are the babies. Babies in TS4, and even Elders isn't fleshed out. Grant once told that the telemetry is showing that most simmers don't play them and unsure if they would add anything new for them. They should improve the things that the simmers don't play because most of the time, players want to play them, however they are not just as fun. Its probably the reson why Generations feels the only pack in TS3 that gives many things to Elders. Not a lot play them much.
  • Katlyn2525Katlyn2525 Posts: 4,201 Member
    edited March 2019
    As far as the tele research goes, I seem to remember a couple of classic cartoons with the likeness of some of the sims guru's, including Grant. They had to do with toddlers and pools. The cartoons were very accurate regarding the fanbase. The tele was not. You can find them on You Tube.
  • lisamwittlisamwitt Posts: 5,079 Member
    TS1299 wrote: »
    IF there is one thing that they could do with the telemetry was instead of giving more of what is already being most played, its great if they use it to find what areas need to improve. Example are the babies. Babies in TS4, and even Elders isn't fleshed out. Grant once told that the telemetry is showing that most simmers don't play them and unsure if they would add anything new for them. They should improve the things that the simmers don't play because most of the time, players want to play them, however they are not just as fun. Its probably the reson why Generations feels the only pack in TS3 that gives many things to Elders. Not a lot play them much.

    This definitely seems true to me. I played toddlers very little in 2&3 because they were more of a hassle than an enjoyable part of the game. They were too dependent on everyone else and couldn't do much themselves.
    I was skeptical when I heard they'd added them to 4 thinking I still wouldn't care for them. But I actually played as my current Sim from toddler up, paying very little attention to her parents. They can do pretty much anything they need to do and I like that. One day I told her to talk to her sister (not realizing her sister had left the apartment) and left the room to get a drink. I came back to find she'd toddled herself blocks away down the street and was dancing with a neighbor.
    I'm not sure what they could add to elders that would pique my interest, since I'm usually done with a Sim and have moved on to their child by that point. But I guess you never know.
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  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 11,966 Member
    edited March 2019
    filipomel wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    The very fact Sims 3 is so much more open and added so much different, diverse stuff, makes it way more in depth and adds numerous different things to do. Because it tickles our imagination and there's nothing deeper than that. Joining the forums here broadened my view on this, because I met simmers who were doing things in their games that never even had occurred to me. I don't think Sims 4 offers that, because the gameplay is so scripted and one dimensional. The developers came up with a plan and we play it. And each and every simmer has no choice but playing the very same game.

    I completely disagree with this entire statement. Depth is subjective, I find the Sims 4 packs to have an enormous amount more depth than Sims 3 packs ever had. Sure Sims 3 has a lot of stuff, but in the long run, a lot of this stuff never proved completely useful in my normal game play, it would be stuff that I play around with time to time, but nothing that ever really expanded my game play as a whole. Sims 4 however offers game play features and tools that have completely changed and expanded my normal game play, the club system, lot traits, better cats and dogs (in my opinion), a calendar/holiday system, and now a celebrity and reputation system, all these, and some other features that I haven't mentioned, are features and tools that I use in my game play every single time I play, and I find it difficult to play without these features whenever I go back to playing Sims 3. Very few expansion packs from Sims 3 changed my game the way almost every single expansion pack from Sims 4 has (so far), and that's probably just because of how I play my game.

    I'm not trying to say that you're wrong for thinking Sims 3 is better and has more depth, but I'm not wrong either for thinking Sims 4 is better and has more depth. It really is just a matter of perspective.

    You are right whatever said is subjective and I will always feel that Sims 4 is not an full glass as when you go feature for feature Sims 3 beats Sims 4 for me I could truly tailor Sims 3 and Sims 2 to how I truly want to play and in Sims 4 for me again you can't because you have less tools to work with and even if Sims 4 had more DLC it cannot cover up the lack of features it does not have and I am not talking open worlds or open neighborhoods because Sims 4 can never possess it. I am talking about editable neighborhoods, neighborhood creation tools for those for me is better than any DLC that is in any of the packs. Yes, I buy the packs but I never pay full price as I find the value not worth it and wait for any sale where I can get it much cheaper than what the asking price is and I know I am not alone on this. For every pack that came out is gimped meaning less gameplay for me and I use CL as an example if Sims 4 is so great why can I not build Apts in every neighborhood for Apts are not only found in cities and that lessens the role of "You Rule or Challenge Everything" what is there to challenge as my systems run all over Sims 4 as there is no scaling system in place so there is no challenge, I look for the controversy to continue if anything. So yes, everything is subjective. :)
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  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 11,966 Member
    Sk8rblaze wrote: »
    lisamwitt wrote: »
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    Sk8rblaze wrote: »
    He is considering the countless stuff packs for TS4 as part of that equation -- using the number of DLCs as a basis for the game being "good". I guess it's clear why TS4 is the weaker entry.

    That should tell you enough. The Sims 3, love it or hate it, just about had World Adventures, Ambitions, Late Night, Generations, Pets, Showtime, Supernatural, Seasons, University Life, and Island Paradise by now. Many of those packs contained multiple themes from the many TS4 packs all in one expansion.

    Edited to remove screenshot of Guru personal twitter. ~Rtas


    Wowwwww he needs to delete that, that's embarrassing and unprofessional in my opinion. Now I understand @Bagoas77 's position even more lol

    That was my reaction too. All forums are trash?... Just wow. Way to blast all the fans of pretty much anything anywhere.

    Yeah, it’s quite disheartening, as a fan of the series, to hear a developer say “all forums are trash.” Especially when so many users give feedback here, share CC, share screenshots, etc.

    Personal twitter or not, you have the responsibility to watch what you say on the Internet.

    An developer actually stated that and if that was said it said an whole lot about thier customers especially that speak out against an product.
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  • lisamwittlisamwitt Posts: 5,079 Member
    Goldmoldar wrote: »
    An developer actually stated that and if that was said it said an whole lot about thier customers especially that speak out against an product.

    The screenshot showing it was removed from the thread because it's considered inappropriate to show someone's personal account, but basically someone said something to him and his response was that he doesn't go to forums because all forums are trash. It is his personal account, not his guru account, so he is allowed obviously to say whatever he wants. And he's entitled to his opinion that forums are trash. The problem is, that when you are someone who is somewhat high profile because of your job (he's a senior producer for Maxis), you do have to be cautious for the good of your position. He could have just said he doesn't frequent forums. It just doesn't suggest that he cares for the fans at all, and you know he'd never say such a thing on his guru account. Which is where the other tweets, and the main focus of this thread actually, are from.
    Hopefully the conversation didn't get too derailed.
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  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 11,966 Member
    Deshong04 wrote: »
    So if you saw Grants latest tweets. How they have more dlc,and did more than sims 3 did. The other tweet well they have 200 people which is twice what sims 3 had? To be fair he was replying other tweets. These tweets do not really help the case at all.Yes you do get more dlc,but still, there is a lot missing content. Why the sims 3 had less content. The expansion packs felt meatier in comparison. We also had the store for certain objects.(Why it was overpriced). So basically you have more DLC,and more of a team . We still feel like we have less content,and the game feels empty. That is not a good sign :/ .

    Even TS (2000) when I go back to play it doesn't have much in buy or build mode with all EP's compared to TS2 or TS3, yet is still abundant in gameplay and extremely fun to play. What content that is available is very well thought out and adds to meaningful gameplay. The Sims themselves are also quite charming and likable. So the truth is that more content/objects/DLC/Microtransactions/Macrotransactions does not equal a better or the best game. Especially when the content's quality is severely lacking as well as its usefulness/versatility. Which was said already but I wanted to reiterate it.

    DLC, etc can be a good thing but it can also be a very bad thing and depends on the game company and how they utilize to either benefit both themselves and gamers or just themselves. We are in a generation of gaming where many game companies are out to just make money, not make great games, have great customer service and make profit. But of course, not all game companies are bad and anyone can tell them apart if they pay attention to what is going on in the gaming industry altogether. Some value quality, integrity and feedback while others value get rich quick schemes.

    As long as consumers accept ill business practices which they continuously support, they get what they deserve and pay for...expensive mediocrity. And thus the cycle repeats while nothing ever changes because some don't see the bigger picture.

    I agree with you as I do not not care about the dlc as for me it covers up what is missing in Sims 4 for me. I am an feature person and that what drives me and if both features and dlc is being added together that for me would be great and your comment about the granddaddy of them all The Sims was fun just as it was hard to maintain my sims it was the themes and not the dlc that mattered to me also it was not 3D. Sims 4 is what it is and some like it for what it is but for me it is not bad but it is not all it can be as I see EA/Maxis has no intentional of taking it to the max. All this debate about which version is better will never stop.
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  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 11,966 Member
    lisamwitt wrote: »
    Goldmoldar wrote: »
    An developer actually stated that and if that was said it said an whole lot about thier customers especially that speak out against an product.

    The screenshot showing it was removed from the thread because it's considered inappropriate to show someone's personal account, but basically someone said something to him and his response was that he doesn't go to forums because all forums are trash. It is his personal account, not his guru account, so he is allowed obviously to say whatever he wants. And he's entitled to his opinion that forums are trash. The problem is, that when you are someone who is somewhat high profile because of your job (he's a senior producer for Maxis), you do have to be cautious for the good of your position. He could have just said he doesn't frequent forums. It just doesn't suggest that he cares for the fans at all, and you know he'd never say such a thing on his guru account. Which is where the other tweets, and the main focus of this thread actually, are from.
    Hopefully the conversation didn't get too derailed.

    That is true and even if that got lifted from his personal account the cat is out of the bag regardless of what account was used and that info may work against him or her.
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  • Deshong04Deshong04 Posts: 4,278 Member
    Goldmoldar wrote: »
    Deshong04 wrote: »
    So if you saw Grants latest tweets. How they have more dlc,and did more than sims 3 did. The other tweet well they have 200 people which is twice what sims 3 had? To be fair he was replying other tweets. These tweets do not really help the case at all.Yes you do get more dlc,but still, there is a lot missing content. Why the sims 3 had less content. The expansion packs felt meatier in comparison. We also had the store for certain objects.(Why it was overpriced). So basically you have more DLC,and more of a team . We still feel like we have less content,and the game feels empty. That is not a good sign :/ .

    Even TS (2000) when I go back to play it doesn't have much in buy or build mode with all EP's compared to TS2 or TS3, yet is still abundant in gameplay and extremely fun to play. What content that is available is very well thought out and adds to meaningful gameplay. The Sims themselves are also quite charming and likable. So the truth is that more content/objects/DLC/Microtransactions/Macrotransactions does not equal a better or the best game. Especially when the content's quality is severely lacking as well as its usefulness/versatility. Which was said already but I wanted to reiterate it.

    DLC, etc can be a good thing but it can also be a very bad thing and depends on the game company and how they utilize to either benefit both themselves and gamers or just themselves. We are in a generation of gaming where many game companies are out to just make money, not make great games, have great customer service and make profit. But of course, not all game companies are bad and anyone can tell them apart if they pay attention to what is going on in the gaming industry altogether. Some value quality, integrity and feedback while others value get rich quick schemes.

    As long as consumers accept ill business practices which they continuously support, they get what they deserve and pay for...expensive mediocrity. And thus the cycle repeats while nothing ever changes because some don't see the bigger picture.

    I agree with you as I do not not care about the dlc as for me it covers up what is missing in Sims 4 for me. I am an feature person and that what drives me and if both features and dlc is being added together that for me would be great and your comment about the granddaddy of them all The Sims was fun just as it was hard to maintain my sims it was the themes and not the dlc that mattered to me also it was not 3D. Sims 4 is what it is and some like it for what it is but for me it is not bad but it is not all it can be as I see EA/Maxis has no intentional of taking it to the max. All this debate about which version is better will never stop.

    Or how I view it is comparing the workmanship put into each game and how that affected the entirety of the product and franchise as a whole. This is a franchise, a series of games that builds from the last or so it used to. You do not count in succession like 1, 2, 4. And even then that was wrong because toddlers were not even in the base game and gameplay was and still is, by my standards, extremely shallow compared to TS2 base game. Personally, I think it is smart to compare because otherwise you would never know whether you are getting your money's worth or getting ripped off. But I don't know maybe some like being ignorant. Is ignorance bliss?

    If I'm thinking about spending money on something...it better be worth it and yes I will break down and look at as much as can to get a clear view of whether a game is good or not. Don't go naming a game TS4 when clearly that is far from the truth. But I'm not one who was fooled by that anyway but nonetheless also shows a dramatic change in attitude that was not present in TS/TS2/TS3.

    On the bright side, at least there are still games out there I'm looking forward to. Quality gaming isn't dead...yet.
    “What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
    Stand a little taller
    Doesn't mean I'm lonely when I'm alone
    What doesn't kill you makes a fighter
    Footsteps even lighter”
  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 11,966 Member
    Deshong04 wrote: »
    Goldmoldar wrote: »
    Deshong04 wrote: »
    So if you saw Grants latest tweets. How they have more dlc,and did more than sims 3 did. The other tweet well they have 200 people which is twice what sims 3 had? To be fair he was replying other tweets. These tweets do not really help the case at all.Yes you do get more dlc,but still, there is a lot missing content. Why the sims 3 had less content. The expansion packs felt meatier in comparison. We also had the store for certain objects.(Why it was overpriced). So basically you have more DLC,and more of a team . We still feel like we have less content,and the game feels empty. That is not a good sign :/ .

    Even TS (2000) when I go back to play it doesn't have much in buy or build mode with all EP's compared to TS2 or TS3, yet is still abundant in gameplay and extremely fun to play. What content that is available is very well thought out and adds to meaningful gameplay. The Sims themselves are also quite charming and likable. So the truth is that more content/objects/DLC/Microtransactions/Macrotransactions does not equal a better or the best game. Especially when the content's quality is severely lacking as well as its usefulness/versatility. Which was said already but I wanted to reiterate it.

    DLC, etc can be a good thing but it can also be a very bad thing and depends on the game company and how they utilize to either benefit both themselves and gamers or just themselves. We are in a generation of gaming where many game companies are out to just make money, not make great games, have great customer service and make profit. But of course, not all game companies are bad and anyone can tell them apart if they pay attention to what is going on in the gaming industry altogether. Some value quality, integrity and feedback while others value get rich quick schemes.

    As long as consumers accept ill business practices which they continuously support, they get what they deserve and pay for...expensive mediocrity. And thus the cycle repeats while nothing ever changes because some don't see the bigger picture.

    I agree with you as I do not not care about the dlc as for me it covers up what is missing in Sims 4 for me. I am an feature person and that what drives me and if both features and dlc is being added together that for me would be great and your comment about the granddaddy of them all The Sims was fun just as it was hard to maintain my sims it was the themes and not the dlc that mattered to me also it was not 3D. Sims 4 is what it is and some like it for what it is but for me it is not bad but it is not all it can be as I see EA/Maxis has no intentional of taking it to the max. All this debate about which version is better will never stop.

    Or how I view it is comparing the workmanship put into each game and how that affected the entirety of the product and franchise as a whole. This is a franchise, a series of games that builds from the last or so it used to. You do not count in succession like 1, 2, 4. And even then that was wrong because toddlers were not even in the base game and gameplay was and still is, by my standards, extremely shallow compared to TS2 base game. Personally, I think it is smart to compare because otherwise you would never know whether you are getting your money's worth or getting ripped off. But I don't know maybe some like being ignorant. Is ignorance bliss?

    If I'm thinking about spending money on something...it better be worth it and yes I will break down and look at as much as can to get a clear view of whether a game is good or not. Don't go naming a game TS4 when clearly that is far from the truth. But I'm not one who was fooled by that anyway but nonetheless also shows a dramatic change in attitude that was not present in TS/TS2/TS3.

    On the bright side, at least there are still games out there I'm looking forward to. Quality gaming isn't dead...yet.

    No, quality gaming is not dead yet as I am enjoying some of those good quality games right now and some of the school games as well. :)
    Omen by HP Intel®️ Core™️ i9- 12900K W/ RGB Liquid Cooler 32GB Nvidia RTX 3080 10Gb ASUS Ultra-Wide 34" Curved Monitor. Omen By HP Intel® Core™ i7-12800HX 32 GB Nvidia 3070 Ti 8 GB 17.3 Screen
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited March 2019
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    To each their own and we will all value different things in this game, but the sims in 4 are anything but unique. In fact they're all painfully identical, more so than in Sims 3 where the fact that they looked like each other had everything to do with CAS being hard to handle (it requires some effort to avoid the waxy look; nothing sliders and CC won't take care of though). But once you've created a sim you love, they are far more unique in your game than in Sims 4. Also where looks are concerned, apart from the fact that the emotions override their actions and reactions (personality), they also override their facial features, destroying all uniqueness you managed to give them when they were looking at you with a straight face in CAS. And that's just looks. I really don't care what people think of sims in Sims 3, but calling sims in Sims 4 unique is too far of a stretch. Can't leave this unmentioned because it's actually the worst flaw in this entire game. How much better would this game be if they actually were unique.

    As for easy build mode: easy isn't necessarily better. It's great I can throw in a room anywhere I want to, but why would I if I can't decorate it any old way I want to? Filling a room with preset objects that often don't even match is not how I want to spend my afternoon. Building in Sims 3 can be hard, but I happen to like a challenge. That really doesn't put me off.

    Quite a few Sims 3 packs aren't in depth, quite a few are. They also came with open venues. Is a club system in depth? That's debatable. Ordering a bunch of sims to start doing the same thing. For me that's as captivating as watching paint dry. Not saying that's objective, if you do like it you do, but it's got nothing to do with depth. Depth lies in the way sims react to each other. Do they remember things, do they treat their fellow sims the way we would if we were in their situation. That for me defines depth. Being able to walk into a restaurant is not more in depth than walking into a tomb and explore it, or walk into a karaoke bar and perform with an audience. Not sure what Sims 4's holiday sytem is, must have missed that one. Sims in 3 can take a few days off and have a holiday in their own world. Go camping, go swimming in the sea, go scuba diving, I can come up with a lot of ways they can spend a holiday. And they can also do it in France, China or Egypt if they want to. Or in the future even.

    The very fact Sims 3 is so much more open and added so much different, diverse stuff, makes it way more in depth and adds numerous different things to do. Because it tickles our imagination and there's nothing deeper than that. Joining the forums here broadened my view on this, because I met simmers who were doing things in their games that never even had occurred to me. I don't think Sims 4 offers that, because the gameplay is so scripted and one dimensional. The developers came up with a plan and we play it. And each and every simmer has no choice but playing the very same game.

    Interestingly, when I go back to TS3, it's the club system that I miss the most from TS4. As much as I love the open worlds, bringing a group of Sims together there is quite difficult.
    Sims 3 has a grouping system. Your group just won’t automatically start doing the same stuff you ordered them to do and I prefer that myself. Like I said, it’s subjective, I appreciate people like the group system. But it just doesn’t feel in depth to me because it encourages identical behaviour (and these sims are very identical as it is already). For me it’s more in depth when my group starts behaving like individuals, in unpredictable ways, yet loyal to how they feel about each other and to their traits.

    P.s. I should also add (and again, this is totally personal as well of course) that I notice I in fact don’t like everything going so easy in my game. Like, I notice it feels good to me when I invite a sim over and they say “no, I don’t have time right now”, or “sorry but do I know you, why should I waste my time visiting you?” Initially I liked it in Sims 4 that every sim I invited would show up with a snap of my finger, no more frustrations in that respect! But over time I discovered I actually like that frustration, not everything going exactly the way I want it.
    Post edited by JoAnne65 on
    5JZ57S6.png
  • invisiblgirlinvisiblgirl Posts: 1,709 Member
    edited March 2019
    logion wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »

    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.

    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though. When you have a development team of 200 developers pretty much any decision becomes a large financial investment which is why they often have to make hard decisions, do they add a feature that users have not used much in the past but people are very vocal about it? Or do they make something else based on other feedback and usage data?

    Toddlers were probably one of those hard decisions they had to make, like many others they have probably done. I think it is very hard to justify an investment like payment for 200 developers for a year if they do not have some statistics to back it up.

    I am not saying you are wrong, I think when there are so much money involved it is sadly very difficult to please everyone. I hope that the team gets a larger budget so they can be more free in their decisions. Given that the sims4 seems to have sold very well, while other franchises like Battlefield and Anthem have not. It could be possible that it could happen.

    People are more likely to voice complaints than compliments, so forums aren't entirely reliable, either. I'd guess that the increase in sales of DLC was a pretty good validation for toddlers, but other things are less clear. People might not be playing a particular feature because it either doesn't work properly or doesn't have the features they expect. Babies, for example - you could hypothesize that people would play babies more if they were more interesting to play. It would be a mistake to suppose that no one wants to play babies based on telemetry alone. Polls only reach certain players, depending on your delivery system.
    Post edited by invisiblgirl on
    I just want things to match. :'(
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 9,585 Member
    logion wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »

    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.

    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though. When you have a development team of 200 developers pretty much any decision becomes a large financial investment which is why they often have to make hard decisions, do they add a feature that users have not used much in the past but people are very vocal about it? Or do they make something else based on other feedback and usage data?

    Toddlers were probably one of those hard decisions they had to make, like many others they have probably done. I think it is very hard to justify an investment like payment for 200 developers for a year if they do not have some statistics to back it up.

    I am not saying you are wrong, I think when there are so much money involved it is sadly very difficult to please everyone. I hope that the team gets a larger budget so they can be more free in their decisions. Given that the sims4 seems to have sold very well, while other franchises like Battlefield and Anthem have not. It could be possible that it could happen.

    People are more likely to voice complaints than complements, so forums aren't entirely reliable, either. I'd guess that the increase in sales of DLC was a pretty good validation for toddlers, but other things are less clear. People might not be playing a particular feature because it either doesn't work properly or doesn't have the features they expect. Babies, for example - you could hypothesize that people would play babies more if they were more interesting to play. It would be a mistake to suppose that no one wants to play babies based on telemetry alone. Polls only reach certain players, depending on your delivery system.

    I know I would play babies if they were better
    more for sim kids and more drama please
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    TS1299 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    logion wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »

    Usage data trying to prove what Simmers like is a flawed system. They used it to determine if they should include toddlers in TS4 before release. Rachel stated they went by telemetry of no one was playing toddlers in TS3 that much. How'd that work out? It was the number one reason players would not buy TS4, (those who were even interested at all) and or why they would not buy any more packs for a few years until toddlers were added. Usage data can't tell them what players like, maybe players didn't like toddlers in TS3 as much as TS2 and didn't play them as often but that didn't mean they didn't want them in the next game like TS4. Rachel said it was the best decision she had made about TS4 not to include them all because of their telemetry of TS3. I would say they were totally wrong about that.

    Vodo doll in TS4> telemetry showed them no one was playing with it that much in TS4...reasons? Telemetry couldn't tell them why. But the why was because it was lame, it was all happy, happy. People had expected there to be some evilness about it, and there was none. It shouldn't mean they just add it to other activities, but to fix it to work as it's intended like a dark object with more evil consequences.

    Woohoo, sure there was a lot of woohoo because of that contest, but they should't use that to determine if players want more woohoo, most hate it in TS4 because of the high fives and the silliness of it instead of the romance. It showed a lot of woohoo but only because they were promised a free reward,DLC they wanted.

    You can use telemetry to say anything you want and prove any number they want, but it will never replace just asking the gamers.

    If they could, I am sure they would go back and change things differently based on community feedback and statistics, rarely game development studios have the time or the money for it though. When you have a development team of 200 developers pretty much any decision becomes a large financial investment which is why they often have to make hard decisions, do they add a feature that users have not used much in the past but people are very vocal about it? Or do they make something else based on other feedback and usage data?

    Toddlers were probably one of those hard decisions they had to make, like many others they have probably done. I think it is very hard to justify an investment like payment for 200 developers for a year if they do not have some statistics to back it up.

    I am not saying you are wrong, I think when there are so much money involved it is sadly very difficult to please everyone. I hope that the team gets a larger budget so they can be more free in their decisions. Given that the sims4 seems to have sold very well, while other franchises like Battlefield and Anthem have not. It could be possible that it could happen.

    We don't know if they get a big enough budget or not. This is all speculation, they may get more than enough, we just don't know. But what we do know is TS4 sold more after they created toddlers for it.

    IF there is one thing that they could do with the telemetry was instead of giving more of what is already being most played, its great if they use it to find what areas need to improve. Example are the babies. Babies in TS4, and even Elders isn't fleshed out. Grant once told that the telemetry is showing that most simmers don't play them and unsure if they would add anything new for them. They should improve the things that the simmers don't play because most of the time, players want to play them, however they are not just as fun. Its probably the reson why Generations feels the only pack in TS3 that gives many things to Elders. Not a lot play them much.

    Exactly, but you see he might have thought no need to add them next time. Like the voodoo doll not many use according to them so they added it to be used for other things but it wasn't that I didn't want to use it, it was it was too happy. Voodoo isn't all that happy.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • lisamwittlisamwitt Posts: 5,079 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Exactly, but you see he might have thought no need to add them next time. Like the voodoo doll not many use according to them so they added it to be used for other things but it wasn't that I didn't want to use it, it was it was too happy. Voodoo isn't all that happy.

    I loved the voodoo doll in Sims 2, it actually had some good uses and my Sims always had one. The Sims 3 voodoo doll didn't do anything noteworthy, and that's why I never used it. I've used the one in Sims 4 twice, thought it was stupid and now I always just sell it if I get one. If they'd really found out what they needed to know, I think we'd have a an awesome voodoo doll right now.
    Gallery ID: LadyGray01
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited March 2019
    lisamwitt wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Exactly, but you see he might have thought no need to add them next time. Like the voodoo doll not many use according to them so they added it to be used for other things but it wasn't that I didn't want to use it, it was it was too happy. Voodoo isn't all that happy.

    I loved the voodoo doll in Sims 2, it actually had some good uses and my Sims always had one. The Sims 3 voodoo doll didn't do anything noteworthy, and that's why I never used it. I've used the one in Sims 4 twice, thought it was stupid and now I always just sell it if I get one. If they'd really found out what they needed to know, I think we'd have a an awesome voodoo doll right now.
    Curious (because I agree the voodoo doll in both Sims 3 and 4 is meh), what did the voodoo dol in Sims 2 do?
    5JZ57S6.png
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 9,585 Member
    lisamwitt wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Exactly, but you see he might have thought no need to add them next time. Like the voodoo doll not many use according to them so they added it to be used for other things but it wasn't that I didn't want to use it, it was it was too happy. Voodoo isn't all that happy.

    I loved the voodoo doll in Sims 2, it actually had some good uses and my Sims always had one. The Sims 3 voodoo doll didn't do anything noteworthy, and that's why I never used it. I've used the one in Sims 4 twice, thought it was stupid and now I always just sell it if I get one. If they'd really found out what they needed to know, I think we'd have a an awesome voodoo doll right now.

    what did the doll in 2 do @lisamwitt I have to and I've never seen it
    more for sim kids and more drama please
  • lisamwittlisamwitt Posts: 5,079 Member
    @JoAnne65 @comicsforlife Let's see, you could warm up or cool down a person, which I only used once or twice when some stupid Sim decided they were going to hang out outside until they froze. You could Saturate, which made them have to pee. Stinkify, which obviously made them smell. Shake up and agitate, which could make them throw up or get mad. I rarely used those.
    The options I loved and used ALL the time were Friendship, which raised the friendship bar and Romance, which raised their romantic relationship. The voodoo doll would occasionally backfire and make your Sim's motives drop. So I downloaded a mod to prevent that.
    Gallery ID: LadyGray01
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