September 18 - Everyone ready for the Friday Highlight? It's ready for you here!

The Lack of Representation of Gay Male Couples is Disappointing

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  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 32,001 Member
    edited September 8
    I have respectfully stayed out of this thread other than my one response to someone.

    Maybe my comprehension is off, and if it is then sorry, but what I gather from this thread is the OP and others want validation from Maxis by creating more premade gay couples. (males). With all due respect, may I ask why? I'm asking Because I don't actually ever play premades in any of these games since way back in The Sims when I played the Goths etc. I also may have tried a few families in TS2 such as the widow mother and a few others. But I never actually finished playing them if that makes sense. Never continued with them through the generations etc. Legacy is not my thing. I'm asking because once I figured out I could build my own towns/Sims/stories I was done with Maxis premades and that was real fast in TS1. I did start the stories in the TS2 but didn't even bother playing any of them in TS3.

    Do that many people actually only play Maxis premades so much that these things, gay, straight, lesbian, ethnic, gender etc. really matter so much to them that Maxis would have to decide on each and every household what percentage they are going to make gay, or straight or family and or roomates and or couples and or skin color? That seems a bit too much to have to also do to rightly divide how many white or black, Asian, or brown or whatever, and sexual prefernces etc. to keep up with when they can't even create packs don't have the main features broken on day one. I can't say this is a priority for me, since I learned I can do all this stuff myself and would prefer to do it all myself. Just give me the tools and I will do all this myself. Premades since around 2004 have been the last thing on my mind after I had tried TS1's premades and was stuck with who they made them out to be, I was always almost afraid to play Maxis premades because I might mess up their story, and wanted to play my own stories. I'm not sure I actually understand the need for validation. I'm not saying any of you are wrong, but for me, I'm going to kick out Maxis premades, they always get the prime locations, and I'm going to delete in TS4 99% of the Sims in the bin, and I'm going to tell my own stories because my DNA is 'challenge everything' that was on the old EA logo. My DNA is tear down and rebuild, remove Maxis stuff(SC) and build my own, 95% of the time. ETA: Please do not misunderstand what I'm saying but to be fair to everyone, every where, they probably should start coming up with a percentage of all these things. (not the town generator but premades) but as for me I would much rather have tools that allow me to do whatever I want, all gay, or straight and or black and or white or Asian etc. so I can maintain my own game rather than play Maxis' game. Hope that all makes sense.
    Post edited by Cinebar on
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 5,468 Member
    From the first Sims 1 you have had to make your Sims prefer a same sex relationship by you relating one to another in conversation etc. It's been made easier in Sims 4. It was referred to in an article I posted in this thread earlier.
  • SimtaniumSimtanium Posts: 118 Member
    @Cinebar That's Okay, you're perfectly entitled to have your perspective and to post it. I agree with you that there is more important things the game needs, that pre-mades aren't all that important as you can make your own and that looking for representation in a game isn't always the best idea. However, EA are going to make more pre-mades for TS4 (presumably, anyway) so it wouldn't take any extra effort to make one of the families a gay couple. I'm not asking them to make a certain percentage gay, I'm just pointing out that there is a disparity between female and male same-sex couples in this game and with EA selling this game as being about inclusivity and them stating their support of gay rights, I feel like they've opened themselves up to this criticism.

    If they don't add any gay couples I actually wouldn't be angry or upset, but if they do add another lesbian couple and not a gay couple I would be pretty miffed. This is something I expect from other video games and TV shows/movies (as I've explained earlier, it's usually considered "safer" to add in lesbian couples) but the Sims has always been more daring when it came to including gay options.

    I feel like if this isn't something on your radar you probably won't understand my point or get this thread, which is fine. It's not a topic of concern for everyone. But I just noticed it and it stuck out to me, and I often get irritated at the type of (and lack of) representation gay males get so I wanted to make a thread about it. :smile:
  • Msbubbles26Msbubbles26 Posts: 2 New Member
    `

    LGBT is LGBT is LGBT.

    My problem starts when not only people look at EA for not representing but continue to say "its the straight 'x' fault" or something hateful-that just breeds hate. There are ways to get the point across but those aren't one of them.

    You want people to be silenced when they are being respectful however you ALLOW people with hate speech and assumptions and even praise them.

    As LGBT-i have many issues with EA, but equality isn't one of them. Not only do they give you the option [and show that off which imo is the same as representing] they made one of the biggest inclusive changes by changing the anatomy options for females and males [feminine figure for men and vise versa for women.

    I was totally on board and could see why people may want representation however-i dont support trashing one sexuality to somewhat raise another. When the game is this diverse and gives you such leeway for sexuality and even being able to have meshed feel of anatomy like i said above theres no need to feel left out. They gave us the canvas. "Premades" are things they make. Thats THEIR creativity. You ever ask a simmer why they only make gay oriented sims? Or how about ethnicity? No. Because thats the simulation they want. Developers or not they have their own style, they have their own 'sim needs' why judge it? Why assume hatred Or double standards?

    There is so much to say wrong about EA and the way they develop, but one thing i LOVE is their inclusive options on sexuality, figures and even being able to make families with same sex couples period. Men can be men but can also dabble in the other pond, have the same clothes and hair styles etc and same for females. We had none of this back then and there was ZERO representation trans sims and now i can finally simulate that whenever i want.


    All of this gives me what i couldnt have in my childhood. Normalization. I dont want a celebration. I dont want discrimination. I just want LGBT options to be available and to be a normal everyday thing in my sim world and they gave us that.


    All in all-to the OP, i support your feelings of wanting representation. I do not agree on hate speech, being passive aggressive with those who dont agree or being mad if a different sexuality is represented even if its a step closer to acceptance. To me-acting like lesbians are represented just because [allegedly] there's a double standard straight guy somewhere is ridiculous, discriminating and just rude.


    Its like this-Disney movies dont show alot of LGBT, Im a female however if there were only gay male couples being shown in disney movies or in general id be so happy. Regardless of gender, or sexuality-finally seeing acceptance is what i care about and i see that here with this game.
  • SimtaniumSimtanium Posts: 118 Member
    @Msbubbles26 Let me go through your post step-by-step.

    Unlike you, I don't subscribe to hive mentality. I don't consider myself a member of the LGBT community as it is now only about having a certain world and political view, and I am routinely told that I'm "not really gay" by other gay men for having an opinion that differs from them. I'm simply a man who is gay. And even if this wasn't the case, your statement "LGBT is LGBT is LGBT" isn't right - I don't know anyone who would feel that only representing, say, bisexuals would also be sufficient representation for lesbians and trans individuals.

    Can you point out where I have said "its the straight 'x' fault" or anything hateful, please?

    I don't want ANYONE to be silenced. The only person I asked to no longer comment on my thread was the one who was writing trollish one-two answers to anything I wrote, and repeating them. I have routinely said that I respect everyone else's opinion and that they are entitled to post them. I would, again, like you to point out where I have allowed and praised hate speech - as I have seen NO hate speech.

    Can you explain how allowing people to dress male Sims in female clothing and female Sims in male clothing has ANYTHING to do with my topic of the under-representation of gay male couples? I had zero interest in this update for my own game, but I was happy that it came for other people who it meant something to, as I realise that this game isn't only catered to me. I simply cannot understand how you conflate making transgender Sims/gender-non conforming Sims with same-sex couples, but I guess that comes back to you saying "LGBT is LGBT." Well, let me tell you - it is NOT the same. Because they have done a good job at allowing people to play with gender options doesn't mean that I'm going to shut up about the disparity between male and female same-sex couples.

    Again, can I ask where I was "trashing" a sexuality? So stating that female same-sex couples are represented far more than male same sex couples, or stating that female same-sex couples are deemed more "acceptable" in modern society (which was actually a commentary on the harmful view many have of lesbian couples), is now "trashing" them or being "hateful"?

    Why should I judge the Sims teams' tastes - so according to you, that they create female sex-couples and use them in their advertising about 75% more than male same-sex couples, is just their taste and art-style and therefore I shouldn't judge it? Sorry, I am going to. If they advertise this game about being gay-friendly, and about being open to everyone, show me you aren't scared of representing two men in a relationship together.

    Again, conflating men being able to wear women's clothes and hair with same sex-couples. Please don't do that. It's offensive to me.

    I'm glad that you are able to see what you have wanted since childhood - normalisation and representation. I, however, do not have this because male same-sex couples are shown without families and are omitted from advertising. As someone who struggled with my sexuality and feeling normal, I would love to see EA make a normal gay couple who don't rely on stereotypes and who have a family. Which was the WHOLE POINT of me making this thread.

    There was no hate speech. There was probably some passive-aggressiveness directed at those who kept saying the same things over and over. Also, representing and normalising female same-sex couples does not bring normalising and accepting male same-sex couples a step closer. The only thing that could do that would be to include gay couples at the rate they do lesbian couples, and add diversity and families to them, like they also do with lesbian couples. You seem to have thing that same-sex couples are just same-sex couples, regardless of them being male or female. You have to realise that male and female same-sex couples are viewed VERY different and have different stigmas and associations - which, again, this thread was meant to highlight.

    Sorry you feel that thinking there's a double standard between male and female S/S couples is rude and discriminatory but it's my viewpoint.

    I'm glad you feel that way, and would be happy if they only showed gay couples. I feel differently to you, and if it was reversed and they only showed male same-sex couples, I'd comment on that, too.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 32,001 Member
    edited September 9
    Simtanium wrote: »
    @Cinebar That's Okay, you're perfectly entitled to have your perspective and to post it. I agree with you that there is more important things the game needs, that pre-mades aren't all that important as you can make your own and that looking for representation in a game isn't always the best idea. However, EA are going to make more pre-mades for TS4 (presumably, anyway) so it wouldn't take any extra effort to make one of the families a gay couple. I'm not asking them to make a certain percentage gay, I'm just pointing out that there is a disparity between female and male same-sex couples in this game and with EA selling this game as being about inclusivity and them stating their support of gay rights, I feel like they've opened themselves up to this criticism.

    If they don't add any gay couples I actually wouldn't be angry or upset, but if they do add another lesbian couple and not a gay couple I would be pretty miffed. This is something I expect from other video games and TV shows/movies (as I've explained earlier, it's usually considered "safer" to add in lesbian couples) but the Sims has always been more daring when it came to including gay options.

    I feel like if this isn't something on your radar you probably won't understand my point or get this thread, which is fine. It's not a topic of concern for everyone. But I just noticed it and it stuck out to me, and I often get irritated at the type of (and lack of) representation gay males get so I wanted to make a thread about it. :smile:

    I assume one or two developers work on the families they put in the worlds. Perhaps you could speak to them directly on Twitter or FB or whereever, and get an answer. I know not all developers actually build the lots and or the worlds, so maybe premades are the duty of specific developers and not assigned to all developers to add in premades. I would think it would be good idea to talk to the developers who build the worlds and premades, not the developers who work on 3D models such as objects etc. You might get the answers you want and or bring it to their attention. Maybe they just have so much to do (I have no idea) they never really even thought about it with each new world they build.
    ETA: Or maybe it might be a good idea to show them the lack of these Sims compared to female couples, and tag SimGuruLyndsay (GM) or the creative director. Maybe it's just an oversight. Maybe none of them even realise they are building more female couples than male couples. I know many were aggravated by the name generator which was set to assign Asian names about ten times more often than any other names. I think a dev said he/she was at fault for that name generator for being so out of whack and no longer inclusive to other names. Maybe it really is an oversight.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 7,133 Member
    edited September 9
    sorry wrong thread thought this was the lgr one
    Post edited by comicsforlife on
    the sims 4 isn't getting new whims right now and I think they have dropped them all together if we want new whims in sims 4 we need to tweet the gurus and tell them we like whims
  • Msbubbles26Msbubbles26 Posts: 2 New Member
    ~

    Supporting your wants for representation? Yes. Praising hate speech? No.

    The "its straight 'x' fault" was to the people you praised, you cannot praise someone's hate speech and then say you arent apart of it hence why at the end i said 'to the OP'. Though that isnt entirely your fault since it was a vague statement.


    Apparently wanting acceptance across the board and not caring about someones color or sexuality or anything else is hive mind? Its a different side of the same coin. Proving my point that anyone who doesnt agree with you, you have to be insulting or passive aggressive or toxic.


    You wanted to silence people being respectful but praise those acting disgusting. If the EA team said any of the sort, they'd be canceled so why is it okay to be aggressive or praise hate speech when its for YOUR agenda but whenever someone else does so, its awful?



    You are right, different couples, different races, different ages are treated differently. Im sorry that gay, is gay, is gay to me. Coming from a place where being gay of any kind is illegal still today, and having people suffer for it and then coming to the internet in one of the most inclusive games out there regarding sexuality is insane to me. If you want me to look at gay men differently than to gay women, how is that not segregating? Different side, same coin. You are a gay dude? Cool. You are a gay woman? Cool. Im sorry that i dont segregate.


    "Im sorry its rude and discriminating but its my viewpoint" Okay? You refuse to see any other person's point but expect others to cater to you specifically. EA listens very little to critical feedback all around, and are not very creative. Even though they have given YOU the option to make it your own? What about the folks who had NO options at ALL, and had to mod in those options?


    It took years and years for them to add more diverse, darker skintones but had a hell of a lot of lighter skintones, to which to this day i still have to mod in.


    You are allowed to want representation [As I've said], HOWEVER i called out how you wanted to act passive aggressive to respectful people, but praise those with hate speech.


    if you think someone saying 'I disagree' is trolling....I'd save the passive aggression for people that actually are hateful, spiteful and toxic. Though you chose to PRAISE them because it was feeding your agenda.


    Also notice how I don't have to insult others to get my point across, nor make myself feel more validated.


    Again you are allowed to want what you want, you are entitled to that however i dont support you because you praise others' hate speech, are passive aggressive to those who disagree respectfully, and refuse to see any other point than your own, so why start a conversation?


    You want EA to represent gay males? G o f o r I t. But dont praise toxicity-you get more bees with honey.


    Because ive seen your attitude towards anyone who doesnt agree and bring up actual points, i see no reason to argue nor to debate.


    Remember people, just because you want acceptance, or dont segregate, doesnt make you hive minded.

    Im sorry i treat everyone the same, that i see everyone the same, and dont need to put down others to raise myself up.

    You simply missed MY point that id be more than happy with representation across the board, however my support stopped once well ive stated it enough now.

    Im sorry i dont think a game that allows you to impregnate, be pregnant, have both masculine and feminine body types for both genders, all equal options for clothing, pregnancy and asthetics for all genders, and can even essentially be sexually fluid- not inclusive. Essentially all sims are fluid They just so happen to be with a certain gender at a given time, however considering you can have 30 partners, all different genders and maybe even alien partners-sorry. I cant be offended.


    How can anyone NOT just say 'i disagree'? if you give points you are attacked, or have people be hateful.
  • BloodValkyrieBloodValkyrie Posts: 232 Member
    ~

    Supporting your wants for representation? Yes. Praising hate speech? No.

    The "its straight 'x' fault" was to the people you praised, you cannot praise someone's hate speech and then say you arent apart of it hence why at the end i said 'to the OP'. Though that isnt entirely your fault since it was a vague statement.


    Apparently wanting acceptance across the board and not caring about someones color or sexuality or anything else is hive mind? Its a different side of the same coin. Proving my point that anyone who doesnt agree with you, you have to be insulting or passive aggressive or toxic.


    You wanted to silence people being respectful but praise those acting disgusting. If the EA team said any of the sort, they'd be canceled so why is it okay to be aggressive or praise hate speech when its for YOUR agenda but whenever someone else does so, its awful?



    You are right, different couples, different races, different ages are treated differently. Im sorry that gay, is gay, is gay to me. Coming from a place where being gay of any kind is illegal still today, and having people suffer for it and then coming to the internet in one of the most inclusive games out there regarding sexuality is insane to me. If you want me to look at gay men differently than to gay women, how is that not segregating? Different side, same coin. You are a gay dude? Cool. You are a gay woman? Cool. Im sorry that i dont segregate.


    "Im sorry its rude and discriminating but its my viewpoint" Okay? You refuse to see any other person's point but expect others to cater to you specifically. EA listens very little to critical feedback all around, and are not very creative. Even though they have given YOU the option to make it your own? What about the folks who had NO options at ALL, and had to mod in those options?


    It took years and years for them to add more diverse, darker skintones but had a hell of a lot of lighter skintones, to which to this day i still have to mod in.


    You are allowed to want representation [As I've said], HOWEVER i called out how you wanted to act passive aggressive to respectful people, but praise those with hate speech.


    if you think someone saying 'I disagree' is trolling....I'd save the passive aggression for people that actually are hateful, spiteful and toxic. Though you chose to PRAISE them because it was feeding your agenda.


    Also notice how I don't have to insult others to get my point across, nor make myself feel more validated.


    Again you are allowed to want what you want, you are entitled to that however i dont support you because you praise others' hate speech, are passive aggressive to those who disagree respectfully, and refuse to see any other point than your own, so why start a conversation?


    You want EA to represent gay males? G o f o r I t. But dont praise toxicity-you get more bees with honey.


    Because ive seen your attitude towards anyone who doesnt agree and bring up actual points, i see no reason to argue nor to debate.


    Remember people, just because you want acceptance, or dont segregate, doesnt make you hive minded.

    Im sorry i treat everyone the same, that i see everyone the same, and dont need to put down others to raise myself up.

    You simply missed MY point that id be more than happy with representation across the board, however my support stopped once well ive stated it enough now.

    Im sorry i dont think a game that allows you to impregnate, be pregnant, have both masculine and feminine body types for both genders, all equal options for clothing, pregnancy and asthetics for all genders, and can even essentially be sexually fluid- not inclusive. Essentially all sims are fluid They just so happen to be with a certain gender at a given time, however considering you can have 30 partners, all different genders and maybe even alien partners-sorry. I cant be offended.


    How can anyone NOT just say 'i disagree'? if you give points you are attacked, or have people be hateful.

    I don't think there's anything left to say. This post right here put everything on the table. Goodness.
  • To7mTo7m Posts: 5,291 Member
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    I disagree.

    Me too. And Im gay 🤷🏼‍♂️

    —T
  • knuckledusterknuckleduster Posts: 1,257 Member
    I have to say, having played since Sims 1 - there has never been an issue with being able to play same-sex relationships in this game series.

    Even the Servos in Sims 2, once you create one - can become romantically involved with the same sex.

    They can't even get the base game right in this version of the series - they don't seem to care to listen to the simmers who have paid for the games for years - you can already play same sex - you can already dress the way you want - there is no real depth to gameplay and maybe that is what is lacking the most in this version.
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