February 21 - Everyone ready for the Friday Highlight? It's ready for you here!

Mouselline’s Mafia Game - Mafia Win

Comments

  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 55,945 Member
    edited February 12
    I love that you stand up and say what you need to say, DeKay. It's one of the best things about you and why I respect you. I don't mind that we disagree, and concede that you have to know more about this than I do, so I'm prepared to eat crow, but only if I ever have reason to be convinced. Like you, I don't back down just to keep the peace... I have to actually be convinced. I'd rather disagree honestly, than have everyone agree just to be agreeable without thinking things through or having any reasons of their own.

    But I must try to be less tiresome about it if it genuinely irks you. If it's worth the effort of tabulating past game results to see about accuracy rates, that's fine too. The last thing I would want to do is insult your intelligence for real, because I respect it and it's one of the best things about you, besides your gutsiness.

    But call me out if I get out of line. I don't mean any harm and would rather be corrected, publicly if necessary, than cut off from the fun. I still think it's pure chance and speculation on the first round, but you are welcome to prove me wrong and then I'll be a believer. But I respect you too much to tell you I believe it if I don't. Deal?

    Ah, yes. Let's just agree to disagree. It hurts my brain and soul every time I hear you say this is a game of chance. I've put in a lot of effort to get good at the game by observing people so not all of it is luck even on the first round.

    How do I put it...? Imagine if you are a writer or musician, and you have worked hard to craft your work and to get it out there and somehow you managed to get the attention of a media and started to me popular. But then everyone says that you just become popular due to pure luck and nothing much. Doesn't really feel good, does it? As a third person's view, yes, it does look like luck is involved, but you yourself know that you have put in effort and it was well deserved. So it's kinda like that for me.

    Tho, you are right about speculation. That is what mafia is about. There's nothing wrong about speculating, cuz that's the whole point of the game. Is to get people to talk and then you decide whether they are totally making something up cuz they are actually mafia and trying to blend in, or if they are actually townie but they are just trying to come up with some theories whether it's right or wrong.


    Plus, if mafia games were just based on chance, then they would play this game in the casino, right? :D

    So are you up for a round two?
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    8EKmmpc.gif
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member
    Mouselline wrote: »
    Not to butt in with your disagreement, but I have to go with Dekay on this one. Yes the first round can be partly luck since some people just go with their instinct, but as you saw in this game you saw that people were suspicious of NASCAR and Rose for good reasons, and they weren’t suspicious of you for certain reasons. If it was luck, Dekay and Alexa wouldnt have pointed out the things that make Rose and NASCAR suspicous like them randomly getting off. It takes strategy and remembering how people are like as mafia and how they are as town. If it was all luck this game wouldn’t be so popular

    Nah, it's cool to have more conversation about it.

    But I'm suprised by this: "as you saw in this game you saw that people were suspicious of NASCAR and Rose for good reasons, and they weren’t suspicious of you for certain reasons."

    I couldn't agree that people were suspicious of the innocent, for good reasons. They were contrived, imaginary reasons that turned out to be patently false. How would that convince me of the validity of the methods used to come to those false conclusions?

    Even if one of them had happened to be the mafia, I still could not agree that the methods and reasons were even remotely sensible and rational. But it's not possible to have sensible, rational methods for determining who is the guilty party, in the first round. If someone could demonstrate say, even a consistent 50% success rate at divining the guilty party in the first round, I'd be a believer in their psychic ability maybe, but unless they could show me some reasons that hold up to scrutiny, it would indeed be psychic ability rather than reason, I was capitulating to.

    And if others are annoyed or angry about this discussion, that's not my intention, and I'm certainly not. But I'm pretty surprised that being suspicious of people who were in fact innocent, could even be used as evidence that the system of thinking that led to false conclusions, is in fact accurate.
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member
    There may be a problem with words here: when I say reason, or reasonable, or "for reasons" I tend to mean logical reasoning, not merely 'emotional states prompting action." But if someone is using "reason" to mean "motivation" that would mean we're talking at cross purposes. Using the same word to mean different things.
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • AlexaKryAlexaKry Posts: 1,461 Member
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member


    I found a fascinating work on the properties explored in how Mafia works and they are worth delving into on their own merit, but an excerpt here acknowledges the point that you are all trying to make, that it's not all about the math only, that there are psychological aspects to the game in real play, also. And I couldn't agree more about the "witch-hunt" dynamic. Note that it exists and motivates people. That doesn't make it rational or accurate, however.

    "In every realistic Mafia game, there is a psychological part. A dry mathematical model may be a backbone of a more complex one, but certainly, is not enough to describe a real game. During course of play, citizens gain some information — either by discovering another’s identity by themselves, or trying to catch messages. Furthermore, voting may be subject to some kind of witch-hunt mentality. Moreover, rarely are all players the same —usually there are ones with higher and lower influence on the others. All these processes may be investigated mathematically, or numerically. There is still a lot of challenge in finding an appropriate model and obtaining the results. Comparison of the theory with the experiment may be crucial. Out of author’s personal experience, in games when players don’t know each other, usually a random person is killed (e.g. a person who is always nervous, not just because of being in the mafia). When they know each other very well, very dim signals can be used to reveal one’s identity."
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member
    The mathematics of poker are pretty simple, but the game is all about psychology and bluff. So I agree that games can be fun and valid, that are all about psychology and bluff. But in online poker, especially if no personal interaction is possible, the observation methods used in real face-to-face poker, don't work, and it's a pretty boring card game of mostly chance.

    It would be really cool if someone did have even a 50% accuracy rate at determining the guilty party, over enough games to be a large enough sample size.
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member
    wow, just looked and found out that rabbit hole goes way deeper than I could have realized! It really is huge, this game! Gonna go see if I can educate myself on it, see if I can learn to play it other places, and maybe sometime be a decent addition to it here. Peace!
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member
    edited February 12
    DeKay wrote: »
    I love that you stand up and say what you need to say, DeKay. It's one of the best things about you and why I respect you. I don't mind that we disagree, and concede that you have to know more about this than I do, so I'm prepared to eat crow, but only if I ever have reason to be convinced. Like you, I don't back down just to keep the peace... I have to actually be convinced. I'd rather disagree honestly, than have everyone agree just to be agreeable without thinking things through or having any reasons of their own.

    But I must try to be less tiresome about it if it genuinely irks you. If it's worth the effort of tabulating past game results to see about accuracy rates, that's fine too. The last thing I would want to do is insult your intelligence for real, because I respect it and it's one of the best things about you, besides your gutsiness.

    But call me out if I get out of line. I don't mean any harm and would rather be corrected, publicly if necessary, than cut off from the fun. I still think it's pure chance and speculation on the first round, but you are welcome to prove me wrong and then I'll be a believer. But I respect you too much to tell you I believe it if I don't. Deal?

    Ah, yes. Let's just agree to disagree. It hurts my brain and soul every time I hear you say this is a game of chance. I've put in a lot of effort to get good at the game by observing people so not all of it is luck even on the first round.

    How do I put it...? Imagine if you are a writer or musician, and you have worked hard to craft your work and to get it out there and somehow you managed to get the attention of a media and started to me popular. But then everyone says that you just become popular due to pure luck and nothing much. Doesn't really feel good, does it? As a third person's view, yes, it does look like luck is involved, but you yourself know that you have put in effort and it was well deserved. So it's kinda like that for me.

    Tho, you are right about speculation. That is what mafia is about. There's nothing wrong about speculating, cuz that's the whole point of the game. Is to get people to talk and then you decide whether they are totally making something up cuz they are actually mafia and trying to blend in, or if they are actually townie but they are just trying to come up with some theories whether it's right or wrong.


    Plus, if mafia games were just based on chance, then they would play this game in the casino, right? :D

    So are you up for a round two?


    Sure, if you'll have me, but I think I'm going to go learn about it some other places too. And I am seriously sorry I hurt your soul over this. I prefer games that don't rely on social anything. Logic and proofs are my bae. But I took a look at some big mafia places and wow, it was like scanning a huge gaming convention and wanting to run away fast. It was overwhelming. So I will at least try to get my feet wet and understand what people love about it.

    Don't give them ideas (casinos)! But casinos would have to have a pay-in that most people wouldn't get back, and hope to make their money in little trickles from a large amount of players and games, each of which nets a profit in aggregate.
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 55,945 Member
    Mouselline wrote: »
    Not to butt in with your disagreement, but I have to go with Dekay on this one. Yes the first round can be partly luck since some people just go with their instinct, but as you saw in this game you saw that people were suspicious of NASCAR and Rose for good reasons, and they weren’t suspicious of you for certain reasons. If it was luck, Dekay and Alexa wouldnt have pointed out the things that make Rose and NASCAR suspicous like them randomly getting off. It takes strategy and remembering how people are like as mafia and how they are as town. If it was all luck this game wouldn’t be so popular

    Nah, it's cool to have more conversation about it.

    But I'm suprised by this: "as you saw in this game you saw that people were suspicious of NASCAR and Rose for good reasons, and they weren’t suspicious of you for certain reasons."

    I couldn't agree that people were suspicious of the innocent, for good reasons. They were contrived, imaginary reasons that turned out to be patently false. How would that convince me of the validity of the methods used to come to those false conclusions?

    Even if one of them had happened to be the mafia, I still could not agree that the methods and reasons were even remotely sensible and rational. But it's not possible to have sensible, rational methods for determining who is the guilty party, in the first round. If someone could demonstrate say, even a consistent 50% success rate at divining the guilty party in the first round, I'd be a believer in their psychic ability maybe, but unless they could show me some reasons that hold up to scrutiny, it would indeed be psychic ability rather than reason, I was capitulating to.

    And if others are annoyed or angry about this discussion, that's not my intention, and I'm certainly not. But I'm pretty surprised that being suspicious of people who were in fact innocent, could even be used as evidence that the system of thinking that led to false conclusions, is in fact accurate.

    Yeah, I'm fine with you thinking this. Mafia games are mostly like this, which is why makes it fun cuz people are pointing fingers at each other! There is no luck involved but rather false accusations.

    The only instance that you can really use true accusations is if you are a cop (a power role) and you investigate someone and you find out that they are scum (confirmed by the host). You haven't a played a setup like that before. But even so, the cop usually investigates at night, so you won't get this kinda result on Day 1.

    I found a fascinating work on the properties explored in how Mafia works and they are worth delving into on their own merit, but an excerpt here acknowledges the point that you are all trying to make, that it's not all about the math only, that there are psychological aspects to the game in real play, also. And I couldn't agree more about the "witch-hunt" dynamic. Note that it exists and motivates people. That doesn't make it rational or accurate, however.

    "In every realistic Mafia game, there is a psychological part. A dry mathematical model may be a backbone of a more complex one, but certainly, is not enough to describe a real game. During course of play, citizens gain some information — either by discovering another’s identity by themselves, or trying to catch messages. Furthermore, voting may be subject to some kind of witch-hunt mentality. Moreover, rarely are all players the same —usually there are ones with higher and lower influence on the others. All these processes may be investigated mathematically, or numerically. There is still a lot of challenge in finding an appropriate model and obtaining the results. Comparison of the theory with the experiment may be crucial. Out of author’s personal experience, in games when players don’t know each other, usually a random person is killed (e.g. a person who is always nervous, not just because of being in the mafia). When they know each other very well, very dim signals can be used to reveal one’s identity."

    Haha, I remembered my first game where obviously I didn't know anyone but I did manage to find suspicion on both mafias by Day 2. :D I always joked that I might be psychic.
    DeKay wrote: »
    I love that you stand up and say what you need to say, DeKay. It's one of the best things about you and why I respect you. I don't mind that we disagree, and concede that you have to know more about this than I do, so I'm prepared to eat crow, but only if I ever have reason to be convinced. Like you, I don't back down just to keep the peace... I have to actually be convinced. I'd rather disagree honestly, than have everyone agree just to be agreeable without thinking things through or having any reasons of their own.

    But I must try to be less tiresome about it if it genuinely irks you. If it's worth the effort of tabulating past game results to see about accuracy rates, that's fine too. The last thing I would want to do is insult your intelligence for real, because I respect it and it's one of the best things about you, besides your gutsiness.

    But call me out if I get out of line. I don't mean any harm and would rather be corrected, publicly if necessary, than cut off from the fun. I still think it's pure chance and speculation on the first round, but you are welcome to prove me wrong and then I'll be a believer. But I respect you too much to tell you I believe it if I don't. Deal?

    Ah, yes. Let's just agree to disagree. It hurts my brain and soul every time I hear you say this is a game of chance. I've put in a lot of effort to get good at the game by observing people so not all of it is luck even on the first round.

    How do I put it...? Imagine if you are a writer or musician, and you have worked hard to craft your work and to get it out there and somehow you managed to get the attention of a media and started to me popular. But then everyone says that you just become popular due to pure luck and nothing much. Doesn't really feel good, does it? As a third person's view, yes, it does look like luck is involved, but you yourself know that you have put in effort and it was well deserved. So it's kinda like that for me.

    Tho, you are right about speculation. That is what mafia is about. There's nothing wrong about speculating, cuz that's the whole point of the game. Is to get people to talk and then you decide whether they are totally making something up cuz they are actually mafia and trying to blend in, or if they are actually townie but they are just trying to come up with some theories whether it's right or wrong.


    Plus, if mafia games were just based on chance, then they would play this game in the casino, right? :D

    So are you up for a round two?


    Sure, if you'll have me, but I think I'm going to go learn about it some other places too. And I am seriously sorry I hurt your soul over this. I prefer games that don't rely on social anything. Logic and proofs are my bae. But I took a look at some big mafia places and wow, it was like scanning a huge gaming convention and wanting to run away fast. It was overwhelming. So I will at least try to get my feet wet and understand what people love about it.

    Don't give them ideas (casinos)! But casinos would have to have a pay-in that most people wouldn't get back, and hope to make their money in little trickles from a large amount of players and games, each of which nets a profit in aggregate.

    Haha, did you go Mafia Universe? That place is insane! I've participated in the championships there twice and it's kinda intimidating cuz there are people who have played the for like 10 years and here's me who's only played for like 3 years.
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    8EKmmpc.gif
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 2,084 Member
    @DeKay no, saw mafia 451. but will look at the one you mentioned.
    -Nush
    IPA: /nuʃ /
    Nushi, nushi, rhymes with sushi
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 55,945 Member
    And maybe to answer your 'question' on why I love mafia. Well, I like just going by my theories but then I don't know if I'm going to be right or wrong, but I just try my best and hope that I'm right. Then when the game is over and if I was right, it just feels like, "Whoaaa 😎". It just has more suspense and keeps me on my toes throughout.

    Rather than a game where there's only logic and math. As much as I love math, I feel like it's probably easier to win in games where there is only use of logic or math behind it. Everyone can do that as long as they have the brains for it. A computer or AI can help you do that. But an AI can't help you catch a mafia with a good enough theory. :D

    That's why I like it.

    In mafia, I feel like you could get some proofs depending on the setup or how good you are at observing people's behaviors, tho I feel you might think they're not, unless it really is confirmed by the host or something. LOL.
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    8EKmmpc.gif
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 55,945 Member
    edited February 12
    DeKay no, saw mafia 451. but will look at the one you mentioned.

    Never been there before. So what do you think of it? Why were you overwhelmed? Is it cuz of how they were playing? Or is it because of the numbers games there? :D

    I'm scrolling thru there now and I think it might be overwhelming cuz the setups are very creative. Haha.

    EDIT: The people there def seem more like us than the people who are in Mafia Universe. You will get headache there. 😂
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    8EKmmpc.gif
  • MousellineMouselline Posts: 1,732 Member
    I’ve been to Mafia Universe. It really was insane. All the messages come super fast. I prefer playing here
  • MousellineMouselline Posts: 1,732 Member
    DeKay wrote: »
    Okay, so who wants to volunteer to host? 😂 I wanna play but I'm okay with hosting. Just now that it might be a bit quiet without me playing. Hehe. 😂 And Nush will end up talking to himself. 🤣

    i wouldn't be against hosting.

    That’d be great too. So which one of you is hosting?
  • NASCARluver2448NASCARluver2448 Posts: 300 Member
    Mouselline wrote: »
    DeKay wrote: »
    Okay, so who wants to volunteer to host? 😂 I wanna play but I'm okay with hosting. Just now that it might be a bit quiet without me playing. Hehe. 😂 And Nush will end up talking to himself. 🤣

    i wouldn't be against hosting.

    That’d be great too. So which one of you is hosting?

    Rose offered first.. so she can
  • TheRoseHorseTheRoseHorse Posts: 5,586 Member
    Ok. So are we using the same players and just Mouse is playing instead of me?
    Wanna see my blog for the One Room, One Week, One Theme Challenge?
    Click here!
  • MousellineMouselline Posts: 1,732 Member
    Ok. So are we using the same players and just Mouse is playing instead of me?

    I think so. Everybody agreed to play at least
  • TheRoseHorseTheRoseHorse Posts: 5,586 Member
    Ok. Will set up later today then.
    Wanna see my blog for the One Room, One Week, One Theme Challenge?
    Click here!
  • TheRoseHorseTheRoseHorse Posts: 5,586 Member
    So, should I set up a player list and stuff here, so we can keep the games kinda separate? or should I just let Mouse add a section to the main page?
    Wanna see my blog for the One Room, One Week, One Theme Challenge?
    Click here!
  • AlexaKryAlexaKry Posts: 1,461 Member
    I think it would be enough to just set up a player list here and assign our roles.
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 55,945 Member
    We can just do it here.
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    8EKmmpc.gif
  • MousellineMouselline Posts: 1,732 Member
    I don’t care which one
  • NASCARluver2448NASCARluver2448 Posts: 300 Member
    here is fine
  • citysimmercitysimmer Posts: 5,320 Member
    I'm off from school this week so if I can remember to be active lol I'd like to play
    Proud black simmer 🖤
    MfVGMbL.jpg



  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 55,945 Member
    citysimmer wrote: »
    I'm off from school this week so if I can remember to be active lol I'd like to play

    Awesome! :)
    @TheRoseHorse You ready to start? :D
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    8EKmmpc.gif
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