OK, for starters, I'm not going to bash CL or even speculate on how awesome or awful it's going to be. I'm sorry for those of you who are disappointed and really wanted to love this, but there's still time, yeah?
When I got the base game and GTW I was pretty vocal on my opinion that the devs seemed to be out of touch with the Sims. Even though some devs defended their choices, I saw the animations, clippings, lack of memories and family trees, and the return to TS1 for baby/child stages as shortcuts (I still do) and assumed that the devs who were working on this project were just trying doing their job without messing it up too much rather than being passionate about this game. I also felt they were being led by someone who didn't care about the Sims at all which enabled them to play it safe instead of risking failure for an amazing game reward. TS4 (for me) is a generic boring game.
The City Life recent video kinda made me pause because there is a section in it where the developer describes how the dev team brings to the players a whole new set of Sims with [adjective already forgotten, don't want to rewatch] personalities and how they told each other stories when developing these sims, etc. It made me think, the Gurus really are passionate about this game. They love these sims and worlds they're creating that fit perfectly in the stories in their heads... and their passions might actually appeal to a new audience.
Instead of wanting the dev team for TS5 to be more passionate, I think I'll ask: please be a little less passionate. You don't have to tell me a story because I don't care about your sims. I don't care about the buildings you make. I don't care about your game. I want smart sims and materials to dress them, build for them, buy for them and a digital blank canvas to build a world for them to explore. I don't want uneditable pre-fabricated sims (even if they have amazing personalities) in uneditable pre-fabricated lots, in an uneditable pre-fabricated world. Please give me my "you rule" game back in TS5.
...but back to point. I think I can understand a bit better why the devs are sticking to their guns and why this vision may actually appeal to a lot of fans. TS4 is a simple game that can be played casually. It sounds like with City Life the game practically plays itself for players who MarySue themselves into a world and story that has already been told.
TS4 is probably a great game for time-starved players. I hope that TS5 demands sacrifices in players' time and attention.
For those of you who are still excited about the upcoming EP. Enjoy it!
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Except by saying time starved players and those who want to Mary Sue their way into the game that is what you sound like your doing. It may not be your intention, but that is what it sounds like.
For myself, I can assure you I am in no way Time Starved, I don't play the story they set out in the world. Last time I checked if I wanted to I could edit any Sim I came across whether I created them or not. I can edit all lots in the game now, and even though we can't build apartments we will be able to edit the ones that are already there.
Are there limitations to the game? Yes. Is it my all time favorite of the series? No But some of the things you claimed above could not be done I have been doing since almost day one.
100% agree with your statement. The older series took hours out of my day. Sometimes I even got annoyed there were so little hours in a day and would stay up and wake up early just to play a bit more. Sims 4 is interesting for a few hours, very casual gameplay but that's it. Atleast that's how it for me I have to say.
Personally, I feel like gameplay wise, they were really passionate about it. I feel like this is the most they have gone that extra level since Into The Future and World Adventures (the Lot traits are something that I don't think anyone saw coming, but people won't be able to play without).
However, they didn't think of builders. Which is a shame, but until they may allow a similar Sims 2 experience when University comes out.
That said, The Sims 4 has in other ways, catered to builders in other ways. Builders weren't able to build their own Police Stations, Hospitals or Science Labs in the previous games. They could make pretend ones, but not functional ones.
And most likely, when a School based pack (you know it's coming), comes along, I'm sure we'll be able to build those too. As well as other community lots players weren't able to build previously.
I think it's a 'you win some, you lose some' kind of thing. Has always been that way with The Sims. It's just since 4 is...well #4, people expect everything we've ever gotten and more. Which isn't an issue, it's just probably not going to happen.
Insta: https://instagram.com/jkarajs?igshid=oef2ymrand3g
I should put this in my newly-acquired forum signature and wear it proudly! Also with an underline: "Please stop invalidating my experience just because you want to make sweeping generalisations for your arguments."
I am fun at parties, yes.
TS3 was at its most engaging for me when I had a variety of interests to pursue with my sim, a variety of places to visit and a variety of things to be. TS4 has been iterating this social scene vibe to the degree that the expacs so far feel kinda samey. That's my issue. CL at least gives apartments, the trait system for them sounds intriguing so there's that. Not hugely invested in building (though the lack of an open world and the clunky time-consuming way of getting around sucks) and I know the penthouses were shells in TS3 so I'm certainly not mourning its lack now. I don't begrudge the devs telling their stories since it in no way impedes me telling mine. Plus, I like it when worlds feel lived in.
"Instead of wanting the dev team for TS5 to be more passionate, I think I'll ask: please be a little less passionate. You don't have to tell me a story because I don't care about your sims. I don't care about the buildings you make. I don't care about your game. I want smart sims and materials to dress them, build for them, buy for them and a digital blank canvas to build a world for them to explore. I don't want uneditable pre-fabricated sims (even if they have amazing personalities) in uneditable pre-fabricated lots, in an uneditable pre-fabricated world. Please give me my "you rule" game back in TS5."
So if I'm getting this right: You don't think the gurus show any passion with this game initially until you seen some advertising for the new Expansion, you then acknowledge they are passionate but you don't want them to be?
As if by not being passionate about the game you are going to get all of the above? I'm confused.
I think your bottom line about time starved players is actually a little offensive to players that do enjoy the game.
Time-starved is not an insulting term
How much time do you spend playing the Sims 4 in one sitting? Hours and hours? I've fallen asleep at my desk playing TS2 after playing for almost 24 hours straight... I have to make sure that I have a vacation or long weekend before I turn on that game because I risk getting NOTHING done until I turn the game off. A lot of time in TS2 is spent creating and building and customising just to play.
And if you watched the video, they explicitly state that #1 you can't edit the apartments your sims live in and #2 the townies are specially made for this city. Are you making your own townies? I did that for TS2, but I didn't think it was possible for TS4.
What are you doing to edit the sims you came across? You can change their personality and appearance?
The MarySue comment is because they already have their TV sitcom style world for City Life planned, you are inserting your Sim into that world... I don't think my comment was off the mark.
I haven't seen enough to know if there are any regular lots in CL but I believe there are. You can edit the apartments your sims live in. You can't edit the building the apartments are housed in. You can fully edit the penthouse, including making it a commercial or community venue.
They made townies specifically for this city because they wanted to add some quirky flair. I don't believe you are required to keep those townies and would be shocked if that were the case. As in all other worlds in TS4, I assume you should be able to delete all of the townies, replace them with your own, take any townie already in the game and change their looks, traits, aspirations and wardrobe. Not sure where you got the idea that you can't make your own townies in this game. If this is something they do in CL, it will be the first time they've done it in this game. So far the only uneditable NPC I know of has been Jasmine. The rest (even the tragic clown) are random NPCs.
The MarySue comment is insulting and way off the mark for probably most of the people who enjoy this version. I personally play for stories--MY stories and rarely spend too much time with Maxis made characters at all. I've never played any of the already-made families or even looked into their stories too much, though some I'm obviously familiar with from past games, etc. Even if, by some bizarre chance, Maxis has made it so there are mandatory townies in the game that you can't get rid of, we have plenty of space to place our own sims and townies and I STILL wouldn't be focusing on their townies or their stories when I play.
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning psychopath. Reaper
Besides, you can sort of "Mary Sue" your way in older Sims games, too (because there are sims with their own backstories back then, too), so I'm not sure why you are pointing out that particular aspect as the main thing that Sims 4 players are doing?
To me, something about the tone of the OP post sounds a bit condescending towards Sims 4 players, so maybe that's why some simmers are taking issue with it?
(She/her)
You just said you are not time-stavred, therefore it does not apply to you, so why bother?
I'll speak to that as a Simmer who feels insulted by the statements: Because it makes assumptions that cast me in a poor light. It says that the game wouldn't appeal to me if I spent more than a tiny, superficial amount of time with it at once. It says (in some of the rest) that it's only good for people who play Mary-Sue, weaving grandiose fantasies about themselves (and yes, I know about the whole Mary-Sue phenomenon, right back to its origins), in a self-centred way. It assumes, like so many precursor statements, that the Sims 4 audience is superficial, immature, and likes to have their hands held. It is insulting. And it's a kind of insulting that I believe we were told no longer belongs on these boards.
We can say what we like about the game. Talking about the people who play it (or who make it) is a whole other thing. There's plenty to criticize without shifting the lens from the game to the players or making broad presumptions about the game-makers' motivations.
FWIW, I'm down with the evidence that the team is genuinely passionate about this EP. I think it's really cool that like they drew on some of their own backgrounds to come up with Windenburg, they also drew on some of themselves and their lives for this EP. That's pretty awesome, and maybe it's part of why what I've seen so far feels so right to me as someone who has lived for decades in the heart of a big city.
Ah, you always say what I want to but much more eloquently.
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning psychopath. Reaper
Again: how long do you enjoy the game in one sitting? Do you spend all day playing TS4 or do you play it for a couple hours have fun and then do something else. Is it a game you can easily walk away from and then pick back up? Are you a busy person? Or are you just someone who has NOTHING else to do like a child and can sit in front of their computer all day playing video games? I think you guys are just looking for a reason to take offence because I'm acknowledging that TS4 is a game that caters to players with a life and that this isn't an unreasonable vision
I don't think this is possible in TS4. Please if I stand corrected, I'm happy to do so. But if you're limited to your EA designed world--then stop acting like I've said something unfathomable... geez.
This is a TS2 artist... this is what a 10+ year old game made possible. I don't think this is something the devs have imagined and let's say that you wanted a slum, famous city, port town in TS4... do you think it would be possible with City Life?
EA's idea of a vibrant TS2 Apartment Life and Downtown (City Life):
Where players were able to with the base that they provided:
If you can create your own radically unique worlds and people them your own radically unique sims, then show me. I bought all of TS3 recently because TS3 players were able to convince me that it was possible to tell great stories and make decent looking TS3 sims and not those creepy doughy face sims that put me off that game.
If you can't do this, then please pardon me but I'm sticking my argument that TS4 sims are MarySue sims in a pre-fab game. Show me that "You Rule" is more than an ironic tag line... don't just try to shout me down with "OMG, you're totally judging players" comments. Because that's just not true--I'd be more than happy to be impressed with your unique one-of-a-kind TS4 game. And for the record, I don't begrudge you for liking your own game.
I thought TS4 was being developed by people who were just doing their job... EA is a big company, one would think it is possible for a developer who loves games like FIFA to get stuck developing the Sims and while they do their best, they lack the passion to be innovative and end up making decisions that favour practicality and productivity (like no longer using full animations) and limiting risk of game design failures (since their name is attached to the project). However, I can't say I'm convinced by my earlier argument after watching this video.
Chill out, I wasn't bashing the game or its players. Sure there were times when I wondered what kind of player would actually enjoy a game like TS4 initially, but SOME of you have explained to me politely why you like it so I can't affect to be shocked that the game still sells. However, this had nothing to do with your play; it was about the change in my opinion of the devs and why they made the decisions they made. And it doesn't change the fact that I think the game is lame--it just points out that my original argument (the devs weren't as passionate as former devs) doesn't coincide with what I saw in the latest video. *That* is why I argued if that is the case, then be less passionate for TS5, because (for me) all this passion still puts out a game I don't like and at the end of the day a TS5 that I'll enjoy is all I care about. You just keep on keeping on with your TS4
Happy simming.
(She/her)
You totally can MarySue yourself in other games! You can do it in TS2 as well. Not arguing that. Updated EPs always came with prefab sims and worlds to play. The big 'however' is that you weren't stuck playing only these worlds with only these townies since TS2. If this is not the case for TS4, then I stand corrected, but did you guys see something that I didn't see.
And for the MarySue offending you all... what is another way to say: your sim is inserted into a world with characters that already have their own story and your sim becomes the main character of that story... without being insulting of course? Please advise
The latest StarWars was arguably a MarySue story and I loved it; I'm referring to the trope and not talking about fanfiction. The term MarySue wasn't meant imply you all are thirteen year kids who want to marry a fictional vampire. I doubt kids are as time-starved as adults anyway and can play TS4 along with a bazillion other video games for much longer periods of time. Unless they are TS4 sim kids...
Never would I tell the developers to be less passionate and I'm so happy they're getting more invested in the game.
I also think that with this pack they have been seriously trying to listen to our demands, with critters, dirty/grungy apartments and apartment traits - which we didn't even ask for but is an AMAZING idea. The list only goes on and on. I remember reading people asking for these things even before the EP was announced, so the Developers are really trying to make this game fit our tastes.
In the blog it was mentioned 'Trait apartments allow you to tell your story', this reveals to me that the Devs understand you want to create your own story, and if you don't care about their sims, delete them, you have the freedom to do that, because it's your game and 'you rule'.
The Sims 4 gave you the ability to build your own restaurants, you can even make your own schools and work places with the use of a cheat, instead of disappearing into rabbit holes which give you absolutely no freedom. This is the one pack where a building can't be placed anywhere in the worlds,
Spa day (Spa), Dine out (Restaurants), Windenburg (Coffee shops), Get to Work (Retail Stores) - all of these could be built personally and placed anywhere in the world, yet this single pack doesn't have the option and immediately you treat it as if it were mandatory to play pre-mades, live in pre-built homes and step into rabbit holes as soon as you leave for work.
Yes, there do need to be improvements that allow people to play in the way they want to, traits do need to have a bigger effect than being 'perks' and there should be more to change the actual antics of a sim - just like evil sims laugh manically and insane sims talk to themselves. Though, I don't think we should be talking about Sims 5 here, instead of pushing problems forward and saying 'fix it later', they should be fixing it in this current game. For all we know Sims 5 wont be here for many, many more years, if I'm lucky that is because I want them to concentrate on making Sims 4 a great game.
Maybe it would help if someone made a post where people gave ideas on 'How to make Sims smarter/have more personality', that might cultivate some inspiration for the Devs, instead of just complaining about a vague idea.
Happy simming. You didn't have to prove squat about liking the game. You are challenging my assertions about the game being pre-fab which could appeal to time-starved players (which implies that they don't need to spend a lot of time customising their sim's world and want to play immediately with "vibrant" sims in a "vibrant" city), and to say that your play directly challenges what I've said, yes the burden of proof very much falls on you. Otherwise, you're lying.
Don't argue with an appeal to emotion--it's fallacious and annoying. I'm sorry if you're insulted, but I can't control that. That doesn't change my opinion of the game, because no one yet has contradicted my comments. I'm always open to changing my opinion if someone has a valid argument. My reaction to the City Life video is case and point of that...
And you guys turned this into a thread about yourselves. It's not always about you, but whatever. Anyway, I'm more than happy to hear that TS4 is not a pre-fab game... except that the video from City Life indicates that that is exactly what it is. If you guys are going to argue that this is just not true, then I'm open to your arguments, but you're not really making any arguments to say "OMG, I'm so insulted" for which I can only say: that wasn't the point of my thread... happy simming. I stand my main argument.
Thank you for your very thoughtful post @dreamprisoner --I think we cross-posted as I didn't see this when I wrote my latest response, which is why I said no one has posted anything outside of whinging about how insulted they were which is a bit absurd at this point. I'll take my time and reread what you said, but I didn't want you think my response in any way was related to your post!
So Sims 2?
2. The Sims 3
3. The Sims 4 (5 years later its decent)
4. The Sims 1
I love the sims 2 but it's no longer supported with bug fixes and patches/content so I don't play it anymore. Plus I think the sims are kinda ugly.
My perfect game would be ts2 gameplay with ts4 graphics.
I used the term MarySue because what you've just described is that literary device. I will assert again, that what you've described is exactly what I was imagining when I used the term. No disrespect meant.
I'm sorry, I just want to be clear, should I infer from the comment I've bolded that you too thought the devs weren't as invested in TS4 as one would expect them to be for this franchise? Are you suggesting that they are becoming passionate as the series progresses? I'm saying that maybe they've always been as passionate as they've claimed to be from day one, but that I was biased and could not see this.
If you delete sims in TS4 don't they just auto generate. It sounds like the city has types of sims programmed in like TS2 had its weird social groups, that was in the code, yes? They auto-generated... with the same "social" personality types. Perhaps this falls under speculation, but I was assuming that would be the same for TS4 "vibrant" city sims.
For City Life it is mandatory. That is why I'm talking about the game here in the EP section and not the General TS4 discussion section
That is the only point I was trying to make. I wish I could find the article where Will Wright basically reminded his developers (who were extremely passionate about the development of the original sims) to not get too caught up in their own stories because the player was in charge of that... if the devs are so passionate about developing characters and world they love to the point where changes can't be made (gameplay AND visual) then that's going to be a problem for me if they stick to this type of development when they start developing TS5. It might be good for you if you like this style, but it's bad for me, so I'm going to thumb it down now (you as a TS4 player have the advantage of telemetrics... I'm not playing my game, so the devs won't know what I think about the gameplay unless I post comments here)
I think that is a great idea, do you want to put the bell on the cat and ask SimGuruDrake for a post like this in the feedback or general discussion section?
And again, thank you for actually giving me something to discuss here. I do like hearing different ideas : ) And I have to apologise but I also though @jackjack_k's post was a great post as well.
Edit: not sure why but all that quoting messed up this thread. Fixed it.
I'm not interested in making arguments, or "challenging" or convincing you, which is why I'm not participating.
Happy simming.
(She/her)
And I thought you already stated that?
Please going forward, add me to your ignore list if you're going to say I'm wrong because you're offended... that's really annoying and immature. I've already said something along these lines, but since we're on repeat for some reason...