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Question about new Forum Dos and Don'ts - Petitions

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TriplisTriplis Posts: 2,891 Member
As this stuff seems to be copy/pasted from EA guidelines, I'm guessing it's just a general EA standard policy:
Petition. Petitions do not contribute to a useful and productive forum.
This is under the "don'ts."

Is this now an official stance on petitions for the Sims Forums or just inadvertently included from standardizing things? I've never really used petitions myself, but I've seen them a lot and I could see a number of people getting a wrist slap for making a petition because they're so accustomed to them being allowed.

So I wanted to get clarification on whether this is truly a stance you're changing on and if so, perhaps an explanation as to why; whether it's just to standardize or if there is some other reason that might satisfy those that are accustomed to making and using petitions.

I'll admit I don't have the prior rules memorized, so it's possible petitions were always there in the don'ts of the rules somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I don't remember seeing them as a part of it before?
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Comments

  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 31,028 Member
    edited July 2017
    It's in the list of new rules that seemingly were written here since yesterday. It's odd they think that when SimsVIP uses polls and we have used petitions to get lots of things over the years. One in particular...the OFB type stove/run a restaurant store object thingy in TS3 which was noted by x-SimGuruRyan back then..was all due to a petition (direct result) on TS3. Odd indeed they've now changed their mind about if a petition can benefit them and us. ETA: And no were not in rules that I can remember, we even had the ability to create one on the website at TS3 site. :/
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 2,891 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    It's in the list of new rules that seemingly were written here since yesterday. It's odd they think that when SimsVIP uses polls and we have used petitions to get lots of things over the years. One in particular...the OFB type stove/run a restaurant store object thingy in TS3 which was noted by x-SimGuruRyan back then..was all due to a petition (direct result) on TS3. Odd indeed they've now changed their mind about if a petition can benefit them and us. ETA: And no were not in rules that I can remember, we even had the ability to create one on the website at TS3 site. :/
    Thanks for chiming in!

    I did some re-reading of Drake's posts about the forum changes and there is this line:
    Check out the official EA Forum Rules & Guidelines below and the EA User Agreement.
    So I'm pretty confident what they did is just copy/paste existing "official" EA forum rules.

    But I don't know if that's a good idea in the case of things like petitions and how they've been allowed in the past.
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 31,028 Member
    Triplis wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    It's in the list of new rules that seemingly were written here since yesterday. It's odd they think that when SimsVIP uses polls and we have used petitions to get lots of things over the years. One in particular...the OFB type stove/run a restaurant store object thingy in TS3 which was noted by x-SimGuruRyan back then..was all due to a petition (direct result) on TS3. Odd indeed they've now changed their mind about if a petition can benefit them and us. ETA: And no were not in rules that I can remember, we even had the ability to create one on the website at TS3 site. :/
    Thanks for chiming in!

    I did some re-reading of Drake's posts about the forum changes and there is this line:
    Check out the official EA Forum Rules & Guidelines below and the EA User Agreement.
    So I'm pretty confident what they did is just copy/paste existing "official" EA forum rules.

    But I don't know if that's a good idea in the case of things like petitions and how they've been allowed in the past.

    I hope she will explain to some of us why this is now seen as an uneccessary, unproductive activity...because the object we wanted in TS3 (the ability to run our own restaurants) was a direct result of a petition which Ryan said had over 1,000 signatures, and they made a big deal about it and gave credit to @Cinderellimouse for creating that petition then. Sigh, .....I don't understand why this is no longer acceptable/here on TS4.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • BabySquareBabySquare Posts: 7,750 Member
    I posted in the ideas corner 3 separate ideas which turned into petitions.
    1 was about pets and had nearly 100 signatures
    1 was about weather/seasons and had about 140 signatures
    and 1 was about a music themed pack and had about 20 signatures.
    All of them abide by the forum rules.

    I updated 1 of them yesterday as it had new posts, the other 2 hadn't been updated since 5th July and 21st July and I was about to give them a bump just now when I discovered that all 3 have completely disappeared.

    I put a lot of work into cataloging what had signed my petitions, does anyone know what's happened to them?
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  • EA_MageEA_Mage Posts: 1,354 EA Staff (retired)
    edited July 2017
    Hello all,

    These are indeed general EA Forum Rules and Guidelines with some Sims specific additions or clarifications.

    When it comes to petitions, I will agree they have in some cases been useful (specifically petitions related to in-game changes), but that is VERY small minority. In most cases, petitions are disruptive and do not contribute much to the forum environment. They generate a lot of feelings, positive and negative, that can cause the members of the forums to become quite hostile towards each other. While this might not happen with every petition created, we would rather avoid the situation in the first place.

    Forum rules can often seem too restrictive and generic, but they are meant to maintain the peace between the forum members and assist said members in choosing the way discussions are held. We want the forums to be safe and peaceful environment where everyone feels welcomed.

    We of course encourage everyone to post their feedback! Well worded, constructive feedback from players will trump any petition.

    As for a wrist slap on breaking the rules - there is an adjustment period all around. First step with any rules is education of said rules.

    Thanks,
    EA_Mage

  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 2,891 Member
    Hey @EA_Mage thanks for the response. Can you give an example of a petition being disruptive and not contributing to the forum environment? I can think of situations where passionate love or hate for a particular idea or feature caused disruption, but it doesn't seem isolated to the creation, or lack of, petitions. It seems to me that without petitions, the feelings in question would just take other forms.

    I also believe I have observed that in some cases, petitions can generate positive feelings and result in an overall more constructive environment, as they can give community members a way to feel a sense of solidarity and of being understood, when it comes to something they are very passionate about. In other words, it gives them something to do with their passion that shows their support for a particular idea or feature.

    Most people, in my experience, don't know enough about game design, or about what they want, to write detailed, constructive feedback, so a petition can be one way for them to express their desires without needing to be skillfully articulate in written word and/or need to spend the time expressing their desires in such a manner.

    I don't think petitions themselves are the only way to get this benefit, but I do think they are one way. An alternative example is the thread: https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/801025/ea-silence-on-family-play-and-family-play-fans/p1

    Which became a friendly haven for people who are very passionate about family play to enjoy each others' companies without disrupting the regular flow of the forums.

    Perhaps if you are set against petitions, it might benefit the forum as an alternative to consider allowing/encouraging people to make a centralized thread that has the general spirit of a petition thread, without the actual signing itself; like the family play thread, a thread where people who are very passionate about a particular kind of play can enjoy each others' company in a kind of isolation from regular discussion. Pre-existing petition threads could be grandfathered in, with them being turned into more of a "hangout" thread for people who are passionate about the feature idea, where argument/debate about it is discouraged or disallowed to ensure a friendly environment of solidarity for people who are passionate about the particular feature/idea/style-of-play.
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  • lisasc360lisasc360 Posts: 13,419 Member
    EA_Mage wrote: »
    Hello all,

    These are indeed general EA Forum Rules and Guidelines with some Sims specific additions or clarifications.

    When it comes to petitions, I will agree they have in some cases been useful (specifically petitions related to in-game changes), but that is VERY small minority. In most cases, petitions are disruptive and do not contribute much to the forum environment. They generate a lot of feelings, positive and negative, that can cause the members of the forums to become quite hostile towards each other. While this might not happen with every petition created, we would rather avoid the situation in the first place.

    Forum rules can often seem too restrictive and generic, but they are meant to maintain the peace between the forum members and assist said members in choosing the way discussions are held. We want the forums to be safe and peaceful environment where everyone feels welcomed.

    We of course encourage everyone to post their feedback! Well worded, constructive feedback from players will trump any petition.

    As for a wrist slap on breaking the rules - there is an adjustment period all around. First step with any rules is education of said rules.

    Thanks,
    EA_Mage

    I was wondering about this myself as I have seen one or 2 forum members making petitions that really had nothing to do with the game itself as they were only trying to stop people from making threads about adding toddlers to the game as they were getting sick and tired of seeing the numerous toddlers threads. One of those members that had made a petition about removing toddler threads had even went into another thread to let the OP and everyone else know that we're not allowed to make petitions since their petition thread about removing toddlers threads was closed and deleted. Of course this all took place pre-toddler years.

    So thank you for clearing this up... :)
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 31,028 Member
    EA_Mage wrote: »
    Hello all,

    These are indeed general EA Forum Rules and Guidelines with some Sims specific additions or clarifications.

    When it comes to petitions, I will agree they have in some cases been useful (specifically petitions related to in-game changes), but that is VERY small minority. In most cases, petitions are disruptive and do not contribute much to the forum environment. They generate a lot of feelings, positive and negative, that can cause the members of the forums to become quite hostile towards each other. While this might not happen with every petition created, we would rather avoid the situation in the first place.

    Forum rules can often seem too restrictive and generic, but they are meant to maintain the peace between the forum members and assist said members in choosing the way discussions are held. We want the forums to be safe and peaceful environment where everyone feels welcomed.

    We of course encourage everyone to post their feedback! Well worded, constructive feedback from players will trump any petition.

    As for a wrist slap on breaking the rules - there is an adjustment period all around. First step with any rules is education of said rules.

    Thanks,
    EA_Mage

    I appreciate you answering however, I'm still at a total loss of how a simple petition thread that says something as innocent as vote for rain, or snow, can be harmful and unfriendly. A simple yes and no usually can suffice. That's just a silly example but I'm sure you get the point. Thanks.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • CupidCupid Posts: 3,620 Member
    edited August 2017
    that seems odd to me. I've never taken part in any sort of petition but I see them as a way of concentrating a group of people with the same idea rather than having them all go and clog the forum with separate threads.

    it's not my mess to clean up though, so whatever :p
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  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 31,028 Member
    edited August 2017
    that seems odd to me. I've never taken part in any sort of petition but I see them as a way of concentrating a group of people with the same idea rather than having them all go and clog the forum with separate threads.

    it's not my mess to clean up though, so whatever :p

    TS3 forums had a button to create your own petition threads and people could vote on stuff. I have no idea why it's different here. Nor did I even know this is an EA rule, funny (as in odd) we never got in trouble in five years on the old site. :o (There was always a petition over there somewhere, even to vote the best looking Sim someone created etc.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • CrueltivityCrueltivity Posts: 161 Member
    We also need a rule to obligatory smile and look at the sky every 3 seconds like the sims in our games while we're on the forum!
  • Nomiko13Nomiko13 Posts: 1,481 Member
    edited August 2017
    Just found this out and am at a loss of words.... I quite frankly don't agree with the rule change.
    EA_Mage wrote: »
    Hello all,

    These are indeed general EA Forum Rules and Guidelines with some Sims specific additions or clarifications.

    When it comes to petitions, I will agree they have in some cases been useful (specifically petitions related to in-game changes), but that is VERY small minority. In most cases, petitions are disruptive and do not contribute much to the forum environment. They generate a lot of feelings, positive and negative, that can cause the members of the forums to become quite hostile towards each other. While this might not happen with every petition created, we would rather avoid the situation in the first place.

    Forum rules can often seem too restrictive and generic, but they are meant to maintain the peace between the forum members and assist said members in choosing the way discussions are held. We want the forums to be safe and peaceful environment where everyone feels welcomed.

    We of course encourage everyone to post their feedback! Well worded, constructive feedback from players will trump any petition.

    As for a wrist slap on breaking the rules - there is an adjustment period all around. First step with any rules is education of said rules.

    Thanks,
    EA_Mage

    Honestly, there are collisions even on non petition threads. For example, people passionately argue for/against the addition of pre-teens/middle ages and from what I've seen... it gets intense. It's inevitable since we're all going to have our opinions and aren't always going to see eye to eye. I don't think restricting a form of suggestion/ideas to TS4 is going to solve the issue of peace in the forums. People already are on edge when it comes to TS4 due to the mistakes/overdue bugs/issues (i.e. toddlers being added 2 years later, bugs, slower releases due to TS4 being made from scratch, etc). Even though I love TS4 and it being my favorite iteration, it has its faults and people are valid in their feelings towards it. I just think that a lot of the members already feel their voices aren't heard enough, so taking away a form of them trying to bring change to a franchise they love will only cause more a stir, thus, fuel the unrest.
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  • SimGuruDrakeSimGuruDrake Posts: 1,648 SimGuru (retired)
    Hey folks!

    We know the transition to a new moderation team and introducing a new set of rules and guidelines is going to take a bit of time to get used to. I wanted to take a moment to hop in this thread to add some clarity to this particular aspect of contention.

    I understand there is some confusion regarding "petitions". We are not asking for "petitions" to no longer be a thing. We welcome and appreciate your feedback as your voice is important to the development of the game.

    Rather than labeling your posts as "petitions" we want to focus on "feedback" as the word "petition" can have a negative connotation to it rather than a constructive one.

    Now this is a question: Would you feel better if we allowed for the inclusion of "polls", specifically within the feedback and ideas sections? This could help you keep track of those interested in what you're proposing while also giving those a voice who aren't.
    Global Community Manager for Maxis / The Sims
  • SimsILikeSimsSimsILikeSims Posts: 1,357 Member
    edited August 2017
    Hey folks!

    We know the transition to a new moderation team and introducing a new set of rules and guidelines is going to take a bit of time to get used to. I wanted to take a moment to hop in this thread to add some clarity to this particular aspect of contention.

    I understand there is some confusion regarding "petitions". We are not asking for "petitions" to no longer be a thing. We welcome and appreciate your feedback as your voice is important to the development of the game.

    Rather than labeling your posts as "petitions" we want to focus on "feedback" as the word "petition" can have a negative connotation to it rather than a constructive one.

    Now this is a question: Would you feel better if we allowed for the inclusion of "polls", specifically within the feedback and ideas sections? This could help you keep track of those interested in what you're proposing while also giving those a voice who aren't.

    I love the idea of polls. This way, we wouldn't have people interrupting the petition by complaining about someone else's vote. Hopefully.
    However, feedback can easily turn into a petition of sorts, for example, an idea thread that becomes a "Who's interested in X feature?" thread. Just keep in mind that petitions will never completely go away, they will just be forced off site to websites that specialize in petitions, where no questions about the petition as it is stated can be voiced. Alternatively, they may show up as social media groups.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 31,028 Member
    edited August 2017
    @SimGuruDrake, I appreciate you clarifying what you guys mean. Polls are a great idea, because here on the official forums some feel forum users don't really get as much attention as say Face Book, Twitter users and or Youtube users. It's not to say you guys have anything to do with reinforcing that perception but taking away any sort of petition or polling among forum users actually would reinforce that mind set in my opinion. So, polls within a thread with simple yes/no vote tally without explaination helps 'connect' users to the community not divide them. I never hold someone's vote against them, I hope we are mature enough here, to know a game is a matter of taste, and subjection and never should any of it ever be taken so seriously as to build contention and real life conflicts over a game. A simple poll system would be welcome and help forum users feel they are part of the simming family since focus of EA/Maxis in the last few years is more (perception) on those who have Youtube channels and fansites. Giving forum users a poll system to use can help bridge that gap.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 2,891 Member
    edited August 2017
    Hey folks!

    We know the transition to a new moderation team and introducing a new set of rules and guidelines is going to take a bit of time to get used to. I wanted to take a moment to hop in this thread to add some clarity to this particular aspect of contention.

    I understand there is some confusion regarding "petitions". We are not asking for "petitions" to no longer be a thing. We welcome and appreciate your feedback as your voice is important to the development of the game.

    Rather than labeling your posts as "petitions" we want to focus on "feedback" as the word "petition" can have a negative connotation to it rather than a constructive one.

    Now this is a question: Would you feel better if we allowed for the inclusion of "polls", specifically within the feedback and ideas sections? This could help you keep track of those interested in what you're proposing while also giving those a voice who aren't.
    Thanks for clarifying. Though I'll admit I'm a bit confused as to the terminology. To me, it sounds like what you're saying is that if I were to make a thread and call it a petition, that would technically be against the rules. But if I make a thread and call it something else, while hinting at asking for signatures, that would be fine.

    That said, polls would probably be a constructive alternative and clear up the above point of confusion for me if they are an option.
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  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 31,028 Member
    Rflong7 wrote: »
    I like Polls... :mrgreen:

    We should have a poll about the question if we should have polls. :D
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 4,762 Member
    As long as the polls don't reject the "or" entirely in an either/or poll I wouldn't mind them. Sometimes I like both or some but in descending order as in SimGuru's choices.
  • MadameLeeMadameLee Posts: 31,285 Member
    edited August 2017
    @SimGuruDrake you still hasn't address the issue if it's allowed to talk about "Special Needs" in the Ideas section (ie having "Special Needs" in the game)-since I been waiting for over 2 years for that to be address since some people believe we can't talk about it.

    Edit: I think this should be addressed even more now-since there will be some more um "help" to moderate the forums.

    @EA_Mage
    Post edited by MadameLee on
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  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,891 Member
    I agree that this is an odd one. What is even more upsetting is that a lot of the big ones, like the ones asking for firefighters for example got outright deleted. It would have been better if BEFORE the rule came into place we would have been talked to and given an option to transition the topic into a poll topic or a feedback topic.
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  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 2,891 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    I agree that this is an odd one. What is even more upsetting is that a lot of the big ones, like the ones asking for firefighters for example got outright deleted. It would have been better if BEFORE the rule came into place we would have been talked to and given an option to transition the topic into a poll topic or a feedback topic.
    This is the 2nd person I've seen mentioning a petition thread getting deleted.

    Could you check/confirm what's happening with this? @SimGuruDrake @EA_Mage I'm finding it a little hard to believe you'd outright delete such threads without warning, so I want make sure we're clear on what's going down with that. I hope this doesn't fall under "discussing moderation actions," cause frankly, I'm not even sure if this is an actual moderation action or not, or if there's something else going on.
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  • NetzspannungNetzspannung Posts: 1,457 Member
    Petitions always seemed rather odd to me in this context. Which is why I never "signed" one, even if the idea was great. Petitions have a political undertone and we are customers with ideas for development of a product. Why would a petition thread with a bunch of people typing "signed" be more powerful or significant than a thread in the ideas section, where simmers give feedback either in comment form or hitting the like/awesome buttons? Petitions are apparently not the most preferred/practical way of communicating wishes to EA - if the people you are trying to reach with the petition "tool" do not seem particularly impressed with that form of feedback, why argue? Otherwise petitions might as well just be a hobby of yours and not means to an end.
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  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 2,891 Member
    Petitions always seemed rather odd to me in this context. Which is why I never "signed" one, even if the idea was great. Petitions have a political undertone and we are customers with ideas for development of a product. Why would a petition thread with a bunch of people typing "signed" be more powerful or significant than a thread in the ideas section, where simmers give feedback either in comment form or hitting the like/awesome buttons? Petitions are apparently not the most preferred/practical way of communicating wishes to EA - if the people you are trying to reach with the petition "tool" do not seem particularly impressed with that form of feedback, why argue? Otherwise petitions might as well just be a hobby of yours and not means to an end.
    Well I could be wrong, but I think the spirit of petitions for this game are often more about shared experience than a real belief that the petition is going to guarantee a result. That is the main part that concerns me in the transition, is in the related passion being let out in more argumentative/angry forms. So that's where maybe polls would take its place without much issue.

    There is something undeniably unique about this community compared to a lot of other game communities. And it's possible that the way rules are constructed and enforced on the forums is one facet of that. So I'll admit I have a bit of wariness about anything that seeks uniformity/standardization, as it would be sad to me if this community lost its unique charm over time. Call me paranoid, but my mind tends to think in terms of where things are headed in the distant future when on a particular path/trajectory. My concerns in this case aren't so much "today," but more a year from now or three years from now.
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  • FloppyFishFloppyFish Posts: 3,881 Member
    I would love polls!
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