I'm totally fine with the inclusion of the them/they pronouns, but I don't see the point of removing the he/she pronouns.
I would never suggest removing she/her or he/him at all. I think the three options is the ideal. No, I respect cis people and trans people on the binary spectrum who use he/him or she/her, they are just as valid in their pronoun preferences as I am and I would never pigeon hole them into something they don't like
I'm totally fine with the inclusion of the them/they pronouns, but I don't see the point of removing the he/she pronouns.
I would never suggest removing she/her or he/him at all. I think the three options is the ideal. No, I respect cis people and trans people on the binary spectrum who use he/him or she/her, they are just as valid in their pronoun preferences as I am and I would never pigeon hole them into something they don't like
There was someone on here who seemed to have suggested it with the excuse that it would reduce the amount of effort in designating pronouns. Not only that, but they suggested the use of custom pronouns, which is a bit contradictory. I don't want this to be seen the wrong way, but the concept of ‘custom pronouns’ sounds like a cry for attention. The fact the person explicitly stated that they made the pronoun ‘Ille’ on the spot really doesn't help their argument. Maybe because I'm cisgendered myself, but I don't see the point using pronouns beyond he, she or they, nor do I understand being so fixated on gender pronouns of all things.
Anyway, I definitely agree with you that three options is ideal.
I'm totally fine with the inclusion of the them/they pronouns, but I don't see the point of removing the he/she pronouns.
I would never suggest removing she/her or he/him at all. I think the three options is the ideal. No, I respect cis people and trans people on the binary spectrum who use he/him or she/her, they are just as valid in their pronoun preferences as I am and I would never pigeon hole them into something they don't like
Thank you Modsey, that was what I got worried about that he and she would be removed. You've been very respectful to those of us who want to keep he and she etc. And I hope I have shown you the same respect. I would also hope if someone created a transSim they could keep the he or she for that Sim (if that's what they want).
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I personally think this is a great idea; I made a thread about this too. One thing I’m wondering though; I’ve met quite a few people in real life who may prefer using a mix of pronouns, such as she/they, he/they, she/he or maybe even she/he/they. Would there be a way to incorporate that?
coding wise I don't think it would be that hard to incorperate in all honesty, it's likely already a variable where the pronouns go, just add another box in CAS for Pronouns and you can use xe xhe she they them, what ever, might have enter both the subject and object forms as well as the possessive - which might get tedious for the user but ideas gotta start somewhere right? - but I also dont thing from a UI POV it'll work real well.
But the easiest way for the user would be using a drop-down menu, from a UI - and adding a they/them option (as well as the he/him, she/her) to be assigned to that particular sim - this option I think would be the best option for a user POV, easy peasey less work for the user
This sounds like a bad idea. A very bad idea. It would be nearly impossible to do, and it would only be something to satisfy a tiny minority of players. Which means it's not worth the trouble, cost-wise and time-wise. Also, I'm wondering what happens if people play the "where's my representation" game. I've seen people literally, seriously, claim that autism is their gender, even though that's just not what autism is. What if those people start demanding representation? Should they be catered to? I'm VERY pro LGBT but sometimes you have to be realistic.
Are you 100% sure people weren't joking about autism being a gender? That's highly offensive to autistic people, and badly misrepresents true autistic people. (Makes them look bad, or could if anyone believed that silliness.)
Anyway, I'd prefer to view that pronouns represent sex, not gender. Sims only have two sexes, so they're simpler to "deal" with. Sim babies are born male or female, and we casually use "boy" or "girl" instead of formal "male" or "female," not necessarily trying to force a gender, just being casual/cute with it. Babies are born with physical parts or certain coding and parents or players project gender onto them. Worrying about pronouns as gender words instead of sex words causes more upset than it could. (Though I know it's based on PRIVATE parts, and society wants it very public, which can be uncomfortable.)
I know that people don't see it that way but perhaps that's the switch that would actually catch on/work? Well, "they" is popular in a different way. People use "they" a lot anyway, but unfortunately it's to lazily refer to anyone, including girly-girls and macho men, haha. That taints it some for me, and TS4 already does that sometimes, right?
"She" isn't an insult but if someone with female parts prefers "he" or "they," but "they" isn't an option, at least that person can fall back on "he" until this thing is sorted out (which might be tricky to set up in game though).
The Sims 4 isn't that new. It's already established. Like it or not, it's kind of older than when this movement got popular. People think of it as current, but that'll change. Sadly, "live service" can only bring so much. There are a lot of things people want from TS4, and deserve from The Sims, that may not be possible with TS4.
Please do request a framework that will comfortably allow this with TS5. I'd prefer custom pronouns though, as lazy (sometimes ignorant) people already ruined "they" for me, sadly. I'm in the minority though, most people love "they" (for anyone though, I warn you, haha).
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Please do request a framework that will comfortably allow this with TS5. I'd prefer custom pronouns though, as lazy (sometimes ignorant) people already ruined "they" for me, sadly. I'm in the minority though, most people love "they" (for anyone though, I warn you, haha).
It really wouldn't be that hard from a coding point of view, its all just variables. The hardest part would be actually on the user inputting every variation of the pronoun they wanted their sim to use.
Please do request a framework that will comfortably allow this with TS5. I'd prefer custom pronouns though, as lazy (sometimes ignorant) people already ruined "they" for me, sadly. I'm in the minority though, most people love "they" (for anyone though, I warn you, haha).
It really wouldn't be that hard from a coding point of view, its all just variables. The hardest part would be actually on the user inputting every variation of the pronoun they wanted their sim to use.
I don't think it's variable code, only because other languages aren't like English. I expect that the messages are mostly hard-coded - if the Sim is 'female', one message is generated for the notification board or chance cards; if the Sim is male, a different message is generated. Otherwise, you'd have to have numerous variables, depending on the language. Every single word would have to be variable; moreover, the word order isn't the same in every language.
English: Chris found a new fish. (insert He-She) is happy. Check (insert his-her) inventory.
French: Chris found a new fish. (insert He-She) is happy(insert female-male ending). Check his-her one's (the possessive pronoun is gender-neutral and matches the thing possessed) inventory.
Russian (rusty): Chris found(insert female-male ending) new fish. (insert He-She) happy(insert male-female ending). Check his-her one's (the possessive pronoun is gender-neutral and matches the thing possessed) inventory.
Obviously, it's much easier to code:
English: If female, print: 'Chris found a new fish. She is happy. Check her inventory.' If male, print: 'Chris found a new fish. He is happy. Check his inventory.'
French: If female, print: 'Chris a trouvé un nouveau poisson. Elle est contente. Voyez son inventaire. If male, print: 'Chris a trouvé un nouveau poisson. Il est content. Voyez son inventaire.
That would make gender-neutral rather simple, actually, but they'd have to choose a pronoun to use - it couldn't be player-selected.
English: If gender-neutral, print: 'Chris found a new fish. H-She is happy. Check his-her inventory.'
In any case, there must be over a thousand messages in the game for all the packs, so it's not reasonable at this point, especially when you multiply that by all the languages.
Editing to add: I only used Russian because it's a language I've studied, and it's an inflective language, which is quite different from English. Unfortunately, Russian transgender people have a lot more than pronouns to worry about.
They and them are the PLURAL form a a GROUP of people. I would view someone to not know the English language very well if said person used those words to refer to a single person. But that is just me as a traditionalist and only believe a person is either male or female. I use pronouns that describe a person as male, female, and if I don't know that person well, I may refer as an it. I think it is unrealistic to expect more change in the game.
I'm sure ‘they’ and ‘their’ can be used as singular pronouns just fine. The word ‘it’ would probably not be the best choice to describe a human with an ambiguous gender, or describing humans in general.
Honestly, you kind of played yourself with the whole ‘not knowing the English language very well’ part.
This'll probably have to wait until Sims 5 as it looks too complicated for Sims 4. It could be made a personal choice for each gamer in the name box area perhaps?
In real life being older I am still trying to come to terms with being called by my first name, it's over friendly by people I may not want to be friends with. I wouldn't mind my Sims being called Mrs, Miss, Ms, Mr, or even Sir or Lord. I need a third name box too.
They and them are the PLURAL form a a GROUP of people. I would view someone to not know the English language very well if said person used those words to refer to a single person. But that is just me as a traditionalist and only believe a person is either male or female. I use pronouns that describe a person as male, female, and if I don't know that person well, I may refer as an it. I think it is unrealistic to expect more change in the game.
I've heard they or their used not as a plural once, but it was used in an impersonal way IE: (To childs parents) you may bring your child with you, but they are responsible for their own stuff.
I agree with the only male or female bit, though I don't think I'd ever refer to someone as an it.
It's also a lot more complex than people think to add pronouns... What most people forget is that there are a lot of interlocking pronouns based on a persons biological sex combined with age and familial status.
Son, Daughter, Nephew, Niece, Man, Woman, Boy, Girl, Father, Mother, Wife, Husband... To name just some.
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
I love your gender options and I love making my non-binary and trans sims, but I would really like if sims could have some extra pronoun options. Especially since I don't know many non-binary people who use just she/her or he/him pronouns. I use they/them and he/him depending on my gender fluid days.
If they/them could be added into the game that would be amazing. If the game devs wanted to take it a step further there could be a fill-in box for special pronouns. I know there are some less common ones that enby people use such as ze/zir or ze/zim (I had to look these up but I know there are a lot more than just that)
Anyway I'd just love it if my sim could have they/them pronouns because to be honest seeing chat boxes telling me about my sim-self's latest adventures with she/her pronouns kind of stings
EDIT: I realize I never mentioned how I thought this idea should be done when I suggested it. I think (in CAS specifically, when creating a sim or when doing a cas.fulledit mode) having a "check a box" style pronoun choice is an ideal way to do it. Putting it in the same menu with all the other gender identities such as body type and ability to get pregnant would be the ideal way to do it.
Yes, changing the text boxes would be a lot of work, so maybe it's not realistic but I have yet to see a thread suggesting it, so I thought I would put it out there. If the devs don't know a change can be made or how it can be made, then obviously they have no way to make that change. Somebody had to suggest it, and I thought why not me.
Thank you to the people who have been positive towards the suggestion and giving positive feedback
The pronoun is they for non-binary genders in The English Language and used as a plural pronoun. When I write both for fiction and original stories I invent new pronouns used for non-binary genders other than they. Since my stories are set in the future or on alien worlds. I get bored and create languages just to entertain myself. I love linguistics with a passion. I could go into a scathing brutal history lesson but it would be offensive to some people and I wish to avoid offending any of you by talking about history's more brutal moments.
Being Half Native American I can say that with some Native American languages there are non-gender, gender fluid, transgender, intersex etc pronouns. I don't feel like giving a long dissertation on linguistics. Sweeden has hen which is from my understanding a gender-neutral pronoun
Playtesting - not just tabletop games and card games any more. Really that should have been playtested in Beta and not [img]just with accounting and marketing but actual players. https://i.imgur.com/t48COW6.jpg[/img]
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
actually they ARE real words. Google it. Basically everything you type was once "gibberish"
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
Say what?? Never mind new pronouns should not be created if we have to use auncle and nibling. Seriously though is this true?? I never heard of it. I am starting to feel sheltered a bit.
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
Say what?? Never mind new pronouns should not be created if we have to use auncle and nibling. Seriously though is the true?? I never heard of it. I am starting to feel sheltered a bit.
they're very new..I only heard of it because of Not Always Right story
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
actually they ARE real words. Google it. Basically everything you type was once "gibberish"
the other option to talk about aunts and uncles are parsib and pibling
I did better than google I used a dictionary. You will not find “nibling”, “auncle”, “parsib”, or “pibling” in ANY version of ANY dictionary because they are not legitimate words and have no legitimate value to the English language. There is no debate to even be had here. Reddit is not a dictionary.
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
Say what?? Never mind new pronouns should not be created if we have to use auncle and nibling. Seriously though is the true?? I never heard of it. I am starting to feel sheltered a bit.
Don’t let this individual make you feel that way. Those aren’t real words.
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
actually they ARE real words. Google it. Basically everything you type was once "gibberish"
the other option to talk about aunts and uncles are parsib and pibling
I did better than google I used a dictionary. You will not find “nibling”, “auncle”, “parsib”, or “pibling” in ANY version of ANY dictionary because they are not legitimate words and have no legitimate value to the English language. There is no debate to even be had here. Reddit is not a dictionary.
just because they aren't in the dictionary NOW doesn't mean that they might be in the dictionary in the FUTURE. At one time "mother, father, house, brother, sister, aunt or uncle or cousins" you wouldn't have been able to find in a dictionary but you can now
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
actually they ARE real words. Google it. Basically everything you type was once "gibberish"
the other option to talk about aunts and uncles are parsib and pibling
I did better than google I used a dictionary. You will not find “nibling”, “auncle”, “parsib”, or “pibling” in ANY version of ANY dictionary because they are not legitimate words and have no legitimate value to the English language. There is no debate to even be had here. Reddit is not a dictionary.
just because they aren't in the dictionary NOW doesn't mean that they might be in the dictionary in the FUTURE. At one time "mother, father, house, brother, sister, aunt or uncle or cousins" you wouldn't have been able to find in a dictionary but you can now
That couldn’t be further from the truth. English as a spoken language predates modern dictionaries by hundreds of years. You won’t find a dictionary that excludes the most basic English. That is just not true. As I said, there’s really no debate to be had here. Until they are recognized as legitimate English they aren’t words. End of story.
"nibling" is for a niece or nephew. and there's "auncle" (could be used to describle a bi-gender parents' sibling but it could also be used to describle a group of aunt and uncles" "There were a bunch of auncles and 3 cousins last night at a cast party last night"
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
actually they ARE real words. Google it. Basically everything you type was once "gibberish"
the other option to talk about aunts and uncles are parsib and pibling
I did better than google I used a dictionary. You will not find “nibling”, “auncle”, “parsib”, or “pibling” in ANY version of ANY dictionary because they are not legitimate words and have no legitimate value to the English language. There is no debate to even be had here. Reddit is not a dictionary.
just because they aren't in the dictionary NOW doesn't mean that they might be in the dictionary in the FUTURE. At one time "mother, father, house, brother, sister, aunt or uncle or cousins" you wouldn't have been able to find in a dictionary but you can now
That couldn’t be further from the truth. English as a spoken language predates modern dictionaries by hundreds of years. You won’t find a dictionary that excludes the most basic English. That is just not true. As I said, there’s really no debate to be had here. Until they are recognized as legitimate English they aren’t words. End of story.
WRONG Latin predates English, French, Spanish, etc As did Greek, Technically we had 3 maybe 4 different forms of "English" there's old English (Chauncey's) basically its where we get the livestocks name before they're used for food, and then we had Middle English (with some French influence-hence stuff like BEEF, VENISON, etc) and "Modern English" (aka Shakespeare "Thee" "Thou" ) or "Late Modern English" aka (Oliver Twist) so which English are you talking about?
Comments
I would never suggest removing she/her or he/him at all. I think the three options is the ideal. No, I respect cis people and trans people on the binary spectrum who use he/him or she/her, they are just as valid in their pronoun preferences as I am and I would never pigeon hole them into something they don't like
That sounds really cool. Which language is that?
Anyway, I definitely agree with you that three options is ideal.
Thank you Modsey, that was what I got worried about that he and she would be removed. You've been very respectful to those of us who want to keep he and she etc. And I hope I have shown you the same respect. I would also hope if someone created a transSim they could keep the he or she for that Sim (if that's what they want).
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But the easiest way for the user would be using a drop-down menu, from a UI - and adding a they/them option (as well as the he/him, she/her) to be assigned to that particular sim - this option I think would be the best option for a user POV, easy peasey less work for the user
Are you 100% sure people weren't joking about autism being a gender? That's highly offensive to autistic people, and badly misrepresents true autistic people.
Anyway, I'd prefer to view that pronouns represent sex, not gender. Sims only have two sexes, so they're simpler to "deal" with. Sim babies are born male or female, and we casually use "boy" or "girl" instead of formal "male" or "female," not necessarily trying to force a gender, just being casual/cute with it. Babies are born with physical parts or certain coding and parents or players project gender onto them. Worrying about pronouns as gender words instead of sex words causes more upset than it could. (Though I know it's based on PRIVATE parts, and society wants it very public, which can be uncomfortable.)
I know that people don't see it that way but perhaps that's the switch that would actually catch on/work? Well, "they" is popular in a different way. People use "they" a lot anyway, but unfortunately it's to lazily refer to anyone, including girly-girls and macho men, haha. That taints it some for me, and TS4 already does that sometimes, right?
"She" isn't an insult
The Sims 4 isn't that new. It's already established. Like it or not, it's kind of older than when this movement got popular. People think of it as current, but that'll change. Sadly, "live service" can only bring so much. There are a lot of things people want from TS4, and deserve from The Sims, that may not be possible with TS4.
Please do request a framework that will comfortably allow this with TS5.
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EA, fix the EA app & CAW EIG!
It really wouldn't be that hard from a coding point of view, its all just variables. The hardest part would be actually on the user inputting every variation of the pronoun they wanted their sim to use.
I don't think it's variable code, only because other languages aren't like English. I expect that the messages are mostly hard-coded - if the Sim is 'female', one message is generated for the notification board or chance cards; if the Sim is male, a different message is generated. Otherwise, you'd have to have numerous variables, depending on the language. Every single word would have to be variable; moreover, the word order isn't the same in every language.
English: Chris found a new fish. (insert He-She) is happy. Check (insert his-her) inventory.
French: Chris found a new fish. (insert He-She) is happy(insert female-male ending). Check his-her one's (the possessive pronoun is gender-neutral and matches the thing possessed) inventory.
Russian (rusty): Chris found(insert female-male ending) new fish. (insert He-She) happy(insert male-female ending). Check his-her one's (the possessive pronoun is gender-neutral and matches the thing possessed) inventory.
Obviously, it's much easier to code:
English: If female, print: 'Chris found a new fish. She is happy. Check her inventory.' If male, print: 'Chris found a new fish. He is happy. Check his inventory.'
French: If female, print: 'Chris a trouvé un nouveau poisson. Elle est contente. Voyez son inventaire. If male, print: 'Chris a trouvé un nouveau poisson. Il est content. Voyez son inventaire.
That would make gender-neutral rather simple, actually, but they'd have to choose a pronoun to use - it couldn't be player-selected.
English: If gender-neutral, print: 'Chris found a new fish. H-She is happy. Check his-her inventory.'
In any case, there must be over a thousand messages in the game for all the packs, so it's not reasonable at this point, especially when you multiply that by all the languages.
Editing to add: I only used Russian because it's a language I've studied, and it's an inflective language, which is quite different from English. Unfortunately, Russian transgender people have a lot more than pronouns to worry about.
Honestly, you kind of played yourself with the whole ‘not knowing the English language very well’ part.
In real life being older I am still trying to come to terms with being called by my first name, it's over friendly by people I may not want to be friends with. I wouldn't mind my Sims being called Mrs, Miss, Ms, Mr, or even Sir or Lord. I need a third name box too.
I've heard they or their used not as a plural once, but it was used in an impersonal way IE: (To childs parents) you may bring your child with you, but they are responsible for their own stuff.
I agree with the only male or female bit, though I don't think I'd ever refer to someone as an it.
It's also a lot more complex than people think to add pronouns... What most people forget is that there are a lot of interlocking pronouns based on a persons biological sex combined with age and familial status.
Son, Daughter, Nephew, Niece, Man, Woman, Boy, Girl, Father, Mother, Wife, Husband... To name just some.
None of those are real words. I refuse to entertain the idea of inserting gibberish like this into the game.
The pronoun is they for non-binary genders in The English Language and used as a plural pronoun. When I write both for fiction and original stories I invent new pronouns used for non-binary genders other than they. Since my stories are set in the future or on alien worlds. I get bored and create languages just to entertain myself. I love linguistics with a passion. I could go into a scathing brutal history lesson but it would be offensive to some people and I wish to avoid offending any of you by talking about history's more brutal moments.
Being Half Native American I can say that with some Native American languages there are non-gender, gender fluid, transgender, intersex etc pronouns. I don't feel like giving a long dissertation on linguistics. Sweeden has hen which is from my understanding a gender-neutral pronoun
actually they ARE real words. Google it. Basically everything you type was once "gibberish"
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephew_and_niece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_3667000/3667379.stm
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1hgkwp/til_the_plural_genderneutral_term_for_nieces_and/
the other option to talk about aunts and uncles are parsib and pibling
Say what?? Never mind new pronouns should not be created if we have to use auncle and nibling. Seriously though is this true?? I never heard of it. I am starting to feel sheltered a bit.
they're very new..I only heard of it because of Not Always Right story
I did better than google I used a dictionary. You will not find “nibling”, “auncle”, “parsib”, or “pibling” in ANY version of ANY dictionary because they are not legitimate words and have no legitimate value to the English language. There is no debate to even be had here. Reddit is not a dictionary.
Don’t let this individual make you feel that way. Those aren’t real words.
just because they aren't in the dictionary NOW doesn't mean that they might be in the dictionary in the FUTURE. At one time "mother, father, house, brother, sister, aunt or uncle or cousins" you wouldn't have been able to find in a dictionary but you can now
That couldn’t be further from the truth. English as a spoken language predates modern dictionaries by hundreds of years. You won’t find a dictionary that excludes the most basic English. That is just not true. As I said, there’s really no debate to be had here. Until they are recognized as legitimate English they aren’t words. End of story.
WRONG Latin predates English, French, Spanish, etc As did Greek, Technically we had 3 maybe 4 different forms of "English" there's old English (Chauncey's) basically its where we get the livestocks name before they're used for food, and then we had Middle English (with some French influence-hence stuff like BEEF, VENISON, etc) and "Modern English" (aka Shakespeare "Thee" "Thou" ) or "Late Modern English" aka (Oliver Twist) so which English are you talking about?