"“Wheat, rice, corn. Most vegans eat these things. The first impact of mass cultivation is deforestation: we force nature out to make room for crops,” Claudio goes on. His point is simple: by eating just vegetables, vegans and vegetarians are placing vegetables over animal life, because in order to support the demand for crops, landowners have to push out the wildlife. As such, wildlife is suffering and dying.
“If you eat meat, you kill animals,” Claudio says, “but you also kill them by eating plants.”"
@Simburian First of all this is not the place to post something like this since we are only talking about the Sims.
Second, you do realize that wheat, rice, corn and most importantly soy is what we feed animals to get them fat so we get more meat. More than 95% of the soy produce on earth is fed to animals, while the rest 4-5% is consumed by humans.
Animals don't eat grass. We destroy a huge part of the planet just to plant more food for animals, so we can breed more, feed more and sell more meat. You can research it online.
Just think of it logically, for example hummus is a food that is bought by a quarter of all Americans regularly. More often than corn or tofu. Yet garbanzo beans are not destroying the planet. So the reason why corn and soy production are negatively impacting the planet is because we have to produce so much, because we have to overfeed the millions of animals we artificially breed.
PS: I want to point out to everyone who eats meat, I'm not judging you, I'm judging the system. The way the meat industry breeds meat and sells it for such low prices is the problem here. I'm not advocating for people to stop eating it. I'm advocating for the industry to change.
@SimmerGeorge We differ then. I prefer to believe someone who is an expert on the subject but the OP posted the question and I answered it and that's what I believe.
@SimmerGeorge We differ then. I prefer to believe someone who is an expert on the subject but the OP posted the question and I answered it and that's what I believe.
@Simburian The OP posted a question about if we would like to see meat production in the Sims 4 or not, not if we think vegans are destroying the planet.
And yeah he might be an expert there are dozen other experts who say the opposite. And again you can use your own logic to think if the environmental impact is coming from human consumption or from the meat industry. If it does come from humans then why is it that all other things humans consume aren't causing environmental issues but it's just the ones that the meat industry is also using.
And if you say that too much consumption of these products is not good for the environment then can it be that too much meat consumption might similarly be bad for the environment? You can't say eating rice is bad for the environment but eating meat and dairty with almost every meal (like a lot of people do) isn't.
Some questions don't need an expert to be answered, we can answer them ourselves.
@SimmerGeorge. With respect, I think you need to do a little more research as I have done because of my disease. I'm a Coeliac and wheat, barley and rye are not for me but that's my last comment on the matter.
@SimmerGeorge. With respect, I think you need to do a little more research as I have done because of my disease. I'm a Coeliac and wheat, barley and rye are not for me but that's my last comment on the matter.
@Simburian I don't understand how research on a condition like celiac leads to to the conclusion that vegans are destroying the planet. If you can't eat certain foods and have to rely on meat that's fine but saying how terrible a vegan diet is for the planet isn't really correlating imo.
I didn't vote cause they have not said it's a farming pack. It's a countryside pack is what I am getting. It could be some farming but full blown farming, I don't believe will happen. I guess we'll see Thursday. I know everyone will complain though, no matter what.
Would I be *fine* without it? Yes, I've been so far. Would I mind if they put it in? Not at all. It should be a simple procedure to do, just interact with cattle, choose either sell for money or meat (or donate the animal for free if you're a friendly neighbourhood farmer) and then the animal in question will walk off the lot. Another helpful farmer will come by and deliver the goods in your mailbox.
I honestly don't see any real reason to exclude it, though. Those who doesn't want to procure meat wouldn't be forced. Should we remove fishing for anyone who doesn't want to see fishes getting caught and put on a wall? Remove gardening for anyone who believes plants should be left alone?
While I am not vegan, I understand it as not taking anything from an animal that the animal won't freely give, or doing anything that will cause harm to the animal. This means that shaving a sheep's wool is acceptable because not doing so causes damage to the animal. So since they have said something along the lines of "befriend animals" I am thinking it might be something along those lines - the better a friend you are with an animal (chicken, for example) the better quality product the animal produces and you harvest.
FYI, now known as insomniacsims on Simblr and Origin; profile picture is an old makeover of Zoe Patel
Every now and then you’ll see a runaway sheep in the news that humans had to save. Their wool gets overgrown and matted to the point where it is a danger to them. They need us to shear them just as much as we need their wool. It would be cruel not to shear them.
I wouldn’t want to keep farm animals unless there was some animal product you could get from them, so I’d be satisfied with getting eggs, milk or wool, at the very least. If they were just there to look cute I wouldn’t bother with them.
I don't want harmful content like this in a game like the sims.. having a bond with an animal and then later eat it or anything of it sounds kinda sick to me personally
I don't want harmful content like this in a game like the sims.. having a bond with an animal and then later eat it or anything of it sounds kinda sick to me personally
Every now and then you’ll see a runaway sheep in the news that humans had to save. Their wool gets overgrown and matted to the point where it is a danger to them. They need us to shear them just as much as we need their wool. It would be cruel not to shear them.
@babajayne Yes another terrible effect of humans interfering with nature and causing issues. Before humans started breeding sheep artificially to satisfy their needs, sheep grew a lot less wool and were able to shed it, much like dogs. This is why primitive sheep don't have these issues. But the domestic sheep have evolved in a way, by artificial breeding, that their wool grows a lot and they aren't able to shed it.
Nature does everything right, it's the humans' that ruined these sheep genes and made them suffer.
I'm a vegan, so this is a topic that connects with values I have. This is just my thoughts.
An accurate representaion isn't suitable for the game's age rating. So the alternative is an animation where the animal vanishes or something else happens out of sight. My concern is that we already live in a world where we push this out of sight, and where the idea animal farming is some kind of happy petting zoo is already heavily promoted in advertising. Although following this approach would keep the game age rating friendly, it would still have a downside in terms of accuracy.
I realise the sims isn't all about accuracy, we have vampires and aliens. etc., but the distinction here is misrepresenting something with ethical issues that's happening in the real world. Misrepresentations affect everyone who is exposed to them on some level. They can be the difference between asking critical questions or carrying on without looking again.
Even the inclusion of eggs and milk, which many people think of as harmless animal products raises issues. For example cows only produce milk for a while after having a calf, and if you're taking the milk to eat then you have to deal with what happens to the calf that has no food now. The reality isn't fun gameplay. However, if the game represents cows as constantly creating lots of milk for humans to use without any ethical issues, it has reinforced a popular misunderstanding.
Even the inclusion of eggs and milk, which many people think of as harmless animal products raises issues.
I swear I'm not trolling, just curious what the issue is with eggs? Hens will lay unfertilized eggs even if there's no rooster for miles, and some will sit on those eggs trying to hatch them until they start to rot - starving themselves in the process. So I'm failing to see what harm there is in collecting them. I can understand the issue with fertilized eggs, and it's perfectly fine if people don't want to consume animal products at all in any form. Just unclear about the issue with unfertilized eggs.
Edit - to be clear, I'm talking about collecting eggs on small farms/from backyard coops, not commercial factories where the hens basically can do nothing but sit on a nest and eat food as it goes by on a conveyor belt.
Even the inclusion of eggs and milk, which many people think of as harmless animal products raises issues.
I swear I'm not trolling, just curious what the issue is with eggs? Hens will lay unfertilized eggs even if there's no rooster for miles, and some will sit on those eggs trying to hatch them until they start to rot - starving themselves in the process. So I'm failing to see what harm there is in collecting them. I can understand the issue with fertilized eggs, and it's perfectly fine if people don't want to consume animal products at all in any form. Just unclear about the issue with unfertilized eggs.
Edit - to be clear, I'm talking about collecting eggs on small farms/from backyard coops, not commercial factories where the hens basically can do nothing but sit on a nest and eat food as it goes by on a conveyor belt.
@DaWaterRat The industry is mainly the issue with eggs. Just the sick chickens and the male chicks that are being shredded right after being born. It's crazy, they experience life for one moment and then the next one they die in the most brutal way.
But the way the eggs are being produced in the game has nothing wrong. I know a lot of vegans who eat eggs because they know someone with chickens at his home. But a lot of vegans don't because most of the eggs do come from these brutal companies.
Unlike with milk, I see no issue on how the eggs are produced in the Sims 4. It's the ideal way and I wish we could have eggs like these in real life.
There is a certain point where fantasy should override realism in games like the Sims. We have a younger audience than we did seven years ago, and with all the violence people of all cultures are dealing with, playing The Sims is supposed to be an escape from RL, not a constant reminder of what we are trying to escape. The meat wall from EL is downright creepy. But if it's realism some players are looking for, you can always sell the cow, tack up the meat wall and pretend it's actual beef. It's a sad but true fact humans are meat eaters. But do I want to see Sim creatures butchered? No!! I don't need to see that. No doubt a mod creator will make it possible if one is inclined to befriend farm animals then kill them. So use a mod if killing an animal makes your game more 'realistic' if that's how you roll. But I don't need or want that level of realism in my game. I'd much rather see the teams fix the game than spend time and resources on something like this.
Even the inclusion of eggs and milk, which many people think of as harmless animal products raises issues.
I swear I'm not trolling, just curious what the issue is with eggs? Hens will lay unfertilized eggs even if there's no rooster for miles, and some will sit on those eggs trying to hatch them until they start to rot - starving themselves in the process. So I'm failing to see what harm there is in collecting them. I can understand the issue with fertilized eggs, and it's perfectly fine if people don't want to consume animal products at all in any form. Just unclear about the issue with unfertilized eggs.
Edit - to be clear, I'm talking about collecting eggs on small farms/from backyard coops, not commercial factories where the hens basically can do nothing but sit on a nest and eat food as it goes by on a conveyor belt.
That's a totally fair question. Commercial egg production is the worst, but backyard hens have ethical issues too.
For a start, where are they coming from? Typically hens come from breeders - large or small - who dispose of the male chicks. Statistically half the chicks hatched are male, so for every backyard hen out there, there was also a male chick, but few if any people keep roosters.
There's also the choice of breed. Egg laying hens have been selectively bred to produce vastly more eggs than their wild ancestors. Or even recent domesticated ancestors. The difference is wild ones lay 10-20 a year, while domesticated ones lay 200-300 a year. It's bad for their health, and taking their eggs can encourage them to lay even more. If you want to promote responsible animal breeding, most sources of hens are out.
You could find a rescue hen, but these are typically the older ones that are no longer considered profitable. I hear very mixed things from people who keep rescue hens about how long they live and how many eggs they make. They've been abused in many cases and expectations should be limited. Basically, I wouldn't adopt one with the eggs in mind. It's sad to hear how many people kill them a year or two after adopting them when they're fully spent or just haven't lived up to their expectations. Most people treat them as lower on the animal heirachy than a dog or cat. Not because they matter less in any objective way, but because we tend to view them as serving our needs by making eggs.
We are not so cruel as nature can be. Brambles have thorns and not only to protect themselves but to catch animals, who die and provide food via the soil when they decay. Farmers have to check on and release many of their stock and it's been that way since Abraham found a ram caught in a thicket. Sorry.
@SimmerGeorge. With respect, I think you need to do a little more research as I have done because of my disease. I'm a Coeliac and wheat, barley and rye are not for me but that's my last comment on the matter.
@Simburian I don't understand how research on a condition like celiac leads to to the conclusion that vegans are destroying the planet. If you can't eat certain foods and have to rely on meat that's fine but saying how terrible a vegan diet is for the planet isn't really correlating imo.
I wouldn’t doubt that her in depth search led her to articles on meat and plants. Like Dewaterrat shared, I have a daughter that also gets headaches when her protein goes too low, not only does she get the headaches but they cause her such bad nausea that she usually vomits. and she has learned grabbing a burrito with meat and rice will alleviate the problem when she encounters it. That being said……
I want farmers to be able to raise cattle because it is a job to many people, and I have known people who own their own cattle and chicken to eat, and they also sell some of the meat. It’s just part of the realism in the game to me, just like vegetarianism, I rarely play with Occults And I don’t go around killing my sims. And though I don’t go around killing my sims, it doesn’t bother me that some do, I think it’s too bad that eating meat bothers people who don’t eat it. Though I have cut down on meat in the last several years, it is still a part of a force balanced diet and so do many of my sims. I also know people who hunt deer and quail too……
@SimmerGeorge. With respect, I think you need to do a little more research as I have done because of my disease. I'm a Coeliac and wheat, barley and rye are not for me but that's my last comment on the matter.
@Simburian I don't understand how research on a condition like celiac leads to to the conclusion that vegans are destroying the planet. If you can't eat certain foods and have to rely on meat that's fine but saying how terrible a vegan diet is for the planet isn't really correlating imo.
I wouldn’t doubt that her in depth search led her to articles on meat and plants. Like Dewaterrat shared, I have a daughter that also gets headaches when her protein goes too low, not only does she get the headaches but they cause her such bad nausea that she usually vomits. and she has learned grabbing a burrito with meat and rice will alleviate the problem when she encounters it. That being said……
I want farmers to be able to raise cattle because it is a job to many people, and I have known people who own their own cattle and chicken to eat, and they also sell some of the meat. It’s just part of the realism in the game to me, just like vegetarianism, I rarely play with Occults And I don’t go around killing my sims. And though I don’t go around killing my sims, it doesn’t bother me that some do, I think it’s too bad that eating meat bothers people who don’t eat it. Though I have cut down on meat in the last several years, it is still a part of a force balanced diet and so do many of my sims. I also know people who hunt deer and quail too……
@SheriSim57 So someone with celiac's (who is a person who cannot digest gluten btw) knows about the meat industry and agriculture for some reason? And assuming that these two things correlate why do you believe that vegans don't know as much, when basically their whole diet consists of plants.
Does "Vegans are destroying the planet, I have celiac's and I know" make any sense to you? There is almost 0 correlation between the two.
Like I said I have no problem with meat production in the game. I just have a problem with this misinformation that vegans are destroying the planet. And I don't think having celiac's makes you in any way qualified to make such an assumption.
Years ago, I lived in Texas with a then-boyfriend. His parents had a hen and a rooster on their property, but they were totally free and like pets, but also MEAN. I never got close to them because I was warned not too, and I was warned to NEVER touch the hen's eggs if I saw one. They liked to fly into the trees, (so obviously their wings were not clipped) and they could swoop on you at any time. She would lay her eggs anywhere she felt like it. Walking around the property was somewhere between survival horror and Easter egg hunt. BUT the eggs would attract snakes! Sometimes big ones. lol For many reasons, I'm glad I don't have to deal with any of that any more. I never had an encounter with those chickens, but I made it a point not to. I feel lucky for getting out of that, and I'm usually insanely good with animals. But I was afraid of those chickens. Well, everyone there really. Thanks for making me remember THAT regretful Expansion Pack of my life. 2/10 Would not recommend Backwoods Texas Living
Comments
@Simburian First of all this is not the place to post something like this since we are only talking about the Sims.
Second, you do realize that wheat, rice, corn and most importantly soy is what we feed animals to get them fat so we get more meat. More than 95% of the soy produce on earth is fed to animals, while the rest 4-5% is consumed by humans.
Animals don't eat grass. We destroy a huge part of the planet just to plant more food for animals, so we can breed more, feed more and sell more meat. You can research it online.
Just think of it logically, for example hummus is a food that is bought by a quarter of all Americans regularly. More often than corn or tofu. Yet garbanzo beans are not destroying the planet. So the reason why corn and soy production are negatively impacting the planet is because we have to produce so much, because we have to overfeed the millions of animals we artificially breed.
PS: I want to point out to everyone who eats meat, I'm not judging you, I'm judging the system. The way the meat industry breeds meat and sells it for such low prices is the problem here. I'm not advocating for people to stop eating it. I'm advocating for the industry to change.
@Simburian The OP posted a question about if we would like to see meat production in the Sims 4 or not, not if we think vegans are destroying the planet.
And yeah he might be an expert there are dozen other experts who say the opposite. And again you can use your own logic to think if the environmental impact is coming from human consumption or from the meat industry. If it does come from humans then why is it that all other things humans consume aren't causing environmental issues but it's just the ones that the meat industry is also using.
And if you say that too much consumption of these products is not good for the environment then can it be that too much meat consumption might similarly be bad for the environment? You can't say eating rice is bad for the environment but eating meat and dairty with almost every meal (like a lot of people do) isn't.
Some questions don't need an expert to be answered, we can answer them ourselves.
@Simburian I don't understand how research on a condition like celiac leads to to the conclusion that vegans are destroying the planet. If you can't eat certain foods and have to rely on meat that's fine but saying how terrible a vegan diet is for the planet isn't really correlating imo.
I honestly don't see any real reason to exclude it, though. Those who doesn't want to procure meat wouldn't be forced. Should we remove fishing for anyone who doesn't want to see fishes getting caught and put on a wall? Remove gardening for anyone who believes plants should be left alone? And my god, this struck close to home as far as migraine cures are concerned.
We want: Faeries, with a good ability tree, hopefully before summer 2024.
What do we want to get rid of: The holiday bug, the constant showering and the weed glitch.
I wouldn’t want to keep farm animals unless there was some animal product you could get from them, so I’d be satisfied with getting eggs, milk or wool, at the very least. If they were just there to look cute I wouldn’t bother with them.
It's less sick than slaughterhouses.
@babajayne Yes another terrible effect of humans interfering with nature and causing issues. Before humans started breeding sheep artificially to satisfy their needs, sheep grew a lot less wool and were able to shed it, much like dogs. This is why primitive sheep don't have these issues. But the domestic sheep have evolved in a way, by artificial breeding, that their wool grows a lot and they aren't able to shed it.
Nature does everything right, it's the humans' that ruined these sheep genes and made them suffer.
An accurate representaion isn't suitable for the game's age rating. So the alternative is an animation where the animal vanishes or something else happens out of sight. My concern is that we already live in a world where we push this out of sight, and where the idea animal farming is some kind of happy petting zoo is already heavily promoted in advertising. Although following this approach would keep the game age rating friendly, it would still have a downside in terms of accuracy.
I realise the sims isn't all about accuracy, we have vampires and aliens. etc., but the distinction here is misrepresenting something with ethical issues that's happening in the real world. Misrepresentations affect everyone who is exposed to them on some level. They can be the difference between asking critical questions or carrying on without looking again.
Even the inclusion of eggs and milk, which many people think of as harmless animal products raises issues. For example cows only produce milk for a while after having a calf, and if you're taking the milk to eat then you have to deal with what happens to the calf that has no food now. The reality isn't fun gameplay. However, if the game represents cows as constantly creating lots of milk for humans to use without any ethical issues, it has reinforced a popular misunderstanding.
I swear I'm not trolling, just curious what the issue is with eggs? Hens will lay unfertilized eggs even if there's no rooster for miles, and some will sit on those eggs trying to hatch them until they start to rot - starving themselves in the process. So I'm failing to see what harm there is in collecting them. I can understand the issue with fertilized eggs, and it's perfectly fine if people don't want to consume animal products at all in any form. Just unclear about the issue with unfertilized eggs.
Edit - to be clear, I'm talking about collecting eggs on small farms/from backyard coops, not commercial factories where the hens basically can do nothing but sit on a nest and eat food as it goes by on a conveyor belt.
@DaWaterRat The industry is mainly the issue with eggs. Just the sick chickens and the male chicks that are being shredded right after being born. It's crazy, they experience life for one moment and then the next one they die in the most brutal way.
But the way the eggs are being produced in the game has nothing wrong. I know a lot of vegans who eat eggs because they know someone with chickens at his home. But a lot of vegans don't because most of the eggs do come from these brutal companies.
Unlike with milk, I see no issue on how the eggs are produced in the Sims 4. It's the ideal way and I wish we could have eggs like these in real life.
That's a totally fair question. Commercial egg production is the worst, but backyard hens have ethical issues too.
For a start, where are they coming from? Typically hens come from breeders - large or small - who dispose of the male chicks. Statistically half the chicks hatched are male, so for every backyard hen out there, there was also a male chick, but few if any people keep roosters.
There's also the choice of breed. Egg laying hens have been selectively bred to produce vastly more eggs than their wild ancestors. Or even recent domesticated ancestors. The difference is wild ones lay 10-20 a year, while domesticated ones lay 200-300 a year. It's bad for their health, and taking their eggs can encourage them to lay even more. If you want to promote responsible animal breeding, most sources of hens are out.
You could find a rescue hen, but these are typically the older ones that are no longer considered profitable. I hear very mixed things from people who keep rescue hens about how long they live and how many eggs they make. They've been abused in many cases and expectations should be limited. Basically, I wouldn't adopt one with the eggs in mind. It's sad to hear how many people kill them a year or two after adopting them when they're fully spent or just haven't lived up to their expectations. Most people treat them as lower on the animal heirachy than a dog or cat. Not because they matter less in any objective way, but because we tend to view them as serving our needs by making eggs.
I wouldn’t doubt that her in depth search led her to articles on meat and plants. Like Dewaterrat shared, I have a daughter that also gets headaches when her protein goes too low, not only does she get the headaches but they cause her such bad nausea that she usually vomits. and she has learned grabbing a burrito with meat and rice will alleviate the problem when she encounters it. That being said……
I want farmers to be able to raise cattle because it is a job to many people, and I have known people who own their own cattle and chicken to eat, and they also sell some of the meat. It’s just part of the realism in the game to me, just like vegetarianism, I rarely play with Occults And I don’t go around killing my sims. And though I don’t go around killing my sims, it doesn’t bother me that some do, I think it’s too bad that eating meat bothers people who don’t eat it. Though I have cut down on meat in the last several years, it is still a part of a force balanced diet and so do many of my sims. I also know people who hunt deer and quail too……
@SheriSim57 So someone with celiac's (who is a person who cannot digest gluten btw) knows about the meat industry and agriculture for some reason? And assuming that these two things correlate why do you believe that vegans don't know as much, when basically their whole diet consists of plants.
Does "Vegans are destroying the planet, I have celiac's and I know" make any sense to you? There is almost 0 correlation between the two.
Like I said I have no problem with meat production in the game. I just have a problem with this misinformation that vegans are destroying the planet. And I don't think having celiac's makes you in any way qualified to make such an assumption.