I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
I question the timing of this thread. Something wonderful is happening for Black Simmers and those who like to play with darker skinned Sims and instead of being happy for these corrections and for the people who have complained about the splotchiness and ashiness, and everything else wrong with them for years now, you instead want to throw mud on the whole idea and say that it's not good enough and that people should not have been complaining because at least Black people already exist in the game and because you have a difficult time creating a Native American Sim? What does one have to do with the other? I don't understand why you couldn't make your point about Native American Sims without discussing the darker tones for Black people.
I also seriously question you stating that it is a FACT that you CANNOT create a Native American Sim in The Sims 4. There are so many parameters within CAS to create whoever you want. Why, supposedly, are you having so much trouble? Now, if you stated you want to see Native American style clothing, then I could get on board with you on that. I'd be curious to see which types of clothing get added and who the team talks with to make this happen so that it's done right. But, you seriously can't make a Native American Sim at all? Because...?
What is preventing you from using the parameters within CAS to make adjustments to get features the way you want them to create your Native American Sim?
agree. this always happens anything black people get any small measure of validation . but besides that, we arent even asking for "race" to be included in the game . just better dark tones, so that dark skinned sims look nicer. i dont even think of my sims as a "race". they are all just sims. dark , medium and light. but sims at the end of the day.
including every real life culture isnt necessary, since the sims is not actually based on the universe we live in. its a whole other dimension. creating a sim who favors Native American people is just as possible as creating sims that resemble black/Asian/Mediterranean etc people.
I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Thank you, I think you touched on the real issue.
The Sims games in the past were in their own universe, and that universe had no "race", but it did have diversity to a small extent. In Sims 2, for example, there were four skin tones, ranging from light to dark. Because the game was a satire of humanity, and the player was meant to be the "God". It was a simplified way to create whatever appearance or "culture" the player wanted their Sims to have. If you activated the Aliens by using the telescope at night, then you also got the green skin tone, but it was exclusive to Aliens.
While The Sims games have always contained that diversity, they have never claimed to represent any race or religion. In Sims 3, there was a skin tone slider, but I believe you could also access the color wheel to create unusual skin tones like pink and blue so it really expanded on creating what was in your imagination, which was the point of the game. But the tools were already there for diversity, and the company didn't have to proclaim it to the world. They did also have some cultural representation in locations, both in Sims 2 and Sims 3 (I can't speak for Sims 1, I haven't played it) but that was where the line was drawn.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
How can you declare inclusivity and cultural diversity by tossing in a selection of splotchy dark tones and call it a day? Sure, they say their work isn't done, but that's the caveat because it will never be done. And I think they are beginning to understand the corner they've backed themselves into, even after they release these new tones. Because now, every time they release something to represent a cultural group or race, another culture is going to get offended that they haven't been represented, including the light/white-skinned cultures. Because Irish, Finnish, Italian, Icelandic, Czech, New Zealanders, etc. all exist too, and yes, Natives of various regions. As do many different Asian and Latino races. If you're going to claim to be inclusive of cultures and races but then pick and choose what cultures you want to represent just to appeal to a movement or trend, you are going to appear racist when you're not delivering on truly being diverse.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
It won't help people wanting a Sims 5 either will it? Having gone along the diversity route EA/Maxis will be wanting to prolong Sims 4 for as long as possible to make up the cash spent on it.
Of course they could make the Fall/Autumn expansion set in Africa. Fully justifiable then.
If I were EA/Maxis I would just employ those modders who have made a start on dark skin tones. They might learn something and those modders find jobs in the industry.
It seems that society views diversity=black, and kind of forgets that other minorities or PoC exist. If they really care about diversity, they would champion adding customisation that extends beyond black aesthetics
I actually tend to create more Latinx characters, specifically Latinos (male), because where I grew up I had a lot of Latinx friends, and later co-workers. (I'm your typical white bread old lady, BTW.) I think it's more of an inadvertent racism than anything blatant or even covert. "Never attribute to malice what can equally attributed to stupidity" (or ignorance).
My Sims are nothing like my current life. They're usually married (I'm now widowed since early May), they have nice houses (I'm an apartment dweller), they have good jobs (I'm retired), they have a lot of money (I'm on a fixed income)...sure, my Simself looks like me (maybe a little heavier since I've been losing weight) but her life is a lot different. I play my Sims not to represent myself as I am, but to play the "what if" game: what if I had married someone different, what if my husband and I had had kids, what if I'd become a famous writer, etc. I don't need an exact replica of myself. And the Sims world is a utopia of sorts; there's no racism, no sexism, no homophobia. You can have a Sim who is dirt-poor, then one day they win the lottery and get a million Simoleons, or you could just motherlode them that much money and freerealestate them into a mansion. Or you could play the Landgraabs, move them into a container house in Evergreen Harbor, take away their money and their jobs and make them start from scratch...oh, and give them screaming toddler triplets to deal with.
Check out my Gallery! Origin ID: justme22
Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
It shouldnt be a "game" just to give decent skin tones that arent ashy (to many players who rely on them). Its the bare minimum. I admire the campaigning efforts of the people making their voices heard. Your voice isnt the only one that matters. Of course people would be angry about being ignored, for a matter that shouldnt be a problem in the first place. This "attitude" is paying customers demanding quality and theres nothing wrong (or childish) about it. It brings about action.
I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
It shouldnt be a "game" just to give decent skin tones that arent ashy (to many players who rely on them). Its the bare minimum. I admire the campaigning efforts of the people making their voices heard. Your voice isnt the only one that matters. Of course people would be angry about being ignored, for a matter that shouldnt be a problem in the first place. This "attitude" is paying customers demanding quality and theres nothing wrong (or childish) about it. It brings about action.
I'm actually more interested in makeup that works for a variety of skin tones than I am in skin tones themselves. But that's just my 2 Simoleons...
Check out my Gallery! Origin ID: justme22
Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
A lot of people in this thing are replying to OP like they're experts on racism. Are any of us? It seems like a lot of people think racism has to be truly, actively hateful and antagonizing to be considered racist. That's simply not the case.
So many sweet, kind people have been incredibly racist to me in the most polite way with no hatred in their hearts. But guess what? It's still racism, even when you don't mean it to be.
And, yes, completely omitting certain races, even if it's by accident, or because they thought "we've given them enough tools to do it for themselves" is a racist assumption.
And for the people saying "well they don't have x race for me and I'm fine with it, so why should they have x race for you?" Why shouldn't you have that for yourself? This game has countless additions through patches and dlc. Why shouldn't they continue to add more options? Keep asking for the things you want! All the things!
We live in a racist society. No discussion. Racism is the water we drink and the air we breathe. It seeps into everything, even our entertainment. It's running in the background of everything we do. We are all responsible for unlearning racism, which is something you are never "done" doing, no matter who you are.
I applaud OP for advocating for themselves and people like them. Representation is important.
And I wish the people in here "well actually"-ing all over themselves would maybe try listening for once. It's embarrassing.
This is so refreshing. My mood has soured a bit reading the responses that think being inclusive is a waste of time.
I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
That's possibly true, but I think that had they not fed into specific agendas and kept more quiet on the issues, players may not have been seeing this as a race/culture issue. Had they pressed that this was a game of fantasy and not reality, in the sense that The Sims takes place in a fictional universe with occasional parallels, I don't think the expectations would be for precision, or seen in such a personal way. But they've been pushing the personal angle a lot lately, and that's just strolling into a mine field. That's what's going to make players more upset about what's not in the game because now it feels like a personal affront to them.
A lot of people in this thing are replying to OP like they're experts on racism. Are any of us? It seems like a lot of people think racism has to be truly, actively hateful and antagonizing to be considered racist.
.
What kind of studies do you need to take to be an "expert" on racism? 🤔 Why is one commenters opinion more valuable than another? They arent omitting 'certain' races there are no races in the game. Just colors!! People are taking this way too far when we could have better personalities, worlds, consequences by now 😭
There are no "races" of human either, just colours, and yet here we are. Race is a made up concept. But it still matters. And representation matters. People should be able to see Sims who look like them and tell their stories.
And why is this an either/or thing? Who says one has to come at the expense of another? Give us diversity of colours and shapes, and personality, behaviour, etc.
Why do you get to decide what's "too far?" Why do you get to decide what's actually important?
When people say something is important to them, why do you feel the need to say "that actually doesn't matter, you should want this instead!" I can want both. I can want something different from you.
I'm just pointing out that this thread reads like a lot of white people telling BIPOC what racism is and what it isn't, and it's gross. Racism isn't an "opinion" though. That much is certain.
I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
That's possibly true, but I think that had they not fed into specific agendas and kept more quiet on the issues, players may not have been seeing this as a race/culture issue. Had they pressed that this was a game of fantasy and not reality, in the sense that The Sims takes place in a fictional universe with occasional parallels, I don't think the expectations would be for precision, or seen in such a personal way. But they've been pushing the personal angle a lot lately, and that's just strolling into a mine field. That's what's going to make players more upset about what's not in the game because now it feels like a personal affront to them.
Sticky situation.
Even if sims 4's theme was "Fantasy and not reality" , that would not keep Black simmers from wanting skin tones that have warmth and dont look ashy. We would still want hairstyles featuring Ki n k y textures. TF? This point of view centers European as the default. It just does.
I respect your feelings and your right to share your point of view. But, you mention there are races (as in more than one) that are missing. Yet, the only one you mention are those who belong to the Nations. (Yes, that's how those erroneously called Indians are addressed.) IE the Iroquois Six-Nations that made a Treaty with the British back in the mid-18th century to not allow any more white settlers into the western section of North Carolina, which ultimately became Tennessee. This Treaty left out several other Nations, such as the Cherokee Nation (which was very large and who laid claim to the lands in said Treaty.)There are many Nations that lived in North America and I'm curious as to whom you believe has been left out. There are only four races in existence. Some mistake ethnicity with a race, or even a religion with an ethnicity. You have the Black race, the Brown race, the Yellow race (primarily Asians) and the Red race, (primarily those who belong to the Nations). One has to wonder, if this is so easy to fix, why it hasn't been done already? Please take this with the sentiment by which I mean it, (a kind and loving heart) this nation is already divided. Let's not go down this path and further the divide. We simply won't have a home if this keeps up in which to play Sims, let alone live.
I strongly disagree that there should be an all inclusive representation of 'race' in The Sims.
Instead, the game should focus on a more complex sims creator tool, adequate enough for the player to create a sim of any appearance.
TS4's CAS is good, but it can be much better. As you mentioned, it should have unique sliders for certain features that are currently missing. Really there should be height sliders.
Skin tones and skin details should be expanded by adding new swatches, or through a complete CAS overhaul. There should be a greater variety of hair styles, including textured hair and more natural colors.
I'm a hybrid of about 50 different 'races'. I can't find a preset of anything that looks like me, because my 'race' doesn't exist in game. I'm not even a 'race' anymore.
What I am is a human being with a blend of different physical features. And in the end that's what everybody's appearance is. A blend of physical features.
It's not Maxis' job to represent every single race in The Sims. It's Maxis' job to give us the right tools so we can create a sim that looks like ourselves, or another person with unique features, or something completely ridiculous that doesn't even exist in the world (Or so we think...).
That's why it's a game. If a tool like that exists, no one has to be disappointed.
Enter Sims 4 and suddenly EA/Maxis wants to jump on the trend bandwagon to be "part of the crowd'. Suddenly, the game's long history of diversity speaking for itself isn't good enough to get attention, but they have to shout loud and proud to get that pat on the back (and, let's be realistic, money.) Suddenly they're preaching up and down about inclusion and culture and diversity, making huge presentations out of every addition that speaks to that agenda. And while it's good to include those things in game by default, and expand on them, the marketing of it always left a bad taste to me because it's using a serious issue to get sales, and eventually, the expectations will go above and beyond what they are capable of accommodating.
Honestly, I don't see how they can get out of it now. The game should have been left up to the interpretation of its players, while these new, diverse items got patched in on a neutral stance, or under the presentation of just expanding CAS. But they've raised a flag and declared their game representative of real people, so real people are going to expect representation.
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
That's possibly true, but I think that had they not fed into specific agendas and kept more quiet on the issues, players may not have been seeing this as a race/culture issue. Had they pressed that this was a game of fantasy and not reality, in the sense that The Sims takes place in a fictional universe with occasional parallels, I don't think the expectations would be for precision, or seen in such a personal way. But they've been pushing the personal angle a lot lately, and that's just strolling into a mine field. That's what's going to make players more upset about what's not in the game because now it feels like a personal affront to them.
Sticky situation.
Even if sims 4's theme was "Fantasy and not reality" , that would not keep Black simmers from wanting skin tones that have warmth and dont look ashy. We would still want hairstyles featuring Ki n k y textures. TF? This point of view centers European as the default. It just does.
No. It doesn't. You're projecting into my comment to make it about that. In other posts, I've said several times that those skin tones are long overdue to be fixed. They should have been fixed before they were put into the game, it was insulting and embarrassing for those to be presented as a finished product.
In my last couple of posts, I was referring specifically to the way The Sims games have been marketed regarding putting a stamp on what the game was about or contained and what actual skin diversity they had and how the promotion of personal representation means a large range of accountability.
I have always wanted more curly, frizzy, wavy, thick and kinky textures because my own hair falls into three or more of those categories. I used CC in Sims 2 and hated the options in Sims 3 because they included a color wheel yet were completely absent in diverse hair textures and styles. I couldn't come even remotely close to creating a Sim self. In Sims 4 CAS demo, I saw the first signs of actual hair diversity and it's one of the major things that pulled me into getting TS4.
And we always need more diverse hair styles, definitely, but in my previous posts I was specifically addressing skin tones. And worldwide, there are many, many shades and tones ranging light, dark, and in-between, that the game has not even come close to representing.
Edit: Omg. There's a word in here that goes from being censored to uncensored and back again, "K inky". For eff sake, stop the censorship madness!
One of the premade females in Willow Creek is supposed to be a native Indian. She came in the base game and has shoulder length hair and a slightly tanned skintone. I can't remember her name.
Do you mean Zoe Patel from Oasis Springs? Can't think of anyone else who might fit this description in the base game.
Yes.
Oh dear. Zoe is as far from native American as it's possible to be. Patel is a common Indian name - in the country of India. I guess this is why Native Americans prefer not to be called Native Indians.......
I have a feeling that this thread is headed to lockdown heaven.
I think some perspective is in order. This is just a game, folks. It's not life and death, it's entertainment. Participation is voluntary--if there are elements to the game that you don't approve of, no one is forcing you to play it.
One of the premade females in Willow Creek is supposed to be a native Indian. She came in the base game and has shoulder length hair and a slightly tanned skintone. I can't remember her name.
Do you mean Zoe Patel from Oasis Springs? Can't think of anyone else who might fit this description in the base game.
Yes.
Oh dear. Zoe is as far from native American as it's possible to be. Patel is a common Indian name - in the country of India. I guess this is why Native Americans prefer not to be called Native Indians.......
Yes I always thought she was meant to be more of Indian heritage than Native American myself.
OP, I think the very things you find missing in CAS are the very things every race finds missing. You see it from your own perspective only. All the eyes are stock, all the mouths stock and the faces flat colours and don't suit me either, if I wanted a realistic style. It's a cartoon style. All features need to be enhanced if that is wanted and I expect Maxis expected modders to fill the needs to suit.
Hopefully you might find something to suit you when they reveal them this Fall/Autumn.
What is preventing you from using the parameters within CAS to make adjustments to get features the way you want them to create your Native American Sim?
@Chazzzy What was preventing us before from using the parameters within CAS to create black sims?
You see where this is going?
You can create almost any kind of sim in the game as it is but people will always expect a lot more from a video game for some reason.
I think it's double standards to say "just use the tools we have in CAS" to a person wanting better options for Native Americans but not say the same to a person wanting better options to make a black sim.
What is preventing you from using the parameters within CAS to make adjustments to get features the way you want them to create your Native American Sim?
@Chazzzy What was preventing us before from using the parameters within CAS to create black sims?
You see where this is going?
You can create almost any kind of sim in the game as it is but people will always expect a lot more from a video game for some reason.
I think it's double standards to say "just use the tools we have in CAS" to a person wanting better options for Native Americans but not say the same to a person wanting better options to make a black sim.
But without Custom Content, Black sims have lousy skin color options. That's not something a typical end user can adjust. I can adjust lip shape and size, I can adjust nose slope and bridge height. I can adjust the corners of the eyes and their width, I can even mess with brow angles a little bit. But if there's no existing skin tone that works for the look I want, I can't do anything about that without custom content.
Now, are the sliders and morphs we have in the Base Game capable of creating a believable Native American? I'll admit I've never tried, I usually roll with what the randomizer gives me with just a few tweaks here and there if something starts to bother me (Hello, Vlad). So I'm willing to take the word of someone who has tried and who has more of a stake in their ability to create Sims that represent a specific ethnicity.
(Though I will point out that even Daz, which has been much better with representation with their Genesis 8 figures than previous generations, isn't actually the creator of the "people of the world" morph sets. That's SickleYield, a very talented vendor who sells add-on morphs for the Genesis figures through the Daz (and Renderosity) marketplace.)
What is preventing you from using the parameters within CAS to make adjustments to get features the way you want them to create your Native American Sim?
@Chazzzy What was preventing us before from using the parameters within CAS to create black sims?
You see where this is going?
You can create almost any kind of sim in the game as it is but people will always expect a lot more from a video game for some reason.
I think it's double standards to say "just use the tools we have in CAS" to a person wanting better options for Native Americans but not say the same to a person wanting better options to make a black sim.
Now, are the sliders and morphs we have in the Base Game capable of creating a believable Native American? I'll admit I've never tried, I usually roll with what the randomizer gives me with just a few tweaks here and there if something starts to bother me (Hello, Vlad). So I'm willing to take the word of someone who has tried and who has more of a stake in their ability to create Sims that represent a specific ethnicity.
Well yeah. I partially understand that. What I don't understand is the demand to be able to recreate yourself in the game with as much detail as possible.
Base game male hair is also lousy. I can't find a single one that looks like me. Male makeup? Not a lot of options either. But I'm not going to sit here and call EA h o m o phobic because the makeup sucks.
I just choose the options that are the closest to what I want to create. And that's fine. It's still a video game.
I guess at least that's how I see it. I respect everyone who has a different opinion.
I just don't see a reason to be like "I have black hair with brown undertones but the game only has blue undertones! EA what is this discrimination?"
@DaWaterRat my avatar is a black sim created before the skins were updated the first time. She's fine. It's fine that we're getting new tones and that they're "fixing" (whatever that means) the old ones, but to say that there were only ever lousy skin color options is not some universal truth.
I have many black sims, light and dark skinned, with the original Maxis-created skin tones and I think they look great and unique.
@DaWaterRat my avatar is a black sim created before the skins were updated the first time. She's fine. It's fine that we're getting new tones and that they're "fixing" (whatever that means) the old ones, but to say that there were only ever lousy skin color options is not some universal truth.
I have many black sims, light and dark skinned, with the original Maxis-created skin tones and I think they look great and unique.
Great for you. There are about five skin colors I use if I actually bother to modify skin color. 1 pale, 3 tan, 1 dark. Everything else looks off to me, and apparently to a lot of others.
And Lousy doesn't have to refer to the quality. It can refer to the number of options that actually were of quality.
I tried to create a sim as a Canadian First Nations race as a wife for Kurt Lumberjackson once, though she looks more bi-racial white/first nations to me and ended up with blue eyes cuz I forgot to change them, I'm terrible in CAS. Wasn't quite how I envisioned her, but I love how she turned out anyways and think her super beautiful so I left it, and I've never created a sim of ANY race that turned out how I was wanting them to haha! She was mainly preset with modification kinda thing. I never thought about it not being possible to do, because I figured it was all just my non-artistic skills and eagerness to hurry up and get back to live mode that was hindering me hahaha!
Personally, I think the major problem is - somewhere along the way in our sims' journey we stopped inviting the sims' world into ours, and started imposing our world into theirs.
Is there such a thing as an African American Sim? Or a Spanish Sim? They certainly don't speak Spanish. How much of our reality can we impose on a world of fantasy before that world isn't about fantasy anymore but instead becomes a graphic representation of our very own lives.
Also, this is a prime example of a one sided argument. If we are going to create an argument over the sims not representing our world of reality, with the current argument being about race, then lets address as well the opposite side of the coin.The idea of vampires being in the sim world but not in ours. Where's our green aliens? The blue people? The mermaids?
Yes, the sim world is missing a lot that we have here in our world. But our world is missing ideas that come naturally to the sim world as well. Maybe it's a good thing the sims don't have a voice of their own because they might accuse us of being racist for not having blue people.
I blame technological advancement over the years for allowing for this argument. With graphics getting better and better, and the tools to manipulate things more to our preference improved, it was just a matter of time before someone somewhere got their hands on a sims CAS and tried to actually create "themselves". Once we discovered we could do exactly that.... create ourselves in CAS, the game then became more about us and our world, and less about the sims and the sims world.
And here we are today reading a blog about EA/Maxis being accused of racism because the sims don't look like us.
This is Noah Noonday, the founder of my TS4 Build Newcrest Challenge. He's a full-blooded Potawatomi Algonquian Native American from the Ottawa Nation, a part of the Council of Three Fires. He married Cassandra Goth and they have two children; a daughter, Kewanee and a son, Payson.
He's supposed to be a direct descendant of Chief Noahquageshik Noonday of Michigan fame. There is a statue honoring Chief Noonday in Grand Rapids, Michigan. My husband and I both have Michigan Three Fires Native American ancestors and I wanted to create a Sim from this culture to honor them. This Sim is the best I could do two years ago on my old under-powered laptop.
I looked at a lot of photos online in an effort for accuracy, with hours of research. I did this because while my husband still looks somewhat Native American, he's not full-blood (1/8th) and neither am I. I look more like my German/Danish ancestors. I wanted my created Sim to look like a full-blood Potawatomi. I think he turned out quite well using the CAS assets we have available, but still not as accurate as I would like since his skin tone should have a more reddish undertone. I still love him though.
I would welcome many more skin tones, hairstyles and colors in the game for all races, but while creating Noah, the idea of the lack of accurate skin tones as having racist connotations never once entered my mind.
Personally, I think the major problem is - somewhere along the way in our sims' journey we stopped inviting the sims' world into ours, and started imposing our world into theirs.
Is there such a thing as an African American Sim? Or a Spanish Sim? They certainly don't speak Spanish. How much of our reality can we impose on a world of fantasy before that world isn't about fantasy anymore but instead becomes a graphic representation of our very own lives.
Also, this is a prime example of a one sided argument. If we are going to create an argument over the sims not representing our world of reality, with the current argument being about race, then lets address as well the opposite side of the coin.The idea of vampires being in the sim world but not in ours. Where's our green aliens? The blue people? The mermaids?
Yes, the sim world is missing a lot that we have here in our world. But our world is missing ideas that come naturally to the sim world as well. Maybe it's a good thing the sims don't have a voice of their own because they might accuse us of being racist for not having blue people.
I blame technological advancement over the years for allowing for this argument. With graphics getting better and better, and the tools to manipulate things more to our preference improved, it was just a matter of time before someone somewhere got their hands on a sims CAS and tried to actually create "themselves". Once we discovered we could do exactly that.... create ourselves in CAS, the game then became more about us and our world, and less about the sims and the sims world.
And here we are today reading a blog about EA/Maxis being accused of racism because the sims don't look like us.
ur so right, also i think ts4 marketing has had some fault on all this drama. they keep pushing the whole inclusivity, representation and escapism idea onto their players and so they opened the door to backlash and accusations cuz it's impossible to please everyone. but people is taking it too far. i still remember when games were about having good fun and not about doing yourself with precision. i mean it's fun to make a sim with precision but it shouldn't make anyone upset nor should anyone take it seriously, especially given how ts4's cas is one of it's best features alongside build mode. besides there's also tons of cc to help.
maxis main concern in the sims now should be working on the core of it, which means the sims AI, personality, actions, animations, you know all that stuff that will do for the gameplay.
Comments
But that's just it - this was never a game they were going to win. There's no middle ground to these people spamming Twitter on the internet. There was never any way that they could have stayed neutral, because to the people complaining, neutrality is complicity. So if EA just sat back and said nothing, people would rage about it. When Sims 3 was on the scene, this type of attitude was only just starting to emerge as dominant online, so of course they didn't need to make statements back then.
agree. this always happens anything black people get any small measure of validation . but besides that, we arent even asking for "race" to be included in the game . just better dark tones, so that dark skinned sims look nicer. i dont even think of my sims as a "race". they are all just sims. dark , medium and light. but sims at the end of the day.
including every real life culture isnt necessary, since the sims is not actually based on the universe we live in. its a whole other dimension. creating a sim who favors Native American people is just as possible as creating sims that resemble black/Asian/Mediterranean etc people.
It won't help people wanting a Sims 5 either will it? Having gone along the diversity route EA/Maxis will be wanting to prolong Sims 4 for as long as possible to make up the cash spent on it.
Of course they could make the Fall/Autumn expansion set in Africa. Fully justifiable then.
If I were EA/Maxis I would just employ those modders who have made a start on dark skin tones. They might learn something and those modders find jobs in the industry.
I actually tend to create more Latinx characters, specifically Latinos (male), because where I grew up I had a lot of Latinx friends, and later co-workers. (I'm your typical white bread old lady, BTW.) I think it's more of an inadvertent racism than anything blatant or even covert. "Never attribute to malice what can equally attributed to stupidity" (or ignorance).
My Sims are nothing like my current life. They're usually married (I'm now widowed since early May), they have nice houses (I'm an apartment dweller), they have good jobs (I'm retired), they have a lot of money (I'm on a fixed income)...sure, my Simself looks like me (maybe a little heavier since I've been losing weight) but her life is a lot different. I play my Sims not to represent myself as I am, but to play the "what if" game: what if I had married someone different, what if my husband and I had had kids, what if I'd become a famous writer, etc. I don't need an exact replica of myself. And the Sims world is a utopia of sorts; there's no racism, no sexism, no homophobia. You can have a Sim who is dirt-poor, then one day they win the lottery and get a million Simoleons, or you could just motherlode them that much money and freerealestate them into a mansion.
Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
It shouldnt be a "game" just to give decent skin tones that arent ashy (to many players who rely on them). Its the bare minimum. I admire the campaigning efforts of the people making their voices heard. Your voice isnt the only one that matters. Of course people would be angry about being ignored, for a matter that shouldnt be a problem in the first place. This "attitude" is paying customers demanding quality and theres nothing wrong (or childish) about it. It brings about action.
I'm actually more interested in makeup that works for a variety of skin tones than I am in skin tones themselves. But that's just my 2 Simoleons...
Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
This is so refreshing. My mood has soured a bit reading the responses that think being inclusive is a waste of time.
That's possibly true, but I think that had they not fed into specific agendas and kept more quiet on the issues, players may not have been seeing this as a race/culture issue. Had they pressed that this was a game of fantasy and not reality, in the sense that The Sims takes place in a fictional universe with occasional parallels, I don't think the expectations would be for precision, or seen in such a personal way. But they've been pushing the personal angle a lot lately, and that's just strolling into a mine field. That's what's going to make players more upset about what's not in the game because now it feels like a personal affront to them.
Sticky situation.
There are no "races" of human either, just colours, and yet here we are. Race is a made up concept. But it still matters. And representation matters. People should be able to see Sims who look like them and tell their stories.
And why is this an either/or thing? Who says one has to come at the expense of another? Give us diversity of colours and shapes, and personality, behaviour, etc.
Why do you get to decide what's "too far?" Why do you get to decide what's actually important?
When people say something is important to them, why do you feel the need to say "that actually doesn't matter, you should want this instead!" I can want both. I can want something different from you.
I'm just pointing out that this thread reads like a lot of white people telling BIPOC what racism is and what it isn't, and it's gross. Racism isn't an "opinion" though. That much is certain.
Even if sims 4's theme was "Fantasy and not reality" , that would not keep Black simmers from wanting skin tones that have warmth and dont look ashy. We would still want hairstyles featuring Ki n k y textures. TF? This point of view centers European as the default. It just does.
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No. It doesn't. You're projecting into my comment to make it about that. In other posts, I've said several times that those skin tones are long overdue to be fixed. They should have been fixed before they were put into the game, it was insulting and embarrassing for those to be presented as a finished product.
In my last couple of posts, I was referring specifically to the way The Sims games have been marketed regarding putting a stamp on what the game was about or contained and what actual skin diversity they had and how the promotion of personal representation means a large range of accountability.
I have always wanted more curly, frizzy, wavy, thick and kinky textures because my own hair falls into three or more of those categories. I used CC in Sims 2 and hated the options in Sims 3 because they included a color wheel yet were completely absent in diverse hair textures and styles. I couldn't come even remotely close to creating a Sim self. In Sims 4 CAS demo, I saw the first signs of actual hair diversity and it's one of the major things that pulled me into getting TS4.
And we always need more diverse hair styles, definitely, but in my previous posts I was specifically addressing skin tones. And worldwide, there are many, many shades and tones ranging light, dark, and in-between, that the game has not even come close to representing.
Edit: Omg. There's a word in here that goes from being censored to uncensored and back again, "K inky". For eff sake, stop the censorship madness!
Oh dear. Zoe is as far from native American as it's possible to be. Patel is a common Indian name - in the country of India. I guess this is why Native Americans prefer not to be called Native Indians.......
I think some perspective is in order. This is just a game, folks. It's not life and death, it's entertainment. Participation is voluntary--if there are elements to the game that you don't approve of, no one is forcing you to play it.
Yes I always thought she was meant to be more of Indian heritage than Native American myself.
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Hopefully you might find something to suit you when they reveal them this Fall/Autumn.
We aren't allowed to go political on the Forum.
@Chazzzy What was preventing us before from using the parameters within CAS to create black sims?
You see where this is going?
You can create almost any kind of sim in the game as it is but people will always expect a lot more from a video game for some reason.
I think it's double standards to say "just use the tools we have in CAS" to a person wanting better options for Native Americans but not say the same to a person wanting better options to make a black sim.
But without Custom Content, Black sims have lousy skin color options. That's not something a typical end user can adjust. I can adjust lip shape and size, I can adjust nose slope and bridge height. I can adjust the corners of the eyes and their width, I can even mess with brow angles a little bit. But if there's no existing skin tone that works for the look I want, I can't do anything about that without custom content.
Now, are the sliders and morphs we have in the Base Game capable of creating a believable Native American? I'll admit I've never tried, I usually roll with what the randomizer gives me with just a few tweaks here and there if something starts to bother me (Hello, Vlad). So I'm willing to take the word of someone who has tried and who has more of a stake in their ability to create Sims that represent a specific ethnicity.
(Though I will point out that even Daz, which has been much better with representation with their Genesis 8 figures than previous generations, isn't actually the creator of the "people of the world" morph sets. That's SickleYield, a very talented vendor who sells add-on morphs for the Genesis figures through the Daz (and Renderosity) marketplace.)
Well yeah. I partially understand that. What I don't understand is the demand to be able to recreate yourself in the game with as much detail as possible.
Base game male hair is also lousy. I can't find a single one that looks like me. Male makeup? Not a lot of options either. But I'm not going to sit here and call EA h o m o phobic because the makeup sucks.
I just choose the options that are the closest to what I want to create. And that's fine. It's still a video game.
I guess at least that's how I see it. I respect everyone who has a different opinion.
I just don't see a reason to be like "I have black hair with brown undertones but the game only has blue undertones! EA what is this discrimination?"
I have many black sims, light and dark skinned, with the original Maxis-created skin tones and I think they look great and unique.
Great for you. There are about five skin colors I use if I actually bother to modify skin color. 1 pale, 3 tan, 1 dark. Everything else looks off to me, and apparently to a lot of others.
And Lousy doesn't have to refer to the quality. It can refer to the number of options that actually were of quality.
Is there such a thing as an African American Sim? Or a Spanish Sim? They certainly don't speak Spanish. How much of our reality can we impose on a world of fantasy before that world isn't about fantasy anymore but instead becomes a graphic representation of our very own lives.
Also, this is a prime example of a one sided argument. If we are going to create an argument over the sims not representing our world of reality, with the current argument being about race, then lets address as well the opposite side of the coin.The idea of vampires being in the sim world but not in ours. Where's our green aliens? The blue people? The mermaids?
Yes, the sim world is missing a lot that we have here in our world. But our world is missing ideas that come naturally to the sim world as well. Maybe it's a good thing the sims don't have a voice of their own because they might accuse us of being racist for not having blue people.
I blame technological advancement over the years for allowing for this argument. With graphics getting better and better, and the tools to manipulate things more to our preference improved, it was just a matter of time before someone somewhere got their hands on a sims CAS and tried to actually create "themselves". Once we discovered we could do exactly that.... create ourselves in CAS, the game then became more about us and our world, and less about the sims and the sims world.
And here we are today reading a blog about EA/Maxis being accused of racism because the sims don't look like us.
He's supposed to be a direct descendant of Chief Noahquageshik Noonday of Michigan fame. There is a statue honoring Chief Noonday in Grand Rapids, Michigan. My husband and I both have Michigan Three Fires Native American ancestors and I wanted to create a Sim from this culture to honor them. This Sim is the best I could do two years ago on my old under-powered laptop.
I looked at a lot of photos online in an effort for accuracy, with hours of research. I did this because while my husband still looks somewhat Native American, he's not full-blood (1/8th) and neither am I. I look more like my German/Danish ancestors. I wanted my created Sim to look like a full-blood Potawatomi. I think he turned out quite well using the CAS assets we have available, but still not as accurate as I would like since his skin tone should have a more reddish undertone. I still love him though.
I would welcome many more skin tones, hairstyles and colors in the game for all races, but while creating Noah, the idea of the lack of accurate skin tones as having racist connotations never once entered my mind.
Happy Simming!
ur so right, also i think ts4 marketing has had some fault on all this drama. they keep pushing the whole inclusivity, representation and escapism idea onto their players and so they opened the door to backlash and accusations cuz it's impossible to please everyone. but people is taking it too far. i still remember when games were about having good fun and not about doing yourself with precision. i mean it's fun to make a sim with precision but it shouldn't make anyone upset nor should anyone take it seriously, especially given how ts4's cas is one of it's best features alongside build mode. besides there's also tons of cc to help.
maxis main concern in the sims now should be working on the core of it, which means the sims AI, personality, actions, animations, you know all that stuff that will do for the gameplay.