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My take on the whole Muslim inspired clothing thing

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First of all there has been a lot of debate if hijab is religious. it is 100% religious. Here is a nice webpage for you, to interpret the Qu'ran:

https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/quran-and-hijab

Secondly, I don't have the issue of religious items being in the game as such. However, all religious items should be by far treated the same. In this case putting muslim inspired clothing should also open the door for Jewish traditional outfits, for wigs for Jewish women, for Buddhist monk attire (Buddhist monks are a lot less separate from the society than Catholic priests for example and not only do they participate in worldly activities while going through their training, a lot of boys go through the training and not become a monk, simply because learning to be a monk is good for your moral values. Here's a team of Buddhist monks in training winning at e-sports:

https://www.unilad.co.uk/gaming/a-team-of-buddhist-monks-won-an-esports-tournament-in-thailand/ ), rosaries, pagan symbols and other accessories used both in religion and in fashion.

Unfortunately topics discussing said things often end up closed because religious discussion is a no-no on the forums:

https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/965467/where-is-the-christian-content/p3

https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/965492/i-think-muslim-inspired-clothing-was-either-made-or-introduced-wrong/p1

From my previous topic being closed I can infer that it was indeed titled correctly and it's Muslim religious clothing. And from this statement, I hereby want to ask The Sims team to be equally as inclusive to all faiths.

Linking my yesterday's video again too:


Comments

  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    LiELF wrote: »
    Hijabs are not "100% religious". We have people on these very forums who are trying to educate others that there are Muslims who do not live in oppressive regions who wear them by choice

    Muslim
    /ˈmʊzlɪm,ˈmʊslɪm,ˈmʌzlɪm/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a follower of the religion of Islam.

    To identify as muslim, you have to be a follower of Islam. Islam is a religion, therefore that makes you religious. Where hijab is not inforced by law, you are having a choice of to wear it or not, but ultimately it's the item of your religion. Rosaries, crosses and other symbolics are also not forced on Christians, but are ultimately a Christian item.
  • FlpAmaralFlpAmaral Posts: 202 Member
    my god, it's just clothing. i'm pretty sure it's not gonna be enabled for random sims. you don't have to use it. get over it
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    FlpAmaral wrote: »
    my god, it's just clothing. i'm pretty sure it's not gonna be enabled for random sims. you don't have to use it. get over it

    What part of my post suggests that I'm asking for it to be taken out? I'm asking for all faiths and beliefs to be treated the same.
  • FlpAmaralFlpAmaral Posts: 202 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    FlpAmaral wrote: »
    my god, it's just clothing. i'm pretty sure it's not gonna be enabled for random sims. you don't have to use it. get over it

    What part of my post suggests that I'm asking for it to be taken out? I'm asking for all faiths and beliefs to be treated the same.

    it's a piece of clothing.
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    FlpAmaral wrote: »
    mirta000 wrote: »
    FlpAmaral wrote: »
    my god, it's just clothing. i'm pretty sure it's not gonna be enabled for random sims. you don't have to use it. get over it

    What part of my post suggests that I'm asking for it to be taken out? I'm asking for all faiths and beliefs to be treated the same.

    it's a piece of clothing.

    religious piece of clothing like all the other religious pieces of clothing that I named in my post.
  • LiELFLiELF Posts: 4,810 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    LiELF wrote: »
    Hijabs are not "100% religious". We have people on these very forums who are trying to educate others that there are Muslims who do not live in oppressive regions who wear them by choice

    Muslim
    /ˈmʊzlɪm,ˈmʊslɪm,ˈmʌzlɪm/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a follower of the religion of Islam.

    To identify as muslim, you have to be a follower of Islam. Islam is a religion, therefore that makes you religious. Where hijab is not inforced by law, you are having a choice of to wear it or not, but ultimately it's the item of your religion. Rosaries, crosses and other symbolics are also not forced on Christians, but are ultimately a Christian item.

    So rather than accept the testimony of actual Muslim women, you're going to continue to push your own interpretation. That's a new low. You can keep insisting the hijab is exclusively religious, but it won't make it true, lol. Many women wear them for reasons that are not religious. Why do you keep ignoring this? Just because something can be worn religiously, or is worn religiously in some areas, does not suddenly make that garment an exclusively religious piece.

    If you need more proof of that, here are some articles that back this up.

    http://theconversation.com/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-hijab-109717

    https://www.learnreligions.com/when-do-muslim-girls-start-wearing-the-hijab-2004249

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-hijab/2019/03/15/d1f1ea52-45f6-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

    So, once again; the hijab is not, of itself, a religious object. It just isn't. It is merely used in respect to religious tenets. It is not anywhere the same as putting a crucifix in the game.
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    edited September 2019
    DeKay wrote: »
    Thanks for the link, OP. But I think you misunderstood it. Hijab is not a religious clothing! "Hijab" simply means "cover". The point is this "hijab" or "head scarves" is used to cover ourselves cuz that's the rule. I could also just take literally a towel and wrap my hair and neck and it will still obey the rule. Are you gonna call the towel a religious item too? 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

    But you do not use towels. You use very distict style associated with the religion, which is what I assume they're putting in. Such as:
    fancy-stylish--sand-black-hijab-b.jpg

    or
    Double-loop-Instant-Hijab.jpg

    there are a lot more universal ways of wearing a scarf, which would not fall under necessarily religious head covering, but also wouldn't be considered muslim inspired by the developer team, such as:
    18f3320e8d6ac25de19368d850c7b7ae6b588625_clx5818_1.jpg

    61E0aksMFVL._UX522_.jpg

    how-to-tie-a-head-scarf-3-ways-video-tutorial.jpg

    head-wrap-scarf-1.jpg

    o1arhj-l-610x610-scarf-head+scarf-head+wrap-scarves-cute+scarves-cute+scarf-hijabs.jpg

    I could add many more, but you catch my drift. There was a way of introducing headscarf that is a-religious. As the team specifically wanted muslim inspired headscarves though, I think that other religious clothing pieces should be considered too, especially when many of them are indeed fashion accessories too, such as cross themed jewelry
    e09cdv-l-610x610-jewels-goth+hipster-goth-gothic+lolita-cross-gothic-cross+necklace-necklace-black.jpg

    or pentagram themed jewelry
    il_fullxfull.1177901641_s3qv.jpg

    LiELF wrote: »

    So rather than accept the testimony of actual Muslim women, you're going to continue to push your own interpretation. That's a new low. You can keep insisting the hijab is exclusively religious, but it won't make it true, lol. Many women wear them for reasons that are not religious. Why do you keep ignoring this? Just because something can be worn religiously, or is worn religiously in some areas, does not suddenly make that garment an exclusively religious piece.

    If you need more proof of that, here are some articles that back this up.

    http://theconversation.com/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-hijab-109717

    https://www.learnreligions.com/when-do-muslim-girls-start-wearing-the-hijab-2004249

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-hijab/2019/03/15/d1f1ea52-45f6-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

    So, once again; the hijab is not, of itself, a religious object. It just isn't. It is merely used in respect to religious tenets. It is not anywhere the same as putting a crucifix in the game.


    Who are the non muslim women that wear hijabs and burkas, in countries where that's not required by law? If its an iitem used specifically by only the members of your religion, I would consider that a religious item. Heck, even if an item is used by a wide range of people, but it has religious symbolism, that's also a religious item.
  • LiELFLiELF Posts: 4,810 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    DeKay wrote: »
    Thanks for the link, OP. But I think you misunderstood it. Hijab is not a religious clothing! "Hijab" simply means "cover". The point is this "hijab" or "head scarves" is used to cover ourselves cuz that's the rule. I could also just take literally a towel and wrap my hair and neck and it will still obey the rule. Are you gonna call the towel a religious item too? 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

    But you do not use towels. You use very distict style associated with the religion, which is what I assume they're putting in. Such as:
    fancy-stylish--sand-black-hijab-b.jpg

    or
    Double-loop-Instant-Hijab.jpg

    there are a lot more universal ways of wearing a scarf, which would not fall under necessarily religious head covering, but also wouldn't be considered muslim inspired by the developer team, such as:
    18f3320e8d6ac25de19368d850c7b7ae6b588625_clx5818_1.jpg

    61E0aksMFVL._UX522_.jpg

    how-to-tie-a-head-scarf-3-ways-video-tutorial.jpg

    head-wrap-scarf-1.jpg

    o1arhj-l-610x610-scarf-head+scarf-head+wrap-scarves-cute+scarves-cute+scarf-hijabs.jpg

    I could add many more, but you catch my drift. There was a way of introducing headscarf that is a-religious. As the team specifically wanted muslim inspired headscarves though, I think that other religious clothing pieces should be considered too, especially when many of them are indeed fashion accessories too, such as cross themed jewelry
    e09cdv-l-610x610-jewels-goth+hipster-goth-gothic+lolita-cross-gothic-cross+necklace-necklace-black.jpg

    or pentagram themed jewelry
    il_fullxfull.1177901641_s3qv.jpg

    LiELF wrote: »

    So rather than accept the testimony of actual Muslim women, you're going to continue to push your own interpretation. That's a new low. You can keep insisting the hijab is exclusively religious, but it won't make it true, lol. Many women wear them for reasons that are not religious. Why do you keep ignoring this? Just because something can be worn religiously, or is worn religiously in some areas, does not suddenly make that garment an exclusively religious piece.

    If you need more proof of that, here are some articles that back this up.

    http://theconversation.com/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-hijab-109717

    https://www.learnreligions.com/when-do-muslim-girls-start-wearing-the-hijab-2004249

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-hijab/2019/03/15/d1f1ea52-45f6-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

    So, once again; the hijab is not, of itself, a religious object. It just isn't. It is merely used in respect to religious tenets. It is not anywhere the same as putting a crucifix in the game.


    Who are the non muslim women that wear hijabs and burkas, in countries where that's not required by law? If its an iitem used specifically by only the members of your religion, I would consider that a religious item. Heck, even if an item is used by a wide range of people, but it has religious symbolism, that's also a religious item.

    Then you would be wrong. ;)

    Obviously, you didn't even take a look at my links so this argument is worthless anyway. You do you. :)
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 67,367 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    DeKay wrote: »
    Thanks for the link, OP. But I think you misunderstood it. Hijab is not a religious clothing! "Hijab" simply means "cover". The point is this "hijab" or "head scarves" is used to cover ourselves cuz that's the rule. I could also just take literally a towel and wrap my hair and neck and it will still obey the rule. Are you gonna call the towel a religious item too? 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

    But you do not use towels. You use very distict style associated with the religion, which is what I assume they're putting in. Such as:
    fancy-stylish--sand-black-hijab-b.jpg

    or
    Double-loop-Instant-Hijab.jpg

    there are a lot more universal ways of wearing a scarf, which would not fall under necessarily religious head covering, but also wouldn't be considered muslim inspired by the developer team, such as:
    18f3320e8d6ac25de19368d850c7b7ae6b588625_clx5818_1.jpg

    61E0aksMFVL._UX522_.jpg

    how-to-tie-a-head-scarf-3-ways-video-tutorial.jpg

    head-wrap-scarf-1.jpg

    o1arhj-l-610x610-scarf-head+scarf-head+wrap-scarves-cute+scarves-cute+scarf-hijabs.jpg

    I could add many more, but you catch my drift. There was a way of introducing headscarf that is a-religious. As the team specifically wanted muslim inspired headscarves though, I think that other religious clothing pieces should be considered too, especially when many of them are indeed fashion accessories too, such as cross themed jewelry
    e09cdv-l-610x610-jewels-goth+hipster-goth-gothic+lolita-cross-gothic-cross+necklace-necklace-black.jpg

    or pentagram themed jewelry
    il_fullxfull.1177901641_s3qv.jpg

    LiELF wrote: »

    So rather than accept the testimony of actual Muslim women, you're going to continue to push your own interpretation. That's a new low. You can keep insisting the hijab is exclusively religious, but it won't make it true, lol. Many women wear them for reasons that are not religious. Why do you keep ignoring this? Just because something can be worn religiously, or is worn religiously in some areas, does not suddenly make that garment an exclusively religious piece.

    If you need more proof of that, here are some articles that back this up.

    http://theconversation.com/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-hijab-109717

    https://www.learnreligions.com/when-do-muslim-girls-start-wearing-the-hijab-2004249

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-hijab/2019/03/15/d1f1ea52-45f6-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

    So, once again; the hijab is not, of itself, a religious object. It just isn't. It is merely used in respect to religious tenets. It is not anywhere the same as putting a crucifix in the game.


    Who are the non muslim women that wear hijabs and burkas, in countries where that's not required by law? If its an iitem used specifically by only the members of your religion, I would consider that a religious item. Heck, even if an item is used by a wide range of people, but it has religious symbolism, that's also a religious item.

    There's no strict style and like you have shown in your examples, there are different ways to wear it. Ultimately, it's a piece of cloth. And yes, maybe people don't wear a towel cuz maybe it doesn't look pretty. But that doesn't mean it doesn't serve the purpose of covering the neck and head.

    If it was purely a religious thing, then it should only be worn one way and one correct way only, such as the telekung which is a prayer dress.
    9505bbe4-855e-4180-b292-ea9ee3387731.jpg
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    foYU7H9.gif
  • JoBass24usJoBass24us Posts: 1,611 Member
    edited September 2019
    Who are the non muslim women that wear hijabs and burkas, in countries where that's not required by law? If its an iitem used specifically by only the members of your religion, I would consider that a religious item. Heck, even if an item is used by a wide range of people, but it has religious symbolism, that's also a religious item.[/quote]

    There are many. Where I live, the state of Massachusetts, it is very diverse and I see Muslim or women of middle eastern decent wear them. Last I checked the USA doesn’t require or have a law that imposes its use. So yeah, they use as a cultural item too.

  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    DeKay wrote: »
    There's no strict style and like you have shown in your examples, there are different ways to wear it.

    There's also no strict style for "Sunday best" in Christian world, but it would be an outfit that serves a religious purpose. There are also once again piece of cloth styles that you only see religious muslim women wear and then there's headscarf styles that non-religious women wear too.
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 67,367 Member
    LiELF wrote: »
    mirta000 wrote: »
    DeKay wrote: »
    Thanks for the link, OP. But I think you misunderstood it. Hijab is not a religious clothing! "Hijab" simply means "cover". The point is this "hijab" or "head scarves" is used to cover ourselves cuz that's the rule. I could also just take literally a towel and wrap my hair and neck and it will still obey the rule. Are you gonna call the towel a religious item too? 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

    But you do not use towels. You use very distict style associated with the religion, which is what I assume they're putting in. Such as:
    fancy-stylish--sand-black-hijab-b.jpg

    or
    Double-loop-Instant-Hijab.jpg

    there are a lot more universal ways of wearing a scarf, which would not fall under necessarily religious head covering, but also wouldn't be considered muslim inspired by the developer team, such as:
    18f3320e8d6ac25de19368d850c7b7ae6b588625_clx5818_1.jpg

    61E0aksMFVL._UX522_.jpg

    how-to-tie-a-head-scarf-3-ways-video-tutorial.jpg

    head-wrap-scarf-1.jpg

    o1arhj-l-610x610-scarf-head+scarf-head+wrap-scarves-cute+scarves-cute+scarf-hijabs.jpg

    I could add many more, but you catch my drift. There was a way of introducing headscarf that is a-religious. As the team specifically wanted muslim inspired headscarves though, I think that other religious clothing pieces should be considered too, especially when many of them are indeed fashion accessories too, such as cross themed jewelry
    e09cdv-l-610x610-jewels-goth+hipster-goth-gothic+lolita-cross-gothic-cross+necklace-necklace-black.jpg

    or pentagram themed jewelry
    il_fullxfull.1177901641_s3qv.jpg

    LiELF wrote: »

    So rather than accept the testimony of actual Muslim women, you're going to continue to push your own interpretation. That's a new low. You can keep insisting the hijab is exclusively religious, but it won't make it true, lol. Many women wear them for reasons that are not religious. Why do you keep ignoring this? Just because something can be worn religiously, or is worn religiously in some areas, does not suddenly make that garment an exclusively religious piece.

    If you need more proof of that, here are some articles that back this up.

    http://theconversation.com/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-hijab-109717

    https://www.learnreligions.com/when-do-muslim-girls-start-wearing-the-hijab-2004249

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-hijab/2019/03/15/d1f1ea52-45f6-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

    So, once again; the hijab is not, of itself, a religious object. It just isn't. It is merely used in respect to religious tenets. It is not anywhere the same as putting a crucifix in the game.


    Who are the non muslim women that wear hijabs and burkas, in countries where that's not required by law? If its an iitem used specifically by only the members of your religion, I would consider that a religious item. Heck, even if an item is used by a wide range of people, but it has religious symbolism, that's also a religious item.

    Then you would be wrong. ;)

    Obviously, you didn't even take a look at my links so this argument is worthless anyway. You do you. :)

    I'm so tired of trying to teach people who don't wanna listen. What's the point really? 😂

    And maybe non Muslim women don't wanna wear hijabs or head scarves thatare close to looking like that cuz they probably think they're gonna be attacked for it?Maybe people should think about that too. But they all aren't complaining about there are these sick people who attack innocent people? Such a shame.

    Society and media have really messed with people's minds. It's sad for me to wake up today and find out that a chunk of the sim community is like this in 2019 still. 😔 Ridiculous.
    My origin ID: DeKaythePUNK
    foYU7H9.gif
  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 5,743 Member
    edited September 2019
    We still have remnants of these man made laws on women's clothing in most countries and especially in Christian churches of which laws in olden times were just as rigorous as the Koran. Wearing trousers was regarded with shock and horror in the late 19th Century. We have Mrs Bloomer of the USA to advocate and popularise them. I wear the latest versions now with pride plus a women's type cap in winter! Another appropriation.

    "Headscarves making their way into fashion: It has surprised modest designers like Sweden's Iman Aldebe, who told Al Jazeera her Happy Turban line sells to non-Muslim women as well as Muslim women.
    "Now women from all backgrounds and religions wear my clothes and turbans. Some collect my turbans," she said. "It's interesting to see ... how it went from being seen as an object of oppression to a desired fashion item."
    https://www.mic.com/articles/134432/why-hijabs-becoming-a-fashion-statement-for-non-muslim-women

    Headscarves have never been the sole prerogative of a Religion. We've used them for centuries to protect our hair against the elements. Maybe in prehistoric times too to stop men dragging us off by our hair! o:)

  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    DeKay wrote: »
    I'm so tired of trying to teach people who don't wanna listen. What's the point really? 😂

    And maybe non Muslim women don't wanna wear hijabs or head scarves thatare close to looking like that cuz they probably think they're gonna be attacked for it?Maybe people should think about that too. But they all aren't complaining about there are these sick people who attack innocent people? Such a shame.

    Society and media have really messed with people's minds. It's sad for me to wake up today and find out that a chunk of the sim community is like this in 2019 still. 😔 Ridiculous.

    Or maybe we're from a very diverse geographical background. I live in UK. Those who wear burkas or hijabs do so because religion is a strong part of their identity. However we also have a very varied Jewish community here too. You can see religion in the way that people dress, walk and present themselves. And being in a multicultural society, we don't judge each other based on that. But all religion should be treated the same. In reality, you wouldn't make a law that bans all religious items, except for hijab, because it's "cultural". Many communities would lose their minds if you tried doing that. However when it is The Sims, suddenly it's bigoted to ask for other religions to be treated the same?
  • JoBass24usJoBass24us Posts: 1,611 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    DeKay wrote: »
    There's no strict style and like you have shown in your examples, there are different ways to wear it.

    There's also no strict style for "Sunday best" in Christian world, but it would be an outfit that serves a religious purpose. There are also once again piece of cloth styles that you only see religious muslim women wear and then there's headscarf styles that non-religious women wear too.

    You are mistaken here. Perhaps that may have been one view, or the custom of some, but it certainly does not define the reasons why other groups use it or practice it. Yes, many used to and may still reserve certain outfits for church. However, others would wear that clothing for church and perhaps reuse it for a cocktail or dinner party. I think the issue you may be having is that you are lumping everything into one narrow box (as in, if you use this or do this you must be religious).
    Christmas is a great example. While rooted in religion many today observe and celebrate the holiday despite not being Christians at all. They place a different meaning to it.
    The wearing of a veil and white dress by a bride is rooted in religion and paganism, a symbol or purity etc. Yet modern women wear it not because they believe in misogyny or the meaning given to it at one time. They wear them because they find them beautiful.
    Again many middle eastern women use the hijab as a symbol of their culture and it’s more and more being looked at as a fashion statement. No one is saying that it’s not used for religious purposes, it certainly was and still is, but what is trying to be conveyed to you is that a hijab is not solely use for religious purposes anymore.

  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 5,743 Member
    edited September 2019
    It was Queen Victoria, at her wedding, who started the fashion for white wedding dresses. Before that wedding women just wore their best frocks of any colour. True.
    The Victoria and Albert Museum, London has a great article..
    https://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/here-come-brides/queen-victoria-and-the-white-wedding-dress
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,963 Member
    JoBass24us wrote: »
    Christmas is a great example. While rooted in religion many today observe and celebrate the holiday despite not being Christians at all. They place a different meaning to it.

    As an atheist I can choose to exchange gifts on Christmas, but I am fully aware that it is a Christian holiday. If there was no religious connotation to it, we would literally be calling it "Christmas" in The Sims as well and not "Winterfest".
    JoBass24us wrote: »
    The wearing of a veil and white dress by a bride is rooted in religion and paganism, a symbol or purity etc. Yet modern women wear it not because they believe in misogyny or the meaning given to it at one time. They wear them because they find them beautiful.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wedding

    White dress during a wedding has no religious context.
  • SimmyFroggySimmyFroggy Posts: 1,759 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    DeKay wrote: »
    I'm so tired of trying to teach people who don't wanna listen. What's the point really? 😂

    And maybe non Muslim women don't wanna wear hijabs or head scarves thatare close to looking like that cuz they probably think they're gonna be attacked for it?Maybe people should think about that too. But they all aren't complaining about there are these sick people who attack innocent people? Such a shame.

    Society and media have really messed with people's minds. It's sad for me to wake up today and find out that a chunk of the sim community is like this in 2019 still. 😔 Ridiculous.

    Or maybe we're from a very diverse geographical background. I live in UK. Those who wear burkas or hijabs do so because religion is a strong part of their identity. However we also have a very varied Jewish community here too. You can see religion in the way that people dress, walk and present themselves. And being in a multicultural society, we don't judge each other based on that. But all religion should be treated the same. In reality, you wouldn't make a law that bans all religious items, except for hijab, because it's "cultural". Many communities would lose their minds if you tried doing that. However when it is The Sims, suddenly it's bigoted to ask for other religions to be treated the same?

    I would personally absolutely welcome CAS items like tichels (oh wait, CL already has those, but if they want to put more into base game, bring it on), saris, kippahs, bonnets, turbans, etc. Make them a clothing option, I'm all for it. All of them are a huge part of people's cultural identity which just so happens to be linked to their beliefs. The issue with a lot of the discussion about this patch isn't that people want more, it's that people want to remove what's being added and it very much feels like they wouldn't have that same issue if the items I mentioned were added (we already have some of those, after all).
    avatar art: Loves2draw1812
  • JoBass24usJoBass24us Posts: 1,611 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    It was Queen Victoria, at her wedding, who started the fashion for white wedding dresses. Before that wedding women just wore their best frocks of any colour. True.

    Sure, this is true. But it cannot be denied that it has been given a religious view or symbolism of a brides purity and chasteness.
    And yes, if you take an unbiased anthropological look at these customs that very greatly among different cultures they are very different. I actually enjoyed this class in college. I always found it intriguing to learn how different cultures attribute different meaning to practices.

  • izecsonizecson Posts: 2,126 Member
    edited September 2019
    mirta000 wrote: »
    LiELF wrote: »

    So rather than accept the testimony of actual Muslim women, you're going to continue to push your own interpretation. That's a new low. You can keep insisting the hijab is exclusively religious, but it won't make it true, lol. Many women wear them for reasons that are not religious. Why do you keep ignoring this? Just because something can be worn religiously, or is worn religiously in some areas, does not suddenly make that garment an exclusively religious piece.

    If you need more proof of that, here are some articles that back this up.

    http://theconversation.com/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-hijab-109717

    https://www.learnreligions.com/when-do-muslim-girls-start-wearing-the-hijab-2004249

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-hijab/2019/03/15/d1f1ea52-45f6-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

    So, once again; the hijab is not, of itself, a religious object. It just isn't. It is merely used in respect to religious tenets. It is not anywhere the same as putting a crucifix in the game.


    Who are the non muslim women that wear hijabs and burkas, in countries where that's not required by law? If its an iitem used specifically by only the members of your religion, I would consider that a religious item. Heck, even if an item is used by a wide range of people, but it has religious symbolism, that's also a religious item.

    If you really need an ample proof of someone that are not muslim but wear hijab
    2d64c6a4-faa8-420b-a7fa-c95c2f20bed1_43.jpeg?w=780&q=90

    She is catholic and in Indonesia, where women are not required to wear hijab(by indonesia's law) but are free to do so by their own choice.

  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 5,743 Member
    edited September 2019
    @darrenfroggy I didn't know tichels were a religious item and have used them for many Sims in ignorance. I hadn't even heard of the word. I've been educated! :) I'd love some saris which come in so many beautiful colours, turbans (our Sikh police are allowed to wear them in the UK) and bonnets for children and adults.
  • JoBass24usJoBass24us Posts: 1,611 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    JoBass24us wrote: »
    Christmas is a great example. While rooted in religion many today observe and celebrate the holiday despite not being Christians at all. They place a different meaning to it.

    As an atheist I can choose to exchange gifts on Christmas, but I am fully aware that it is a Christian holiday. If there was no religious connotation to it, we would literally be calling it "Christmas" in The Sims as well and not "Winterfest".
    JoBass24us wrote: »
    The wearing of a veil and white dress by a bride is rooted in religion and paganism, a symbol or purity etc. Yet modern women wear it not because they believe in misogyny or the meaning given to it at one time. They wear them because they find them beautiful.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wedding

    White dress during a wedding has no religious context.

    There you go, you just proved yourself wrong. You are practicing a holiday and doing what people do during it despite not being religious and having the understanding that it did start as a religious practice. I suppose some, then, could wear hijab despite knowing it has religious meaning but choose it because they may like the look or as part of the culture they come from.

    I don’t ever visit Wikipedia. It really isn’t the most reliable source of information. Yet i read it to understand your point. In that article it states “Although women were required to wear veils in many churches through at least the 19th century, the resurgence of the wedding veil as a symbol of the bride, and its use even when not required by the bride's religion, coincided with societal emphasis on women being modest and well-behaved.[4]

    Etiquette books then began to turn the practice into a tradition and the white gown soon became a popular symbol of status that also carried "a connotation of innocence and virginal purity."[2] The story put out about the wedding veil was that decorous brides were naturally too timid to show their faces in public until they were married.”

    So yes, it does indeed have religious meaning that then turned into custom.

    Have a great day.. I have work to do.
  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 5,743 Member
    edited September 2019
    JoBass24us wrote: »
    Simburian wrote: »
    It was Queen Victoria, at her wedding, who started the fashion for white wedding dresses. Before that wedding women just wore their best frocks of any colour. True.

    Sure, this is true. But it cannot be denied that it has been given a religious view or symbolism of a brides purity and chasteness.
    And yes, if you take an unbiased anthropological look at these customs that very greatly among different cultures they are very different. I actually enjoyed this class in college. I always found it intriguing to learn how different cultures attribute different meaning to practices.

    I bet you that was something that men (probably clerics) made use of. I doubt if many woment of the time liked the words "chaste" and "pure" applied to them.
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