@NationalPokedex I hear you, definitely. You know, one option might have been to create an occult world based on a historical time period. That way it could have had historical aesthetics while clearly not being an attempt to idealize the past, allowing for people to play both occult and time-period-esque stories. A thought?
Also 100% agreed. As far as a tool to tell stories goes - which, as I understand it, is what Sims 4 advertises itself as - there are no good stories when there are no interesting characters - regardless of time period or genre.
Yes even something like a mixed world would be nice! Definitely, it would just be nice to have more alternatives that feel just as flushed out as the standard option.
As someone who loves supernatural and realistic, I agree.
I like both but I think what's overlooked by players who only like realistic gameplay is how most everything in The Sims 4 caters to modern day, realistic gameplay. Every Sims game basically starts off realistic. It's the human sims in their human world, doing majorily realistic human things. I don't think it's thought about that way because it's the norm for a sim game. We take it for granted mostly because realism is catered to right from the start.
Supernatural play is more a side thought. Players who want that just have to hope it gets done eventually and it gets done right. Where The Sims 4 falls short at, I think, is the reason all the realistic gameplay gets overlooked by those wanting more realistic gameplay. The game tends to be boring to some people. Most of the packs (about what? 28 including the ones that just have one or two supernatural elements only?) have been realistic. And not too long after release players are looking for more because there's nothing to do.
Well, there's not "nothing" to do, there's realistic stuff to do, but the game is still kind of boring and there's something missing or off to a number of those players who look for the next thing to suck them in and still haven't found it. Then what players think will help is more realistic stuff to the point we have a laundry stuff pack and now a knitting stuff pack. To me saying players who like occults have gotten enough and that it's boring and a waste so the focus should be on adding more realistic things to do isn't going to help the shallow feeling this game has for some people, but it will hurt players looking for things beside modern day realism because that's a layer some of us need in our gameplay depending on what stories we want to tell and how we want to tell it.
And more along the line of story telling, they seriously should've taken into account that players like options and being able to enable and disable features. I don't understand why it seems that wasn't thought about, or maybe that's another sacrifice that had to be made for the vision of this game. But they should know by now that some players like to disable the bigger features because the feature turns out disappointing to them or they just don't like the main feature but love everything else, or multiple other reasons. I've said this from the beginning, we all want the option(s) to play our way. No one plays exactly alike. Yet they keep limiting options and we're stuck with their vision for this game that's, in a way, all or nothing. If you don't want modern day, social media driven realistic, unless you're willing to put in the effort to fight against that way or you get lucky and get a few scraps of gameplay you'd actually prefer, you're out of luck.
Something else I just thought of before I hit post, there may be some paranoia lingering after how this game started. All the realism taken for granted to the point of thinking the game wouldn't launch without certain things because that makes no sense changed as we knew or expected with Sims 4. Players who prefer realism could be trying to get every ounce of realism they can after that.
With Sims 5, I'd rather they just take their time with all the occults and put them in an amazing and detailed EP.
Another way to do the supernaturals is to introduce 1 in the BG and 1 per expansion pack, as in how TS2 did it. It was part of the pack's selling point and care was taken to develop said supernatural. TS2 also allowed mixing, so if you wanted a zombie-witch-vampire you could.
Another way to do the supernaturals is to introduce 1 in the BG and 1 per expansion pack, as in how TS2 did it. It was part of the pack's selling point and care was taken to develop said supernatural. TS2 also allowed mixing, so if you wanted a zombie-witch-vampire you could.
I miss that. Was nice because every pack, supernatural and realistic players each got what they wanted with expansion packs. I hate how life states became a hit and miss with packs with the Sims 4.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
@NationalPokedex Honestly, I can imagine how fun playing a Dracula retelling would be on the Sims if we had a more historical content.
Here's the biggest caveat for me personally. I'm pretty opposed to people sweeping history's more problematic elements under the rug. So you want to play in Colonial America, for instance. Okay, but you'll have to deal with slavery. Which is awful. And can't be swept under the rug so that we pretend that America has always been a shining paragon of fairness. And women can't get jobs unless it's "maid" or "flower-girl" or "cook." But children can and poorer children have to. And you'd need servants, lots of them. Which is pretty unpleasant, given the living conditions of servants.
I think we have a tendency to idealize the past, and I'm not sure how comfortable the Sims team is with including all these brutal elements. And even if you wanted to do "alternate timelines" where we have modern values in a historical context, I'd still say there's some moral grey-ness to rewriting the past. Not that it's flat out wrong, of course, but with certain people in the modern era saying things like "Slavery was a choice", it makes me juuuuust a bit weary of the idea that someone could actually make slavery a choice, even if only for their personal entertainment. Idealizing the past tends to encourage making the same mistakes. Whether we've enjoyed it or not, these past 15 years have been the best, most free time for anyone to be alive.
But then again... balls and carriages and hoop skirts and horseback riding into town ahhhhhhh
MS had a game I really loved years ago. Civilizations. It was fun for me to go through the EPs and build and fight other nations or warring tribes through the eras of history. If I want to dis on America I would have to dis on Rome, too. I don't think I want to go ask Rome to repay me for any wrong done to my ancestors or the enslavement of almost all of the world. Or Great Britian's cruelities. And not everyone in Colonial America owned slaves nor could afford a ceramic bowl. Let's not distort history in a conversation about fantasy. Let's also not forget about how other nations were/ are built or the decandance of Persia to others and I could name every country or nation in every continent some would disgree were right or wrong in ancient histories, or even now. Let's keep it on topic. We can't judge history by standards now. Because every nation has had it's dark periods. The Victorian Age of Europe/England isn't Colonial Age of America. I wish Sims would also let me play the Bronze Age before cell phones.
Post edited by Cinebar on
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
@NationalPokedex Honestly, I can imagine how fun playing a Dracula retelling would be on the Sims if we had a more historical content.
Here's the biggest caveat for me personally. I'm pretty opposed to people sweeping history's more problematic elements under the rug. So you want to play in Colonial America, for instance. Okay, but you'll have to deal with slavery. Which is awful. And can't be swept under the rug so that we pretend that America has always been a shining paragon of fairness. And women can't get jobs unless it's "maid" or "flower-girl" or "cook." But children can and poorer children have to. And you'd need servants, lots of them. Which is pretty unpleasant, given the living conditions of servants.
I think we have a tendency to idealize the past, and I'm not sure how comfortable the Sims team is with including all these brutal elements. And even if you wanted to do "alternate timelines" where we have modern values in a historical context, I'd still say there's some moral grey-ness to rewriting the past. Not that it's flat out wrong, of course, but with certain people in the modern era saying things like "Slavery was a choice", it makes me juuuuust a bit weary of the idea that someone could actually make slavery a choice, even if only for their personal entertainment. Idealizing the past tends to encourage making the same mistakes. Whether we've enjoyed it or not, these past 15 years have been the best, most free time for anyone to be alive.
But then again... balls and carriages and hoop skirts and horseback riding into town ahhhhhhh
There's only one person who decides what they're going to do in their game: the person who plays it. If people like to idealize a certain part of history by ignoring nasty aspects, that's up to them. Because they like to be escapistic about it and highlight the more romantic aspects of a historical era. Or because they don't know any better. And because the game simply doesn't deliver horrible features like the ones you describe, there's not murder or abuse in the game either and that's happening too. If I want to play the life of Marie-Antoinette, I don't necessarily have to download the guillotine with it, nor fill the world with poor paupers who storm the Bastille. If people really downplay slavery, they're just stupid. A Sims game will not change that.
I think the general Sims player base is changing and Occult play is something that is escalating among Simmers. About a year or so ago, Lyndsay Pearson gave us an idea of how well the packs did by ranking them in order of how much they were played in their first year of release. Vampires was right behind Parenthood in a very close second place. In today's stream, they talked about the community voting pack and told us that the results were extremely close, which means that, as Happy Haunts was second place, it's almost as much in demand as Arts and Crafts. I'll also point out that the Sims 4 seemed to be struggling for interest in the first two years of its existence, and within two weeks, they released both Toddlers and Vampires. Suddenly, the game had a 33% increase in players. I know a lot of people credited Toddlers alone for this, but I'm not so sure. I think Vampires had a big hand in it too, because it added a completely new, darker element of excitement to the gameplay.
This might be a sign that we're going to see some shifting from here on. Maybe Occult players will be taken more into consideration. Some players keep trying to say that the Sims games are supposed to be a life simulation, but they were never a real life simulation. More like a dramatic simulation of a fictional world where anything is possible. Some players choose to focus on real life, some players choose to focus on the fantastical. But both need to coexist somehow in the same game.
Toggles are great. I'm not personally against toggles, but I do prefer the "triggering" system of Sims 2, where once I "activated" Occult activity, it would incorporate into my game. And even if the player didn't trigger them, there were still Witch and Vampire NPCs showing up on community lots, making their presence known, there were still Genie lamps being left on doorsteps, Werewolves with glowing eyes appearing in household yards, and a potential for Aliens to show up for an abduction if you used the telescope at night. They were never completely absent, at least in Sims 2. Occult toggles were a thing only introduced in Sims 3, and while it's a great idea, the devs have stated that toggles can cause instability in this game, so they have to be careful about how they use them. Like it or not, we have to come to terms with that.
So what was the solution if they can't use toggles but still want to go deeper and expansive in creating a new Occult life state? Answer: put them in their own Game Packs with a focus that revolves specifically around them. The reasoning? So that players who want them in their game can buy these packs and enjoy them to their fullest while those who don't are made fully aware of what the pack contains and can skip it completely to avoid that kind of invasiveness. It comes down to choice. Occults were isolated into Game Packs on purpose to keep them from realistic players, yet some of these realistic players chose to buy it anyway, yet still demanded that they never see any [insert type of Occult here]. That's preposterous. Sure, go ahead and buy it, but do it at your own risk and know what that risk is. I mean, I wouldn't go buy Parenthood and then complain about the kids acting up, lol. That's why I don't own it.
I think that if the devs are going to keep moving forward with the Occult Game Pack model, (which I think is awesome, by the way), they need to stop worrying about trying to please the rest of the player base and let them be adults and live with their decisions if they add it to their games. Realm of Magic suffered for this desire to please by restricting spell use from everywhere except the magical realm. I had been looking forward to seeing magic everywhere, to have my game come alive, the way it did when Vampires released, but everything remains quiet and mundane, except for the occasional teleportation exit or broom use, which I love to see. If Spellcasters came in an Expansion Pack with a more general theme, then this would make sense, but they were given a pack all to themselves. How can you dial down the main subject of a pack? I mean, I'm not saying that they should have gone nuts so that Casters were doing autonomous magic on other Sims. But to see them have their own magical idles would have been nice, or to use a cauldron on a public lot on their own. And Vampires should most definitely continue to break into homes and feed off of boring mortals at all hours of the night.
I will never stop fighting for good Occult gameplay. For me, it's what gives Sims 4 life (ironically, lol). The simulation of modern living is just not as exciting as it used to be when the prominent Sim behavior means watching Sims constantly stick their faces in the nearest electronic screen. I'll take Vampire home invasions any day.
I agree, we paid good money for what they promised and if they start watering it down maybe they should give a refund because its not what we paid for anymore. And maybe they should sell every pack two ways. one with everything and one with CAS and build only (no life form).
Lots of good points, everyone. Made a post on the 2 levels of pack sailes a while back. To me that makes sense. I suspect that many folks in addition to me bought Vampires for the CAS & bb, not caring hoots about the other. A 2 level pack gives those players what they want without the biting, while the full option gives the fangtastic experience they want. And no gripes from the builders only crowd. Similar things could probably be said for many other packs as well.
One thing that's assumed is that everyone is neatly grouped into "Occult Players" and "Realism Players". I don't think everyone fits in that neatly. I for one, don't appreciate vampire break-ins. My sims did nothing to trigger them, they just happen without my control, and it's an invasive and frustrating action. However, I'm absolutely fine with vampires existing in the world, and may want to play them at some point. I just don't want them breaking in to my house unprompted.
One thing that's assumed is that everyone is neatly grouped into "Occult Players" and "Realism Players". I don't think everyone fits in that neatly. I for one, don't appreciate vampire break-ins. My sims did nothing to trigger them, they just happen without my control, and it's an invasive and frustrating action. However, I'm absolutely fine with vampires existing in the world, and may want to play them at some point. I just don't want them breaking in to my house unprompted.
I think if you are friendly to a vampire or study vampire lore and or open the door when one knocks on it that gives them permission to enter, later. That was my experience and that is what gurus said. You must have a bug if you haven't interacted with a vampire or opened the door, or studied vampire lore, or got some garlic or grew some garlic. There are triggers in the game but they are minor and you may not have noticed. Or maybe it's just bugged like everything else is, bu that is how it worked when first released.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
One thing that's assumed is that everyone is neatly grouped into "Occult Players" and "Realism Players". I don't think everyone fits in that neatly. I for one, don't appreciate vampire break-ins. My sims did nothing to trigger them, they just happen without my control, and it's an invasive and frustrating action. However, I'm absolutely fine with vampires existing in the world, and may want to play them at some point. I just don't want them breaking in to my house unprompted.
Yeah, I play with both realism and occult sims so I don't fit into the binary either. I do play realistic scenarios more often than I play with occult sims, but my occult play has increased since ROM. Besides, I use a lot of the objects and CAS that came with ROM and Vampires even when I'm playing a realistic save, because I love the historical aesthetic. For many of us, it's just not as simple as Realism or Occult. It should probably be viewed as more of a spectrum.
This is why I loved the toggles we had in Sims 3, I could switch them on when I wanted then and turn them off when I didn't want them. This time though, Vampires and Aliens spawn whether you want them or not.
Funny; I have owned all main Sim games (1, 2, 3 and 4) and the Sims 4 vampires are by FAR the best ones in the series.
That said, I hadn't noticed the break-ins were gone (except for Vlad, he always shows up and feed on my Sim the night after the Welcome wagon). However thank God for that. It's annoying having to lock the door before going to sleep every night to not be bothered by the stupid blood suckers.
I am all for switches though, just like for Seasons.
In fact, I would love to be able to turn ALL supernaturals off (especially Ghosts, they are really annoying and I never understood why you have a Sad emotion if your pet is still going to be around for eternity. In fact, why don't all Sims just lie down and die so they don't grow old but live forever?)
However Vampires are the only Supernaturals I enjoy playing as (vampires are cool as long as they aren't too cute or god forbid sparkle and women look good with fangs). But yes I would still want a switch to turn them off or on.
Switches are good, giving us options and some measure of control. Personally am a great fan of garlic. My sims have plantations of them by the door as soon as I can contrive it. Great way to keep the blood suckers at bay, and rather amusing when they get sick if they come by.
Comments
Yes even something like a mixed world would be nice! Definitely, it would just be nice to have more alternatives that feel just as flushed out as the standard option.
I like both but I think what's overlooked by players who only like realistic gameplay is how most everything in The Sims 4 caters to modern day, realistic gameplay. Every Sims game basically starts off realistic. It's the human sims in their human world, doing majorily realistic human things. I don't think it's thought about that way because it's the norm for a sim game. We take it for granted mostly because realism is catered to right from the start.
Supernatural play is more a side thought. Players who want that just have to hope it gets done eventually and it gets done right. Where The Sims 4 falls short at, I think, is the reason all the realistic gameplay gets overlooked by those wanting more realistic gameplay. The game tends to be boring to some people. Most of the packs (about what? 28 including the ones that just have one or two supernatural elements only?) have been realistic. And not too long after release players are looking for more because there's nothing to do.
Well, there's not "nothing" to do, there's realistic stuff to do, but the game is still kind of boring and there's something missing or off to a number of those players who look for the next thing to suck them in and still haven't found it. Then what players think will help is more realistic stuff to the point we have a laundry stuff pack and now a knitting stuff pack. To me saying players who like occults have gotten enough and that it's boring and a waste so the focus should be on adding more realistic things to do isn't going to help the shallow feeling this game has for some people, but it will hurt players looking for things beside modern day realism because that's a layer some of us need in our gameplay depending on what stories we want to tell and how we want to tell it.
And more along the line of story telling, they seriously should've taken into account that players like options and being able to enable and disable features. I don't understand why it seems that wasn't thought about, or maybe that's another sacrifice that had to be made for the vision of this game. But they should know by now that some players like to disable the bigger features because the feature turns out disappointing to them or they just don't like the main feature but love everything else, or multiple other reasons. I've said this from the beginning, we all want the option(s) to play our way. No one plays exactly alike. Yet they keep limiting options and we're stuck with their vision for this game that's, in a way, all or nothing. If you don't want modern day, social media driven realistic, unless you're willing to put in the effort to fight against that way or you get lucky and get a few scraps of gameplay you'd actually prefer, you're out of luck.
Something else I just thought of before I hit post, there may be some paranoia lingering after how this game started. All the realism taken for granted to the point of thinking the game wouldn't launch without certain things because that makes no sense changed as we knew or expected with Sims 4. Players who prefer realism could be trying to get every ounce of realism they can after that.
With Sims 5, I'd rather they just take their time with all the occults and put them in an amazing and detailed EP.
MS had a game I really loved years ago. Civilizations. It was fun for me to go through the EPs and build and fight other nations or warring tribes through the eras of history. If I want to dis on America I would have to dis on Rome, too. I don't think I want to go ask Rome to repay me for any wrong done to my ancestors or the enslavement of almost all of the world. Or Great Britian's cruelities. And not everyone in Colonial America owned slaves nor could afford a ceramic bowl. Let's not distort history in a conversation about fantasy. Let's also not forget about how other nations were/ are built or the decandance of Persia to others and I could name every country or nation in every continent some would disgree were right or wrong in ancient histories, or even now. Let's keep it on topic. We can't judge history by standards now. Because every nation has had it's dark periods. The Victorian Age of Europe/England isn't Colonial Age of America. I wish Sims would also let me play the Bronze Age before cell phones.
I think if you are friendly to a vampire or study vampire lore and or open the door when one knocks on it that gives them permission to enter, later. That was my experience and that is what gurus said. You must have a bug if you haven't interacted with a vampire or opened the door, or studied vampire lore, or got some garlic or grew some garlic. There are triggers in the game but they are minor and you may not have noticed. Or maybe it's just bugged like everything else is, bu that is how it worked when first released.
Yeah, I play with both realism and occult sims so I don't fit into the binary either. I do play realistic scenarios more often than I play with occult sims, but my occult play has increased since ROM. Besides, I use a lot of the objects and CAS that came with ROM and Vampires even when I'm playing a realistic save, because I love the historical aesthetic. For many of us, it's just not as simple as Realism or Occult. It should probably be viewed as more of a spectrum.
This is why I loved the toggles we had in Sims 3, I could switch them on when I wanted then and turn them off when I didn't want them. This time though, Vampires and Aliens spawn whether you want them or not.
That said, I hadn't noticed the break-ins were gone (except for Vlad, he always shows up and feed on my Sim the night after the Welcome wagon). However thank God for that. It's annoying having to lock the door before going to sleep every night to not be bothered by the stupid blood suckers.
I am all for switches though, just like for Seasons.
In fact, I would love to be able to turn ALL supernaturals off (especially Ghosts, they are really annoying and I never understood why you have a Sad emotion if your pet is still going to be around for eternity. In fact, why don't all Sims just lie down and die so they don't grow old but live forever?)
However Vampires are the only Supernaturals I enjoy playing as (vampires are cool as long as they aren't too cute or god forbid sparkle and women look good with fangs). But yes I would still want a switch to turn them off or on.