Why isn't the butler in the City Living EP? Because the SP team made him/her, lol. The idea that the butler was 'taken out of' or 'held hostage' from the EP is silly, when he/she wasn't in there to begin with. That's like saying the buffet table from Luxury Party was held out of GTW just because it was released a month or two later.
And I'm still scratching my head how a butler fits better in an expansion pack based around broken down, rat infested apartments with barely enough room for even a medium sized family, let alone another full-time-live-in NPC where non of the decor says rich and famous and well off Sims compared to this SP which clearly shows interiors for mansions and such that an NPC butler would fit the best in.
If anything, maybe you should start complaining they held the butler hostage from Luxury Party.
Why isn't the butler in the City Living EP? Because the SP team made him/her, lol. The idea that the butler was 'taken out of' or 'held hostage' from the EP is silly, when he/she wasn't in there to begin with. That's like saying the buffet table from Luxury Party was held out of GTW just because it was released a month or two later.
And I'm still scratching my head how a butler fits better in an expansion pack based around broken down, rat infested apartments with barely enough room for even a medium sized family, let alone another full-time-live-in NPC where non of the decor says rich and famous and well off Sims compared to this SP which clearly shows interiors for mansions and such that an NPC butler would fit the best in.
If anything, maybe you should start complaining they held the butler hostage from Luxury Party.
I wish I had posted this! I am getting so tired of people who haven't even bought or played the game recently moaning about the same things over and over and over and over ad infinitum.
Why isn't the butler in the City Living EP? Because the SP team made him/her, lol. The idea that the butler was 'taken out of' or 'held hostage' from the EP is silly, when he/she wasn't in there to begin with. That's like saying the buffet table from Luxury Party was held out of GTW just because it was released a month or two later.
And I'm still scratching my head how a butler fits better in an expansion pack based around broken down, rat infested apartments with barely enough room for even a medium sized family, let alone another full-time-live-in NPC where non of the decor says rich and famous and well off Sims compared to this SP which clearly shows interiors for mansions and such that an NPC butler would fit the best in.
If anything, maybe you should start complaining they held the butler hostage from Luxury Party.
I had to chuckle at your comment about the butler being held hostage by the SP
Maybe, if the world in CL is like you described then it is most likely the butler stayed out of the EP himself so he could be introduced to somewhere where there is a bit more class
I for one don't think we should pay 10 dollars for just a butler. Should have saved it for a GP or a EP. I don't think it's fair. Yes I do get that the other butler's from the other sims games came from EP. GOOD JOB EA you messes with a tradition again! (I AM NOT A HATER OF THE SIMS 4)
Sims Games I like to play - Sims 2 / Sims Medieval / Sims 2 Pets ( Wii ) / MySims / MySims Kingdom ( Wii )
EA have said themselves, and it doesn't take a genius to see it either. Game sales have changed since The Sims 1 - drastically. Regular DLC releases sell better than two EPs a year and a couple of stuff packs.
I'd rather have these stuff packs than the godawful overpriced Sims 3 Store.
But in the long run you will end up spending more for less content. How can you not see this? The store was mainly static objects and additional content that did not really enhance gameplay.
With The Sims 3, one could just purchase the EPs and have ample gameplay as they contained the premium gameplay content. You missed out on nothing by not purchasing from the store. It wasn't until the final years of The Sims 3 that they started to add more premium items into the store, but even then, the majority of it was not staple content.
What they are doing now is splitting premium content that previously was spread over 10 or so EPs into Stuff packs that will more than likely top 20 in number. 3 stuff packs cost around the price of an EP, yet provide nowhere near the same amount of content or gameplay.
From a business perspective it is a fantastic idea, but as a consumer, I am not impressed as I can see quite clearly what they are doing.
The butler came with Late Night in The Sims 3. In The Sims 4 they left this NPC out of City Living to sell him for $9.99.
No thank you. I'd rather gameplay was clumped together in the EPs and instead of it being spread out as thin as possible.
I'm going to rework my shop, The Elephant Trunk, into a vintage/glamour shop with furniture and décor and a few special clothing items.
Ooh love the sound of this, please upload it to the gallery once you're done!!
There is a group of unhappy simmers that will say every pack is a party pack. When we get pets, they'll say it's for pet parties. Occults, for supernatural parties. Generations, for family parties. I'd like to tell them how silly they sound, but why spoil the only fun they have.
And yes, I will be happy to download it. There is a version already, but it's more like a junktique shop.
When I first saw the teaser I wasn't very excited for this SP, but I think it looks fantastic now. A lot of the new hair and clothing looks like they would work in modern-day (maybe not some of the men's and children's) and the furniture looks great. I love the vanity table and to some it's a little thing, but I love that little detail of Sims putting on makeup. The globe bar is very nice, too. I've never really used butlers in The Sims, but options are always nice.
I do want more substantial additions, so I can understand why some feel unhappy about all these SPs. But for me, I really enjoy playing the game and just having something new to play with gives me a lot of fun. Honestly, I often get more enjoyment and usage out of the SPs than the bigger packs.
Done with stuff packs. As I said, it's just overpriced reskins that hold one interesting item hostage to increase EA's profit margins. This time it seems the butler is the new hostage. Really don't care.
People really need to stop buying into these stuff packs if they actually want this franchise to improve.
As usual you state your opinions as facts. Do you even know what a reskin is? Reskins use the same model, not completely different ones. For example the koala nightlight is a Reskin of a base game one. All a Reskin is is using the same model and re skinning it.
But if you're happier paying 20 dollars for the same amount of cas and buy stuff but no gameplay like we have since Sims 2 then go ahead.
Two things:
1) Please tell me where on earth I "stated my opinion like fact."
2) Your nitpicking of the definition of "reskin" does nothing to change anything I've said. It's still just the exact same items with a different coat of paint, plus one super unique item that they hold hostage to try and increase sales and profit margins. This time it's not an item, but a service NPC, and honestly a weak one at that. He can garden AND clean!? Ok, let me just hire a gardener and a maid. Done deal.
Ever since I've joined I've stated these Stuff packs are the #1 reason for the decline of franchise quality. I still stand by that and encourage everyone to boycott these things if they actually wanna see more meaningful content.
1. The stuff packs are really cheap. 2. 5 this year is hardly a lot considering the TS3 store.
3. There are 3 completely new gameplay items including the butler, and most SPs come with 2.
4. The way you say it it's like you'd be satisfied with exactly 1 item of each furniture type trough the whole game, since every other would be a reskin.
Did you ever *buy* from the Sims store...? I know I didn't.
Fast forward to today and suddenly they've renamed the Sims Store to "Stuff Packs" and lo and behold, nobody questions or doubts the quality of them simply because the name has changed. How are any of these higher quality than the Sims 3 store...?
You know what is different though? The frequency with which the content sells, because EA figured out if you name something an "OFFICIAL Stuff Pack" instead of making it chair #34 on the store page, people are more eager to give EA money for it.
Done with stuff packs. As I said, it's just overpriced reskins that hold one interesting item hostage to increase EA's profit margins. This time it seems the butler is the new hostage. Really don't care.
People really need to stop buying into these stuff packs if they actually want this franchise to improve.
As usual you state your opinions as facts. Do you even know what a reskin is? Reskins use the same model, not completely different ones. For example the koala nightlight is a Reskin of a base game one. All a Reskin is is using the same model and re skinning it.
But if you're happier paying 20 dollars for the same amount of cas and buy stuff but no gameplay like we have since Sims 2 then go ahead.
Two things:
1) Please tell me where on earth I "stated my opinion like fact."
2) Your nitpicking of the definition of "reskin" does nothing to change anything I've said. It's still just the exact same items with a different coat of paint, plus one super unique item that they hold hostage to try and increase sales and profit margins. This time it's not an item, but a service NPC, and honestly a weak one at that. He can garden AND clean!? Ok, let me just hire a gardener and a maid. Done deal.
Ever since I've joined I've stated these Stuff packs are the #1 reason for the decline of franchise quality. I still stand by that and encourage everyone to boycott these things if they actually wanna see more meaningful content.
You've stated that if people want Sims 4 to improve we need to stop buying stuff packs.
They're not holding content hostage.. It's a game with dlc. How is offering it in a 10 dollar pack any different than a 40 dollar one. It is a PRODUCT. They are SELLING it and trying to add appealing content so that you want to buy it.
Would you rather the price Go back up to 20 dollars and get rid of gameplay again?
Glad you asked.
Imagine that over the course of Sims 3, we were given 100 meaningful gameplay objects. 0 of those objects were in Stuff packs, meaning all 100 were divided between the 11 expansions we got. This means each expansion got like ~9 meaningful objects (ridiculously small amount, yes, but this is just an example). This means that you could simply skip Stuff Packs and you missed nothing important, just more stuff.
Now for sake of argument, imagine Sims 4 is complete and we have ~6 expansions but we also have 20 stuff packs (which at this rate, Sims 4 will likely realistically get). Again, there are 100 meaningful objects, except this time they're split between every single pack.
Know what happens now? That's right, you buy every single pack. You buy without skipping because you don't want to miss out on any meaningful gameplay content. Suddenly, it doesn't matter that they're $10 each, because all of them total up to a whopping $200. Even more annoying, because you now have 100 meaningful objects divided between 26 packs, this means that when you pay $40 for an expansion, you are no longer getting 9 gameplay objects, but 4. Sure, it's adjusted some because Expansions are larger, but the adjustments mostly just make Stuff Packs equal 2 or 3 items whilst expansions get 5-6. The price you were once willing to pay because "expansion" once meant sizeable content...? Suddenly it's not as sizeable as it once was, though the price tag has not changed. This means that if you want to get the exact same amount of gameplay content as one Sims 3 pack could offer, you must buy more packs.
Would you rather the price Go back up to 20 dollars and get rid of gameplay again?
This may be a disingenuous comparison depending on the scale of Sims 4 stuff packs vs. Sims 3 ones (I've no idea of the size, I didn't buy the Sims 3 ones), but honestly...? Yes.
That's the point: if a pack focuses solely on *stuff*, then I probably won't be buying it. EA noticed people weren't buying Stuff packs, that's why we have the price adjustment, that's why they suddenly have one meaningful object each. It's not about that Sims 3's counterparts would total $60 together whilst Sims 4's total $50, it's about the fact that many people skipped the stuff pack in Sims 3, so they'd just pay $40 for the expansion alone. Sims 4? People want both, so they purchase both the expansions *and* the Stuff packs.
This also seems like a great time to mention that if you look at how much content was on offer at the two-year mark of Sims 3 and Sims 4's history...? Sims 3's content costed $240 total, whilst Sims 4's costed $200. (and if you fast forward just a couple months, you can include City Living AND this pack whilst Sims 3 gained one stuff pack at 2 years, 3 months, thus Sims 4 actually wins by gaining speed and just $10 behind) Despite having half the expansions, Sims 4 was exactly one expansion's worth of cost behind Sims 3. How does that happen...? I'll tell you how: it happens when you have 8 stuff packs on offer. If I played Sims 3 and skipped EVERY stuff pack because it lacked content, I paid $180 dollars at the end of it's 2 year anniversary. If I played Sims 4...? Everything has some content, I must buy all for the "full experience," and would you look at that, they've gained a net profit despite the price drop.
As I said, it's holding content hostage. It's a way to increase the sales of stuff packs, because if they were to remove the Butler from this pack, remove the Dishwasher from Cool Kitchen stuff or remove the Water Slide from Backyard Stuff...? They'd see a dip in sales as everyone skipped that pack.
Overall, had stuff packs received a price adjustment to accomidate their lower sales? Cool, that's basic economics. $10 stuff packs with no gameplay content sounds fair. Instead, it's to the detriment of expansion packs. Why isn't a Butler in City Living...? Because they needed him to push the sales of this pack. That's not a simple price adjustment, that's actively letting expansions lose quality so that they can make $50 instead of $40 this holiday season.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars? The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
One of Lgr complaints was that stuff packs in Sims etc added useless objects you can't Interact with like a lemonade pitcher. But backyard stuff adds 4 gameplay objects PLuS 60 cas and build stuff for 10 dollars and it's a bad thing? That would have cost you like 40 in Sims etc.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Well then, wasn't the store which released sets every month diverting resources away from EPs then? And the SPs then should've done that too, considering that they were being worked on as well. And you're completely forgetting the fact that it's not the entire team splitting their attention beween 8 different projects at once. It is literally a separate team, completely set apart from the EP team, with it's own personal resources and time, which wouldn't take away from the EP. The projects are worked on concurrently, not one at a time, do it as you go type stuff.
Just some random Simmer you probably don't even follow on the gallery! Gallery name's the same as my username! Did I just rhyme there?
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Butler came with Late Night. Where is the butler in City Living? Oh, it's in the $9.99 stuff pack released a month later ...
It's absurd that some of you cannot see what is right in front of you. EPs are being stripped of content to be sold piecemeal in stuff packs.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Butler came with Late Night. Where is the butler in City Living? Oh, it's in the $9.99 stuff pack released a month later ...
It's absurd that some of you cannot see what is right in front of you. EPs are being stripped of content to be sold piecemeal in stuff packs.
You're assuming that each iteration of Sims 4 copies what previous iterations did. Late Night =/= Apartment Living. Why should City Living = Late Night? It's a different interpretation of the "city" theme: graffiti, basketball, karaoke, street life in general, and cultural variety vs. vampires, butlers, celebrities, bands, and nightclubs. I'm not sure how you'd start with a vision of the city as full of cultural variety and varying neighbourhood life and end up with butlers. What's right in front of you is that Sims 4 is not a Sims 3 clone.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second - unless you are talking more in general versus an EP..
Resources aren't being diverted to stuff packs, that money is going straight to marketing. Notice how every advertised feature of CL got its own trailer? Even the talking toilet got its own ad. Those aren't free. The smaller packs get less marketing and get more stuff. If we are wanting better quality EP's ask for more efficient marketing. I vaguely remember simgurulinday saying early on that marketing is much more involved with the game, which would make sense seeing all of the fluffy ads they release.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Butler came with Late Night. Where is the butler in City Living? Oh, it's in the $9.99 stuff pack released a month later ...
It's absurd that some of you cannot see what is right in front of you. EPs are being stripped of content to be sold piecemeal in stuff packs.
You're assuming that each iteration of Sims 4 copies what previous iterations did. Late Night =/= Apartment Living. Why should City Living = Late Night? It's a different interpretation of the "city" theme: graffiti, basketball, karaoke, street life in general, and cultural variety vs. vampires, butlers, celebrities, bands, and nightclubs. I'm not sure how you'd start with a vision of the city as full of cultural variety and varying neighbourhood life and end up with butlers. What's right in front of you is that Sims 4 is not a Sims 3 clone.
I agree with @luthienrising. The games are not meant to be clones. That said, they are sequels (or prequels in TS3's case) and--please feel free to correct me if my assumption is way off--they are meant to take the basic concept of the game and IMPROVE upon the past iterations. Whether we feel that improvement was made or no is the real point of contention here, but the games are not clones.
Point of contention:
TS1 was life simulation Sims-style basic, TS2 took pretty much all of the core aspects of TS1 and then became a game about life stages, and TS3 took lifestanges and became a game about story progression, rich open worlds, and customisation. TS4 dropped the part of the lifestages, dropped the open world, and became a game about "emotions" except that... the Sims have always been about emotions since TS2. Sims grew anxious, angry, depressed, happy, excited, proud, shocked, grossed out, etc. according to the situation around them and the emotions persisted thanks to their memory system. TS4's emotion system (or rather object-driven non-persistent emotion system) and whether or not TS4 sims are actually emotional is debatable as when the base game was released the sims were prozac personality clones (or sociopaths... what wife steps over her dying husband to make dinner?!) Fast forward 2 years and has the AI improved enough to say that TS4 has improved the series? I reckon we'll be debating this until TS5 (please hurry TS5).
Now all of this being said, why are folks debating a stuff pack so much??? (unless there is no newspaper... then fight on my friends... grrr )
A stuff pack is just a more palatable delivery method of the TS4 store, yes? I would think the butler would be in a game pack rather than an SP because SPs should be "stuff" and not sims, but getting a butler (which hopefully works) for $10 instead of $20 seems like a good deal to me.
Why isn't the butler in the City Living EP? Because the SP team made him/her, lol. The idea that the butler was 'taken out of' or 'held hostage' from the EP is silly, when he/she wasn't in there to begin with. That's like saying the buffet table from Luxury Party was held out of GTW just because it was released a month or two later.
And I'm still scratching my head how a butler fits better in an expansion pack based around broken down, rat infested apartments with barely enough room for even a medium sized family, let alone another full-time-live-in NPC where non of the decor says rich and famous and well off Sims compared to this SP which clearly shows interiors for mansions and such that an NPC butler would fit the best in.
If anything, maybe you should start complaining they held the butler hostage from Luxury Party.
Lol.
I associate a butler more with something like Superstar than I do with a city pack. In Late Night it made sense because you had the celebrity content with the film studio and the bands. There was the whole fame system, and that superstar that lived in the house overlooking the water. They went for a different angle with this pack and I'm happy about that. I'd prefer them to do a proper Superstar expansion this time, instead of half-doing it in LN and then redoing the theme with Showtime. Anyway, I'm veering dangerously off-topic now, but I'm ok with butlers not being in City Living.
However, having said that I'm happy the Glamour Life stuff complements the Uptown aspect of CL and I'll definitely be moving my Old Hollywood Sims into the luxury apartments at some point. I hope when they DO make TS1 Superstar style careers (please do devs!) that the Sims at the top levels make an absolute fortune because the rents on those apartments (especially with a butler) are going to be extortionate!
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Butler came with Late Night. Where is the butler in City Living? Oh, it's in the $9.99 stuff pack released a month later ...
It's absurd that some of you cannot see what is right in front of you. EPs are being stripped of content to be sold piecemeal in stuff packs.
You know what's absurd? Someone who tries to force their point of view on to others while making a concerted effort to somehow prove how those of us who do enjoy these SP's are wrong for it.
You seem to feel very strongly about this, and that's ok. You have every right to feel how you do, but what you don't have a right to do is to force your opinion as fact.
Many of us enjoy these Sp's. You will have to learn to get over it.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars?
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
Where are you getting this absurd information? They don't divert EP it's extra content you can choose to buy it or not but SP are awesome they add more to the game and are focused on one theme.
Butler came with Late Night. Where is the butler in City Living? Oh, it's in the $9.99 stuff pack released a month later ...
It's absurd that some of you cannot see what is right in front of you. EPs are being stripped of content to be sold piecemeal in stuff packs.
You know what's absurd? Someone who tries to force their point of view on to others while making a concerted effort to somehow prove how those of us who do enjoy these SP's are wrong for it.
You seem to feel very strongly about this, and that's ok. You have every right to feel how you do, but what you don't have a right to do is to force your opinion as fact.
Many of us enjoy these Sp's. You will have to learn to get over it.
Wow people. I never shamed anyone in my post for wanting this pack. I never said that it was a party ripoff (I don't even think it's a party pack) or any of those other things. I just don't like vintage clothes.
I just said that I don't see a need for it in my personal game. If you like it, great! I hope you enjoy it!
But my experience should never be used as a weapon to shame me for not liking this stuff pack, that's just wrong.
Comments
I agree.
And I'm still scratching my head how a butler fits better in an expansion pack based around broken down, rat infested apartments with barely enough room for even a medium sized family, let alone another full-time-live-in NPC where non of the decor says rich and famous and well off Sims compared to this SP which clearly shows interiors for mansions and such that an NPC butler would fit the best in.
If anything, maybe you should start complaining they held the butler hostage from Luxury Party.
I wish I had posted this! I am getting so tired of people who haven't even bought or played the game recently moaning about the same things over and over and over and over ad infinitum.
I had to chuckle at your comment about the butler being held hostage by the SP
Maybe, if the world in CL is like you described then it is most likely the butler stayed out of the EP himself so he could be introduced to somewhere where there is a bit more class
But in the long run you will end up spending more for less content. How can you not see this? The store was mainly static objects and additional content that did not really enhance gameplay.
With The Sims 3, one could just purchase the EPs and have ample gameplay as they contained the premium gameplay content. You missed out on nothing by not purchasing from the store. It wasn't until the final years of The Sims 3 that they started to add more premium items into the store, but even then, the majority of it was not staple content.
What they are doing now is splitting premium content that previously was spread over 10 or so EPs into Stuff packs that will more than likely top 20 in number. 3 stuff packs cost around the price of an EP, yet provide nowhere near the same amount of content or gameplay.
From a business perspective it is a fantastic idea, but as a consumer, I am not impressed as I can see quite clearly what they are doing.
The butler came with Late Night in The Sims 3. In The Sims 4 they left this NPC out of City Living to sell him for $9.99.
No thank you. I'd rather gameplay was clumped together in the EPs and instead of it being spread out as thin as possible.
There is a group of unhappy simmers that will say every pack is a party pack. When we get pets, they'll say it's for pet parties. Occults, for supernatural parties. Generations, for family parties. I'd like to tell them how silly they sound, but why spoil the only fun they have.
And yes, I will be happy to download it. There is a version already, but it's more like a junktique shop.
I do want more substantial additions, so I can understand why some feel unhappy about all these SPs. But for me, I really enjoy playing the game and just having something new to play with gives me a lot of fun. Honestly, I often get more enjoyment and usage out of the SPs than the bigger packs.
This is how I know you don't even play Sims 4 as Cool Kitchen didn't come with a dishwasher (well it did but dishwashers were patched in)
It came with an ice-cream maker. How Is that any different than the store selling the ice-cream maker for 5 dollars? The ice-cream maker in Sims 3 had about 5 flavors. Sims 4 has about 20 and some with gameplay changes. Every flavor could be made into a cup OR cone. Each flavor could also have 1 of 7 garnishes AND 1 of 7 toppings like syrup peppermint etc.
You just admitted you don't know how much stuff came in stuff packs. I've done comparison, they come with the same amount of items generally PLUS gAmeplay for HALF the price.
Your excuse is terrible that they noticed stuff packs weren't selling so they decided to hold content hostage. People didn't buy stuff packs because they were rip offs with no gAmeplay and CC could easily replace them.
So they IMPROVED them so they would sell. You act like improving a product nobody is buying is horrible. They're a business.
One of Lgr complaints was that stuff packs in Sims etc added useless objects you can't Interact with like a lemonade pitcher. But backyard stuff adds 4 gameplay objects PLuS 60 cas and build stuff for 10 dollars and it's a bad thing? That would have cost you like 40 in Sims etc.
It doesn't matter what Sims 4 does, you'll criticize it either way. They could release free toddlers that have more content than Sims 2 and 3 combined and you'd still critique it.
Or it's evidence I wasn't actively playing at the time of Cool Kitchen stuff's release, thus I misremembered. Speaking honestly, I didn't even buy Sims 4. A friend bought it for me while insisting I'd like it once I tried it. Feel guilty because I feel like their money was wasted.
Moreover, I love how this community clings to it's logical fallacies and repeatedly tries to insist all critics do not play the game, which even if that were true, would not negate any criticism voiced.
Speaking of logical fallacies:
Perhaps you will recall that leading up to CL release, people compared it to Late Night and repeatedly tried to state Late Night was not a good expansion, despite how well received it was. Thing is I'd agree because Late Night lacked content, it was Bridgeport people loved.....but this does not change or negate criticism of CL. Highlighting flaws of past iterations does nothing to address problems we have today. This is like if tomorrow Obama were criticized for making a bad decision and his response was "yeah guys but remember back when we had a monarchy? That was awful, so you should be grateful for me and my terrible decisions." The criticism stands and remains 100% valid.
Exact same concept with the Sims 3 store. Sims 3 store was terrible. Everyone agrees. Heck, I challenge you to find one user that enjoyed it and purchased everything it offered with actual money.
...But the Sims 3 store being terrible and overpriced does not mean Cool Kitchen stuff is not terrible and overpriced. Both are entirely capable of being terrible and overpriced. If you want to have a competition of which is worse, I really don't care, because winning that competition and being the less-terrible one doesn't automatically make it good.
This is my response: I don't care. Heck, I had no idea Sims 3 had an ice cream maker at all. You could give me 400 flavors and it wouldn't matter unless those flavors have meaningful gameplay tied to them. They don't. (and no, the flavors with minor effects are gimmicky at best, not full-on features)
I do not play this game to have the most ice cream flavors, I do not play this game to have a wide variety of cultural cuisine. I don't know who the Foodie is on the Sims staff, but quite frankly I find their obsession with food incredibly dull for the game. I want gameplay, not "oh look today my Sim can eat tacos and tomorrow they can eat SUSHI! SO EXCITING!!!" No, eating strawberry icecream with peppermint syrup on it isn't thrilling gameplay either.
So a terrible concept most people hated became slightly less terrible, but it's still an issue. As I said: Sims 3's counterpart being bad or worse =/= this one is suddenly good. I would absolutely prefer more development time go into expansions, but instead the developers divert sooooooo many resources towards these stuff packs that we now get half the expansions we once got. It's still awful, I'm still not satisfied, I'm still not purchasing these.
Except that they IMPROVED stuff packs and let Expansion packs get worse. That is not improvement in the sense that they're working harder or using resources more wisely or addressing customer concerns. That is improvement in the sense that more time and effort is being put into making stuff packs while LESS time and effort is being put into expansions. The only thing that's a strict improvement is the price, but as I said, I'm betting it's still a net gain compared to their old system.
What is stopping them from, for example, releasing the stuff packs as-is, but moving the meaningful objects to expansions...? The fact that their current method rakes in more cash, that's what.
How about you focus on trying to discredit my arguments instead of discrediting me as a person?
Stuff packs divert resources away from Expansions. This is bad. There's really no arguing this. The team only has so much time, money and resources, and every moment of development spent on a stuff pack is a moment not spent on an expansion. When we're to the point that Sims 4 is going to absolutely shatter the record for most stuff packs amongst the franchise, but it's going to struggle to beat even Sims 1 in terms of expansion count...? Yeah, there's a problem. This is not management of time and resources that I'd like to see. I'm sure they profit plenty, but I don't get a whole lot of fun from tiny packs with one new object or so. I get fun from meaningful expansions, which we're both not getting and we're getting fewer expansions.
awesome post is awesome.
Well then, wasn't the store which released sets every month diverting resources away from EPs then? And the SPs then should've done that too, considering that they were being worked on as well. And you're completely forgetting the fact that it's not the entire team splitting their attention beween 8 different projects at once. It is literally a separate team, completely set apart from the EP team, with it's own personal resources and time, which wouldn't take away from the EP. The projects are worked on concurrently, not one at a time, do it as you go type stuff.
Butler came with Late Night. Where is the butler in City Living? Oh, it's in the $9.99 stuff pack released a month later ...
It's absurd that some of you cannot see what is right in front of you. EPs are being stripped of content to be sold piecemeal in stuff packs.
You're assuming that each iteration of Sims 4 copies what previous iterations did. Late Night =/= Apartment Living. Why should City Living = Late Night? It's a different interpretation of the "city" theme: graffiti, basketball, karaoke, street life in general, and cultural variety vs. vampires, butlers, celebrities, bands, and nightclubs. I'm not sure how you'd start with a vision of the city as full of cultural variety and varying neighbourhood life and end up with butlers. What's right in front of you is that Sims 4 is not a Sims 3 clone.
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second - unless you are talking more in general versus an EP..
Resources aren't being diverted to stuff packs, that money is going straight to marketing. Notice how every advertised feature of CL got its own trailer? Even the talking toilet got its own ad. Those aren't free. The smaller packs get less marketing and get more stuff. If we are wanting better quality EP's ask for more efficient marketing. I vaguely remember simgurulinday saying early on that marketing is much more involved with the game, which would make sense seeing all of the fluffy ads they release.
I agree with @luthienrising. The games are not meant to be clones. That said, they are sequels (or prequels in TS3's case) and--please feel free to correct me if my assumption is way off--they are meant to take the basic concept of the game and IMPROVE upon the past iterations. Whether we feel that improvement was made or no is the real point of contention here, but the games are not clones.
Point of contention:
TS1 was life simulation Sims-style basic, TS2 took pretty much all of the core aspects of TS1 and then became a game about life stages, and TS3 took lifestanges and became a game about story progression, rich open worlds, and customisation. TS4 dropped the part of the lifestages, dropped the open world, and became a game about "emotions" except that... the Sims have always been about emotions since TS2. Sims grew anxious, angry, depressed, happy, excited, proud, shocked, grossed out, etc. according to the situation around them and the emotions persisted thanks to their memory system. TS4's emotion system (or rather object-driven non-persistent emotion system) and whether or not TS4 sims are actually emotional is debatable as when the base game was released the sims were prozac personality clones (or sociopaths... what wife steps over her dying husband to make dinner?!) Fast forward 2 years and has the AI improved enough to say that TS4 has improved the series? I reckon we'll be debating this until TS5 (please hurry TS5).
Now all of this being said, why are folks debating a stuff pack so much??? (unless there is no newspaper... then fight on my friends... grrr )
A stuff pack is just a more palatable delivery method of the TS4 store, yes? I would think the butler would be in a game pack rather than an SP because SPs should be "stuff" and not sims, but getting a butler (which hopefully works) for $10 instead of $20 seems like a good deal to me.
Just went to click play on that second screenshot haha.
"Dr Moose's daycare challenge "
The Sims 3 - Wishlist/Top5
Lol.
I associate a butler more with something like Superstar than I do with a city pack. In Late Night it made sense because you had the celebrity content with the film studio and the bands. There was the whole fame system, and that superstar that lived in the house overlooking the water. They went for a different angle with this pack and I'm happy about that. I'd prefer them to do a proper Superstar expansion this time, instead of half-doing it in LN and then redoing the theme with Showtime. Anyway, I'm veering dangerously off-topic now, but I'm ok with butlers not being in City Living.
However, having said that I'm happy the Glamour Life stuff complements the Uptown aspect of CL and I'll definitely be moving my Old Hollywood Sims into the luxury apartments at some point. I hope when they DO make TS1 Superstar style careers (please do devs!) that the Sims at the top levels make an absolute fortune because the rents on those apartments (especially with a butler) are going to be extortionate!
You know what's absurd? Someone who tries to force their point of view on to others while making a concerted effort to somehow prove how those of us who do enjoy these SP's are wrong for it.
You seem to feel very strongly about this, and that's ok. You have every right to feel how you do, but what you don't have a right to do is to force your opinion as fact.
Many of us enjoy these Sp's. You will have to learn to get over it.
Happy simming
I just said that I don't see a need for it in my personal game. If you like it, great! I hope you enjoy it!
But my experience should never be used as a weapon to shame me for not liking this stuff pack, that's just wrong.