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Discussion on recent SimGuru statements on Twitter

Comments

  • j1z1j1z1 Posts: 294 Member
    SAEldarin wrote: »
    logion wrote: »
    She is talking about that the sims4 is supposed to be not only a life simulator but also an adventure simulator, a trend simulator... etc.

    Completely disregarding that the sims 4 is lacking in all of those aspects so that's why nothing feels complete.

    This. A thousand times this!

    Can we please at least change the name of the franchise from "The Sims" to "The Explorers?" That way we can pass the name on to another company who is committed to a simulation game (looking at you Paralives)? I mean, it's in the name people..."Sims" for simulation, not MMORPG, not adventure, not first-person shooter, etc.

    I mean, what kind of simulation would a flight simulator be if we had only three flight paths to choose from? But we don't; in a real flight simulator we get an open world where we can fly to wherever we choose -- even if means we never make that runway.

    I really love the idea of people getting all sorts of different packs and themes (I do!) -- not everything will be liked by every player. True! But if you want to add "pick your path" to adventure cross-branding, at least make sure you've done your best to finish the simulation game you sold us first.

    But this is what I don't get. All but four packs have been about realistic play. Or all but 5 if you want to count Jungle Adventure out, though that's something that people do in real life. That still makes this a life simulation game.
  • SimTrippySimTrippy Posts: 7,142 Member
    Finbar659 wrote: »
    SimTrippy wrote: »
    Yeah no, even though I won't be buying this pack rn, and there's a few things I don't like about it, I really don't see where she's being rude here 🤷🏻‍♀️ she's also not saying it was all her decision for that matter, just that she ultimately approved the suggestion (if anything this reads more as the "I stand behind my company's decision" jargon than anything else, and let's be real what else is she gonna say). People are reading so much into this, partly because they're angry. And I get where they're coming from, because it's true, there are still so many basic things missing from the sims 4 (real policemen, group activities, slow dancing, pillow fights, sleepovers, real babies, better teens, better personalities, fears and wants, useful meaningful aspirations ...) that are honestly a lot more needed rn, but alas, this is what we're getting. It merits a discussion but it doesn't merit mindlessly attacking every guru we come across and putting words and intentions in their mouths that just aren't there ..

    I think she could have at least put the star wars topic in the official surveys to see if it was highly requested. Obviously they didn't, and it was very disliked by majority

    I think by that time the pack was already in development, and more importantly: this argument doesn't really relate or respond to anything I've said here.
  • SAEldarinSAEldarin Posts: 394 Member
    j1z1 wrote: »
    SAEldarin wrote: »
    logion wrote: »
    She is talking about that the sims4 is supposed to be not only a life simulator but also an adventure simulator, a trend simulator... etc.

    Completely disregarding that the sims 4 is lacking in all of those aspects so that's why nothing feels complete.

    This. A thousand times this!

    Can we please at least change the name of the franchise from "The Sims" to "The Explorers?" That way we can pass the name on to another company who is committed to a simulation game (looking at you Paralives)? I mean, it's in the name people..."Sims" for simulation, not MMORPG, not adventure, not first-person shooter, etc.

    I mean, what kind of simulation would a flight simulator be if we had only three flight paths to choose from? But we don't; in a real flight simulator we get an open world where we can fly to wherever we choose -- even if means we never make that runway.

    I really love the idea of people getting all sorts of different packs and themes (I do!) -- not everything will be liked by every player. True! But if you want to add "pick your path" to adventure cross-branding, at least make sure you've done your best to finish the simulation game you sold us first.

    But this is what I don't get. All but four packs have been about realistic play. Or all but 5 if you want to count Jungle Adventure out, though that's something that people do in real life. That still makes this a life simulation game.

    I don't consider "life simulation" to equal a "realistic play." I mean, The Sims has mermaids, vampires, and they pull brooms out of their backsides!

    When I say a "simulation," I mean just that. You can add wackiness (The Sims franchise has always had that) and whatever else you like to it, but the gameplay should fulfill the player's ability to effect that simulation. Instead, we are getting packs that have directed play. This is not simulation. That's all I meant from my post -- it had nothing to do with the actual theme of the packs. For all I care you can add the Teletubby brand to The Sims. Who knows, maybe there'd be some awesome build items in it? I'm open.



  • Missmagoo2Missmagoo2 Posts: 905 Member
    I think she was really professional in her responses. But, it doesn't seem the gurus (or EA) actually understands why some are so upset.

    It's like "yeah, we know you guys really want better emotions, traits, generations, etc. we are actively listening, trust us. BUT LOOK AT THIS NEW PACK WE'RE PUMPING OUT!! Why aren't you guys as excited as we are? Don't you want a different way to play LIFE simulation? We're clearly giving you guys what you want."

    Let's keep slapping pretty band-aids on this game and hope nobody notices the infection underneath.
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  • j1z1j1z1 Posts: 294 Member
    SAEldarin wrote: »
    j1z1 wrote: »
    SAEldarin wrote: »
    logion wrote: »
    She is talking about that the sims4 is supposed to be not only a life simulator but also an adventure simulator, a trend simulator... etc.

    Completely disregarding that the sims 4 is lacking in all of those aspects so that's why nothing feels complete.

    This. A thousand times this!

    Can we please at least change the name of the franchise from "The Sims" to "The Explorers?" That way we can pass the name on to another company who is committed to a simulation game (looking at you Paralives)? I mean, it's in the name people..."Sims" for simulation, not MMORPG, not adventure, not first-person shooter, etc.

    I mean, what kind of simulation would a flight simulator be if we had only three flight paths to choose from? But we don't; in a real flight simulator we get an open world where we can fly to wherever we choose -- even if means we never make that runway.

    I really love the idea of people getting all sorts of different packs and themes (I do!) -- not everything will be liked by every player. True! But if you want to add "pick your path" to adventure cross-branding, at least make sure you've done your best to finish the simulation game you sold us first.

    But this is what I don't get. All but four packs have been about realistic play. Or all but 5 if you want to count Jungle Adventure out, though that's something that people do in real life. That still makes this a life simulation game.

    I don't consider "life simulation" to equal a "realistic play." I mean, The Sims has mermaids, vampires, and they pull brooms out of their backsides!

    When I say a "simulation," I mean just that. You can add wackiness (The Sims franchise has always had that) and whatever else you like to it, but the gameplay should fulfill the player's ability to effect that simulation. Instead, we are getting packs that have directed play. This is not simulation. That's all I meant from my post -- it had nothing to do with the actual theme of the packs. For all I care you can add the Teletubby brand to The Sims. Who knows, maybe there'd be some awesome build items in it? I'm open.

    Ah I see, you mean if they continue adding quests. Yeah, I get what you mean. I like that to a degree, as in I enjoy Strangerville and Jungle Adventure, but I certainly don't want it in every pack and I do like having the option of ignoring it.
  • SAEldarinSAEldarin Posts: 394 Member
    @Sk8rblaze

    The very first thing I thought about when I saw the Star Wars brand coming to The Sims was what you mentioned: take Sixam and flesh it out; add something original and in keeping with Sim lore.

    However, I read somewhere on these forums that the devs wouldn't be enhancing Sixam because it came with a pack you had to buy -- and so not everyone has access to it (great way to hamstring your players, but, hey, it brings in money!). My sims have been to Sixam a total of two times. It's not a world that begs me to come back, I'll say that about it.

    I agree, it does seem like The Sims is suffering an identity crisis. We have aliens and an alien world that need attention. Instead, we leave all that to embrace a brand that exists outside of The Sims. Personally, I have no problem with brands being introduced to The Sims (I enjoyed The Ikea stuff pack from TS2 days), but what bugs me the most is that what has been introduced is done just "enough" to make (and sell) a pack while yet feeling somehow "incomplete" or, at least, without much depth (or, even worse, with a ton of bad design choices -- situational outfits anyone?). And, truth be told, with the brands that have been introduced (Ikea, MAC, etc.), I can forget they're brands at all. Not so with something like Star Wars. But I can choose to not buy it. I'm OK with having a pack that I don't want to buy. And, for the sake of having more options, I may buy it -- but only after I know modders can help me keep randos from carrying lightsabers and wearing alien face masks, tights and eyeball rings.

    Regarding the adventure type of gameplay, another simmer commented that TS3 incorporated those "adventures" with other gameplay features that made visiting Egypt, for example, a different experience for each of the sims that visited it. But what is so different about Strangerville's storyline from one sim to the next? How different is being in Selvadorada from one sim to another? And what options will truly exist with this latest pack besides "three different" directed storylines?

    I feel so much of what you are saying regarding the "little to no confidence" in the leaders of the series as it is moving away from a true simulation imo.




  • BluegayleBluegayle Posts: 3,056 Member
    ladybreid wrote: »
    Not buying this pack, absolutely hate the theme of it

    HOWEVER...

    Honest to god I see nothing wrong with what she said. Is the game perfect, oh heck no. Are the gurus ever gonna please everyone? No. Not any more than the rest of us will. She wasn't rude by any stretch of the imagination and certainly does not warrant the "she should be fired" garbage. There's no sense reading rudeness into it, it certainly won't make the pack suddenly appealing and will only cause unconstructive drama and make people look petty.

    Seriously stop with these lame attempts at cancel culture fit throwing.

    Well said. Though I dont hate the pack. :-) But I did want something else, which I am hoping to get in an ep. This is after all a game pack so adding another adventure is fine with me. Maybe I will make a theme park out of it.
    Being positive does not mean ignoring the negative. Being positive means overcoming the negative
  • Chicklet453681Chicklet453681 Posts: 691 Member
    edited September 2
    Per SimGuruNinja
    I mean, she certainly didn't twist our arm (the dev team) to make this.

    WE LOVE THIS PACK! Super proud of the end result and can't wait to see what players come up with!
  • silentcyborgsilentcyborg Posts: 196 Member
    I feel priorities should be elsewhere atm before star wars, but I thought what she said was fine - I've seen less professional comments over worse issues (ubisoft, hello).

    Even though I didn't agree with the decisions made, she at least seems to be pushing for more family play in other areas. It's also nice to see an older woman visibly higher up in a company (other games I follow only seem to show young/old guys in the spotlight), so simmers saying they want her gone is a bit sad, especially as I haven't heard anything bad about her (eg. pushing for crunch, stuff like what ubisoft did etc).
  • charmed4life4charmed4life4 Posts: 146 Member
    j1z1 wrote: »
    The only answer that would placate people right now other than they're canceling release, which is not going to happen, is that the update is giving us tons of long widely requested stuff.

    I disagree, I think players want to know The Sims team is listening. This year has been a master class of them not listening to the community. It is as simple as sharing with the community what their plans for the year are. Everything is shrouded in secrecy and leads to nothing but disappointment for a large portion of the community. I'd rather know what they plan to do so I can temper my disappointment. The response would have been different if the fans knew early this year it would be a Star Wars pack coming down the pike IMO.
  • j1z1j1z1 Posts: 294 Member
    edited September 2
    j1z1 wrote: »
    The only answer that would placate people right now other than they're canceling release, which is not going to happen, is that the update is giving us tons of long widely requested stuff.

    I disagree, I think players want to know The Sims team is listening. This year has been a master class of them not listening to the community. It is as simple as sharing with the community what their plans for the year are. Everything is shrouded in secrecy and leads to nothing but disappointment for a large portion of the community. I'd rather know what they plan to do so I can temper my disappointment. The response would have been different if the fans knew early this year it would be a Star Wars pack coming down the pike IMO.

    Transparency and communication would be great, I agree. But this is also the year we got a pack we (or most of us) voted for (for some reason lol). I'm not counting Eco in this because the vote for that was for a stuff pack, not an expansion. It's a process that needs to be worked on for sure.

    Edit (my phone's being weird): She did say they were listening and time will tell if they do I guess (maybe it's too optimistic to hope for the coming update). They've been slow in handing over popular requests, like with ladders, and I don't know the reasons behind that, but a lot of those requests need to be base game updates and shouldn't be affected by whatever packs they've adjacently been working on in the last couple of years (ideally).
  • Hearts4uHearts4u Posts: 586 Member
    edited September 4
    No matter how she responds--someone is going to take issue with it and read more into it than is necessary.

    This is a pack I'm looking forward to and I can't wait to see what comes out next. Yet, if what comes next does not appeal to me, oh well. There is always something around the corner that may. Happy Journey to Batuu fellow Simmers who are buying this pack. :wink:

    I'm sure she has thick skin.
    Sensi.jpg
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  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,463 Member
    edited September 2
    I like her and have a lot of respect for her journey through the gaming industry which isn't easy for any woman to do. As much as I can be critical about the Sims 4, the direction of the franchise has gotten a lot better since she took over. She's smart and knows her stuff and I like how she wants to mix both old and new ideas which I support a lot. She was very supportive of the ideas for toddlers thread too and thanks to her support with that, we got the best toddler in the franchise yet. She called me passionate too which still brings a smile to my face. :)
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 19,463 Member
    @So_Money Feedback not being ignored (which is what she says) doesn't mean every person giving feedback gets what they want. That's not even possible. Even Toddlers weren't wanted by everybody. One of the very first mods after they were released was a mod for skipping the Toddler lifestage. Everything some Simmers want (which actually included more Star Wars content — though personally, I was only after a couple more costumes for my cosplaying Sims) is unwanted by some other Simmers. There are Simmers who don't want more mundane daily life packs. There are Simmers who don't want more occult packs. There are Simmers who want less humour and Simmers who want more humour. There are Simmers who desperately want story progression and Simmers who desperately don't want story progression. There are Simmers who want quick release after an announcement and Simmers who want longer leadups with more info. There are Simmers who love the friendly, jokey tone when SimGurus use that and Simmers who hate it. No matter how much the team doesn't ignore feedback, they cannot possibly satisfy all Simmers. What's more, their job is not to cater to our wishes. Video games are not bespoke products, and video game makers are not beholden to some kind of gamer democracy. If they want to go a different direction from majority feedback, they get to do that. Doesn't mean we have to like it — I wouldn't have voted for this pack if there'd been a vote — but hey, even if there had been, we've already seen that even when they do hold a vote, they end up with "feedback" that says they obviously faked the results because someone didn't like them.

    tldr; Simmers have opposing opinions and desires that can't all be accommodated, and this isn't a democracy.
    I think you summed the community perfectly. We are diverse and want different things. Like I didn't care for City Living but I am excited about this pack. Also hope that you are doing well too.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • MissyHissyMissyHissy Posts: 1,924 Member
    Sindocat wrote: »
    When a "fan" community becomes toxic and hateful, a responsible Executive Producer will take as much responsibility as she can for her studio, to shield her creatives from the kind of atrocious attention that has become all too common toward game designers. This is a courageous stand, and a generous one - even if she has staffers to screen her mail and social media - and I applaud her for it. She is Executive Producer. The buck stops with her.

    Don't like the pack? Fine. Don't buy it. Play something else.

    Hateful conspiracy theories and badmouthing developers? Uncalled for.

    I was thinking along these lines myself. I thought it was decent that she was open and transparent with the community, even if a large portion of the online community didn't like hearing it. She was honest even in the face on intense criticism. So she's to be applauded for that, whether the pack's your cup of tea or not <3
    MiAqoAE.png
  • username3645937username3645937 Posts: 130 Member
    Finbar659 wrote: »
    Sindocat wrote: »
    When a "fan" community becomes toxic and hateful, a responsible Executive Producer will take as much responsibility as she can for her studio, to shield her creatives from the kind of atrocious attention that has become all too common toward game designers. This is a courageous stand, and a generous one - even if she has staffers to screen her mail and social media - and I applaud her for it. She is Executive Producer. The buck stops with her.

    Don't like the pack? Fine. Don't buy it. Play something else.

    Hateful conspiracy theories and badmouthing developers? Uncalled for.

    And we won't buy it <3

    The issue is that why the game isn't being created like previous game in depth. It's lacking terribly.

    That's not hate. That's just a negative feedback.

    It's odd if you have to describe to her as some sort of hero. Like what if she was telling the truth? What if she is responsible? We don't fully know what's happening behind that office.

    To be fair and tell the entire story , everyone knew before sims 4 was released that there werent any toddlers and a lot of things from Sims 3 had been removed. The time to "not buy" the game , was back in 2014 :|



    Keeping it COOL, calm & collected <3

    Anticipating Sims 5.... : P
  • MissyHissyMissyHissy Posts: 1,924 Member
    @So_Money Feedback not being ignored (which is what she says) doesn't mean every person giving feedback gets what they want. That's not even possible. Even Toddlers weren't wanted by everybody. One of the very first mods after they were released was a mod for skipping the Toddler lifestage. Everything some Simmers want (which actually included more Star Wars content — though personally, I was only after a couple more costumes for my cosplaying Sims) is unwanted by some other Simmers. There are Simmers who don't want more mundane daily life packs. There are Simmers who don't want more occult packs. There are Simmers who want less humour and Simmers who want more humour. There are Simmers who desperately want story progression and Simmers who desperately don't want story progression. There are Simmers who want quick release after an announcement and Simmers who want longer leadups with more info. There are Simmers who love the friendly, jokey tone when SimGurus use that and Simmers who hate it. No matter how much the team doesn't ignore feedback, they cannot possibly satisfy all Simmers. What's more, their job is not to cater to our wishes. Video games are not bespoke products, and video game makers are not beholden to some kind of gamer democracy. If they want to go a different direction from majority feedback, they get to do that. Doesn't mean we have to like it — I wouldn't have voted for this pack if there'd been a vote — but hey, even if there had been, we've already seen that even when they do hold a vote, they end up with "feedback" that says they obviously faked the results because someone didn't like them.

    tldr; Simmers have opposing opinions and desires that can't all be accommodated, and this isn't a democracy.

    I think this is a pretty sensible way of looking at it. We're an incredibly diverse fan base and that means every pack will upset a lot of people. Packs like Seasons are usually popular with a majority of the fan base but there are always a smaller group that aren't keen or generally indifferent. So a lot of the packs that have been released have appealed to a vast majority of the fans, either by being remakes of packs for earlier generations, or new ideas that have, generally, been well received.

    Okay, Star Wars doesn't appeal to many people. But perhaps it is appealing to the smaller portion of the fanbase that, as yet, haven't been included as much. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to include the smaller portion of the fanbase too - to me, the beauty and attraction of the Sims games, and particularly Sims 4, is the ability to quite honestly build your own game - by buying the packs that fit your personal gameplay. So for sci-fi fans, a lot of the more 'realistic' styled packs might not have appealed so much, so this one might be more their thing, where as a lot of simmers are happier with supernatural or realistic themes.

    When you look at all the packs The Sims 4 has, there's a variety. There are more 'realistic' packs than anything and while there's aren't as many supernatural packs as I know others are waiting for, there's still more supernatural packs than sci-fi. So maybe it was time to appeal to a smaller faction, rather than the vocal majority? <3
    MiAqoAE.png
  • grassharpgrassharp Posts: 25 Member
    Personally, I think she acted with complete professionalism and took responsibility. Regardless of who actually approved the project, she shielded her team from the harassment, as evidenced by the multiple threads attacking her. To me, that’s honorable. I legitimately do not understand people calling for her resignation/termination or saying that she acted inappropriately. It makes me question what professions these people have worked in—if everyone that made a poor decision or a genuine mistake no longer had a job, I doubt very much that anyone would.

    I do not like the idea of the pack. I doubt that I will like its execution. However, it is a concept that does appeal to some players.

    I’m less looking for new and innovative content and more for a revamp that will give sims personalities that actually cause them to behave in different ways based on their traits. I don’t know much about game design, but it seems as if emotions have totally overridden traits to the detriment of creating unique individuals. This makes it fundamentally difficult to create the stories that players might want to tell.
  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,346 Member
    I dont like this pack, ive said that already here. But the way people discuss and put down the gurus/devs is disturbing to me.Seriously, at the end of the day i think simmers are WAYYYY too intense about this stuff. Its just a game. Some themes youll like and some you wont. That doesnt mean they arent working on anything else :|

    Exactly. It's rumored that cars will be added via patch within the next 7 months and that better babies are also being worked on. They're also working on skin tones. So clearly, they do listen to feedback but everybody gets so tense when a pack isn't exactly what they want. Just ignore the themes you dislike and wait for the ones you like.
  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,346 Member
    So_Money wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    So_Money wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    So_Money wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    So_Money wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    I thought she was completely professional. She’s the Executive Producer, not a community manager.

    I thought that her response was textbook perfect. She stated that she understood their position, and then explained her position. One does not have to agree with her position, but her conduct was neither unprofessional or condescending.

    I think that’s what bugs me about it. It’s like they’re reading answers from a How to Deal with Customers 101 textbook. It’s a bog-standard tactic to placate the other side, but under the surface I don’t believe they care about the other side’s feedback.

    If they do, you say they're talking down to you. If they don't you say they're unprofessional. It seems like a carnival game where you lose no matter what.

    I’d rather they didn’t engage at all. Or at least own their decisions in a way that says, “We’re going to do what we think is best." At least that way they’re not stringing people along for years.

    And if they don't engage at all then they're "ignoring the player base". It's set up so that you guys have a grievance no matter what.

    You certainly wouldn’t hear me saying that. And they’re already ignoring the player base. They’re just doing it while keeping people sweet with promises and understanding. Meanwhile they do whatever they please. What’s the difference?

    They haven't made any promises. They didn't make a promise about toddlers, vampires, weather, etc. In fact, they've been very good about not sending those sorts of messages. But that hasn't stopped you all from inserting subtext into everything. That's where all of this comes from. You can see it right here. The forums are all aflame with people saying that she said things she didn't, that she was being unprofessional when she wasn't, and that her tone was condescending when that wasn't the case. What's more, you're calling it "useful feedback".

    This is the sort of thing that I'm referring to when I say that this community has a corrosive effect on the soul. You're not listening, you're reacting, and you're railing against things that weren't said and promises that were never made. And the community thinks that it is righteous for doing so. It's cool if you're not into The Sims 4, but it isn't cool to argue against things that never were. That's not fair.


    Right here in this tweet she promises the community that feedback is being taken into account. Plain as day.

    Okay. So they probably are taking feedback into account, right? We don't know what they're working on behind the scenes. Only time can prove that, because we already know they can only say so much and nothing about future content.
  • MidnightAuraMidnightAura Posts: 5,702 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    I dont like this pack, ive said that already here. But the way people discuss and put down the gurus/devs is disturbing to me.Seriously, at the end of the day i think simmers are WAYYYY too intense about this stuff. Its just a game. Some themes youll like and some you wont. That doesnt mean they arent working on anything else :|

    Did you ever wonder why Will Wright asked people to leave his office when they came to him with ideas for The Sims? Did you ever wonder why The Sims was so successful? Because it wasn't an adventure game, nor a safe space, nor a trend simulator nor a story driven/rpg. Did you ever wonder why The Sims had so many hardships and things in it that those Sims had to deal with and over come? Because he believed the down side of life and failstates were much more interesting than all those things TS4 is about, such as a trend simulator, adventure simulator and or a safe space. No one can even say what TS4 is supposed to be, six years ago it was a soap opera according to Rachel Franklin. Who knows what it is supposed to be tomorrow. But my opinion? It's a slap happy, all over the place, nonsensical soapbox that floats between what they want to play in a game and what they want to convey to young minds in a game, rather than a satire of a life simulator.

    EXACTLY! 👏 Say it louder for the people in the back!

    Will Wright had a vision, he knew what he wanted his game to be and it stuck to that vision.

    Sims 4 wants to be a safe space where we can all learn and grow, a safe space from bullies. (Community manager’s words not mine) a game about drama, a representation game where we can all make ourselves live our best lives and now it wants to be a very poor RPG lite.

    This is the problem. Sims 4 can’t be jack of all trades. It’s not working.
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