Eh Finnish has hän, he(he/she, they), but in spoken it's Se, Ne(it, they(Se in plural)).
As a native english speaker, I've always used they/one, that latter being much harder to use in certain sentences. Mostly in online games where it is not clear if the person behind the character matches the gender of said character.
Edit: I suggest not to bring languages too deep into this because it'll get harder and harder to avoid excluding the cultural differences that come with them.
For me if the language was changed to they for every sim ("Jean got a new job! They start Monday at 9:00 a.m.) I would be mildly annoyed for a bit, mostly because I hate change, then move on and forget about it. I will still know that Jean is female, and the game referring to her as "they" isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. As for an option for a gender neutral option in CAS, sure, why not? I might or might not ever get around to making one, but I'm always pro more choices. I personally think that it's unlikely they will code the game to have them randomly generated, but if they were to do so, I'd definitely want a toggle to turn that off. Maybe the Sim the game thinks should be gender neutral doesn't seem like they should be to me. I'd just want that much control.
For me if the language was changed to they for every sim ("Jean got a new job! They start Monday at 9:00 a.m.) I would be mildly annoyed for a bit, mostly because I hate change, then move on and forget about it. I will still know that Jean is female, and the game referring to her as "they" isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. As for an option for a gender neutral option in CAS, sure, why not? I might or might not ever get around to making one, but I'm always pro more choices. I personally think that it's unlikely they will code the game to have them randomly generated, but if they were to do so, I'd definitely want a toggle to turn that off. Maybe the Sim the game thinks should be gender neutral doesn't seem like they should be to me. I'd just want that much control.
Everyone is different and must play their way. Everyone should have the tools to make who they want. How they’ll be able to represent all groups is going to be complex. 🤔
I wish I could be that calm if something pops up to disrupt my plans. I get very emotional! I can’t see me going ‘oh well’. 😂😂😂.
I want choices because I work hard on creating my Sims and stories. The gameplay of 4 is still lacking so making stories is vital. If I create a Sim, I’ve made either male or female. I want to see ‘he’ and ‘she’ because that’s who I made.
I have a roadmap so moving on would very difficult for me. I dislike random assignments.
I remember when I play Sims 3, it annoys me to see unplayed unemployed Sims being assigned careers and would switch to them to select where I want them. 😫
I just get very invested. The Sims isn’t a cheap hobby.
If this is a harmless topic, OP ought not to have lied in their initial post, and stated things in a calculatedly alarmist manner as hearsay.
They did.
And people jumped right on the bandwagon. Saying what they MEANT to say or how it was INTENDED is disingenuous. People HAVE asked for studio resources not to be spent on this, and HAVE complained about "political agendas" (which existing is not).
And I will call it out when I see it.
Yes, we know it is more complicated than switching pronouns. That's a conversation in the larger, RL, world about identity and respectful address. But tittering "but it's CONFUSING" comments over singular "they", and many other canards like "I am not educated on this issue, but..." among others played in this thread, are old, established derailing tactics brandished against trans and enby voices for years.
Don't want to be seen as a bigot? Don't be one. Posts are public.
I’m the OP. I don’t feel it’s fair to call me names. I have reported this.
I heard the livestream and made a comment. I’ve only asked for a toggle button. That is a request to the developers who read these forums too.
I just want to choose what goes on in my game. That’s all. If the topic isn’t to your liking there are other posts to follow.
Everyone is different and must play their way. Everyone should have the tools to make who they want. How they’ll be able to represent all groups is going to be complex. 🤔
I wish I could be that calm if something pops up to disrupt my plans. I get very emotional! I can’t see me going ‘oh well’. 😂😂😂.
I want choices because I work hard on creating my Sims and stories. The gameplay of 4 is still lacking so making stories is vital. If I create a Sim, I’ve made either male or female. I want to see ‘he’ and ‘she’ because that’s who I made.
I have a roadmap so moving on would very difficult for me. I dislike random assignments.
I remember when I play Sims 3, it annoys me to see unplayed unemployed Sims being assigned careers and would switch to them to select where I want them. 😫
I just get very invested. The Sims isn’t a cheap hobby.
I do understand your viewpoint. I suppose for me I really wouldn't be too bothered because I rarely read the text popups anyway since 99% of the time I know or can guess what they will say. My opinions are pretty much always going to be more pragmatic than political.
I hope everyone can get what they want. However, since this is EA, I'm not optimistic.
Pansexual and Asexual are sexual orientations, not gender identities. You can sort if simulate Asexual with the "unflirty" trait and there is a reward store thing that allows you to have multiple partners without anyone being jealous so pansexual can be created with that. But generally speaking the game doesn't allow you to select a sexual orientation. It learns it via the types of romantic interactions the player initiates for that sim.
I think you misunderstood the intent of my original post. It was a friendly comment made in response to someone's else pleasure at seeing different groups being represented in the game. It was not intended to be a comment about gender specifically, or about any particular feature in the game.
No, you said you heard the livestream mention making the Sims gender-neutral (it didn't - they commented on the demand for and linguistic complexity of adding, pronoun options) and asked for a button to hide inclusiveness changes.
That's what those opposed responded to. It was many posts in before anyone actually looked at what the livestream did say. By then it was too late for this conversation.
No, you said you heard the livestream mention making the Sims gender-neutral (it didn't - they commented on the demand for and linguistic complexity of adding, pronoun options) and asked for a button to hide inclusiveness changes.
That's what those opposed responded to. It was many posts in before anyone actually looked at what the livestream did say. By then it was too late for this conversation.
All types of sims people: male, female, trans, drag, bi, neutral, either, whatever, it, multisex & eunich.
If I left anyone out please forgive me, I'm not very political correct.
This was the original post.
I responded with:
You might want to add pan sexual and asexual.
Just because I'm in favour of personal choice, it doesn't mean I don't support inclusion.
Theres a reason why these pronouns don’t exist for made up genders in other languages. Because there’s only two genders & they exist in the game already. You can’t change your chromosome based on how you feel. If that was the case I’d be a hairy mermaid out at sea waiting for my hunk sailor boy. But I’d end up being locked up for being a danger to myself?
It's really funny you bring that up because you can do that in the sims 😂.
Pronouns are tricky. I'd rather the game do a complete removal of them entirely in favor of using the sims' name, which would be the same amt of work if not less as new pronouns, with the added benefit of being compatible across all languages.
Someone brought up restroom doors - Add a third bathroom door option? That's already being done IRL.
In terms of wardrobe, sims are so borked already that I'm not concerned. I can't imagine townies looking any worse.
I wish that sexuality actually held weight in this game. Lots of labels get attached to sims that they do not abide by. For example, in Sims 2, gay sims were, well, gay. They couldn't be attracted to the opposite gender and vice versa. Every sim in Sims 4 seems to be a chaotic pansexual.
I'm worried about how it would come across in text like if you were saying they the group bevenut also had to
talk about what the gender neutral sim was doing in the group but the sim is also called they
surly they wouldn't call the sim it would they
It's actually easy in real life, to determine whether "they" refers to a group or an individual, from context, i.e., "Hey look! Someone left their wallet!" or "Did you find out from Kai what they wanted on their pizza?" so it's not nearly the stumbling block in practice, that it might appear to be.
but I don't think I've ever spoken that way and I don't think I've every seen it written that way with they meaning one person
context its helpful but it can only go so far I misunderstand people with they talk as I have always done
how much more will I misunderstand if they change text I'm not saying you shouldn't have it if you want it
it would just be a little easier for me if I could have it the way I like to @Nushnushganay
@comicsforlife oh, certainly, I respect choices I'm surprised you've never encountered it before in real life, though, because it has become so ubiquitous. I myself am grammarian enough to grit my teeth at disuse of the subjunctive mood, even in serious writing from educated writers.
Yet the practical need for a solution other than the burdensome use of 'his or her' which also excludes those to whom neither applies, or else the even more sexist and exclusionary use of a generic universal 'he', is enough to convince me to accept and learn new ways of doing things, even at my age.
I hope the game isn't going to abandon the use of masculine or feminine pronouns entirely, but that wasn't the sense I got from what others posted on it. It seems as if "they/them" would only be applied to nonbinary Sims.
Again, most people have heard phrases like "Gross, someone spit their gum on the sidewalk!" but don't pay any attention to the fact that it wasn't "Gross, someone spit his or her gum on the sidewalk!" and in fact, if anyone did say it that way, they'd sound (see? I just did it again: THEY'd sound) really unnatural. I point this out in hopes of shining light on how common "they" has become in natural speech, when talking about an unknown person who is nevertheless a singular entity.
Would never wish to take anyone's choices away, though, and I hope the existence of nonbinary and intersex people in real life as well as in the game, isn't seen as a threat to the existence of the majority of masculine- and feminine-gendered people out there. I guess including nonbinary people in the game, is less an act of erasing gender for the majority, than an act of stopping erasing those for whom the gender binary is inadequate or inappropriate.
Appreciate the courage you have in talking about it honestly. I know this can be a touchy subject on any side of it, and we must all practice more kindness any time someone is genuinely trying to make sense of it all.
Racism is EVERYONE's fight #BLM #StopAsianHate
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
If this is a harmless topic, OP ought not to have lied in their initial post, and stated things in a calculatedly alarmist manner as hearsay.
They did.
And people jumped right on the bandwagon. Saying what they MEANT to say or how it was INTENDED is disingenuous. People HAVE asked for studio resources not to be spent on this, and HAVE complained about "political agendas" (which existing is not).
And I will call it out when I see it.
Yes, we know it is more complicated than switching pronouns. That's a conversation in the larger, RL, world about identity and respectful address. But tittering "but it's CONFUSING" comments over singular "they", and many other canards like "I am not educated on this issue, but..." among others played in this thread, are old, established derailing tactics brandished against trans and enby voices for years.
Don't want to be seen as a bigot? Don't be one. Posts are public.
I can't help how you see me you can call me names if you like it does not make it
true I'm just saying things I would like in game just as you are
I'm not saying it so people will think me a nice person
I'm saying it because I want options who knows you might be a better person
then me or I might help far more people then you we will never will know
I'm surprised you've never encountered it before in real life, though, because it has become so ubiquitous
I hope the game isn't going to abandon the use of masculine or feminine pronouns entirely, but that wasn't the sense I got from what others posted on it. It seems as if "they/them" would only be applied to nonbinary Sims.
well that would be what I'm hoping @Nushnushganay and no stuff like pronouns most people where I live if you brought that
up wouldn't even know what you were talking about
I think asking to toggle any gender off is kind of rude unless they give the option to toggle any gender of the players choosing off. I'd enjoy an all male save to be honest. Only reproduction by alien abduction.
I think asking to toggle any gender off is kind of rude unless they give the option to toggle any gender of the players choosing off. I'd enjoy an all male save to be honest. Only reproduction by alien abduction.
Personally, I don't want to toggle off any gender. I just want to be able to have binary and non-binary options in the game text.
I wanted to clarify for those who have opined that there are only two genders: that is factually inaccurate, for several reasons:
First, I was raised in a generation that equated gender with sex, which use of the word 'gender' (as a synonym for biological sex) had come into vogue at first, as a humorous euphemism, since the term 'sex' had departed in connotation from biological sex, to the sex act, and had therefore taken on a meaning seen as inappropriate for publications meant for general audiences, such that the euphemism 'gender' was used instead. Prior to that, the term 'gender' meant something more like 'type, or kind of, or species'.
Note usage from this excerpt from William Shakespeare's "The Phoenix and the Turtle":
"And thou treble-dated crow,
That thy sable gender mak'st
With the breath thou giv'st and tak'st,
'Mongst our mourners shalt thou go. "
The biological sex of the crow was not being descibed as sable; rather, sable was an adjective to gender, such that the crow's "sable gender" indicated its type of bird. A black, or sable, bird.
At any rate, having established that gender is not a synonym for biological sex, but became misunderstood to be after the use of it as a euphemism became common enough in the 20th century, we can move on to the idea of biological sex.
Yes, we are animals. Yes, we are mammals, and mammals reproduce via specific interactions between the male and female sexes generally, to which most, but not all, people are born. Intersex people exist, and people whose chromosomes are exceptions to the general XX or XY rule, exist, in larger numbers than was generally known throughout most of the 20th century. This doesn't mean there is no such thing as a male or female sex. But to insist that everyone is either clearly male or clearly female, even biologically and apart from gender, erases and denies the existence of those whose chromosomes, hormones, and/or brains, do not adhere to those neat definitions.
No one is saying that anyone can change their chromosomes by wishing to. But everyone's chromosomes aren't XX or XY, and apart from that, everyone's brain organization or sense of self, doesn't line up neatly with expectations based on their chromosomes or even outward appearance, and this is not some character flaw in people for whom that is the case.
As to gender, I was surprised myself to find out how widespread and powerful had been the sociopolitical erasure of cultural customs allowing for a third gender (the social roles and expectations given to people in a society, usually based on their biological sex) other than, or outside of, the masculine and the feminine. This article has a neat list of cultural traditions around the world which, from ancient times, had such third-gender traditions. It's telling that in many cases, colonialism opposed and erased these traditions to the point that most of us never heard of them until recently, and most of us naively believed all this to be some new, and therefore culturally irrelevant, idea.
It's not helpful to anyone, for any of us to aggress against one another, because the truth is, we're all human, and if someone tells me they are neither male nor female, whether that is due to their chromosomes, their brain organization, their hormonal situation, some combination of those, or something else, courtesy and respect indicate that my only requirement is to take them at their word, about themselves, and treat them with the same respect I'd treat anyone else, and would hope to receive in kind.
I might stumble and trip if you tell me your pronouns are xe/xir, but if I have the opportunity to use them often enough, I'll get used to it the same way I learned your name: by repetition. And if your name is one I've never heard before, I'll try to pronounce it correctly and remember it, rather than tell you that you should just accept being called Chad, instead. We all want a basic level of respect from others, even if we dress differently, speak differently, have different pronouns from the most common ones, love differently, or don't adhere to someone else's cultural assumptions.
Racism is EVERYONE's fight #BLM #StopAsianHate
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
I think asking to toggle any gender off is kind of rude unless they give the option to toggle any gender of the players choosing off. I'd enjoy an all male save to be honest. Only reproduction by alien abduction.
Personally, I don't want to toggle off any gender. I just want to be able to have binary and non-binary options in the game text.
Same here. I personally have no issues with non-binary Sims being in my game or for those Sims to be referred to with non-binary pronouns. However, I still want my cis-gender sims to be referred to by the respective feminine and masculine pronouns.
And while I can't speak for everyone, I think that's probably what a good number of us are asking for when we say "options." It's not so much "we want to be able to turn non-binary and only non-binary off" as much as it's "we want our binary female sims to be referred to as female, and for our binary male sims to be referred to as male in the game's pop-up texts."
As I am a Cis-Gendered female myself, it's important to me for my simself to be referred to as female in the game's text and quite frankly, it would bother me for her to be referred to as they/them. The same way I'm sure it bothers non-binary players to be referred to in binary pronouns.
That's all I'm personally asking... langauge differences/difficulties aside... for the text to remain the same for binary sims, and the addition of gender neutral langauge for non-binary sims.
And no one seriously expects that to be taken away, so please stop agonizing over it, and maybe refrain from implying anyone is suggesting currently available pronouns, default for the entire history of the game, would possibly be removed.
Please. To suggest otherwise, as the OP does, is disingenuous or dishonest, and that is my objection to the premise of this thread. It's scare-mongering.
I think asking to toggle any gender off is kind of rude unless they give the option to toggle any gender of the players choosing off. I'd enjoy an all male save to be honest. Only reproduction by alien abduction.
Personally, I don't want to toggle off any gender. I just want to be able to have binary and non-binary options in the game text.
Same here. I personally have no issues with non-binary Sims being in my game or for those Sims to be referred to with non-binary pronouns. However, I still want my cis-gender sims to be referred to by the respective feminine and masculine pronouns.
And while I can't speak for everyone, I think that's probably what a good number of us are asking for when we say "options." It's not so much "we want to be able to turn non-binary and only non-binary off" as much as it's "we want our binary female sims to be referred to as female, and for our binary male sims to be referred to as male in the game's pop-up texts."
As I am a Cis-Gendered female myself, it's important to me for my simself to be referred to as female in the game's text and quite frankly, it would bother me for her to be referred to as they/them. The same way I'm sure it bothers non-binary players to be referred to in binary pronouns.
That's all I'm personally asking... langauge differences/difficulties aside... for the text to remain the same for binary sims, and the addition of gender neutral langauge for non-binary sims.
And no one seriously expects that to be taken away, so please stop agonizing over it, and maybe refrain from implying anyone is suggesting currently available pronouns, default for the entire history of the game, would possibly be removed.
Please. To suggest otherwise, as the OP does, is disingenuous or dishonest, and that is my objection to the premise of this thread. It's scare-mongering.
While I can understand where your objection is coming from, it's not really fair to accuse of people of just trying to stir up fear.
Because, at least in my case, I am being 100% serious in my fear/concern that the current pronouns will get removed/replaced, which is why I am continuously expressing it.
I know nothing in the livestream suggests that will happen but the one part of the petition (which is likely why the gurus even brought this whole thing up) DOES imply to me that replacing all existing text within the game with gender neutral pronouns is a possibility that they want. And I'm legitimately afraid that that's the route the devs will choose to take especially as more people sign the petition.
So no, I personally am not being dishonest by suggesting this is a possibility. I am literally afraid it will happen and I'll have to search for a mod to reverse it. And I actually talked about this on my post for the 411 feedback thing. That's how concerned I am about this.
And before anyone suggests that I need mental help... I'm already getting it have been for 4 years now and barely no improvement.
I do hope there's an x button for choices. For example: Tops that are only for males can be available for females by clicking the x button off on Feminine & visa versa.
If this is a harmless topic, OP ought not to have lied in their initial post, and stated things in a calculatedly alarmist manner as hearsay.
They did.
And people jumped right on the bandwagon. Saying what they MEANT to say or how it was INTENDED is disingenuous. People HAVE asked for studio resources not to be spent on this, and HAVE complained about "political agendas" (which existing is not).
And I will call it out when I see it.
Yes, we know it is more complicated than switching pronouns. That's a conversation in the larger, RL, world about identity and respectful address. But tittering "but it's CONFUSING" comments over singular "they", and many other canards like "I am not educated on this issue, but..." among others played in this thread, are old, established derailing tactics brandished against trans and enby voices for years.
Don't want to be seen as a bigot? Don't be one. Posts are public.
How rude. I’m the OP. I didn’t lie. I’m not a bigot. That’s not on. Reported.
I heard the livestream and made a comment. I’ve only asked for a toggle button. Options is all I said. That is a request to the developers who read these forums too, not scare mongering.
I have gay friends, I worked with a drag queen. How dare you call me names. I just want to choose what goes on in my game. That’s all.
I don’t need your permission to make a post and neither will I seek it. Don’t reply to any more of my posts. Ever.
I’m taking action because I will not be called names.
Demonstrably false.
Your initial post is still there. You either did not hear the livestream, or you are deliberately distorting what was said, because at no point was gender-neutrality announced as a pending feature as you claim in that livestream:
I heard on a livestream they were going to include gender neutrality in the Sims. I hope it’s going to be a toggle button so it’s a choice. I think that would be fair, having options is important. Everyone plays differently.
Your actual words.
What Maxis said was that they are aware of an interest in pronoun options, that they take this content seriously, and that localization across some number of languages in which The Sims is published make that an unusually complicated task.
That's a placatory statement that we cannot expect to see pronoun options any time soon. It's how they signal *not* to expect changes in upcoming content patches, at least not in this regard.
Your misstatement framed an adversarial opposition to its inclusion by stating it as a done deal. It isn't. Then, you asked to have it made in a way that it could be disabled, if it were implemented, which is still not confirmed.
This is a baiting, leading, dishonest thread, and it states a circumstance counter to fact, as an argument against "forced" inclusiveness. It is a thinly veiled attack, a cheap rhetorical trick, and I won't stand for it.
Comments
As a native english speaker, I've always used they/one, that latter being much harder to use in certain sentences. Mostly in online games where it is not clear if the person behind the character matches the gender of said character.
Edit: I suggest not to bring languages too deep into this because it'll get harder and harder to avoid excluding the cultural differences that come with them.
Everyone is different and must play their way. Everyone should have the tools to make who they want. How they’ll be able to represent all groups is going to be complex. 🤔
I wish I could be that calm if something pops up to disrupt my plans. I get very emotional! I can’t see me going ‘oh well’. 😂😂😂.
I want choices because I work hard on creating my Sims and stories. The gameplay of 4 is still lacking so making stories is vital. If I create a Sim, I’ve made either male or female. I want to see ‘he’ and ‘she’ because that’s who I made.
I have a roadmap so moving on would very difficult for me. I dislike random assignments.
I remember when I play Sims 3, it annoys me to see unplayed unemployed Sims being assigned careers and would switch to them to select where I want them. 😫
I just get very invested. The Sims isn’t a cheap hobby.
I’m the OP. I don’t feel it’s fair to call me names. I have reported this.
I heard the livestream and made a comment. I’ve only asked for a toggle button. That is a request to the developers who read these forums too.
I just want to choose what goes on in my game. That’s all. If the topic isn’t to your liking there are other posts to follow.
I do understand your viewpoint. I suppose for me I really wouldn't be too bothered because I rarely read the text popups anyway since 99% of the time I know or can guess what they will say. My opinions are pretty much always going to be more pragmatic than political.
I hope everyone can get what they want. However, since this is EA, I'm not optimistic.
I think you misunderstood the intent of my original post. It was a friendly comment made in response to someone's else pleasure at seeing different groups being represented in the game. It was not intended to be a comment about gender specifically, or about any particular feature in the game.
That's what those opposed responded to. It was many posts in before anyone actually looked at what the livestream did say. By then it was too late for this conversation.
Stop gas-lighting. It won't work.
If your comment is directed at me. That was different post. I think you ned to check what I wrote, before you post negative comments.
This was the original post.
I responded with:
Just because I'm in favour of personal choice, it doesn't mean I don't support inclusion.
Exactly. I want personal choice. It doesn’t mean leaving anyone out.
Everyone should be able to play their own way.
It's really funny you bring that up because you can do that in the sims 😂.
Pronouns are tricky. I'd rather the game do a complete removal of them entirely in favor of using the sims' name, which would be the same amt of work if not less as new pronouns, with the added benefit of being compatible across all languages.
Someone brought up restroom doors - Add a third bathroom door option? That's already being done IRL.
In terms of wardrobe, sims are so borked already that I'm not concerned. I can't imagine townies looking any worse.
I wish that sexuality actually held weight in this game. Lots of labels get attached to sims that they do not abide by. For example, in Sims 2, gay sims were, well, gay. They couldn't be attracted to the opposite gender and vice versa. Every sim in Sims 4 seems to be a chaotic pansexual.
but I don't think I've ever spoken that way and I don't think I've every seen it written that way with they meaning one person
context its helpful but it can only go so far I misunderstand people with they talk as I have always done
how much more will I misunderstand if they change text I'm not saying you shouldn't have it if you want it
it would just be a little easier for me if I could have it the way I like to @Nushnushganay
Yet the practical need for a solution other than the burdensome use of 'his or her' which also excludes those to whom neither applies, or else the even more sexist and exclusionary use of a generic universal 'he', is enough to convince me to accept and learn new ways of doing things, even at my age.
I hope the game isn't going to abandon the use of masculine or feminine pronouns entirely, but that wasn't the sense I got from what others posted on it. It seems as if "they/them" would only be applied to nonbinary Sims.
Again, most people have heard phrases like "Gross, someone spit their gum on the sidewalk!" but don't pay any attention to the fact that it wasn't "Gross, someone spit his or her gum on the sidewalk!" and in fact, if anyone did say it that way, they'd sound (see? I just did it again: THEY'd sound) really unnatural. I point this out in hopes of shining light on how common "they" has become in natural speech, when talking about an unknown person who is nevertheless a singular entity.
Would never wish to take anyone's choices away, though, and I hope the existence of nonbinary and intersex people in real life as well as in the game, isn't seen as a threat to the existence of the majority of masculine- and feminine-gendered people out there. I guess including nonbinary people in the game, is less an act of erasing gender for the majority, than an act of stopping erasing those for whom the gender binary is inadequate or inappropriate.
Appreciate the courage you have in talking about it honestly. I know this can be a touchy subject on any side of it, and we must all practice more kindness any time someone is genuinely trying to make sense of it all.
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
I can't help how you see me you can call me names if you like it does not make it
true I'm just saying things I would like in game just as you are
I'm not saying it so people will think me a nice person
I'm saying it because I want options who knows you might be a better person
then me or I might help far more people then you we will never will know
up wouldn't even know what you were talking about
Personally, I don't want to toggle off any gender. I just want to be able to have binary and non-binary options in the game text.
First, I was raised in a generation that equated gender with sex, which use of the word 'gender' (as a synonym for biological sex) had come into vogue at first, as a humorous euphemism, since the term 'sex' had departed in connotation from biological sex, to the sex act, and had therefore taken on a meaning seen as inappropriate for publications meant for general audiences, such that the euphemism 'gender' was used instead. Prior to that, the term 'gender' meant something more like 'type, or kind of, or species'.
Note usage from this excerpt from William Shakespeare's "The Phoenix and the Turtle":
"And thou treble-dated crow,
That thy sable gender mak'st
With the breath thou giv'st and tak'st,
'Mongst our mourners shalt thou go. "
The biological sex of the crow was not being descibed as sable; rather, sable was an adjective to gender, such that the crow's "sable gender" indicated its type of bird. A black, or sable, bird.
At any rate, having established that gender is not a synonym for biological sex, but became misunderstood to be after the use of it as a euphemism became common enough in the 20th century, we can move on to the idea of biological sex.
Yes, we are animals. Yes, we are mammals, and mammals reproduce via specific interactions between the male and female sexes generally, to which most, but not all, people are born. Intersex people exist, and people whose chromosomes are exceptions to the general XX or XY rule, exist, in larger numbers than was generally known throughout most of the 20th century. This doesn't mean there is no such thing as a male or female sex. But to insist that everyone is either clearly male or clearly female, even biologically and apart from gender, erases and denies the existence of those whose chromosomes, hormones, and/or brains, do not adhere to those neat definitions.
No one is saying that anyone can change their chromosomes by wishing to. But everyone's chromosomes aren't XX or XY, and apart from that, everyone's brain organization or sense of self, doesn't line up neatly with expectations based on their chromosomes or even outward appearance, and this is not some character flaw in people for whom that is the case.
As to gender, I was surprised myself to find out how widespread and powerful had been the sociopolitical erasure of cultural customs allowing for a third gender (the social roles and expectations given to people in a society, usually based on their biological sex) other than, or outside of, the masculine and the feminine. This article has a neat list of cultural traditions around the world which, from ancient times, had such third-gender traditions. It's telling that in many cases, colonialism opposed and erased these traditions to the point that most of us never heard of them until recently, and most of us naively believed all this to be some new, and therefore culturally irrelevant, idea.
It's not helpful to anyone, for any of us to aggress against one another, because the truth is, we're all human, and if someone tells me they are neither male nor female, whether that is due to their chromosomes, their brain organization, their hormonal situation, some combination of those, or something else, courtesy and respect indicate that my only requirement is to take them at their word, about themselves, and treat them with the same respect I'd treat anyone else, and would hope to receive in kind.
I might stumble and trip if you tell me your pronouns are xe/xir, but if I have the opportunity to use them often enough, I'll get used to it the same way I learned your name: by repetition. And if your name is one I've never heard before, I'll try to pronounce it correctly and remember it, rather than tell you that you should just accept being called Chad, instead. We all want a basic level of respect from others, even if we dress differently, speak differently, have different pronouns from the most common ones, love differently, or don't adhere to someone else's cultural assumptions.
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
Same here. I personally have no issues with non-binary Sims being in my game or for those Sims to be referred to with non-binary pronouns. However, I still want my cis-gender sims to be referred to by the respective feminine and masculine pronouns.
And while I can't speak for everyone, I think that's probably what a good number of us are asking for when we say "options." It's not so much "we want to be able to turn non-binary and only non-binary off" as much as it's "we want our binary female sims to be referred to as female, and for our binary male sims to be referred to as male in the game's pop-up texts."
As I am a Cis-Gendered female myself, it's important to me for my simself to be referred to as female in the game's text and quite frankly, it would bother me for her to be referred to as they/them. The same way I'm sure it bothers non-binary players to be referred to in binary pronouns.
That's all I'm personally asking... langauge differences/difficulties aside... for the text to remain the same for binary sims, and the addition of gender neutral langauge for non-binary sims.
Please. To suggest otherwise, as the OP does, is disingenuous or dishonest, and that is my objection to the premise of this thread. It's scare-mongering.
Yes, exactly.
While I can understand where your objection is coming from, it's not really fair to accuse of people of just trying to stir up fear.
Because, at least in my case, I am being 100% serious in my fear/concern that the current pronouns will get removed/replaced, which is why I am continuously expressing it.
I know nothing in the livestream suggests that will happen but the one part of the petition (which is likely why the gurus even brought this whole thing up) DOES imply to me that replacing all existing text within the game with gender neutral pronouns is a possibility that they want. And I'm legitimately afraid that that's the route the devs will choose to take especially as more people sign the petition.
So no, I personally am not being dishonest by suggesting this is a possibility. I am literally afraid it will happen and I'll have to search for a mod to reverse it. And I actually talked about this on my post for the 411 feedback thing. That's how concerned I am about this.
And before anyone suggests that I need mental help... I'm already getting it
Demonstrably false.
Your initial post is still there. You either did not hear the livestream, or you are deliberately distorting what was said, because at no point was gender-neutrality announced as a pending feature as you claim in that livestream:
Your actual words.
What Maxis said was that they are aware of an interest in pronoun options, that they take this content seriously, and that localization across some number of languages in which The Sims is published make that an unusually complicated task.
That's a placatory statement that we cannot expect to see pronoun options any time soon. It's how they signal *not* to expect changes in upcoming content patches, at least not in this regard.
Your misstatement framed an adversarial opposition to its inclusion by stating it as a done deal. It isn't. Then, you asked to have it made in a way that it could be disabled, if it were implemented, which is still not confirmed.
This is a baiting, leading, dishonest thread, and it states a circumstance counter to fact, as an argument against "forced" inclusiveness. It is a thinly veiled attack, a cheap rhetorical trick, and I won't stand for it.