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The Social Cost of Re-Uploading and Suggestion to Improve the Gallery

TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
edited April 2017 in The Sims 4 Game Feedback
(Rewriting my original post to make my point more explicitly clear)

Introduction

Something that is often discussed on the issue with re-uploading lots. I am not here to accuse anyone, or to imply any moral issues with this. The fact remains that by uploading to the gallery, all creators implicitly agree to have their uploads freely distributed by anyone who wants to. It remains up to the person who downloads gallery creations to decide what to do.

Maybe there are philosophical and moral implications, but that's another debate and frankly something I want to avoid. What I do want to highlight today is another issue that is often ignored, but I think it leads to a few issues in the gallery that should be addressed.

"Case Study" (Not nearly comprehensive enough to have any statistical or scientific value, but interesting nonetheless)

A few random searches and sorting by "Popular Now" yields these results
fdkmCrW.png

What we see here, is that many of the top weekly downloads are simply re-uploaded lots of already popular creations. The way the gallery UI works, is that uploads are arranged in 2 rows of 3. Upon closer inspection, one can see a division of download count between the 2nd row (since it appears on the "front page") and the 3rd row (does not appear on the "front page") Moreover, there is a nontrivial division between the download count between each subsequent row. So position in the gallery actually does matter. This leads us to an issue. If re-uploaded lots are taking up the top spots, it makes it less likely for new original uploads to be seen by the community. This makes it harder for newcomers to be noticed, and gives incentive for people to simply re-upload lots while discouraging people from making an effort to make new stuff.

So how is this different from the usual "XXX stole my stuff"?

Let me reiterate. This isn't about what a creator might feel about his or her creations being re-uploaded. The problem I am trying to address is everyone who uses the gallery is effectively a third party who is negatively affected by re-uploaded lots, whether they are trying to get noticed in the gallery or if they simply want something completely new. This secondary effect is independent to the original creator and the re-uploader, and completely unrelated to any debate on the possible moral implications (or lack thereof) of re-uploading.

Keywords: externalities, social cost

Why Does this Matter to You?

As a Creator
Pretty self explanatory. Whether or not you really care about credit to the original creator, it is still nice to know people enjoy your creations.

As a Downloader
A lot of times these re-uploads are easily found when sorted by "Most Popular" and having them also show up in the "Popular Now" is redundant. Redundancy is incompatible with variety. Having more variety is good for everyone.

My Suggestion

In my opinion, the gallery should serve 2 purposes:
  1. To promote sharing - does this very well
  2. To promote creativity - does this in theory, but the problem I am trying to address hinders it
The gallery sorting options are severely lacking, and this is an issue that has been brought up in different contexts. While the sheer number of uploads may cause logistical difficulties in overhauling the gallery, I think it would be beneficial if there was an option to sort by "Original Only" similar to how there is a way to filter lots with custom content, or maxis favorites. In addition, the "Original By" tag should be more resistant to being removed.

This means, it will be easier to filter out re-uploaded lots and let original work get more attention from the community. People are still free to re-upload things, since there are practical reasons for doing so such as storage purposes or they are proud of a particular renovation, but it discourages individuals who continuously re-upload completely unaltered lots solely for trying to take credit from other people's work. There are varying opinions on this subject matter, but at the very least, it's reasonable to say that this type of behavior is disrespectful to both creators and the community at large.


(Sorry for the long post. But give me a break here. I spent 4 years of college and eventually also 6 years of grad school writing research proposals. It's pretty much second nature at this point...)



TL;DR Re-uploaded lots can crowd out newer original work, and discourages creativity. Better sorting options to highlight original work can help with this issue.
dgvibNQ.png
Post edited by TheDismalSimmer on

Comments

  • feetinstockingsfeetinstockings Posts: 4,264 Member
    sometimes I download a house I like the look of, but will tweak it. I like open plan houses, or I like the bottom but don't want the top. and if I really like what I have done and know I will use it again, I up load to my own library, for my use only.
  • Missmagoo2Missmagoo2 Posts: 1,254 Member
    edited April 2017
    I HATE when people re-upload work and comment that it's a re-upload, but they don't even bother to mention who the original creators are. #totallynotbitter

    And what's with the gallery set-up?

    I'm totally confused how the gallery works. It's a mess. Sometimes I'll type the name of my creations into the search bar and it'll take me directly to what I uploaded. Other times, it'll say "it doesn't exist" or something. I'll then try the # option and again, it's a hit or miss.
    Like SJM? Like Kpop? Like Greek Mythology?
    ☆゚.*・。゚ Follow me on the gallery ☆゚.*・。゚ Origin ID: Missmagoo2
    O(≧▽≦)O

    (I work with CC so make sure you check that box to see my "hidden" content!)

    L'uinversSims profile: https://luniversims.fr/profile/46983-missmagoo2/
  • plopppo2plopppo2 Posts: 3,420 Member
    The goal of this post is not to name and shame
    I would rather name and shame.

    There should be an entire thread of shame - especially if they are repeat offenders.

    I vote we take them down - nuke them from orbit.

    Why turn the other cheek?
  • EnkiSchmidtEnkiSchmidt Posts: 5,334 Member
    Is that how people use the gallery? By browsing "newest" and "popular now" in the hopes of maybe finding something they can use? Myself, I load the gallery when I'm looking for specific items, then immediately proceed to "search by tag" and dig as deep as needed.
    And please, if you see an "Original By" tag (unless if it's for a build contest or a genuinely interesting renovation), download it from the original uploader. All it takes is a few extra clicks and 10 seconds of scrolling.
    Support creativity!
    This is imo the proper way to handle re-uploads.

  • PsychoSimXXPsychoSimXX Posts: 4,403 Member
    edited April 2017
    This one reason as to why I choose to create my own and don't bother with gallery. Often I have seen the VERY same thing re-uploaded so many times by a large number of different people that it take over the pages of the gallery. So I just don't even bother half the time. The only thing I use the gallery for to store what I have made for my own game and to share it with those who might want it. When I am stuck on how to dress a Sim I have made, I will browse the gallery for ideas, but then I deal with the same thing. The same sims re-uploaded by others. Sometimes the ones who are doing the re-uploading have more followers and more downloads than the original upload.


    Follow me on Twitter


    Check out my Gallery


    Peace, Love, and Unity.

    `•.,¸¸,.•´¯ ¯`•.,¸¸,.•´
  • stilljustme2stilljustme2 Posts: 25,082 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    If people are saving to the gallery for their own library without having to overload the 'tray' then maybe there should be an option for us to keep those private. That way we could reupload other people's work but we're just saving it for later in the cloud without having to overload our own library tray.

    I don't think I have done this but I often store my own stuff to the gallery (don't care if it's downloaded or not) so I can remove my tray in game since the tray is known to cause a great deal of lag.

    I use the gallery cloud for storage. Humbled by anyone who would want my stuff, but before I download anything I do check if that is the original creator then go over and look at original creator's work. If it's the very same I download the original if it's changed and I like the changed version better I download the new one and don't feel it's stolen. Because they modified something better to my liking.

    That's the way it is, even in my own creations which I know they take apart my houses, use my rooms in their own creations, they are easy to spot many times.

    I like that idea a lot -- that would especially be good for people who play on multiple computers (maybe they've got an iMac at home and a Windows PC for traveling/college use) but want to at least share content even if they have different saves active on each computer. A check box for "Private" that would keep it from showing up on Gallery searches, but you could still see, would be a great addition. (Not sure who handles Gallery features but maybe @SimGuruDrake could pass along this suggestion? Please give credit to @Cinebar because I don't want to be accused of stealing the idea :o )

    I've only uploaded remodels of Maxis created lots, mostly base game lots where I went in and added basements where I could for additional living space (I'm a fan of basement gyms, and a basement is a great place to store collectibles). If I remodel another creator's work, I don't re-upload it but save it for my own use only.
    Check out my Gallery! Origin ID: justme22
    Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
  • TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
    edited April 2017
    plopppo2 wrote: »
    The goal of this post is not to name and shame
    I would rather name and shame.

    There should be an entire thread of shame - especially if they are repeat offenders.

    I vote we take them down - nuke them from orbit.

    Why turn the other cheek?

    It's against forum rules to do so.

    Thing is, I'm not actually against re-uploading per se. If someone downloads something, makes a few changes, and re-uploads for storage or as a remodel, it's pretty obvious since it has a different price in-game to the original.

    What I don't like is going to a profile and all their top uploads are re-uploaded lots with no changes to them. I actually am following a few of these repeat offenders for the sole purpose of calling them out.

    But mostly I am annoyed that these stolen lots get more downloads than genuinely interesting original work.
    dgvibNQ.png
  • CupidCupid Posts: 3,623 Member
    edited April 2017
    i more or less stopped using the gallery bc i feel so bad when i'm using reuploaded stuff
    and sometimes it's hard as 🐸🐸🐸🐸 to tell esp. since i don't visit the gallery often
    HdLHa3j.png
    (◡‿◡✿)
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    When are y'all gonna learn that people steal. That's life. And that if you don't want to be stolen from then the ONLY way to avoid it is to NOT upload your creations. Once you upload it it's out into the world and people can reupload it. I don't understand why I keep seeing threads about this and the anger honestly.
  • TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
    But see, that's part of the problem too. I am constantly on the gallery and even I find it difficult to tell sometimes. It's really easy to get rid of the original creator tag as well, and when I see a beautifully designed house by an unknown creator, the fact that I need to take a moment to think is very unfair to those who legitimately created the building.

    Which will probably end up being buried by re-uploaded lots anyway...so...
    dgvibNQ.png
  • catmando830catmando830 Posts: 9,117 Member
    edited April 2017
    Missmagoo2 wrote: »
    I HATE when people re-upload work and comment that it's a re-upload, but they don't even bother to mention who the original creators are. #totallynotbitter

    And what's with the gallery set-up?

    I'm totally confused how the gallery works. It's a mess. Sometimes I'll type the name of my creations into the search bar and it'll take me directly to what I uploaded. Other times, it'll say "it doesn't exist" or something. I'll then try the # option and again, it's a hit or miss.

    The original posters name stays with the re-upload. And if someone doesn't want there work used then it's very simple, don't put it on the gallery. When I post my creations I put a note to please give me credit if they re-upload. This is a game and technically everything we make and upload to the gallery is property then of EA. Since I'm an adult I'm not going to go bat-carp-crazy if someone uses my creation w/o giving me credit. Like I stated - "IT'S A GAME"
    plopppo2 wrote: »
    The goal of this post is not to name and shame
    I would rather name and shame.

    There should be an entire thread of shame - especially if they are repeat offenders.

    I vote we take them down - nuke them from orbit.

    Why turn the other cheek?

    Wow, you really going to do that, do it and see what happens - you do know it's big time against the rules.
  • Mstybl95Mstybl95 Posts: 5,883 Member
    Well, I use the gallery as my own personal sim cloud. I will reupload lots that I built from scratch, have tweaked, or just like and want to have handy. I usually put "for my own personal use" in the description. Once in a while I will make a change that I think is awesome to a lot and want to share it only to have it shamed for being a reupload. (Like when I added a pool to the best park I think anyone ever created.)

    Personally, I find it a bit ridiculous how people are so uptight over who is doing what. The terms of service are if you share it, it belongs to EA and the community at large to do what they please with. If you want to be stingy, then don't share your stuff. I have known since TS1 that once my houses and anything else is available to the public, it's open season. They are able to do as they please with it. I actually thought the point of it was to share, not to become instafamous.

    And to be honest...when I used to run a website and it fell into obscurity after I stopped playing TS2 and then went back to TS2 after years...I was very, very happy to find all those reuploads of my houses and recolors.
  • TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
    edited April 2017
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    When are y'all gonna learn that people steal. That's life. And that if you don't want to be stolen from then the ONLY way to avoid it is to NOT upload your creations. Once you upload it it's out into the world and people can reupload it. I don't understand why I keep seeing threads about this and the anger honestly.

    I'm not angry actually, just an economist who wanted to do a bit of a thought experiment one Saturday morning because my week at work wasn't plum enough.

    The point isn't really about the original creator being mad, or sad, or indifferent, it's that re-uploads impose an additional externality that no one talks about. I find this type of stuff interesting.
    dgvibNQ.png
  • plopppo2plopppo2 Posts: 3,420 Member
    edited April 2017
    Well, we can use the forum to protect us:

    Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to:
    • Identity theft
    • Identity fraud


    ^Those are the rules.

    Stealing the work of others is identity fraud.

    I am declaring it - who is going to argue that?

    EDIT:
    In addititon:
    Those found to be engaging in such activity on the Forums, on player profile walls, on the Gallery or in private message chats, will be dealt with severely. Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to....


    IT COVERS THE GALLERY - end of story.
  • plopppo2plopppo2 Posts: 3,420 Member
    Naming and shaming is not valid. If it were valid, then you couldn't report someone for something.

    Quoting a post is technically naming and shaming.

    When you quote someone, it retains what was said - even if they edit their post.
  • feetinstockingsfeetinstockings Posts: 4,264 Member
    you can also think of it this way, when someone downloads a house and tweaks it, add a room, demolish a bathroom, what ever changed they are, it's still creative designing. and if they're really happy with it and think, "mmmm someone else might like this" do they upload it. maybe what they should say in the comments is "original from .......tweaked by me. this gives everyone a choice, the original they might like better, or the one we have tweaked would work better in their game. If its on the Gallery, surely it shouldn't matter who uploads or re uploads. maybe just a note to say who the original designer is.
  • mebagl15mebagl15 Posts: 563 Member
    I usually don't use the Gallery because it is bloated with imo mediocre to bad stuff. I do have names of some of the imo better designers. If I go there it is for inspiration for my own designs. My own designs I save in my personal library, unless it's a challenge, which I enter sparingly.

    I recently was actually surprised that I had 14 downloads on a challenge house that I posted over a year ago. I didn't expect it to be in the gallery limelight for that length of time.

    I don't know if my posted houses have been uploaded, because I never bothered to check. I look at imitation as being an indication that someone else thought your work was good.
  • foussifoussi Posts: 642 Member
    edited April 2017
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    When are y'all gonna learn that people steal. That's life. And that if you don't want to be stolen from then the ONLY way to avoid it is to NOT upload your creations. Once you upload it it's out into the world and people can reupload it. I don't understand why I keep seeing threads about this and the anger honestly.

    Because people want to share their creations they put hours into for other people and it hurts seeing someone steal what you made.
    Reupload is only okay if the person gets credited.
  • CupidCupid Posts: 3,623 Member
    edited April 2017
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    When are y'all gonna learn that people steal. That's life. And that if you don't want to be stolen from then the ONLY way to avoid it is to NOT upload your creations. Once you upload it it's out into the world and people can reupload it. I don't understand why I keep seeing threads about this and the anger honestly.
    by this logic, no complaint about anything is valid because everything is just a part of life :D
    you should try bringing this point up at the next UN meeting
    HdLHa3j.png
    (◡‿◡✿)
  • PsychoSimXXPsychoSimXX Posts: 4,403 Member
    plopppo2 wrote: »
    Well, we can use the forum to protect us:

    Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to:
    • Identity theft
    • Identity fraud


    ^Those are the rules.

    Stealing the work of others is identity fraud.

    I am declaring it - who is going to argue that?

    EDIT:
    In addititon:
    Those found to be engaging in such activity on the Forums, on player profile walls, on the Gallery or in private message chats, will be dealt with severely. Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to....


    IT COVERS THE GALLERY - end of story.

    Actually no it doesn't cover the gallery. For one what is uploaded to the gallery is not owned ore even copywrite by the creator. EA/Maxis owned the rights. So one can scream stolen all they want but legally it isn't. Improper morel conduct yes, but nothing illegal has been done. EA/Maxis don't care, they NEVER have and they NEVER will. Heck I remember back in TS1 loads of my CC would stop working because Maxis would take the mesh from a creator and put into expansion packs. The mesh would be recoded just enough so that the CC the mesh went with didn't work and only the ugly crap that came with EP would. There was this one site that it happened so much that they just stopped. I can't recall what the name of it was something like BNX or BHX. It was an Asian site that much I do know.



    Follow me on Twitter


    Check out my Gallery


    Peace, Love, and Unity.

    `•.,¸¸,.•´¯ ¯`•.,¸¸,.•´
  • plopppo2plopppo2 Posts: 3,420 Member
    plopppo2 wrote: »
    Well, we can use the forum to protect us:

    Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to:
    • Identity theft
    • Identity fraud


    ^Those are the rules.

    Stealing the work of others is identity fraud.

    I am declaring it - who is going to argue that?

    EDIT:
    In addititon:
    Those found to be engaging in such activity on the Forums, on player profile walls, on the Gallery or in private message chats, will be dealt with severely. Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to....


    IT COVERS THE GALLERY - end of story.

    Actually no it doesn't cover the gallery. For one what is uploaded to the gallery is not owned ore even copywrite by the creator. EA/Maxis owned the rights. So one can scream stolen all they want but legally it isn't. Improper morel conduct yes, but nothing illegal has been done. EA/Maxis don't care, they NEVER have and they NEVER will. Heck I remember back in TS1 loads of my CC would stop working because Maxis would take the mesh from a creator and put into expansion packs. The mesh would be recoded just enough so that the CC the mesh went with didn't work and only the ugly plum that came with EP would. There was this one site that it happened so much that they just stopped. I can't recall what the name of it was something like BNX or BHX. It was an Asian site that much I do know.
    The law is irrelevent (legal/illegal) - EA put the Gallery into the forum rules - that is their tough luck.

    I say we rise like an army - a movement - an international species - nation to nation - ocean to ocean - internationally and worldwide - to protect our fellow gallery members - to fight the mother of all wars (excluding TS4 Pets).

    Well, it is something to do on a rainy day.
  • catmando830catmando830 Posts: 9,117 Member
    edited April 2017
    plopppo2 wrote: »
    plopppo2 wrote: »
    Well, we can use the forum to protect us:

    Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to:
    • Identity theft
    • Identity fraud


    ^Those are the rules.

    Stealing the work of others is identity fraud.

    I am declaring it - who is going to argue that?

    EDIT:
    In addititon:
    Those found to be engaging in such activity on the Forums, on player profile walls, on the Gallery or in private message chats, will be dealt with severely. Examples of online bullying include, but are not limited to....


    IT COVERS THE GALLERY - end of story.

    Actually no it doesn't cover the gallery. For one what is uploaded to the gallery is not owned ore even copywrite by the creator. EA/Maxis owned the rights. So one can scream stolen all they want but legally it isn't. Improper morel conduct yes, but nothing illegal has been done. EA/Maxis don't care, they NEVER have and they NEVER will. Heck I remember back in TS1 loads of my CC would stop working because Maxis would take the mesh from a creator and put into expansion packs. The mesh would be recoded just enough so that the CC the mesh went with didn't work and only the ugly plum that came with EP would. There was this one site that it happened so much that they just stopped. I can't recall what the name of it was something like BNX or BHX. It was an Asian site that much I do know.
    The law is irrelevent (legal/illegal) - EA put the Gallery into the forum rules - that is their tough luck.

    I say we rise like an army - a movement - an international species - nation to nation - ocean to ocean - internationally and worldwide - to protect our fellow gallery members - to fight the mother of all wars (excluding TS4 Pets).

    Well, it is something to do on a rainy day.

    You took the part about the Gallery out of context. Using a build from the Gallery and re-uploading is not identify theft or fraud. As more than one person has stated, it is all property of EA and they have no problem with us using what is in the gallery the way we want to.

    @SimGuruDrake - am I wrong?
  • Lady_ChilliLady_Chilli Posts: 157 Member
    I do agree, it is frustrating when you have spent a long time creating something for others to enjoy. As a builder myself I see this happen all the time.
  • Erica87Erica87 Posts: 743 Member
    That's a bit over the top in my opinion. If you want the law to protect you you have to follow the law yourself, which is why you can't open a forum thread or "fight a war". I have a strong dislike against unaltered reuploads but let's not make this issue bigger than it is. The best thing would probably to simply post a note on a stolen upload, that this upload was reuploaded without alterations and that people should support the original creator instead.
    CURRENTLY PLAYING: Forum mafias & Minecraft, mainly.
    Taking a break from the sims for a while!
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