@Shadyboop yeah, that's kind of my problem too, but okay let's look at this as if we could separate their personal lives from their political plight. If they weren't a forbidden love (because their factions were not at war), and if they were not perched on the razor's edge of a bloody conflict, and if they weren't both being called upon by their families to be things they are not necessarily comfortable being (in Alex's case, king of a people and land he doesn't really feel connected to and in Henry's case being a member of an assassin's guild) then we can view them as an insular pair and then I could see that they could enjoy an equality not really possible under other conditions.
"You ask me if there'll come a time when I grow tired of you...Never, my love..." -The Association (1967)
@Bugsie2016 I hope for my sake that's a good thing.
I can see the side that Henry is considering to have less power because he isn't physically doing anything or given something to actually do by Alex. But, on the other hand, Henry does have an important role. This might just be me but he is the one that will stop Alex going to far because he has the power to do that. I don't think we've seen it much but Alex respects Henry's thoughts on everything so he will stop Alex going a bit crazy with his plans. Alex has given him that power. Whether he did it on purpose or not, he did so and so Henry has some power in their partnership. Their relationship isn't something I'm going to delve into because that is different.
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
"You ask me if there'll come a time when I grow tired of you...Never, my love..." -The Association (1967)
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
@Bugsie2016 I agree that Alex is desperate (he has nothing to lose but Henry), but I disagree when you say that he has not given Henry the chance to prove that he can use that power. In the chapter where Alex and Henry go to Disneyland, Alex literally puts his life in Henry's hands. He can be quoted as saying that he would do anything Henry wanted him to, and Henry leads him to the land of the dead and right up to death's door. Henry has the power to save Alex right there- throw him a lifeline and he can't even say, "I love you" to him. And Alex is desperate for that, in that moment he needs Henry to save him and, in my opinion (and this is JUST my opinion) Henry fails to use that power he has been given.
"You ask me if there'll come a time when I grow tired of you...Never, my love..." -The Association (1967)
@Bugsie2016 I agree that Alex is desperate (he has nothing to lose but Henry), but I disagree when you say that he has not given Henry the chance to prove that he can use that power. In the chapter where Alex and Henry go to Disneyland, Alex literally puts his life in Henry's hands. He can be quoted as saying that he would do anything Henry wanted him to, and Henry leads him to the land of the dead and right up to death's door. Henry has the power to save Alex right there- throw him a lifeline and he can't even say, "I love you" to him. And Alex is desperate for that, in that moment he needs Henry to save him and, in my opinion (and this is JUST my opinion) Henry fails to use that power he has been given.
I didn't mean on a personal level he hasn't given him a chance. I mean on the war situations where Alex has made decisions (such as killing Auntie etc), he hasn't given Henry any say in those decisions.
@Bugsie2016 I don't qualify that distinction. Alex needs to assess Henry's ability to handle and utilize his power by observing Henry's behavior and judging from it what he can expect Henry to do in subsequent situations. If you can't walk, you can't run.
"You ask me if there'll come a time when I grow tired of you...Never, my love..." -The Association (1967)
@Bugsie2016 I don't qualify that distinction. Alex needs to assess Henry's ability to handle and utilize his power by observing Henry's behavior and judging from it what he can expect Henry to do in subsequent situations. If you can't walk, you can't run.
I'm not making any more arguments so think what you shall.
@Shadyboop yeah, that's kind of my problem too, but okay let's look at this as if we could separate their personal lives from their political plight. If they weren't a forbidden love (because their factions were not at war), and if they were not perched on the razor's edge of a bloody conflict, and if they weren't both being called upon by their families to be things they are not necessarily comfortable being (in Alex's case, king of a people and land he doesn't really feel connected to and in Henry's case being a member of an assassin's guild) then we can view them as an insular pair and then I could see that they could enjoy an equality not really possible under other conditions.
(Hi, sorry I was away) @kirivian This is partially what I meant. However I didn't mean pretend the political part was not there. What I meant was that we should not confuse Alex's powerful status as him having power over Henry in his personal life.
@Bugsie2016 I hope for my sake that's a good thing.
I can see the side that Henry is considering to have less power because he isn't physically doing anything or given something to actually do by Alex. But, on the other hand, Henry does have an important role. This might just be me but he is the one that will stop Alex going to far because he has the power to do that. I don't think we've seen it much but Alex respects Henry's thoughts on everything so he will stop Alex going a bit crazy with his plans. Alex has given him that power. Whether he did it on purpose or not, he did so and so Henry has some power in their partnership. Their relationship isn't something I'm going to delve into because that is different.
Essentially, Henry is Alex's reality check.
@Bugsie2016 this is a really good analysis. You're absolutely right that Henry is Alex's reality check and hmm... well, he could very well have an important role to play. After all, he is the protagonist. XD Yeah, Alex does respect his opinions and as we saw in Alex Has A Pen Pal 2, he stopped Alex from tipping over the edge. As Alex says in his letter, Henry is his rock.
@simscognito I tend to see relationships as power exchanges (I know this is not how most people view relationships), but for me it's difficult to imagine being that close to someone without both parties having some power over each other. What I mean is, in my closest relationships, I give power to the other party simply by trusting them with my truth, and if the relationship is reciprocal I expect that power over them (so to speak) to be given to me. That they will trust me to hold and protect their truth even as I trust them to hold and protect mine. I think it is pretty rare for such an exchange to be perfectly equal - especially since there are many facets to relationships (in some facets of the relationship one party may hold more power than the other and still hold much less in a different facet). The more facets there are to the relationship the more complicated the balance becomes to discern by observation.
If you hire a lawyer, you give them a certain power over you and your affairs, but as they are your employee you have a fair amount of power over them, but while the balance of power is still fairly equal overall, it can be grossly unequal in regards to specifics of the relationship. Is the lawyer defending you in a murder trial where you are at risk of being executed? or helping you write your will? Because different things are expected from each party in order to fulfill the requirements of the relationship. Outside parties (in this case readers) can only base their conclusions based on what they see (what the writer shows them). In a case like this lawyer situation the power exchange as it shifts, can be pretty easily discerned by someone on the outside of the relationship as soon as they know what the lawyer was hired to do.
Now consider that you instead observe a relationship between let's say a couple in the park. You have to rely on the subtleties of body language and so forth to make a judgement about that relationship because there are no other clues to what that relationship may be. Perhaps they are holding hands and laughing, they would appear to have a fair balance of power, but let's suppose instead, one of them were speaking harshly to the other, the other might be looking down and appear stressed, or they might be looking right into the eye of their partner and have a defiant look on. As an observer, you would probably judge that the first example puts the person being spoken to in a weaker position in terms of the power exchange in their relationship and in the second example they might appear to be more equal in that power exchange.
Regardless of how that exchange is balanced, IMO (and only my opinion here), there are subtleties to the exchange of power between two people who are in a relationship (especially one that is close), that can be observed and judged by others (some of the facets are clearer to outside parties than others). Whether that judgement is fair or correct is irrelevant because the person judging is drawing his/her conclusions from their observation of the couple - not from divine knowledge of the relationship and it's dynamic. So, as a reader I need to clearly observe what the writer wants me to see about the exchange of power between the parties in question. When the exchange is not clear than the judgement will likely be less in alignment with what the writer wants the reader to see or understand.
In the case of Alex and Henry, my observations of them, sometimes leads me to judgements that are at odds with my understanding of them as a couple based on the rest of my observation of them. On a personal level, Alex will often place himself at Henry's mercy and/or be open to Henry's truth, but Henry from my observation (and this is just my opinion based on what I see them doing with each other in the story), isn't as clear. Sometimes, and in this I am referring to their personal relationship - not their political one, he comes across as a source of great strength and sometimes as quite the opposite, very dependent on Alex for guidance - almost childlike. *edit* and I rarely (not sure if I have ever) see him put himself at Alex's mercy or be completely open to Alex's truth. In that facet there is little observable equality in the balance of their relationship and so I expect that that truth carries through to the rest of their relationship, but then it doesn't because... insert proofs. So as you can see, confusion for me the reader ensues.
Post edited by kirivian on
"You ask me if there'll come a time when I grow tired of you...Never, my love..." -The Association (1967)
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
@Bugsie2016 what about when Alex asks Henry's opinion about whether he should kill Aunty. That's pretty political.
About Henry realising that Alex has given him power. That's really interesting... hmm... yeah, that is plausible. I think it might come more into play on this political level when they're married.
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
@Bugsie2016 what about when Alex asks Henry's opinion about whether he should kill Aunty. That's pretty political.
About Henry realising that Alex has given him power. That's really interesting... hmm... yeah, that is plausible. I think it might come more into play on this political level when they're married.
this went from a cute story about teens to yas talking about murder. lol.
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
@Bugsie2016 what about when Alex asks Henry's opinion about whether he should kill Aunty. That's pretty political.
About Henry realising that Alex has given him power. That's really interesting... hmm... yeah, that is plausible. I think it might come more into play on this political level when they're married.
this went from a cute story about teens to yas talking about murder. lol.
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
@Bugsie2016 what about when Alex asks Henry's opinion about whether he should kill Aunty. That's pretty political.
About Henry realising that Alex has given him power. That's really interesting... hmm... yeah, that is plausible. I think it might come more into play on this political level when they're married.
this went from a cute story about teens to yas talking about murder. lol.
@Bugsie2016 I agree, Alex is asking Henry to guide him. My argument was that, Henry isn't doing it. He has the power to do it, but I haven't seen him exercise that power yet.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
@Bugsie2016 what about when Alex asks Henry's opinion about whether he should kill Aunty. That's pretty political.
About Henry realising that Alex has given him power. That's really interesting... hmm... yeah, that is plausible. I think it might come more into play on this political level when they're married.
this went from a cute story about teens to yas talking about murder. lol.
@simscognito I tend to see relationships as power exchanges (I know this is not how most people view relationships), but for me it's difficult to imagine being that close to someone without both parties having some power over each other. What I mean is, in my closest relationships, I give power to the other party simply by trusting them with my truth, and if the relationship is reciprocal I expect that power over them (so to speak) to be given to me. That they will trust me to hold and protect their truth even as I trust them to hold and protect mine. I think it is pretty rare for such an exchange to be perfectly equal - especially since there are many facets to relationships (in some facets of the relationship one party may hold more power than the other and still hold much less in a different facet). The more facets there are to the relationship the more complicated the balance becomes to discern by observation.
If you hire a lawyer, you give them a certain power over you and your affairs, but as they are your employee you have a fair amount of power over them, but while the balance of power is still fairly equal overall, it can be grossly unequal in regards to specifics of the relationship. Is the lawyer defending you in a murder trial where you are at risk of being executed? or helping you write your will? Because different things are expected from each party in order to fulfill the requirements of the relationship. Outside parties (in this case readers) can only base their conclusions based on what they see (what the writer shows them). In a case like this lawyer situation the power exchange as it shifts, can be pretty easily discerned by someone on the outside of the relationship as soon as they know what the lawyer was hired to do.
Now consider that you instead observe a relationship between let's say a couple in the park. You have to rely on the subtleties of body language and so forth to make a judgement about that relationship because there are no other clues to what that relationship may be. Perhaps they are holding hands and laughing, they would appear to have a fair balance of power, but let's suppose instead, one of them were speaking harshly to the other, the other might be looking down and appear stressed, or they might be looking right into the eye of their partner and have a defiant look on. As an observer, you would probably judge that the first example puts the person being spoken to in a weaker position in terms of the power exchange in their relationship and in the second example they might appear to be more equal in that power exchange.
Regardless of how that exchange is balanced, IMO (and only my opinion here), there are subtleties to the exchange of power between two people who are in a relationship (especially one that is close), that can be observed and judged by others (some of the facets are clearer to outside parties than others). Whether that judgement is fair or correct is irrelevant because the person judging is drawing his/her conclusions from their observation of the couple - not from divine knowledge of the relationship and it's dynamic. So, as a reader I need to clearly observe what the writer wants me to see about the exchange of power between the parties in question. When the exchange is not clear than the judgement will likely be less in alignment with what the writer wants the reader to see or understand.
In the case of Alex and Henry, my observations of them, sometimes leads me to judgements that are at odds with my understanding of them as a couple based on the rest of my observation of them. On a personal level, Alex will often place himself at Henry's mercy and/or be open to Henry's truth, but Henry from my observation (and this is just my opinion based on what I see them doing with each other in the story), isn't as clear. Sometimes, and in this I am referring to their personal relationship - not their political one, he comes across as a source of great strength and sometimes as quite the opposite, very dependent on Alex for guidance - almost childlike. *edit* and I rarely (not sure if I have ever) see him put himself at Alex's mercy or be completely open to Alex's truth. In that facet there is little observable equality in the balance of their relationship and so I expect that that truth carries through to the rest of their relationship, but then it doesn't because... insert proofs. So as you can see, confusion for me the reader ensues.
@kirivian I agree that readers should form their own opinions and draw their own conclusions of a piece of writing. That's the beauty of the author - reader relationship. The author shares their work and the readers interpret it based on their own values, beliefs and preconceptions.
I like that because then there's potential for a lot of different opinions and readings on the same text.
I'm sorry but I have nothing to add here. I've run out of argument, like Bugsie, but this has been fun. XD
I would like to ask one thing though, what do you see as opening up to someone's truth?
Comments
nvm. But still, they are equals in certain ways. Try looking at another angle
I'm more comfortable with you trying. I actually have no idea at the moment on how to see other perspectives.
I can see the side that Henry is considering to have less power because he isn't physically doing anything or given something to actually do by Alex. But, on the other hand, Henry does have an important role. This might just be me but he is the one that will stop Alex going to far because he has the power to do that. I don't think we've seen it much but Alex respects Henry's thoughts on everything so he will stop Alex going a bit crazy with his plans. Alex has given him that power. Whether he did it on purpose or not, he did so and so Henry has some power in their partnership. Their relationship isn't something I'm going to delve into because that is different.
Essentially, Henry is Alex's reality check.
I don't think he has had much of a chance to do so. We'll see it. Everything Alex has done so far hasn't really involved him asking Henry for advice. At least on a non relationship level. Plus, Henry needs to realise that Alex has given him that power. The power to tell him no and not to push things too far.
I feel Henry is the thing stopping Alex doing something that could get himself killed. Alex has nothing to lose but Henry.
I didn't mean on a personal level he hasn't given him a chance. I mean on the war situations where Alex has made decisions (such as killing Auntie etc), he hasn't given Henry any say in those decisions.
I'm not making any more arguments so think what you shall.
(Hi, sorry I was away)
@kirivian This is partially what I meant. However I didn't mean pretend the political part was not there. What I meant was that we should not confuse Alex's powerful status as him having power over Henry in his personal life.
@Bugsie2016 this is a really good analysis. You're absolutely right that Henry is Alex's reality check and hmm... well, he could very well have an important role to play. After all, he is the protagonist. XD Yeah, Alex does respect his opinions and as we saw in Alex Has A Pen Pal 2, he stopped Alex from tipping over the edge. As Alex says in his letter, Henry is his rock.
If you hire a lawyer, you give them a certain power over you and your affairs, but as they are your employee you have a fair amount of power over them, but while the balance of power is still fairly equal overall, it can be grossly unequal in regards to specifics of the relationship. Is the lawyer defending you in a murder trial where you are at risk of being executed? or helping you write your will? Because different things are expected from each party in order to fulfill the requirements of the relationship. Outside parties (in this case readers) can only base their conclusions based on what they see (what the writer shows them). In a case like this lawyer situation the power exchange as it shifts, can be pretty easily discerned by someone on the outside of the relationship as soon as they know what the lawyer was hired to do.
Now consider that you instead observe a relationship between let's say a couple in the park. You have to rely on the subtleties of body language and so forth to make a judgement about that relationship because there are no other clues to what that relationship may be. Perhaps they are holding hands and laughing, they would appear to have a fair balance of power, but let's suppose instead, one of them were speaking harshly to the other, the other might be looking down and appear stressed, or they might be looking right into the eye of their partner and have a defiant look on. As an observer, you would probably judge that the first example puts the person being spoken to in a weaker position in terms of the power exchange in their relationship and in the second example they might appear to be more equal in that power exchange.
Regardless of how that exchange is balanced, IMO (and only my opinion here), there are subtleties to the exchange of power between two people who are in a relationship (especially one that is close), that can be observed and judged by others (some of the facets are clearer to outside parties than others). Whether that judgement is fair or correct is irrelevant because the person judging is drawing his/her conclusions from their observation of the couple - not from divine knowledge of the relationship and it's dynamic. So, as a reader I need to clearly observe what the writer wants me to see about the exchange of power between the parties in question. When the exchange is not clear than the judgement will likely be less in alignment with what the writer wants the reader to see or understand.
In the case of Alex and Henry, my observations of them, sometimes leads me to judgements that are at odds with my understanding of them as a couple based on the rest of my observation of them. On a personal level, Alex will often place himself at Henry's mercy and/or be open to Henry's truth, but Henry from my observation (and this is just my opinion based on what I see them doing with each other in the story), isn't as clear. Sometimes, and in this I am referring to their personal relationship - not their political one, he comes across as a source of great strength and sometimes as quite the opposite, very dependent on Alex for guidance - almost childlike. *edit* and I rarely (not sure if I have ever) see him put himself at Alex's mercy or be completely open to Alex's truth. In that facet there is little observable equality in the balance of their relationship and so I expect that that truth carries through to the rest of their relationship, but then it doesn't because... insert proofs. So as you can see, confusion for me the reader ensues.
@Bugsie2016 what about when Alex asks Henry's opinion about whether he should kill Aunty. That's pretty political.
About Henry realising that Alex has given him power. That's really interesting... hmm... yeah, that is plausible. I think it might come more into play on this political level when they're married.
this went from a cute story about teens to yas talking about murder. lol.
@friendsfan367 since when was this a cute story?
well the first chapter was non violent.
But you skipped the prologue.
@kirivian I agree that readers should form their own opinions and draw their own conclusions of a piece of writing. That's the beauty of the author - reader relationship. The author shares their work and the readers interpret it based on their own values, beliefs and preconceptions.
I like that because then there's potential for a lot of different opinions and readings on the same text.
I'm sorry but I have nothing to add here. I've run out of argument, like Bugsie, but this has been fun. XD
I would like to ask one thing though, what do you see as opening up to someone's truth?