Forum Announcement, Click Here to Read More From EA_Cade.
The emotion system, was it worth it Simmers?
TOLKIEN
Posts: 1,594 Member
I love telling stories in my Sims games, I often start with an overall idea and end point. Create a few key players - er sims and locations - then set them free, following certain story points I want them to hit and let other random stuff happen along the way.
The emotion system has been somewhat of a challenge for me, but created also situations which added new layers to my stories. For example I created a couple with a very jealous wife, who "emotionally" in-game would get very stressed based on jealous mechanic when her husband wasn't around. This mechanic forced me to play the husband in new ways, such as leaving the home lot and go collecting down the road in the local park while his wife was still sleeping.
This added to my story, because I never planned on him going for early morning adventures, which followed having him to explain (to his wife) why there was a bunch of new fruit in their fridge overnight. Which then turned into, "why are you leaving the house so early in the morning? What are you hiding"...
So it totally snowballed lol.
So in this case emotions worked for me, but in most cases I find the emotion system cumbersome and rely on emotion "cheats" to force sims to "act" the way I need them (for specific situations) or even be present for them (more annoying). For example say I want to take 2 sims dancing, but the husband has decided to be sad because reasons - so now I have to perform a bunch of actions to get him in the right mood instead of just sending them off to the club.
While this might seem realistic and easy to fix, as a story teller - well think of me as a director, I need my sims/stars to do what I need them to do when I need them to do it. Not spend 10 minutes gaming their emotions so I can put together my next scene. I can't even imagine how frustrating this must be for people who make sim movies to deal with, especially dealing with multiple sims.
On that note, I recall the developers also saying how much more time expansion, ect packs take programming for the emotional system now too. Which makes sense, but if that adds to development cost and time...well was it really worth it?
On the flip side, I've also starting playing the Sims 4 more on release cycles now when I'm not thinking of stories to experience new pack mechanics or gameplay. In those cases the emotion system certainly adds to a Sims personality and its fun to watch them do certain things in certain ways because of emotions. I just wish they didn't feel so "gamey" and change so fast.
The most annoying emotion for me by far is embarrassed, it seems to happen a lot when my Sims say the wrong thing or make some mistake with a skill and until I fix it, negatively effects further gameplay. Like sims cellphones, its the one emotion i'd like to see a lot less of.
So, emotions - love them or do you find them not as fun as expected?
The emotion system has been somewhat of a challenge for me, but created also situations which added new layers to my stories. For example I created a couple with a very jealous wife, who "emotionally" in-game would get very stressed based on jealous mechanic when her husband wasn't around. This mechanic forced me to play the husband in new ways, such as leaving the home lot and go collecting down the road in the local park while his wife was still sleeping.
This added to my story, because I never planned on him going for early morning adventures, which followed having him to explain (to his wife) why there was a bunch of new fruit in their fridge overnight. Which then turned into, "why are you leaving the house so early in the morning? What are you hiding"...
So it totally snowballed lol.
So in this case emotions worked for me, but in most cases I find the emotion system cumbersome and rely on emotion "cheats" to force sims to "act" the way I need them (for specific situations) or even be present for them (more annoying). For example say I want to take 2 sims dancing, but the husband has decided to be sad because reasons - so now I have to perform a bunch of actions to get him in the right mood instead of just sending them off to the club.
While this might seem realistic and easy to fix, as a story teller - well think of me as a director, I need my sims/stars to do what I need them to do when I need them to do it. Not spend 10 minutes gaming their emotions so I can put together my next scene. I can't even imagine how frustrating this must be for people who make sim movies to deal with, especially dealing with multiple sims.
On that note, I recall the developers also saying how much more time expansion, ect packs take programming for the emotional system now too. Which makes sense, but if that adds to development cost and time...well was it really worth it?
On the flip side, I've also starting playing the Sims 4 more on release cycles now when I'm not thinking of stories to experience new pack mechanics or gameplay. In those cases the emotion system certainly adds to a Sims personality and its fun to watch them do certain things in certain ways because of emotions. I just wish they didn't feel so "gamey" and change so fast.
The most annoying emotion for me by far is embarrassed, it seems to happen a lot when my Sims say the wrong thing or make some mistake with a skill and until I fix it, negatively effects further gameplay. Like sims cellphones, its the one emotion i'd like to see a lot less of.
So, emotions - love them or do you find them not as fun as expected?
Post edited by TOLKIEN on
4
Comments
For a while playing the game at first, emotions were super fun and seeing Sims have different movements and actions for emotions was entertaining. I even liked how Sims invited to your home would come over Angry or Sad or Happy, as if they had a life outside of your controlled Sims and something along the way of them coming over riled them up lol (but this eventually got annoying when angry sims would come over, reject everything friendly or funny, be mean, and ruin the relationship
But it did start becoming a chore when I DID start making small stories for them and they were always the wrong emotion, or when deep emotions like sadness after death can get overridden with joy because they're standing in a pretty room. And I relate way too much with using cheats to get Sims in the right moods for different occasions
Honestly, it depends. If it fits the mood, I love seeing Sims in certain emotions, and I still like the idea of emotions period, but sometimes it's a chore. Idk how I'd go about with a solution though...Maybe it'd be better if it went "deeper" and related to traits much more than being easily changed and somewhat comical?
i've never been one to create stories for my sims, at least not in game. i do occasionally want to write about my sims and their lives, and when that happens i just pull up a new document. their emotions don't play a part in the random story i decide to tell.
the emotions can get annoying at times-- i've mentioned before how some moodlets can be a bit over the top-- but otherwise i don't have a problem with them
All my creations are CC free.
They absolutely fit into my game.
It is a life simulation game, not a movie set simulation. And even on a movie set in real life if something happens to the actor or whoever then production is changed, halted or whatever is needed. So I don't see a problem.
It also is no problem for story creating. the emotions are really no different than needs in previous games. You couldn't do lots of things if your fun was low or if your sim was too tired. If you wanna make a good story you play with cheats cause the story is the goal here not gameplay. So... there's no problem.
I have to agree with this. It’s also worth pointing out in the entire history of the sims series sims have always had emotions. It’s not new, the only difference is the box on the bottom left hand corner that says “SAD” “HAPPY” etc
I feel that with my game if I’m playing out a scenario, most of the time the sims don’t have appropriate or normal reactions. For example I had a sim that cheated on his wife, in fact he had a whole second family and one of his children saw his father kissing and being romantic with the other woman. Now of course a normal reaction for a child would be you would think confusion, upset, anger- perhaps a combination of three. The child didn’t care. He just continued watching them oblivious to the whole thing.
Playing the same scenario from another’s perspective, this time of the wife, she very briefly got an angry moodlet when she caught them together but the angry moodlet was buried in happy moodlets. She would happily talk to the “other woman” and would initiate friend,u conversations, jokes, hugs, you name it!
As I was blogging at the time, I found it very immersion breaking to have to make the above sims referenced care. I shouldn’t have to get sims angry so I can pretend for the sake of the
Story that my sims gave a toss. I resented having to force the wife in my scenario and the child to be mean or even hostile to the other woman. I just kept thinking I should not have to make them care. When I looked at my screen shots and realised that if the sims were showing the appropriate emotion I.e anger or sadness it was nothing to do with the situation. It was forced. That was one of the reasons I gave up blogging the sims 4, my stories felt fake and in a way misleading to me and all I kept thinking was if they don’t care why should I?
Of course it can be argued that not every sim should have the same reaction to a scenario like the one above and I do agree but the fact of the matter is they all have the same reaction I,e a moodlet that may or may not get to the surface of moodlets. But there are certain situations in the sims when they have completely unrealistic emotional responses, like cheating.
Emotions sound good on paper but the reality I’ve found in game is emotions can flip flop like a light switch and for the oddest of reasons and more often than not emotions don’t come to the fore front when they should which to me is a huge drawback for storytelling. For me storytelling in the sims 4 is a lot of forcing your sims to be in certain moods or manipulating it and after simming for eighteen years it really bothers me that I have to when I didn’t in all the previous games.
I think it's worth it... I've enjoyed it and still enjoy it for the most part. There are some times I don't think the emotions fit how I would play out a certain sim with those traits and sometimes resulting emotions. Or it's too broad in scope. Like I might want to make a husband or wife that is very flirty but only with their significant other, prior to that they are stand offish, or they can shut off that flirty emotion if it doesn't fit the situation for them. Then again I might want to make a sim that flirts with absolutely everyone around them as the way they just are from time to time. I definitely miss having a fear emotion in the game also.. that's probably my biggest grief with the system.
I'd also like the possibility to have a trait that dulls all the emotions for certain sims.. making them more stoic overall. I don't want to utilize a mod that does that for every sim though I just want to have a trait that does it for certain ones. I have run across modded traits like that but I want it in game. Also if we were to get this sort of trait I'd want different types because for instance someone who is laid back and calm might not exhibit this the same way as someone who is apathetic or standoffish or even cold-hearted.
As for storytelling I'm pretty careful with giving sims traits that will help me manipulate them more easily. I think I've played the game enough to know which traits to avoid even if you think they might make sense for your character to have because the resulting emotions are too much and frequent or don't actually fit in when you want them too for that character type.
I'll take evil for instance, because I love using it but it is slapstick bwahahaha.. type of evil. It fits very well with my Dr. Evil or other types like that. I doesn't fit with my Hannibal Lecter though because he would never break into that laugh.. so I don't use it for him. To make him more stoic I have to pick other traits that make his emotions seem more plausible for him.
On a last note if you are asking if it's worth it? This discussion basically is feedback.
You just described not only the emotion system, but the entirety of TS4 in one paragraph: Great ideas suffering from poor execution. As much as I love the game, I could write an essay about those little (and sometimes big) things that sound great at first, but ultimately don't work as they should - but I won't because it would lead too far off-topic.
My problem with emotions is how superficial they are. I had two instances of a husband flirting with another woman while his wife was nearby, one of the wives got angry, the other got sad, and I thought, great - so the traits I give them do matter after all, if two sims react differently to the same situation! But then, disappointment befell me in a different way when the angry wife quickly distracted herself with a lovely chimney fire and her favourite hobby, and suddenly she was very happy... yeah, not just happy, but very happy! The angry moodlet was still there, but once enough time had passed for it to disappear, she never brought it up again and continued to be all love, peace and harmony with her husband like nothing ever happened. This is exactly why we need a memory system.
Another complaint related to the first one, and I recently mentioned this in another thread, is how fickle emotions are. Good luck fulfilling your focused sim's whim to draw a mathematical painting if they're too many steps away from the easel. Chances are they'll walk by several objects in other rooms that will turn their mood around three times with their emotional auras, even though those are supposed to be turned off. (Is this a known bug, by the way?)
I do like the emotion system, or rather, the idea behind it - but the execution would definitely benefit from a revision.
Something wicked this way comes!
I don't use MCCC.
I would LOVE a reward trait "Hard to impress" that would make a Sim immune to environmental buffs. I think that would go a long way to making a Sim more even-tempered.
https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/956513/netz-a-porter-outfits-ready-to-wear-for-your-sims-no-cc-required
Twitter: NetzspannungTS
we all try ...
It's fun to try and manipulate the emotions but I rarely jump through hoops to try and control said emotions. The majority of the time they do whatever needs to be done in whatever their current mood is.
I think tying them to traits more would satisfy more players on both ends of the spectrum as far as game play styles go. I for one am usually a pretty controlling player but I'd still prefer more individuality in my sims. There are a few things that seem to give them individuality but usually feel like I'm playing the same sim most of the time. That could just be my fault though. I tend to pick complementary traits and usually play with a most efficient/maximum achievement goal strategy. I have do have my more "fun" saves though but they still seem kind of tame. I wish we had more personality/base traits and could choose more than 3. I feel like if interactions of unplayed sims were tied to traits it would add more interest to the game but if you like being more controlling and know the sims it adds a bit of strategy and you can still avoid or manipulate the situation.
Bout my only gripe with them, but other than that I like them.
There should be some more reward traits in the store for emotional buffs. Surprised there isn't a trait for a 'Fine' one. Thought it was a nifty trait you could get as a vampire with not being effected by extreme emotions.
Had my sim go over to her mom's house bringing her boyfriend and roommate over for Winterfest. She brought a side dish and was going to cook dinner. Mother wasn't at the house but suddenly popped up, but was angry for some reason and for whatever reason when she greeted her daughter she just threw a drink in her face and everything just snowballed from there and the holiday was pretty much ruined by her mother's mood. Pft. Shocking as it was hilarious.
Day after she called to want to come over and was in a slightly better mood.
I like the unpredictability in the game from the emotions. I know some like to control everything a sim does, but I really like the random surprise at times from it.
With Emotional Inertia, if I want a sim in a certain mood I have to really work for it.
Except when they spend all their time being sad that someone died when I'm 99% sure all my townies are accounted for. Hopefully the patch fixes that.
It’s super annoying to me how the emotional whim can be to paint but in the time it takes the sim to take 2 steps and start painting it has changed already. It’s like every sim has ADD.
IMO it wouldn’t hurt if the emotions were a little more tame and took more effort to achieve and change.
Another annoying thing is how you may want your sim to be in an emotional state like inspired but they make a high quality meal or painting so they become confident instead so all their bonuses and whims change.
I DO like emotions, I just feel they need to be far less fickle.
I do wish that a sim's traits directed more of their autonomous behaviors, but it seems like the point of most traits is to influence emotions. In some cases, if I didn't already know what a sim's traits are, or if I didn't "play along" with their traits by giving them matching careers or skills, I wouldn't be able to tell what traits they had. I rarely pay attention to whims they get, which I suppose are more relevant to their traits, but again, that's me "playing along" with the traits to bring them to life. I just notice over time that this sim gets inspired a lot, and another gets energized more. What i don't really see is my art-loving or creative sims autonomously painting (even though there are 3 easels), nor do i notice my bookworm sims reading books on their own -- they, like everyone else, autonomously play video games and dance to music constantly. Although, i definitely notice my active sims autonomously working out and using gym equipment, and childish sims go bananas for the dollhouse, but that's really it tbh. Instead of getting strong moodlets for me directing sims to do things related to their traits, or tense moodlets for me NOT directing them to do things related to their traits, I would like to see outdoorsy sims just go outside on their own since they like it so much, and klepto sims just go places and swipe things. Bookworm sims should prefer reading over other forms of entertainment and should gravitate towards that on their own, even if there are other options like video games. Regardless of emotions at any given time, I would like to see Sims with these hobby or activity centered traits do them more without me telling them to. The emotional traits -- gloomy, goofball, hot-headed, self-assured, etc., are the ones that you can't miss since they directly show in the emotions of sims that have them, further playing into the idea that the emotions are the star and the traits are just for support. Is this a deal breaker though? Not for me it isn't. The traits may not have as big of an impact on autonomous behavior as I'd like, but they certainly play into the emotions, which matter a great deal in their autonomous behavior AND player-directed behavior. That's what makes sims seem more dynamic.
tl;dr Emotions are the primary impact on behavior, and the traits are only there to influence the emotions (unlike TS3 where the traits were very important/influential). It's different than in the past, and my not be what we expected them to be, but personally I don't mind it.
Kennedy Family Tree
When I make films I often need to film them many many times, then picking a few expressions that are ok, but it needs hours of editing to get a decent result. Even TS2 was better for film making.
That said, the basics of the emotions system seems good to me. With only the base game I didn't like it much, but I think the additions of EPs also added greatly to this system. There's also more ways to achieve the same effects, probably. I never direct my sims to do specific tasks in order to affect their emotions, though. I prefer playing my own game.