And nothing has ever suggested that would not be maintained... Until this thread came along to suggest it.
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier does suggest just that. That it should be changed rather than maintained.
"or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged"
And this is what so many people on this thread have a problem with.
Removing gendered language from the game is not being inclusive. It's just excluding a different group of people.
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
I suspected that... that makes me wonder how much text that would need to be completely rewritten to work with 18 languages.
I am not an expert in this area, but I will give my opinion anyway: The answer is somewhere between a staggering amount and almost all of it. It would have to be done in multiple languages, all with their own grammar rules.
It is also possible that varying trade policies, which are influenced by varying political views, could come into play. For example: France is very protective of its language, and treasures it for its precision. The French Academy, which is tasked with guarding the language, mainly from English influences, recently came out against gender neutral language being used within the educational system, or within any learning of the French language. If I understand correctly, gender neutral language is now banned in classrooms. So while the subjects/verbs/adjectives could be changed in game as per the Italian language example, it is not out of the question to wonder if the French would allow the sale of a game, aimed at teenagers, that violates their language rules. But that could depend on which political party holds power at the time, and how angry they are at American companies for influencing language within the French youth culture.
As I said, I am not an expert in this area. I know a little bit. So take my opinion as just that, an opinion. And my opinion is that this could be much more troublesome an affair than some people think.
All of the above proves the thing i is not easy to do, to me, like @SanniSilli , it would make zero difference as we do have that already.
But, like examples of Italy and France here, is the pronouns really that important to use such a big efforts (I assume it means money) , for that only, instead than fixing the bugs??
My love, my love, my fearless love, I will not say goodbye..
Sea may rise, sky may fall, My love will never die..
My heart, my heart, My drowning heart, Oh all the tears I've cried
Oh I may weep forevermore, My love will never die..
And nothing has ever suggested that would not be maintained... Until this thread came along to suggest it.
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier ....
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
And nothing has ever suggested that would not be maintained... Until this thread came along to suggest it.
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier ....
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
I'm just mentioning where the idea that the choice not being maintained came from. And nobody is harassing anyone or trying to push back inclusion. We're just empathizing that there needs to be a choice in which pronouns are used to refer to our sims.
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
I suspected that... that makes me wonder how much text that would need to be completely rewritten to work with 18 languages.
I am not an expert in this area, but I will give my opinion anyway: The answer is somewhere between a staggering amount and almost all of it. It would have to be done in multiple languages, all with their own grammar rules.
It is also possible that varying trade policies, which are influenced by varying political views, could come into play. For example: France is very protective of its language, and treasures it for its precision. The French Academy, which is tasked with guarding the language, mainly from English influences, recently came out against gender neutral language being used within the educational system, or within any learning of the French language. If I understand correctly, gender neutral language is now banned in classrooms. So while the subjects/verbs/adjectives could be changed in game as per the Italian language example, it is not out of the question to wonder if the French would allow the sale of a game, aimed at teenagers, that violates their language rules. But that could depend on which political party holds power at the time, and how angry they are at American companies for influencing language within the French youth culture.
As I said, I am not an expert in this area. I know a little bit. So take my opinion as just that, an opinion. And my opinion is that this could be much more troublesome an affair than some people think.
And that's why I think people need to think alot more critically about the position the dev team is in. This goes well beyond just yelling on Twitter over and over on gender neutral terminology inclusion. You cant just drop the English word "they" in someone's game where their language has no rules in place for it and call it a day. That's not how this works. The game shouldnt be catering to English speaking players.
We need to be realistic about this. This isnt something that is going to occur in an update a month or two from now. I doubt we'd get anything from this a year from now. We probably wont get anything about this for a long long time. Changing language as a whole is a whole lot trickier than alot of us think it is, especially if we've never studied a different language.
And nothing has ever suggested that would not be maintained... Until this thread came along to suggest it.
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier ....
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
why do you feel like everyone is harassing people ?
please try to calm down its not good for your health to get to
angry I'm sure most people on forum don't want to hurt anyone
I can't say no one because there always a chance a warped person
could be online but everyone here seems fine
No one really knows whether it would be maintained or not because non of us are in the development room when these things are being discussed.
Threads like this are important because it allows dialogue to happen. The problem on this forum is when folks start calling other folks names when expressing a differing opinion.
If this forum did not have moderators, it would be just like some of the malicious twitter and YouTube comments. Thank goodness they have rules and moderators to keep things somewhat civil.
Well said! 😎👍. It’s important to discuss things. Thank you!
And we don't want all of the in game text to be changed to be 100% gender neutral.
The livestream wasn’t clear how they were going to implement this, they said something about it being a journey rather than a destination. I wouldn’t want them to replace all the text either.
I always thought it was up to player how they want their sim to be in game? Like you can make the sim anyway you want them to look and play them as any way you want them to be..
It is up to the player and will be, Right now, however, it seems a lot of people DON'T CARE that there are players RIGHT NOW and in fact always HAVE BEEN who cannot play as they like, because their Sims must be a He or a She.
No one is taking your gender away. It's always been in game. The team isn't even sure how they could do it, and you all are freaking out and throwing a "not unless they let me TURN IT OFF in MY GAME!" hissy fit over an announcement that only said "we're looking at this, and it's something to take time with because it is complicated."
Which means that you go on having the game you have, and those to whom these changes would be affirming, and freeing, get nothing. And you say no one's being attacked? No - you need to check your privilege, and apologize. Saying something dismissive and awful, and saying "why can't you be nice?" while creating a panic over a problem that does not exist for you? No. Just don't.
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
There is a reason why these threads exist and this has nothing to do with folks being against inclusion. Believe me, it’s not. Nobody is harassing anybody.
I can sense a general nervousness among players regarding gameplay features getting nerfed because there are groups of simmers constantly calling for changes to be made due to political reasons, ethical reason or downright selfish reasons because the game isn’t exactly how they want to play it.
Maxis says: “we listen”, “we hear you” which is fantastic, however, often their “listening” results in making split second decisions that only benefits one group of very loud players without consulting others who also offer very valuable arguments. Time and again the latter is not being listened to because the “issue” needs to be resolved ASAP just to get the complaining group to shut up and make the company look all snazzy again.
The company’s solution: do exactly what that groups asks for (because in all fairness we don’t want to deal with them any longer) and let’s get rid of this and that feature.
Everything gets nerfed these days: traits, occults, you name it, there will be very little left of the game and the original spirit of The Sims if this trend continues.
Therefore it is not at all surprising that the moment a group calls for changes to be made to this game (it could be any group: LGTBQ, a religious group, just some random family of gnomes, it makes no difference) and the company acknowledges that call for change, part of the community will get jumpy and nervous and starts to wonder how these changes will be implemented and impact the game if they are indeed being made. That part of the community will share their concerns and offer solutions and beg the company for options (BUTTONS! TOGGLES!) because the company hasn’t been that great with options in the past.
It’s not about NOT wanting options for all gender identities or anyone who wants themselves represented in game. It’s about wanting options for EVERYONE, simply to stop this nerfing trend.
There is a reason why these threads exist and this has nothing to do with folks being against inclusion. Believe me, it’s not. Nobody is harassing anybody.
I can sense a general nervousness among players regarding gameplay features getting nerfed because there are groups of simmers constantly calling for changes to be made due to political reasons, ethical reason or downright selfish reasons because the game isn’t exactly how they want to play it.
Maxis says: “we listen”, “we hear you” which is fantastic, however, often their “listening” results in making split second decisions that only benefits one group of very loud players without consulting others who also offer very valuable arguments. Time and again the latter is not being listened to because the “issue” needs to be resolved ASAP just to get the complaining group to shut up and make the company look all snazzy again.
The company’s solution: do exactly what that groups asks for (because in all fairness we don’t want to deal with them any longer) and let’s get rid of this and that feature.
Everything gets nerfed these days: traits, occults, you name it, there will be very little left of the game and the original spirit of The Sims if this trend continues.
Therefore it is not at all surprising that the moment a group calls for changes to be made to this game (it could be any group: LGTBQ, a religious group, just some random family of gnomes, it makes no difference) and the company acknowledges that call for change, part of the community will get jumpy and nervous and starts to wonder how these changes will be implemented and impact the game if they are indeed being made. That part of the community will share their concerns and offer solutions and beg the company for options (BUTTONS! TOGGLES!) because the company hasn’t been that great with options in the past.
It’s not about NOT wanting options for all gender identities or anyone who wants themselves represented in game. It’s about wanting options for EVERYONE, simply to stop this nerfing trend.
Exactly. Well said. 😎👍. Buttons and/or toggles is all I asked for.
I never understood why they nerfed so much stuff. Poor Vlad now unable to pester my Sims. I only see him now about once a week trying to get inside a house.
I found the livestream was unclear how they were going to tackle it. They are looking at making some changes that is clear or they wouldn’t have mentioned their on a journey with this topic, so they want to end up somewhere with it. Something down the line will be added or changed. Why make a point of saying it if it’s going ultimately going nowhere?
And nothing has ever suggested that would not be maintained... Until this thread came along to suggest it.
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier ....
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
I agree that's not what they said in the livestream, however, they most likely brought that question up during the livestream because that petition which suggest "or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged" have been shared by several GameChangers on twitter and have gotten a lot of responses from the sims community on twitter.
We must be realistic about this, this could lead to them making changes that a lot of people might not agree with. Talking about inclusion and representation is all well and good, but you also have to be prepared to discuss with people and find compromises.
It is up to the player and will be, Right now, however, it seems a lot of people DON'T CARE that there are players RIGHT NOW and in fact always HAVE BEEN who cannot play as they like, because their Sims must be a He or a She.
No one is taking your gender away. It's always been in game. The team isn't even sure how they could do it, and you all are freaking out and throwing a "not unless they let me TURN IT OFF in MY GAME!" hissy fit over an announcement that only said "we're looking at this, and it's something to take time with because it is complicated."
Which means that you go on having the game you have, and those to whom these changes would be affirming, and freeing, get nothing. And you say no one's being attacked? No - you need to check your privilege, and apologize. Saying something dismissive and awful, and saying "why can't you be nice?" while creating a panic over a problem that does not exist for you? No. Just don't.
if your talking to me I have nothing to apologize for also think you for explaining how you feel
though I wish you could have said it a little nicer I think I understand your afraid they won't put the
things you want in game because people are asking for toggles if we get them in game from the start with the pronouns
then the people that want it removed will have nothing to say we can tell them to turn it off if they have an issue with it
also I don't think people asking for a toggle will hurt it making it in to the game honestly I want toggles for everything
because I don't want everything I like in game to be taken away because someone thought it would be fun to try just to see if they could do it @Sindocat also the game means a lot to me to its my favorite game but I still don't think you should get so upset
not because I think its wrong because I do it to sometimes but because you might have a stroke you cant fight injustice if your dead
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
I suspected that... that makes me wonder how much text that would need to be completely rewritten to work with 18 languages.
I am not an expert in this area, but I will give my opinion anyway: The answer is somewhere between a staggering amount and almost all of it. It would have to be done in multiple languages, all with their own grammar rules.
It is also possible that varying trade policies, which are influenced by varying political views, could come into play. For example: France is very protective of its language, and treasures it for its precision. The French Academy, which is tasked with guarding the language, mainly from English influences, recently came out against gender neutral language being used within the educational system, or within any learning of the French language. If I understand correctly, gender neutral language is now banned in classrooms. So while the subjects/verbs/adjectives could be changed in game as per the Italian language example, it is not out of the question to wonder if the French would allow the sale of a game, aimed at teenagers, that violates their language rules. But that could depend on which political party holds power at the time, and how angry they are at American companies for influencing language within the French youth culture.
As I said, I am not an expert in this area. I know a little bit. So take my opinion as just that, an opinion. And my opinion is that this could be much more troublesome an affair than some people think.
And that's why I think people need to think alot more critically about the position the dev team is in. This goes well beyond just yelling on Twitter over and over on gender neutral terminology inclusion. You cant just drop the English word "they" in someone's game where their language has no rules in place for it and call it a day. That's not how this works. The game shouldnt be catering to English speaking players.
We need to be realistic about this. This isnt something that is going to occur in an update a month or two from now. I doubt we'd get anything from this a year from now. We probably wont get anything about this for a long long time. Changing language as a whole is a whole lot trickier than alot of us think it is, especially if we've never studied a different language.
Rewriting all text completely in the base game and in all the packs for 18 languages will require a massive amount of time and effort. I think this is asking for too much.
If this forum did not have moderators, it would be just like some of the malicious twitter and YouTube comments. Thank goodness they have rules and moderators to keep things somewhat civil.
True, even if the moderators can be a little too over the top at times, I appreciate the work they do and do not envy their job.
Give our Vampires back their fangs!!! Reverse the Nerf!!! Occult simmers should not be shoved aside for the "realism players"! It's time Occult lovers/players started to demand equal treatment. #JusticeForOccults
I have no idea how they are going to do it though.
Maybe they'll add it to the current CAS options? That'd seem like the easiest idea and would be done on per-sim basis rather than global, which would make little sense.
Probably, I just wonder how much the game needs to be updated in order to support it. There is probably a lot of code in the game that relies on a sim being either a {M0.him} or {F0.her} as it is defined in the game code.
A mod handles it fine, so I'm guessing, so could they.
Racism is EVERYONE's fight #BLM #StopAsianHate
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
I'm worried about how it would come across in text like if you were saying they the group but also had to
talk about what the gender neutral sim was doing in the group but the sim is also called they
surly they wouldn't call the sim it would they
It's actually easy in real life, to determine whether "they" refers to a group or an individual, from context, i.e., "Hey look! Someone left their wallet!" or "Did you find out from Kai what they wanted on their pizza?" so it's not nearly the stumbling block in practice, that it might appear to be.
Racism is EVERYONE's fight #BLM #StopAsianHate
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
There is a reason why these threads exist and this has nothing to do with folks being against inclusion. Believe me, it’s not. Nobody is harassing anybody.
I can sense a general nervousness among players regarding gameplay features getting nerfed because there are groups of simmers constantly calling for changes to be made due to political reasons, ethical reason or downright selfish reasons because the game isn’t exactly how they want to play it.
Maxis says: “we listen”, “we hear you” which is fantastic, however, often their “listening” results in making split second decisions that only benefits one group of very loud players without consulting others who also offer very valuable arguments. Time and again the latter is not being listened to because the “issue” needs to be resolved ASAP just to get the complaining group to shut up and make the company look all snazzy again.
The company’s solution: do exactly what that groups asks for (because in all fairness we don’t want to deal with them any longer) and let’s get rid of this and that feature.
Everything gets nerfed these days: traits, occults, you name it, there will be very little left of the game and the original spirit of The Sims if this trend continues.
Therefore it is not at all surprising that the moment a group calls for changes to be made to this game (it could be any group: LGTBQ, a religious group, just some random family of gnomes, it makes no difference) and the company acknowledges that call for change, part of the community will get jumpy and nervous and starts to wonder how these changes will be implemented and impact the game if they are indeed being made. That part of the community will share their concerns and offer solutions and beg the company for options (BUTTONS! TOGGLES!) because the company hasn’t been that great with options in the past.
It’s not about NOT wanting options for all gender identities or anyone who wants themselves represented in game. It’s about wanting options for EVERYONE, simply to stop this nerfing trend.
To my eyes this discussion is mainly about ”How non-binary options could be tecnically and language wise implemented to the game and what should be taken in to account” and I agree, it’s an important discussion, as there is multiple ways it could be done, some maybe better than others, for all players. I guess this is what the Gurus are doing too at the moment, evaluating what kind of possibilities there is to bring it to the game. And I think they said it will be a long journey and they want to make it right. To me it didn’t sound like rushed desicions or instant nerfing of all genders in the game. Soooo maybe some people should hold their horses with instant fear of ”everything I like in game to be taken away” or ”sudden overrun by non-binary sims in my game” as some just stated above. Without the panic the points would come across better, I guess.
Also I want to point that in this same thread co-exists discussion about ”Should these options be added to the game at all?”. There are comments that state that this issue is not important, it’s pointless, that they don’t want it to ruin _their_ game. There is also people saying it shouldn’t be done or even evaluated, because it might be complicated, hard and take the resources of the team. Too much to even ask. These kind of comments are giving me an impressions that some here are against inclusion, or at least can't see but their own perspective. This is part of a discussion about non-binary people's right to exist in our game – a right they don’t have at the moment, never had, since one have to choose if your sim is either male or female, he or she. So, is it really too much to even ask, to have the same opportunity than binary people have always had? I think the least the team can do is to properly evaluate and investigate the opportunities and resources, without others in the community going all... jumpy and nervous.
(And this is not pointed personally to you, Captain_NXR7, just wanted to mention :P)
Pansexual and Asexual are sexual orientations, not gender identities. You can sort if simulate Asexual with the "unflirty" trait and there is a reward store thing that allows you to have multiple partners without anyone being jealous so pansexual can be created with that. But generally speaking the game doesn't allow you to select a sexual orientation. It learns it via the types of romantic interactions the player initiates for that sim.
I have a simple question because I am but a simple man...He/Him/Dude or IT on days when I look like a clown.
If gender neutral was to be added aren’t there other gender identities that need to be added? Or how should I see this? How does this work? Should I not call it gender identity?
You have to forgive me but googling anything gender related these days confuses me.
I understand folks want to be represented ‘n all, but from a developers point of view I can imagine that trying to implement different gender identities and different pronouns and make it work for everybody (without offending anyone) would be a complete and utter nightmare!
Which genders should be included, or is it only the additional one (gender neutral) and then everybody will be happy?
What if this worked like story progression? With the tick the game replaces text to show gender neutral. If you don’t check it the game runs as is. I don’t know if that’s too simple as I’m not a computer programmer. It was just a thought.
@CAPTAIN_NXR7 I think all people are asking for is the option to choose your pronouns in CAS just like you can choose if you are feminine/masculine pee sitting down or standing up/can get pregnant or can impregnate - those were all added to allow people to build transgender or non gender conforming sims. there would simply be another box where you select he/him, she/her or they/them so that in the few places they use pronouns in the game that choice would be displayed.
At most you, if you don't use the feature yourself, might run across a NPC who is referred to as "they"
I'm worried about how it would come across in text like if you were saying they the group but also had to
talk about what the gender neutral sim was doing in the group but the sim is also called they
surly they wouldn't call the sim it would they
@comicsforlife If you are a native english speaker you should be able to us context to figure that out. But also, the sim's rarely if ever refers to more than one sim at a time in a pop up and they always provide the icon picture of the sim they are talking about. But in cases where it might be confusing a name can always be used, but like you would for avoid confusion in a sentence like this. "They all went to the beach" Bob has a great time, Steven did not." You wouldn't say, "They all went to the beach. He had a good time and he did not." If you started out talking about a group of people you would never use a pronoun unless it applied to all of them as in "They went to the beach. They had a good time." They applies to the whole group. You only use a pronoun when the subject of the pronoun is clear. "Cindy went to the beach. They had a good time." Cindy and her family went to the beach. Cindy had a great time"
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
There is a reason why these threads exist and this has nothing to do with folks being against inclusion. Believe me, it’s not. Nobody is harassing anybody.
I can sense a general nervousness among players regarding gameplay features getting nerfed because there are groups of simmers constantly calling for changes to be made due to political reasons, ethical reason or downright selfish reasons because the game isn’t exactly how they want to play it.
Maxis says: “we listen”, “we hear you” which is fantastic, however, often their “listening” results in making split second decisions that only benefits one group of very loud players without consulting others who also offer very valuable arguments. Time and again the latter is not being listened to because the “issue” needs to be resolved ASAP just to get the complaining group to shut up and make the company look all snazzy again.
The company’s solution: do exactly what that groups asks for (because in all fairness we don’t want to deal with them any longer) and let’s get rid of this and that feature.
Everything gets nerfed these days: traits, occults, you name it, there will be very little left of the game and the original spirit of The Sims if this trend continues.
Therefore it is not at all surprising that the moment a group calls for changes to be made to this game (it could be any group: LGTBQ, a religious group, just some random family of gnomes, it makes no difference) and the company acknowledges that call for change, part of the community will get jumpy and nervous and starts to wonder how these changes will be implemented and impact the game if they are indeed being made. That part of the community will share their concerns and offer solutions and beg the company for options (BUTTONS! TOGGLES!) because the company hasn’t been that great with options in the past.
It’s not about NOT wanting options for all gender identities or anyone who wants themselves represented in game. It’s about wanting options for EVERYONE, simply to stop this nerfing trend.
Very well said! 👏
I can't think of a single person on here who has said they don't want the inclusion of gender neutral pronouns. That is not what the whole "give us toggles" or "don't change all text in the game" is about.
We want inclusion just as much as the next person, but we don't want the inclusion made at the expense of others. Which is exactly what will happen if options are not given.
And I think you're probably right about people being nervous about this potential change as a result of everything that has already been nerfed or changed for the sake of one group who is unhappy with how things are. Because lets be honest, the company hasn't had a good track record of making changes in a way that's reasonable and offers the player options. When something gets changed, it ends up being to the exteme (ie vampires almost never break in anymore.) And knowing how this has been handled in the past would (rightfully, in my opinion) make us nervous.
A lot of people will argue that vampires being nerfed isn't a fair comparison, but like you said @CAPTAIN_NXR7 it really isn't that much of a difference. Just because this is something that will affect LGBTQA+ people whereas the vampires affected people who play occults (regardless of their gender identity) shouldn't matter.
Take the fact that this about LGBTQA+ inclusion out of the equation, and we're literally dealing with a case of something potentially being changed that we (the players) have no say in how it's implemented. Unless we make our voices heard before it happens.
No, nobody knows exactly when these potential changes will take place, but the fact that it was acknowledged in the last livestream means (to me anyway) that it may not be as far off as people think.
I found the livestream was unclear how they were going to tackle it. They are looking at making some changes that is clear or they wouldn’t have mentioned their on a journey with this topic, so they want to end up somewhere with it. Something down the line will be added or changed. Why make a point of saying it if it’s going ultimately going nowhere?
This is exactly my feelings too. I don't think the gurus brought this up in the livestream just to waste time or for the heck of it, but because this is something they do plan on looking into and implementing later down the road. So while your thread intially was referencing the stream, I still think this is an issue that requires discussion.
And nothing has ever suggested that would not be maintained... Until this thread came along to suggest it.
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier ....
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
I agree that's not what they said in the livestream, however, they most likely brought that question up during the livestream because that petition which suggest "or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged" have been shared by several GameChangers on twitter and have gotten a lot of responses from the sims community on twitter.
We must be realistic about this, this could lead to them making changes that a lot of people might not agree with. Talking about inclusion and representation is all well and good, but you also have to be prepared to discuss with people and find compromises.
And this is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
I (and probably most others) are all fine and dandy with representation for non-binary people, just not at the expense of excluding cis-gendered people. Otherwise, what the non-binary players are experiencing right now, with feeling under represented in their own game will end of making those of us who are cis-gendered feel the same way they are right now.
It's not inclusion if you're making changes at the expense of others.
And by giving us options to choose how our sims are referred to in-game is providing inclusion in the right way.
I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the comments from those who speak languages where you can't just plug in a pronoun here or there. It's really easy for English speakers to forget the complexities of other languages (or never to learn them in the first place) and I include myself in that statement.
And then, there's getting to know how non-binary people prefer to identify themselves in all those other languages. I'm starting to understand why it's going to take a while to do it right.
Comments
Except the one part of the petition that was shared here earlier does suggest just that. That it should be changed rather than maintained.
"or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged"
And this is what so many people on this thread have a problem with.
Removing gendered language from the game is not being inclusive. It's just excluding a different group of people.
I am not an expert in this area, but I will give my opinion anyway: The answer is somewhere between a staggering amount and almost all of it. It would have to be done in multiple languages, all with their own grammar rules.
It is also possible that varying trade policies, which are influenced by varying political views, could come into play. For example: France is very protective of its language, and treasures it for its precision. The French Academy, which is tasked with guarding the language, mainly from English influences, recently came out against gender neutral language being used within the educational system, or within any learning of the French language. If I understand correctly, gender neutral language is now banned in classrooms. So while the subjects/verbs/adjectives could be changed in game as per the Italian language example, it is not out of the question to wonder if the French would allow the sale of a game, aimed at teenagers, that violates their language rules. But that could depend on which political party holds power at the time, and how angry they are at American companies for influencing language within the French youth culture.
As I said, I am not an expert in this area. I know a little bit. So take my opinion as just that, an opinion. And my opinion is that this could be much more troublesome an affair than some people think.
But, like examples of Italy and France here, is the pronouns really that important to use such a big efforts (I assume it means money) , for that only, instead than fixing the bugs??
Sea may rise, sky may fall, My love will never die..
My heart, my heart, My drowning heart, Oh all the tears I've cried
Oh I may weep forevermore, My love will never die..
Is NOT what the livestream was addressing. This thread referenced the livestream comment, which indicated nothing of the kind.
Outrage for days. Y'all really are getting obvious in your need to push back against actual inclusion and it is incredibly sad to see in a community that used to be free of that kind of harassment.
I'm just mentioning where the idea that the choice not being maintained came from. And nobody is harassing anyone or trying to push back inclusion. We're just empathizing that there needs to be a choice in which pronouns are used to refer to our sims.
And that's why I think people need to think alot more critically about the position the dev team is in. This goes well beyond just yelling on Twitter over and over on gender neutral terminology inclusion. You cant just drop the English word "they" in someone's game where their language has no rules in place for it and call it a day. That's not how this works. The game shouldnt be catering to English speaking players.
We need to be realistic about this. This isnt something that is going to occur in an update a month or two from now. I doubt we'd get anything from this a year from now. We probably wont get anything about this for a long long time. Changing language as a whole is a whole lot trickier than alot of us think it is, especially if we've never studied a different language.
why do you feel like everyone is harassing people ?
please try to calm down its not good for your health to get to
angry I'm sure most people on forum don't want to hurt anyone
I can't say no one because there always a chance a warped person
could be online but everyone here seems fine
Well said! 😎👍. It’s important to discuss things. Thank you!
The livestream wasn’t clear how they were going to implement this, they said something about it being a journey rather than a destination. I wouldn’t want them to replace all the text either.
No one is taking your gender away. It's always been in game. The team isn't even sure how they could do it, and you all are freaking out and throwing a "not unless they let me TURN IT OFF in MY GAME!" hissy fit over an announcement that only said "we're looking at this, and it's something to take time with because it is complicated."
Which means that you go on having the game you have, and those to whom these changes would be affirming, and freeing, get nothing. And you say no one's being attacked? No - you need to check your privilege, and apologize. Saying something dismissive and awful, and saying "why can't you be nice?" while creating a panic over a problem that does not exist for you? No. Just don't.
There is a reason why these threads exist and this has nothing to do with folks being against inclusion. Believe me, it’s not. Nobody is harassing anybody.
I can sense a general nervousness among players regarding gameplay features getting nerfed because there are groups of simmers constantly calling for changes to be made due to political reasons, ethical reason or downright selfish reasons because the game isn’t exactly how they want to play it.
Maxis says: “we listen”, “we hear you” which is fantastic, however, often their “listening” results in making split second decisions that only benefits one group of very loud players without consulting others who also offer very valuable arguments. Time and again the latter is not being listened to because the “issue” needs to be resolved ASAP just to get the complaining group to shut up and make the company look all snazzy again.
The company’s solution: do exactly what that groups asks for (because in all fairness we don’t want to deal with them any longer) and let’s get rid of this and that feature.
Everything gets nerfed these days: traits, occults, you name it, there will be very little left of the game and the original spirit of The Sims if this trend continues.
Therefore it is not at all surprising that the moment a group calls for changes to be made to this game (it could be any group: LGTBQ, a religious group, just some random family of gnomes, it makes no difference) and the company acknowledges that call for change, part of the community will get jumpy and nervous and starts to wonder how these changes will be implemented and impact the game if they are indeed being made. That part of the community will share their concerns and offer solutions and beg the company for options (BUTTONS! TOGGLES!) because the company hasn’t been that great with options in the past.
It’s not about NOT wanting options for all gender identities or anyone who wants themselves represented in game. It’s about wanting options for EVERYONE, simply to stop this nerfing trend.
Exactly. Well said. 😎👍. Buttons and/or toggles is all I asked for.
I never understood why they nerfed so much stuff. Poor Vlad now unable to pester my Sims. I only see him now about once a week trying to get inside a house.
I found the livestream was unclear how they were going to tackle it. They are looking at making some changes that is clear or they wouldn’t have mentioned their on a journey with this topic, so they want to end up somewhere with it. Something down the line will be added or changed. Why make a point of saying it if it’s going ultimately going nowhere?
I agree that's not what they said in the livestream, however, they most likely brought that question up during the livestream because that petition which suggest "or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged" have been shared by several GameChangers on twitter and have gotten a lot of responses from the sims community on twitter.
We must be realistic about this, this could lead to them making changes that a lot of people might not agree with. Talking about inclusion and representation is all well and good, but you also have to be prepared to discuss with people and find compromises.
if your talking to me I have nothing to apologize for also think you for explaining how you feel
though I wish you could have said it a little nicer I think I understand your afraid they won't put the
things you want in game because people are asking for toggles if we get them in game from the start with the pronouns
then the people that want it removed will have nothing to say we can tell them to turn it off if they have an issue with it
also I don't think people asking for a toggle will hurt it making it in to the game honestly I want toggles for everything
because I don't want everything I like in game to be taken away because someone thought it would be fun to try just to see if they could do it
@Sindocat also the game means a lot to me to its my favorite game but I still don't think you should get so upset
not because I think its wrong because I do it to sometimes but because you might have a stroke you cant fight injustice if your dead
Rewriting all text completely in the base game and in all the packs for 18 languages will require a massive amount of time and effort. I think this is asking for too much.
True, even if the moderators can be a little too over the top at times, I appreciate the work they do and do not envy their job.
A mod handles it fine, so I'm guessing, so could they.
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
It's actually easy in real life, to determine whether "they" refers to a group or an individual, from context, i.e., "Hey look! Someone left their wallet!" or "Did you find out from Kai what they wanted on their pizza?" so it's not nearly the stumbling block in practice, that it might appear to be.
Let's make Liberty and Justice For All a reality.
To my eyes this discussion is mainly about ”How non-binary options could be tecnically and language wise implemented to the game and what should be taken in to account” and I agree, it’s an important discussion, as there is multiple ways it could be done, some maybe better than others, for all players. I guess this is what the Gurus are doing too at the moment, evaluating what kind of possibilities there is to bring it to the game. And I think they said it will be a long journey and they want to make it right. To me it didn’t sound like rushed desicions or instant nerfing of all genders in the game. Soooo maybe some people should hold their horses with instant fear of ”everything I like in game to be taken away” or ”sudden overrun by non-binary sims in my game” as some just stated above. Without the panic the points would come across better, I guess.
Also I want to point that in this same thread co-exists discussion about ”Should these options be added to the game at all?”. There are comments that state that this issue is not important, it’s pointless, that they don’t want it to ruin _their_ game. There is also people saying it shouldn’t be done or even evaluated, because it might be complicated, hard and take the resources of the team. Too much to even ask. These kind of comments are giving me an impressions that some here are against inclusion, or at least can't see but their own perspective. This is part of a discussion about non-binary people's right to exist in our game – a right they don’t have at the moment, never had, since one have to choose if your sim is either male or female, he or she. So, is it really too much to even ask, to have the same opportunity than binary people have always had? I think the least the team can do is to properly evaluate and investigate the opportunities and resources, without others in the community going all... jumpy and nervous.
(And this is not pointed personally to you, Captain_NXR7, just wanted to mention :P)
Pansexual and Asexual are sexual orientations, not gender identities. You can sort if simulate Asexual with the "unflirty" trait and there is a reward store thing that allows you to have multiple partners without anyone being jealous so pansexual can be created with that. But generally speaking the game doesn't allow you to select a sexual orientation. It learns it via the types of romantic interactions the player initiates for that sim.
@CAPTAIN_NXR7 I think all people are asking for is the option to choose your pronouns in CAS just like you can choose if you are feminine/masculine pee sitting down or standing up/can get pregnant or can impregnate - those were all added to allow people to build transgender or non gender conforming sims. there would simply be another box where you select he/him, she/her or they/them so that in the few places they use pronouns in the game that choice would be displayed.
At most you, if you don't use the feature yourself, might run across a NPC who is referred to as "they"
@comicsforlife If you are a native english speaker you should be able to us context to figure that out. But also, the sim's rarely if ever refers to more than one sim at a time in a pop up and they always provide the icon picture of the sim they are talking about. But in cases where it might be confusing a name can always be used, but like you would for avoid confusion in a sentence like this. "They all went to the beach" Bob has a great time, Steven did not." You wouldn't say, "They all went to the beach. He had a good time and he did not." If you started out talking about a group of people you would never use a pronoun unless it applied to all of them as in "They went to the beach. They had a good time." They applies to the whole group. You only use a pronoun when the subject of the pronoun is clear. "Cindy went to the beach. They had a good time." Cindy and her family went to the beach. Cindy had a great time"
Very well said! 👏
I can't think of a single person on here who has said they don't want the inclusion of gender neutral pronouns. That is not what the whole "give us toggles" or "don't change all text in the game" is about.
We want inclusion just as much as the next person, but we don't want the inclusion made at the expense of others. Which is exactly what will happen if options are not given.
And I think you're probably right about people being nervous about this potential change as a result of everything that has already been nerfed or changed for the sake of one group who is unhappy with how things are. Because lets be honest, the company hasn't had a good track record of making changes in a way that's reasonable and offers the player options. When something gets changed, it ends up being to the exteme (ie vampires almost never break in anymore.) And knowing how this has been handled in the past would (rightfully, in my opinion) make us nervous.
A lot of people will argue that vampires being nerfed isn't a fair comparison, but like you said @CAPTAIN_NXR7 it really isn't that much of a difference. Just because this is something that will affect LGBTQA+ people whereas the vampires affected people who play occults (regardless of their gender identity) shouldn't matter.
Take the fact that this about LGBTQA+ inclusion out of the equation, and we're literally dealing with a case of something potentially being changed that we (the players) have no say in how it's implemented. Unless we make our voices heard before it happens.
No, nobody knows exactly when these potential changes will take place, but the fact that it was acknowledged in the last livestream means (to me anyway) that it may not be as far off as people think.
Bottom line is, we just want choices or options
This is exactly my feelings too. I don't think the gurus brought this up in the livestream just to waste time or for the heck of it, but because this is something they do plan on looking into and implementing later down the road. So while your thread intially was referencing the stream, I still think this is an issue that requires discussion.
And this is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
I (and probably most others) are all fine and dandy with representation for non-binary people, just not at the expense of excluding cis-gendered people. Otherwise, what the non-binary players are experiencing right now, with feeling under represented in their own game will end of making those of us who are cis-gendered feel the same way they are right now.
It's not inclusion if you're making changes at the expense of others.
And by giving us options to choose how our sims are referred to in-game is providing inclusion in the right way.
And then, there's getting to know how non-binary people prefer to identify themselves in all those other languages. I'm starting to understand why it's going to take a while to do it right.