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Kids are so Boring

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  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    Do TS4 kids share secrets with each other? Do they play dress up with each other? I don't recall. Do they play hooky from school? I think there is a phone call adult Sims make to kids in TS4 about that. Do they sneak out past curfew? Or get brought home by the police? Teens and kids in the other games. No curfew in TS4, which I like that, however, it was also just weird to send my toddler all over the block and the parent not even go searching for them in City Living. Remember Bella and Mortimer would come get Casandra. So would townie adults or teens of any 'homeless' kid out too late at your Sim's house.

    I know Maxis must think or believe kids don't play tag or other kid games anymore, maybe they don't but maybe the parents in TS4 should demand they get off the pc and phones and get outside and do something together. Like build forts? Play with trash can lids and sticks for swords. Build a tree house, or a club house, it doesn't have to be beautiful if it's built out of cardboard or old boards. I think it would be great if Maxis would take a look at the 1930's Little Rascals shows and get some better ideas.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • BabykittyjadeBabykittyjade Posts: 4,975 Member
    edited March 2022
    LiELF wrote: »
    It's a Sims 4 design flaw, I think, that Sims of any age really lack a variety of autonomous interactions and animations between them and that's what makes the game constantly feel like it needs more. The majority of interactions in the game involve objects and the autonomy is repetitious and samey with all Sims who have a tendency to be drawn to the same objects or have all the same idles. They are consistently drawn away from each other in favor of objects like the computer and when they are drawn to each other it's just the same idle chatting they do day after day and it never seems to change.

    So frustrating.

    This is so accurate. Over the years these are the kinds of things I expected them to work on vs something like story progression. I just personally don't see how story progression added much depth  compared to stuff like this.
    I really long to see more sim on sim interactions, animation variety and sims who I don't have to kick off of my PC.
    It's the little details that are more meaningful than the big flashy stuff. And if you look at why people love ts2 so much it's because of all the little seemingly meaningless details.
    I Don't know if ts4 is just not capable or they don't prioritize it. I just like ts4 so much that I hate to see the potential of it not be utilized.

    This video on reddit showed a lot of what is missing and it's literally nothing fancy or flashy.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/thesims/comments/s9r6uc/this_is_the_most_beautiful_and_nostalgic_thing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
    Zombies, oh please oh please give us zombies!! :'(
  • BabykittyjadeBabykittyjade Posts: 4,975 Member
    edited March 2022
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Do TS4 kids share secrets with each other? Do they play dress up with each other? I don't recall. Do they play hooky from school? I think there is a phone call adult Sims make to kids in TS4 about that. Do they sneak out past curfew? Or get brought home by the police? Teens and kids in the other games. No curfew in TS4, which I like that, however, it was also just weird to send my toddler all over the block and the parent not even go searching for them in City Living. Remember Bella and Mortimer would come get Casandra. So would townie adults or teens of any 'homeless' kid out too late at your Sim's house.

    I know Maxis must think or believe kids don't play tag or other kid games anymore, maybe they don't but maybe the parents in TS4 should demand they get off the pc and phones and get outside and do something together. Like build forts? Play with trash can lids and sticks for swords. Build a tree house, or a club house, it doesn't have to be beautiful if it's built out of cardboard or old boards. I think it would be great if Maxis would take a look at the 1930's Little Rascals shows and get some better ideas.

    I wondered myself if this was part of the problem also. Because the Sims is going for realism I feel like the ts4 kids do reflect modern kids.
    My little nieces and nephews literally just want to stay glued to an electronic device and they don't have the creativity and interactions we use to have when I was that age. Me and my mom literally have to pull the kids out of the house to run around and play human to human interactive games with us like water balloon fights and old momma witch and that's sad. And one of my nieces says all she wants in life in her tablet and to be a youtuber 😳🙄

    Ts4 is very accurate in that manner 😅
    But even if that's the case I think the Sims should not try to copy modern kids and exact realism because it's a video game. And a kid sitting on the PC or tablet for 5 hours in a game is simply boring. Seeing them run around and act like classic children is so much more heartwarming and fun too.

    Definitely would love for kids to build all kinda cardboard stuff. I swear I use to LIVE in a cardboard box and it was amazing 😂😂😂
    Zombies, oh please oh please give us zombies!! :'(
  • LiELFLiELF Posts: 6,439 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Do TS4 kids share secrets with each other? Do they play dress up with each other? I don't recall. Do they play hooky from school? I think there is a phone call adult Sims make to kids in TS4 about that. Do they sneak out past curfew? Or get brought home by the police? Teens and kids in the other games. No curfew in TS4, which I like that, however, it was also just weird to send my toddler all over the block and the parent not even go searching for them in City Living. Remember Bella and Mortimer would come get Casandra. So would townie adults or teens of any 'homeless' kid out too late at your Sim's house.

    I know Maxis must think or believe kids don't play tag or other kid games anymore, maybe they don't but maybe the parents in TS4 should demand they get off the pc and phones and get outside and do something together. Like build forts? Play with trash can lids and sticks for swords. Build a tree house, or a club house, it doesn't have to be beautiful if it's built out of cardboard or old boards. I think it would be great if Maxis would take a look at the 1930's Little Rascals shows and get some better ideas.

    I wondered myself if this was part of the problem also. Because the Sims is going for realism I feel like the ts4 kids do reflect modern kids.
    My little nieces and nephews literally just want to stay glued to an electronic device and they don't have the creativity and interactions we use to have when I was that age. Me and my mom literally have to pull the kids out of the house to run around and play human to human interactive games with us like water balloon fights and old momma witch and that's sad. And one of my nieces says all she wants in life in her tablet and to be a youtuber 😳🙄

    Ts4 is very accurate in that manner 😅
    But even if that's the case I think the Sims should not try to copy modern kids and exact realism because it's a video game. And a kid sitting on the PC or tablet for 5 hours in a game is simply boring. Seeing them run around and act like classic children is so much more heartwarming and fun too.

    Definitely would love for kids to build all kinda cardboard stuff. I swear I use to LIVE in a cardboard box and it was amazing 😂😂😂

    Exactly! Modern technology may be the current trend and relatable, but it doesn't make for interesting gameplay, and that's the problem with only catering to the current era.

    Another thing to consider is that just because times and technology move forward doesn't mean past generations of people just disappear. In its own way it's a little bit ageist to only build the game around one single generation, especially when so many loyal players have supported the game since earlier iterations. The past existed and people retain those memories and experiences. New does not erase old, it only picks up where it left off.

    Maybe we need a new kind of Generations pack that isn't just about family lineage, but also about the details of living in past generations as well. The newspaper boy, the milkman, doorbells, landline phones, outdoor activities for children to play with each other, teenage garage bands and hooplas and sneaking out to be with friends, old fashioned lawn mowers, car building, sewing your own garments, cassette boom box, local carnival with group activities, concerts, hangouts, romance and the search for compatibility... and many more things that Sims do with each other.

    I think I'd really like a pack like that.
    #Team Occult
  • theemaskedsimmertheemaskedsimmer Posts: 63 Member
    bixters wrote: »
    The title says it all!
    They are so boring in this game. There is hardly anything for them to do.

    All they have is:
    1. Activity Table
    2. Monkey Bars/ Jungle Gym
    3. Toybox
    4. Stuffed Animal
    5. Violin
    6. Computer games

    And when they're not doing those things, all they do is CLEAN. Mopping up puddles, washing the dishes, taking out the trash. The kids literally are so bored they're cleaning.


    Can we please get some more content for kids?

    I was just talking about this! They need more activities for the kids to do. I try not to work on their skills and develop relationships more. However, I would love to see a kit or a stuff pack with some kiddie goodies!
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    Yes, one thing I really enjoyed about previous Sims game was that teenagers felt like teenagers and children felt like children. Meaning, there were specific activities that only teens or only children could do and it made them feel much more unique.

    Now teens can essentially do anything adults can do and they keep updating the game so that now kids can do many of these teen/adult-only activities. I don't consider kids and teens being able to do what adults can do as "fun" or "unique" gameplay.
  • ThriorThrior Posts: 612 Member
    edited April 2022
    Id really love it if occult kids could actually do occult things. I was so annoyed when RoM came out and the only thing spellcaster kids could do was summon their familiar. (And dont get me started with their animation in CAS or I will rage forever) Im not saying that occult kids should have full access to their powers, but they're not normal kids! Let spellcaster kids learn a basic spell or have their parents teach them magic! Let vampire kids drink plasma packs or get uncomfortable when they're out on a sunny day! I'd honestly play occult families more often if occult kids were actually interesting to play. I dont want them acting like human kids all the time.
    Fully agreed. Just recently thought how annoying it is how these two vampire toddlers always take the negative relationship hit with their 2 vampire parents because the parents have a hissing problem. The game doesn't really even consider the kids as vampires so they act like humans thorough. Boring and disappointing. I really like your ideas of what occult kids could do.
    LiELF wrote: »
    It's a Sims 4 design flaw, I think, that Sims of any age really lack a variety of autonomous interactions and animations between them and that's what makes the game constantly feel like it needs more. The majority of interactions in the game involve objects and the autonomy is repetitious and samey with all Sims who have a tendency to be drawn to the same objects or have all the same idles. They are consistently drawn away from each other in favor of objects like the computer and when they are drawn to each other it's just the same idle chatting they do day after day and it never seems to change.

    So frustrating.

    Yes I very much agree with this. I really would just like there to be more human-to-human games and interaction for kids and all life stages really. Like where the heck is stuff like playing tag with your fellow kids? (Or childish adults. Ah, I loved my TS3 Emperor of Evil 5 star celeb vampire who liked to autonomously start games of tag with any random kids he said hello to lol.) It's like the kids can't do anything playful together unless they buy a specific item or use those playground objects in parks. Like, me and my sister did ALL kinds of stuff without even needing any fancy items. Tag, hide and seek, climbing trees (or any object really), making wreaths and...
    I don't know what I should call them in english but these cute things,
    BN9f5Sl.jpg
    or just using our imagination and roleplaying. Like having sword fights with sticks or "spying" our parents and others (purpose was to follow them without being seen, though I bet they all knew we were there and just pretended not to lol).
    It's like in TS4 they always need some fancy item to do anything and have even less options when it comes to any group activity. Most of the time they just seem like they want to be left alone glued to their computers. And like, look, as a geek I get that but man does it make for boring gameplay.
  • BabykittyjadeBabykittyjade Posts: 4,975 Member
    Thrior wrote: »
    Id really love it if occult kids could actually do occult things. I was so annoyed when RoM came out and the only thing spellcaster kids could do was summon their familiar. (And dont get me started with their animation in CAS or I will rage forever) Im not saying that occult kids should have full access to their powers, but they're not normal kids! Let spellcaster kids learn a basic spell or have their parents teach them magic! Let vampire kids drink plasma packs or get uncomfortable when they're out on a sunny day! I'd honestly play occult families more often if occult kids were actually interesting to play. I dont want them acting like human kids all the time.
    Fully agreed. Just recently thought how annoying it is how these two vampire toddlers always take the negative relationship hit with their 2 vampire parents because the parents have a hissing problem. The game doesn't really even consider the kids as vampires so they act like humans thorough. Boring and disappointing. I really like your ideas of what occult kids could do.
    LiELF wrote: »
    It's a Sims 4 design flaw, I think, that Sims of any age really lack a variety of autonomous interactions and animations between them and that's what makes the game constantly feel like it needs more. The majority of interactions in the game involve objects and the autonomy is repetitious and samey with all Sims who have a tendency to be drawn to the same objects or have all the same idles. They are consistently drawn away from each other in favor of objects like the computer and when they are drawn to each other it's just the same idle chatting they do day after day and it never seems to change.

    So frustrating.

    Yes I very much agree with this. I really would just like there to be more human-to-human games and interaction for kids and all life stages really. Like where the heck is stuff like playing tag with your fellow kids? (Or childish adults. Ah, I loved my TS3 Emperor of Evil 5 star celeb vampire who liked to autonomously start games of tag with any random kids he said hello to lol.) It's like the kids can't do anything playful together unless they buy a specific item or use those playground objects in parks. Like, me and my sister did ALL kinds of stuff without even needing any fancy items. Tag, hide and seek, climbing trees (or any object really), making wreaths and...
    I don't know what I should call them in english but these cute things,
    BN9f5Sl.jpg
    or just using our imagination and roleplaying. Like having sword fights with sticks or "spying" our parents and others (purpose was to follow them without being seen, though I bet they all knew we were there and just pretended not to lol).
    It's like in TS4 they always need some fancy item to do anything and have even less options when it comes to any group activity. Most of the time they just seem like they want to be left alone glued to their computers. And like, look, as a geek I get that but man does it make for boring gameplay.

    Oh my I love pine cones but never thought to make this!!! This is so cute 🥰
    Zombies, oh please oh please give us zombies!! :'(
  • ThriorThrior Posts: 612 Member
    Thrior wrote: »
    Id really love it if occult kids could actually do occult things. I was so annoyed when RoM came out and the only thing spellcaster kids could do was summon their familiar. (And dont get me started with their animation in CAS or I will rage forever) Im not saying that occult kids should have full access to their powers, but they're not normal kids! Let spellcaster kids learn a basic spell or have their parents teach them magic! Let vampire kids drink plasma packs or get uncomfortable when they're out on a sunny day! I'd honestly play occult families more often if occult kids were actually interesting to play. I dont want them acting like human kids all the time.
    Fully agreed. Just recently thought how annoying it is how these two vampire toddlers always take the negative relationship hit with their 2 vampire parents because the parents have a hissing problem. The game doesn't really even consider the kids as vampires so they act like humans thorough. Boring and disappointing. I really like your ideas of what occult kids could do.
    LiELF wrote: »
    It's a Sims 4 design flaw, I think, that Sims of any age really lack a variety of autonomous interactions and animations between them and that's what makes the game constantly feel like it needs more. The majority of interactions in the game involve objects and the autonomy is repetitious and samey with all Sims who have a tendency to be drawn to the same objects or have all the same idles. They are consistently drawn away from each other in favor of objects like the computer and when they are drawn to each other it's just the same idle chatting they do day after day and it never seems to change.

    So frustrating.

    Yes I very much agree with this. I really would just like there to be more human-to-human games and interaction for kids and all life stages really. Like where the heck is stuff like playing tag with your fellow kids? (Or childish adults. Ah, I loved my TS3 Emperor of Evil 5 star celeb vampire who liked to autonomously start games of tag with any random kids he said hello to lol.) It's like the kids can't do anything playful together unless they buy a specific item or use those playground objects in parks. Like, me and my sister did ALL kinds of stuff without even needing any fancy items. Tag, hide and seek, climbing trees (or any object really), making wreaths and...
    I don't know what I should call them in english but these cute things,
    BN9f5Sl.jpg
    or just using our imagination and roleplaying. Like having sword fights with sticks or "spying" our parents and others (purpose was to follow them without being seen, though I bet they all knew we were there and just pretended not to lol).
    It's like in TS4 they always need some fancy item to do anything and have even less options when it comes to any group activity. Most of the time they just seem like they want to be left alone glued to their computers. And like, look, as a geek I get that but man does it make for boring gameplay.

    Oh my I love pine cones but never thought to make this!!! This is so cute 🥰

    We in Finland traditionally call them "käpylehmä" which directly translates to "pine cone cow / cone cow" though that doesn't mean they are literally meant to be cows. Could have been a pine cone sheep or hedgehog if that strikes you fancy :joy:. There is this stereotypical view of them being related to "poor families which couldn't buy 'real' toys" but in the case of me and my sister, we just really liked to play outside and do all kinds of nature related stuff.
  • OldeseadoggeOldeseadogge Posts: 4,973 Member
    Fully agree with what nearly all of you have said, including about TS2 having a lot more sim to sim activities, including those not needing objects to activate. TS1 had the little boats you could sail on ponds.

    There are some activities that for children should start with an adult/teen teaching the child, knitting, cross-stitch, and work bench come to mind.

    Those pinecone animals are great! Thank you for sharing.
  • haisinhaisin Posts: 948 Member
    I love playing kids, but there are so many things that I wish they could do more... and most of those things have been already mentioned <3 Most of all I want them to do more things that are specific for kids such as play different games with other kids (in water too) and do imaginative kid things such as climb on or go under furniture, hide and jump out and scare others, jump on a couch or bed and stuff like that, maybe throw some things like stones into a lake and skip stones.

    I'm still happy that kids can read in their bed under a blanket. It means a lot that it was added, and also that kids have been included more in activities such as knitting and gardening, and I just want more, please give me more gameplay for kids :joy: And let them ride bikes and take dogs out for a walk.

    I also agree so much about occult kids! Occult kids would be so much more fun to play if they showed small signs of being occults and could do something occult specific.
  • SERVERFRASERVERFRA Posts: 7,108 Member
    I used to think they were a bit boring back in 2014, but not so much now. The kids can finally do more things in the game & can be helpful with their family. ;)
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    83bienchen wrote: »
    7. Void Critters
    8. Karaoke
    9. Puppet Theatre
    10. Piano/Keyboard/Pipe Organ
    11. Knitting
    12. Cross Stitching
    13. Fishing
    14. Skating
    15. Skiing
    16. Snowboarding
    17. Sledding
    19. Video console
    17. Foosball
    18. Basketball
    19. Soccer
    20. Chess
    21. Reading/Being read to
    22. Dollhouse
    23. Write Dollhouse Stories
    24. Gardening
    25. Yoga/Meditation
    26. Group Cooking
    27. Collections
    28. Blow Bubbles
    29. Swingset
    30. Play Sprinkler
    31. Swimming
    32. Snorkeling
    33. Caged pets
    34. Train dogs
    35. Waterballon/Snowball fight
    36. Face Masks
    37. Carve pumpkins
    38. Slow dancing
    39. Play in sand/snow
    40. Medium Skill Activities
    41. Teach toddlers building Blocks
    42. Acting after school activity
    43. Scouting
    44. Write/Sneak in diary
    45. Motion gaming rig
    46. Become Partners in crime
    47. Play cards
    48. Play wake the lama
    49. Doctor playset
    50. Play with globe bar
    45. Care for cottage animals
    46. Play in pond
    47. Play in bathtub
    48. Mold clay
    49. Play horsehoe


    Anyhow, I'm always all in for more stuff for kids.

    That's an impressive list, and I have already replied to this thread at least once. However, most of the things you have listed are objects and activities in packs that I don't own, there is nothing impressive about kids in TS4's base. I think that is where so many don't realize if a player doesn't buy every pack activity or new object, there is nothing in the base concerning kids' interactions together as there was in the original and in TS2. TS4 remains lacking concerning children's activities and interactions between each other.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • simgirl1010simgirl1010 Posts: 35,709 Member
    Can't wait for Little Campers! A few more things for our kiddies to do. Hope I'll be able to add some of the objects to my kids club venue.
  • halloweenchildhalloweenchild Posts: 1,534 Member
    Can't wait for Little Campers! A few more things for our kiddies to do. Hope I'll be able to add some of the objects to my kids club venue.

    I'm hoping it adds in features like catch, jumping on the bed or tag, I just miss kids being able to interact with each other and with their older family members.
    Give our Vampires back their fangs!!! Reverse the Nerf!!! Occult simmers should not be shoved aside for the "realism players"! It's time Occult lovers/players started to demand equal treatment. #JusticeForOccults
  • simgirl1010simgirl1010 Posts: 35,709 Member
    edited May 2022
    Can't wait for Little Campers! A few more things for our kiddies to do. Hope I'll be able to add some of the objects to my kids club venue.

    I'm hoping it adds in features like catch, jumping on the bed or tag, I just miss kids being able to interact with each other and with their older family members.

    @halloweenchild those are wonderful suggestions. Unfortunately I don't believe we'll be getting any new animations with the Little Campers Kit.

  • halloweenchildhalloweenchild Posts: 1,534 Member
    Can't wait for Little Campers! A few more things for our kiddies to do. Hope I'll be able to add some of the objects to my kids club venue.

    I'm hoping it adds in features like catch, jumping on the bed or tag, I just miss kids being able to interact with each other and with their older family members.

    @halloweenchild those are wonderful suggestions. Unfortunately I don't believe we'll be getting any new animations with the Little Campers Kit.


    That's a big sad, so it's just more cosmetics, instead of more gameplay. Dissappoining.
    Give our Vampires back their fangs!!! Reverse the Nerf!!! Occult simmers should not be shoved aside for the "realism players"! It's time Occult lovers/players started to demand equal treatment. #JusticeForOccults
  • ddd994ddd994 Posts: 418 Member
    I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks kids have plenty of stuff. I always think theres no way you can go through the entire kids gameplay in one 10 day lifespan when people complain about “kids always being excluded”. If anything I think with recent packs there’s been more effort to include kids..?
    Plus i don’t think adding “play tag” is gonna revolutionise children? As someone else mentioned, sims 4 autonomy system is flawed all around…

    But speaking of exclusive children content.. erm what about elders?? They have literally never been given exclusive gameplay, if anything they are the forgotten age group?
  • maggiemae8135maggiemae8135 Posts: 790 Member
    I can always find things for the children to do, but I still miss activities like hide and seek, tag, and playing cops and robbers like in the older versions. I would really enjoy having a family game, like the one in Sims 3 with the wooden freezer bunnies you had to knock down. You placed it in the sim's inventory and it could be played anywhere, so could bring it to a park or camping.
  • halloweenchildhalloweenchild Posts: 1,534 Member
    ddd994 wrote: »
    I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks kids have plenty of stuff. I always think theres no way you can go through the entire kids gameplay in one 10 day lifespan when people complain about “kids always being excluded”. If anything I think with recent packs there’s been more effort to include kids..?
    Plus i don’t think adding “play tag” is gonna revolutionise children? As someone else mentioned, sims 4 autonomy system is flawed all around…

    But speaking of exclusive children content.. erm what about elders?? They have literally never been given exclusive gameplay, if anything they are the forgotten age group?

    Oh no, having kids being able to play games with others isn't going to revolutionise them, but it will make them feel more like kids and not mini adults. Kids don't really have any kid games to play outside. There's play equipment sure, but no activities. Playing Tag was a personal fave of mine as a kid, catch works on hand-eye coordination and is important for the development of irl children.

    Anyway, all I'm saying is that kids in the sims don't feel like kids, because they're stuck inside or are only allowed to interact with certain objects, never with each other outside of "play together as group".

    And yes, elders need more things to do. For example, it bothers me that elders can't exercise without getting fatigued. Like really? All elderly folk are so frail they'll drop dead if they so much as jog halfway down the street? Obviously, whoever coded that, never had an active grandparent.
    Give our Vampires back their fangs!!! Reverse the Nerf!!! Occult simmers should not be shoved aside for the "realism players"! It's time Occult lovers/players started to demand equal treatment. #JusticeForOccults
  • ddd994ddd994 Posts: 418 Member
    ddd994 wrote: »
    I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks kids have plenty of stuff. I always think theres no way you can go through the entire kids gameplay in one 10 day lifespan when people complain about “kids always being excluded”. If anything I think with recent packs there’s been more effort to include kids..?
    Plus i don’t think adding “play tag” is gonna revolutionise children? As someone else mentioned, sims 4 autonomy system is flawed all around…

    But speaking of exclusive children content.. erm what about elders?? They have literally never been given exclusive gameplay, if anything they are the forgotten age group?

    Oh no, having kids being able to play games with others isn't going to revolutionise them, but it will make them feel more like kids and not mini adults. Kids don't really have any kid games to play outside. There's play equipment sure, but no activities. Playing Tag was a personal fave of mine as a kid, catch works on hand-eye coordination and is important for the development of irl children.

    Anyway, all I'm saying is that kids in the sims don't feel like kids, because they're stuck inside or are only allowed to interact with certain objects, never with each other outside of "play together as group".

    And yes, elders need more things to do. For example, it bothers me that elders can't exercise without getting fatigued. Like really? All elderly folk are so frail they'll drop dead if they so much as jog halfway down the street? Obviously, whoever coded that, never had an active grandparent.

    Fair point, I didn’t think of kids as mini adults but that is actually kinda true.. I also wish they had the private school option like in TS2.. their grades kinda feels pointless as is 🤷‍♂️

    But defo lacking with elders, they are the forgotten age group. I wish there was like a retirement home pack with activities like aerobics in shallow pools maybe? Or power walking haha I dunno, I think it would be fun to build retirement homes, maybe a Florida style world to boot.
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