I was really happy with the December patch. I said it was the biggest and the best patch we got so for. What makes me angry is why a serious issue/mechanic/feature like this was not even mentioned in the patch? Did EA know that the reaction to it would not be good? Yes it would have been a not good one but at least we would not have been in the dark.
To me personally with EA hiding the relationship culling from the patch is like someone offering me a honey mixed with poison. No exaggeration. I exactly feel that way. I feel very deceived.
If I knew that, I would not have updated the game until there was a mod for this relationship culling. I have made a backup to my game before updating the patch but going back to that backup will mean losing many hours of progress.
Get Together has made the game so much better but with this relationship culling it feels that Sims are not going to get together anymore. they will keep forgetting each other completely.
What EA added to the game and to our sims is nothing but Alzheimer disease and dementia. This is very sad.
I am still stunned and can't find any excuse for this mechanism specially in preparation of an expansion pack that aims to get the sims together and become friends and more!! How can that be justified?
When I was very happy in the last few weeks about how the game was shaping up something like this comes up telling me that I should not be happy. I don't want it to sound too dramatic but It feels to me like there is someone in EA who deliberately is trying to destroy this game completely and make us players abandon it.
Everything I post is an opinion here and I think every post of others is as well.
Just to add on my original post for the Techtards: Building a computer is easy if you have a good manual and basic knowledge (which isn't a whole lot) of what to and what not to do. You can also let a store build it for you. Installing Windows is easy too. The only thing that makes things a little difficult is configuring the OS, like splitting the harddrive into two partitions to avoid data loss if Windows dies. Or even better, using two actual separate harddrives. One entirely for the OS, and one entirely for data. It basically turns all your data into an immediate local backup in case your "Windows drive" crashes.
Don't buy a prebuilt PC. Buy parts and THEN let a store build it for you, you're better off that way. At least here in the Netherlands.
Computers aren't scary. We invented it, after all. Spiders however are a different story. 🐸🐸🐸🐸 those things.
I was really happy with the December patch. I said it was the biggest and the best patch we got so for. What makes me angry is why a serious issue/mechanic/feature like this was not even mentioned in the patch? Did EA know that the reaction to it would not be good? Yes it would have been a not good one but at least we would not have been in the dark.
To me personally with EA hiding the relationship culling from the patch is like someone offering me a honey mixed with poison. No exaggeration. I exactly feel that way. I feel very deceived.
If I knew that, I would not have updated the game until there was a mod for this relationship culling. I have made a backup to my game before updating the patch but going back to that backup will mean losing many hours of progress.
Get Together has made the game so much better but with this relationship culling it feels that Sims are not going to get together anymore. they will keep forgetting each other completely.
What EA added to the game and to our sims is nothing but Alzheimer disease and dementia. This is very sad.
I am still stunned and can't find any excuse for this mechanism specially in preparation of an expansion pack that aims to get the sims together and become friends and more!! How can that be justified?
When I was very happy in the last few weeks about how the game was shaping up something like this comes up telling me that I should not be happy. I don't want it to sound too dramatic but It feels to me like there is someone in EA who deliberately is trying to destroy this game completely and make us players abandon it.
It probably is because Maxis doesn't know what to do with it. I hope to god it isn't hard coded. I think nothing in The Sims 4 is hard coded other than the way the worlds work. Here's hoping they read our threads, huh?
@Ayumap I can't say for sure, but I think the Dec 17th patch ate her. He had a wife before the patch, and after she simply didn't exist anymore. I thought maybe something malfunctioned and their relationship was culled by this new relationship culling issue, but I didn't notice her anywhere in the game walking around either. This totally compromised the culling play test, as I don't know for sure if I hit the culling trigger in the genealogy or if the patch ate his wife and when the game tried to digest the information this was how it responded.
In the end, I became really frustrated with the unknowns and ended the play test. It's entirely possible that the culling in the tree isn't genealogy culling, but a result of the patch and his wife going up in mysterious smoke.
He wasn't a CAS sim, though, and neither were his children. Every Sim in Bonnie's tree was born in the game with the exception of a few spouses that I yoinked in from my library.
I remember people claiming that sims marked "played" were safe from culling, meanwhile there were those who stood by the fact that their "played" sims were in fact being culled. I get the impression her being culled from the game had nothing to do with December and everything to do with the actual sim culling system (deleting sims from existence).
Things like this aren't new to me though. I remember telling people that sims were standing around doing nothing in an infinite animation loop with no time passing. Some didn't believe me, swore it was mods, even when I had video evidence (base game and vanilla). Then later many more people reported the same issue and it was clear it was an actual glitch.
I do like the Sims 4, but I can't for the life of me understand how some people refuse to see issues it has just because they themselves don't currently have them. Like someone mentioned, once they get the issues, then they understand the frustration.
I think this game will always have issues, hopefully not so big that it turns more simmers away (I myself have experienced game breaking bugs in this version), but this issue in particular I think really needs to be fixed because it will affect everyone. The only difference is if the player cares.
I mean...yeah idk. I still to this day feel the people in charge of the Maxis team(s) do not play the game. I don't get how no one catches this or how they think it's working or okay.
I appreciate you sharing your results, but my take away makes me disappointed. At the very least I'm glad they say culling will continue to be monitored, but I wish they'd do more testing rather than using us as the testers first. (I mean it feels that way)
@Stdlr9 Don't feel bad there is an aspect of all this that I find a little amusing too. It's not that people are having problems with their game but it reminds me of a post I read months ago. I don't even remember who said it but someone who was upset that their game play had been effected by the game mechanics. They were pretty much dismissed by the "happy" players so they posted that sooner or later something would be done to effect the satisfied players play style. Turns out to be an accurate prediction.
Not this us and them stuff again, please.
I don't consider this an "us" and "them" situation, unless you consider that there are some people who have the game and some don't. I WANTED to like TS4 so much and have been waiting for over a year for it to be a game that would work for my play style. Instead, it's getting further away. Still, I masochistically keep checking for improvements -- something, ANYTHING, that would make me want to buy it. Hope springs eternal, I guess.
This latest culling feature/bug makes no sense. It's almost like they want to drive gamers away.
I don't consider this an "us" and "them" situation, unless you consider that there are some people who have the game and some don't. I WANTED to like TS4 so much and have been waiting for over a year for it to be a game that would work for my play style. Instead, it's getting further away. Still, I masochistically keep checking for improvements -- something, ANYTHING, that would make me want to buy it. Hope springs eternal, I guess.
This latest culling feature/bug makes no sense. It's almost like they want to drive gamers away.
One word: Majority of people are those with low end hardware.
Actually that's like 9 words. But as EA does business; Less for More is More.
Which doesn't make sense. But it does, because marketing.
I think this relationship culling might work better if the "storyprogress" relationships that the game randomly generates didn't start at ~40. I know it would ease this for me at least if the game started the culling with those.
They will tweak it. Really, they probably will.
It's just this constant non-information and "how long do we wait this time?" that is teeth-grindy.
A good reason why the devs need to be allowed to open up and show us some actual progress or problems. Why is EA so afraid of showing things that are wrong or broken? Give us insight. We, as a community can help and motivate the developers make the game a greater game! It's so frustrating that the suits try to make it seem like EA is a perfect like the families in infomercials or stock photos. Just look at Rachel Franklin. It's like she purposely makes it seem like all she knows is business, not Sims. Yes, The Sims is part of their business, but if you're leading a team of people working on said business, you need to know about it too, not just the commercial stuff.
The thing that irritates me the most, is that they didn't bother to even tell us about this. We got a vague statement about how they raised the culling limit. And now, while we're trying to figure out if this is exactly how they expected it to work, if it's sort of what they have planned but need to tune it further, or if it's a complete mistake, crickets chirp from their end. Surprise! Not. Yeah, I understand it's holiday time but this is ridiculous. They can't drop these bombs on us and go radio silent while players are upset and want clarity. It's great that the modders step up and give workable options for the game breakers but it sits wrong with me when the devs don't take the responsibility for their mistakes, dreadful communication, or poor choices.
Each time they make my jaw drop with the dismal communication. I think to myself that they cannot possibly fail further on the lack of communication. And then they do it again. This is unacceptable. I was finally hopeful that things could change for the better. GT seemed like it might be the step in a more positive experience for players who want OPTIONS. And then the rug is yanked out from under me again. It's really disappointing, and disheartening. Players shouldn't be treated like this.
The game needs to quit setting townie relationship over and above player relationships. I go in to my Cranston family save which is ALL about family ties and the elder wife has romantic relationships with 2 townies, while her husband has romance with 3. It's not fun, or funny.
Yes! It's so frustrating when married couples - (couples that in my mind are very loyal to each other) have little sneaky romances on the side when that's not what I wanted at all. I'd be more accepting if it was sims with the unloyal or whatever trait but its a free for all.
There was an issue with losing relationships with the December patch. It can't be fixed because the data is gone. It was a one time thing. It's not another addition to culling.
It was an unfortunate accident.
What we're discussing here is not a one-time thing. It's ongoing in your game. Do a "Save As", look at your current household members' relationship panels, switch households for a Sim day or two (be sure to stay playing the other household at least one overnight), and switch back. Now try to find the acquaintances your Sims had in the panels. Good luck with that. I have tested this on repaired games, mod-free, new saves, everything. Neia found detailed coding. Now, that coding might not be as intended, but nobody's come to tell us that; as far as any of us exploring this can tell, relationship culling is intentional and here to stay. In which case, I hope they'll see what we're saying about it (such as that I'd rather they cull my dead Sims out of genealogy and leave my living one's relationships alone), tell us how it's meant to be working, and generally be more open about major changes like this.
What the 🐸🐸🐸🐸? Is this new? What's the limit of how many sims you can know?
I'm not going to keep playing this game if they keep up with these pointless limitations. Sims 2 had a 32,000 sim population and I don't recall "relationships" getting culled because they knew too many.
It's awful, it's driving me crazy. Playing rotational has become a big pain. Even Sims that are in the same club need to introduce themselves over and over at gatherings.
How was this on purpose? It's beyond my understanding!
Origin ID is: AlbaWaterhouse
All my creations are CC free.
@Ayumap I can't say for sure, but I think the Dec 17th patch ate her. He had a wife before the patch, and after she simply didn't exist anymore. I thought maybe something malfunctioned and their relationship was culled by this new relationship culling issue, but I didn't notice her anywhere in the game walking around either. This totally compromised the culling play test, as I don't know for sure if I hit the culling trigger in the genealogy or if the patch ate his wife and when the game tried to digest the information this was how it responded.
In the end, I became really frustrated with the unknowns and ended the play test. It's entirely possible that the culling in the tree isn't genealogy culling, but a result of the patch and his wife going up in mysterious smoke.
He wasn't a CAS sim, though, and neither were his children. Every Sim in Bonnie's tree was born in the game with the exception of a few spouses that I yoinked in from my library.
I remember people claiming that sims marked "played" were safe from culling, meanwhile there were those who stood by the fact that their "played" sims were in fact being culled. I get the impression her being culled from the game had nothing to do with December and everything to do with the actual sim culling system (deleting sims from existence).
Things like this aren't new to me though. I remember telling people that sims were standing around doing nothing in an infinite animation loop with no time passing. Some didn't believe me, swore it was mods, even when I had video evidence (base game and vanilla). Then later many more people reported the same issue and it was clear it was an actual glitch.
I do like the Sims 4, but I can't for the life of me understand how some people refuse to see issues it has just because they themselves don't currently have them. Like someone mentioned, once they get the issues, then they understand the frustration.
I think this game will always have issues, hopefully not so big that it turns more simmers away (I myself have experienced game breaking bugs in this version), but this issue in particular I think really needs to be fixed because it will affect everyone. The only difference is if the player cares.
I mean...yeah idk. I still to this day feel the people in charge of the Maxis team(s) do not play the game. I don't get how no one catches this or how they think it's working or okay.
I appreciate you sharing your results, but my take away makes me disappointed. At the very least I'm glad they say culling will continue to be monitored, but I wish they'd do more testing rather than using us as the testers first. (I mean it feels that way)
Sorry for the rant...
Anything is possible. I just hate that there isn't a way for me to narrow down the cause and know for sure. If she's a culled played sim, she would be my first (wish I could remember what she looked like... firsts are important! rofl).
I understand the frustration. I had a lot of issues with my Sims 3 game and in searching for ways to make it run halfway decent I was brushed off a lot. I heard the "doesn't happen to me" enough times to make my head ache... and actually still do in regard to that installment. lol I've been guilty of saying it myself as well.
I think it all boils down to how credible you think the simmer is. I've seen a lot of threads complaining about their game malfunctioning only to find out it was bad cc or they just needed to clear their cache. When you're a player who has already done those things, and you know that it's not bad cc or a conflicting mod, or caches, things do become really frustrating. On the other hand, when you're a player who hasn't seen any of those malfunctions in your own game, it's also frustrating because you have no idea what to do to help the person. Outside of suggesting the normal array of options that they've probably already tried. >.< Frustration abounds all around lol. >.<
I wish they'd do more testing too. I do admit to feeling a bit like a guinea pig and that is why I'll be snagging MC CMD later... I'm tired of play testing and I just want to play. It's hard to do that when your sims have amnesia, though. Thank goodness for passionate modders and that are compassionate enough to share their creations with us!
P.S. Sometimes it's good to rant, no apologies needed!
This is a frustrating statement. It's not "worse" just affecting something else now. They vastly improved genealogy culling, but in plugging that hole we now have a new one... which is aggravating to say the least, because that's not how it should work. I'm not entirely convinced they were thinking. >.< lol Anyway, I believe in credit where credit is due, and in regard to the genealogy culling, the team deserves some serious credit because it is vastly improved... in regard to this irritating relationship culling issue... though... well they really jacked this up, and they a mess to fix, that's for sure.
Sorry I meant from a math perspective the limit would not make things better. Like if you make a fish bowl only so big and you add more Sims and more NPCs and set intensive limits to a game, sooner or later those limits will start effecting gameplay. I knew the 180 limit would not support that many packs because by the time GTW was released, I was already reading feedback about the culling. I guess the family tree update made it easier to spot the culling. The limit now is 210. I think when I added all the lots together from GTW being added, lots would need a limit of about 230 Sims at least. It is probably even more than that now. Like for households, a lot would need to support 8 Sims plus a few NPCs at the minimum. For community lots, it would need to support at least 20 Sims plus some NPCs. So from a math perspective, the culling limitations were not built with packs in mind, but more for a MMO setting.
With the relationship culling however I don't understand what the intent of it was. I mean what does it matter if a Sims has a good relationship or not unless it was to decrease the autonomous woohoo happening in the game? Interesting theory you have thinking it might be tied to family trees. It would be nice if the genealogy culling got stopped, although I still think it is a temporary fix. It would be much better if there was a story progression option like what mods have provided, so we can set our own limits for how many Sims are generated in specific areas of the game and which relationships to maintain or not.
Upon watching some videos of No Man's Sky, it seems like their mathematical system for generating assets is much more stable. Like basically an area loads based on a formula, then when you leave it for another area, the first area you visited isn't currently running, but if you visit it again the memory of that area is retained in the formula. Sean Murray explained it better, but I wish that it could be applied to the Sims games so Sims could have such a vast area to live in and explore. http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/07/22/how-no-mans-sky-infinite-universe-actually-works-ign-first
I think what is frustrating is Simmers have been telling Gurus for months of different issues like culling and incest and reactions not happening in their game and only now they are starting to listen to that feedback. It just makes the ignored feedback from the Sims 3 and SimCity 2013 feel like a déjà vu moment for the Sims 4. Like do Maxis even want to fix their games anymore?
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
A quick note because I saw there was some confusion : NPC Sims means in that context Sims that are not actively played at the moment, and there are different thresholds for played NPC Sims and non-played NPC Sims.
The numbers are not the maximum of friends allowed, you can have as many as you want, but above that threshold the acquaintances may be culled for example. But you can have 20+ familiy members, a dozen of good friends, a bunch of enemies and those won't be culled.
You'll probably notice this culling more if you rotate often (thus don't have the time to build the relation high), tend to have a lot of acquaintances/friends, or have a long rotation (because of the relationship decay).
I may be among the minority here but I actually like some aspects of this culling : it removes all those townies ghosts, all those townies that entered the conversation at one point but that I have no plan to befriend (like all the barmen and masseur), and it means that instead of having 30+ barely friends when I rotate back to a family, I have a dozen of stronger relations.
Having said that the long rotation + relationship decay + relationship culling combo makes it really hard to build, and keep, relationships at the moment.
@Ayumap I can't say for sure, but I think the Dec 17th patch ate her. He had a wife before the patch, and after she simply didn't exist anymore. I thought maybe something malfunctioned and their relationship was culled by this new relationship culling issue, but I didn't notice her anywhere in the game walking around either. This totally compromised the culling play test, as I don't know for sure if I hit the culling trigger in the genealogy or if the patch ate his wife and when the game tried to digest the information this was how it responded.
In the end, I became really frustrated with the unknowns and ended the play test. It's entirely possible that the culling in the tree isn't genealogy culling, but a result of the patch and his wife going up in mysterious smoke.
He wasn't a CAS sim, though, and neither were his children. Every Sim in Bonnie's tree was born in the game with the exception of a few spouses that I yoinked in from my library.
I remember people claiming that sims marked "played" were safe from culling, meanwhile there were those who stood by the fact that their "played" sims were in fact being culled. I get the impression her being culled from the game had nothing to do with December and everything to do with the actual sim culling system (deleting sims from existence).
Things like this aren't new to me though. I remember telling people that sims were standing around doing nothing in an infinite animation loop with no time passing. Some didn't believe me, swore it was mods, even when I had video evidence (base game and vanilla). Then later many more people reported the same issue and it was clear it was an actual glitch.
I do like the Sims 4, but I can't for the life of me understand how some people refuse to see issues it has just because they themselves don't currently have them. Like someone mentioned, once they get the issues, then they understand the frustration.
I think this game will always have issues, hopefully not so big that it turns more simmers away (I myself have experienced game breaking bugs in this version), but this issue in particular I think really needs to be fixed because it will affect everyone. The only difference is if the player cares.
I mean...yeah idk. I still to this day feel the people in charge of the Maxis team(s) do not play the game. I don't get how no one catches this or how they think it's working or okay.
I appreciate you sharing your results, but my take away makes me disappointed. At the very least I'm glad they say culling will continue to be monitored, but I wish they'd do more testing rather than using us as the testers first. (I mean it feels that way)
Sorry for the rant...
Anything is possible. I just hate that there isn't a way for me to narrow down the cause and know for sure. If she's a culled played sim, she would be my first (wish I could remember what she looked like... firsts are important! rofl).
I understand the frustration. I had a lot of issues with my Sims 3 game and in searching for ways to make it run halfway decent I was brushed off a lot. I heard the "doesn't happen to me" enough times to make my head ache... and actually still do in regard to that installment. lol I've been guilty of saying it myself as well.
I think it all boils down to how credible you think the simmer is. I've seen a lot of threads complaining about their game malfunctioning only to find out it was bad cc or they just needed to clear their cache. When you're a player who has already done those things, and you know that it's not bad cc or a conflicting mod, or caches, things do become really frustrating. On the other hand, when you're a player who hasn't seen any of those malfunctions in your own game, it's also frustrating because you have no idea what to do to help the person. Outside of suggesting the normal array of options that they've probably already tried. >.< Frustration abounds all around lol. >.<
I wish they'd do more testing too. I do admit to feeling a bit like a guinea pig and that is why I'll be snagging MC CMD later... I'm tired of play testing and I just want to play. It's hard to do that when your sims have amnesia, though. Thank goodness for passionate modders and that are compassionate enough to share their creations with us!
P.S. Sometimes it's good to rant, no apologies needed!
Thanks for hearing me out. Your post made me smile at the end. I downloaded "St Claire" (player made world) last night and this morning did some sims 3 playing. I think I just needed a sims 4 break because it's started to annoy me, even just reading other players issues. Not because I'm annoyed by the players, but because I'm annoyed by the issues they face.
Sometimes it feels like if they were really just reading this forum (or playing the game) then they'd see the issues and the needs. Are they really aware or just saying they are? At times it's very hard to tell because they do things like this that make me think they are so disconnected from the community. Sad thing is I held off on playing the game after the update (on my actual save) because I wanted to see what issues would arise so I could avoid them. I thought I was in the clear, but it turns out I wasn't and by the time I realized it was too late.
It's almost Christmas now though, so I'm sure most or all of them are spending their time off with their family and friends. Honestly they deserve the holiday break same as anyone else. Unfortunately that means this issue probably won't even get a verbal address until January.
Yup, gotta love the modding community. I'd be lost without my mods now. I haven't gone too overboard, but since I'm using mods now anyway, I've gotten a few "fun" ones. mc cmd center ofc, quick meals cost money, no intro, no enchanting/flirty introductions (autonomous), no good surroundings, and a mod to fix sims sitting before they put away items. xD Oohh and one from Plasticbox I downloaded this morning that makes it so the clay comes with a new skill so you can "craft" cups and plates. I thought that was cute.
I can't believe we are actually talking about an expansion pack that is geared to groups -- where the members of the group cannot remember each other!
*boggled mind*
This! It doesn't make any sense at all! If anything, those club relationships should be developing even better on their own and not being completely forgotten when not playing them.
This kind of reminded me... the townie limit of sims they can know is 10 (I was thinking this was going to be an issue, but I didn't think much on it past that) Now I understand why (I think) club members are vanishing off the relationship panel. It's not just because of the sim amount your sim has, but it's also because they can only know 10 people, so that's just "doubling" the culling. Townies are constantly talking to each other.
They couldn't have honestly expected us to add all our club members as "played" households... At least I hope not. I like organization. I personally like being friends with townies, but I'm fine with them living their own lives and doing npc careers. I mean if you want to be friends with the mailman you can only be friends with him as the mailman while he's not played.
So there is a limit on how many friends you can have now?
Ridiculous
Right, that's what we're talking about. Someone posted it already, but there are rules to the relationship culling, but from my personal experience they're not always working. Your sim can know 20 people in your relationship panel before sims start getting culled. If you play rotationally and with a lot of sim family members, that culling is going to hit you very often. Townie sims (non-played) can know a max of 10 (apparently) before their relationships are culled. So, if you know that townie sim when it's culling time it should (in theory) cull the... actually, just realized something. They're supposed to be keeping "played" friends (I think, right?)... but they can only have 10 friends.. so what if 10+ of your sims know that townie, now I'm getting confused lol.
Edit: Apparently it doesn't specify how many "played" friends a npc can have, it just says how many non-played friends a npc sim can have. That leaves me scratching my head a bit.
@ModerateOsprey Okay thanks, I was wondering and that does clear it up for me more. Yeah, I don't think that would affect my play style. I'm sorry it's bothering others though. Personally I don't want a glut of faces of sims I barely know.. or don't want my sims to know popping up in that relationship panel because it seems too full as it is too me already.
I wish we had more tools to like put a check next to a sim we want to remain on our relationships panel.
This would be glorious! I'd like to be able to manually delete sims from my relationship panel. Especially NPCs that have aged and are now ghosts.
@Ceres_Meiriona I think this should be possible with testingcheats true enabled. (I mean I think they should make that a reality, not that it exists already). That said you can do this with mc cmd center.
I couldn't agree more! That would be a great way to implement the feature.
I wanted to avoid mods, but I think at this point mc cmd is going to become a staple for me. (It has always been tempting for me anyway, since it offers so many wonderful features and options).
If you ever get one mod for this game, honestly that's the one to get (imo) Every update just offers more and more customization and nothing in it is forced upon the player. You want more story progression? It will give it to you. You want less? It'll help. Also it fixes all kinds of issues. Honestly don't know how a rotational or family/generational player can play without it. I'd be terrified for my sims.
I know you're testing the games limits though, still can't wait to see your results.
I finally hit culling, (though it wasn't where I expected it to be) so I'm done testing. In all truthfulness, I'm kind of weary of testing game limitations... it's time to get back to my real legacy family and enjoy myself.
Which unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it lol) means I'll need mc cmd. Excited to have access to the story progression and woohoo features that come with that mod, not gonna lie! lol I've wanted it for a long while!
I'm sorry that you'll need it, but the modder who created it is really great at keeping it up to date. Seems like a really nice person in general. I think you'll enjoy its use.
And I didn't realize you finished testing. How much greater was the culling limit compared to what it was before (on the family tree) ?
Deaderpool reminds me of Twallen from the old NRaas Industries site -- he was awesome at updating his suite of mods whenever there was an update, and continually adding functionality as well. He had so many mods that eventually he got burned out -- if Deaderpool just limits himself to MC Command Center then hopefully burnout won't be a problem for him either. (Thought about getting into tuning mods but life's just too dang crazy right now.)
I feel the same way, though to be honest I have an easier time navigating through Deaderpool's mod, but that might be because I've used it since its release and am able to learn what's there and then learn every new addition as it comes lol. There are so many things that come along with Nraas I get lost and have to look information up. xD I hope Deaderpool won't get burnt out either, hopefully he just enjoys his modding experience and continues to in the future.
I hope life calms down for you in the future (regardless of modding).
Twallan and Deaderpool are lifesavers for The Sims 4. I can't play Sims 3 without almost all of the NRaas modules. Even with them I barely can, but that's a different story.
I'm going to pour a pint for them. Theoretically. I mean I'll still drink them myself cause I'm such a big drunkie on Thirsty Tuesdays! But hey, it's the thought that counts.
A quick note because I saw there was some confusion : NPC Sims means in that context Sims that are not actively played at the moment, and there are different thresholds for played NPC Sims and non-played NPC Sims.
The numbers are not the maximum of friends allowed, you can have as many as you want, but above that threshold the acquaintances may be culled for example. But you can have 20+ familiy members, a dozen of good friends, a bunch of enemies and those won't be culled.
You'll probably notice this culling more if you rotate often (thus don't have the time to build the relation high), tend to have a lot of acquaintances/friends, or have a long rotation (because of the relationship decay).
I may be among the minority here but I actually like some aspects of this culling : it removes all those townies ghosts, all those townies that entered the conversation at one point but that I have no plan to befriend (like all the barmen and masseur), and it means that instead of having 30+ barely friends when I rotate back to a family, I have a dozen of stronger relations.
Having said that the long rotation + relationship decay + relationship culling combo makes it really hard to build, and keep, relationships at the moment.
Thanks for going into more detail @Neia. Like was said, I wish they'd mentioned this in the patch notes so we'd know what to expect. Though I don't want to use mods, I'm way past that option at this point and would have waited for a mod before going into a save (I thought I waited long enough, but I guess not.) I still don't like the way this new relationship system is working, but I'm glad I have mods to prevent this from happening again in the future.
I can't believe we are actually talking about an expansion pack that is geared to groups -- where the members of the group cannot remember each other!
*boggled mind*
This! It doesn't make any sense at all! If anything, those club relationships should be developing even better on their own and not being completely forgotten when not playing them.
This kind of reminded me... the townie limit of sims they can know is 10 (I was thinking this was going to be an issue, but I didn't think much on it past that) Now I understand why (I think) club members are vanishing off the relationship panel. It's not just because of the sim amount your sim has, but it's also because they can only know 10 people, so that's just "doubling" the culling. Townies are constantly talking to each other.
They couldn't have honestly expected us to add all our club members as "played" households... At least I hope not. I like organization. I personally like being friends with townies, but I'm fine with them living their own lives and doing npc careers. I mean if you want to be friends with the mailman you can only be friends with him as the mailman while he's not played.
So there is a limit on how many friends you can have now?
Ridiculous
Right, that's what we're talking about. Someone posted it already, but there are rules to the relationship culling, but from my personal experience they're not always working. Your sim can know 20 people in your relationship panel before sims start getting culled. If you play rotationally and with a lot of sim family members, that culling is going to hit you very often. Townie sims (non-played) can know a max of 10 (apparently) before their relationships are culled. So, if you know that townie sim when it's culling time it should (in theory) cull the... actually, just realized something. They're supposed to be keeping "played" friends (I think, right?)... but they can only have 10 friends.. so what if 10+ of your sims know that townie, now I'm getting confused lol.
Edit: Apparently it doesn't specify how many "played" friends a npc can have, it just says how many non-played friends a npc sim can have. That leaves me scratching my head a bit.
@ModerateOsprey Okay thanks, I was wondering and that does clear it up for me more. Yeah, I don't think that would affect my play style. I'm sorry it's bothering others though. Personally I don't want a glut of faces of sims I barely know.. or don't want my sims to know popping up in that relationship panel because it seems too full as it is too me already.
I wish we had more tools to like put a check next to a sim we want to remain on our relationships panel.
This would be glorious! I'd like to be able to manually delete sims from my relationship panel. Especially NPCs that have aged and are now ghosts.
@Ceres_Meiriona I think this should be possible with testingcheats true enabled. (I mean I think they should make that a reality, not that it exists already). That said you can do this with mc cmd center.
I couldn't agree more! That would be a great way to implement the feature.
I wanted to avoid mods, but I think at this point mc cmd is going to become a staple for me. (It has always been tempting for me anyway, since it offers so many wonderful features and options).
If you ever get one mod for this game, honestly that's the one to get (imo) Every update just offers more and more customization and nothing in it is forced upon the player. You want more story progression? It will give it to you. You want less? It'll help. Also it fixes all kinds of issues. Honestly don't know how a rotational or family/generational player can play without it. I'd be terrified for my sims.
I know you're testing the games limits though, still can't wait to see your results.
I finally hit culling, (though it wasn't where I expected it to be) so I'm done testing. In all truthfulness, I'm kind of weary of testing game limitations... it's time to get back to my real legacy family and enjoy myself.
Which unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it lol) means I'll need mc cmd. Excited to have access to the story progression and woohoo features that come with that mod, not gonna lie! lol I've wanted it for a long while!
I'm sorry that you'll need it, but the modder who created it is really great at keeping it up to date. Seems like a really nice person in general. I think you'll enjoy its use.
And I didn't realize you finished testing. How much greater was the culling limit compared to what it was before (on the family tree) ?
Deaderpool reminds me of Twallen from the old NRaas Industries site -- he was awesome at updating his suite of mods whenever there was an update, and continually adding functionality as well. He had so many mods that eventually he got burned out -- if Deaderpool just limits himself to MC Command Center then hopefully burnout won't be a problem for him either. (Thought about getting into tuning mods but life's just too dang crazy right now.)
I feel the same way, though to be honest I have an easier time navigating through Deaderpool's mod, but that might be because I've used it since its release and am able to learn what's there and then learn every new addition as it comes lol. There are so many things that come along with Nraas I get lost and have to look information up. xD I hope Deaderpool won't get burnt out either, hopefully he just enjoys his modding experience and continues to in the future.
I hope life calms down for you in the future (regardless of modding).
Twallan and Deaderpool are lifesavers for The Sims 4. I can't play Sims 3 without almost all of the NRaas modules. Even with them I barely can, but that's a different story.
I'm going to pour a pint for them. Theoretically. I mean I'll still drink them myself cause I'm such a big drunkie on Thirsty Tuesdays! But hey, it's the thought that counts.
A quick note because I saw there was some confusion : NPC Sims means in that context Sims that are not actively played at the moment, and there are different thresholds for played NPC Sims and non-played NPC Sims.
The numbers are not the maximum of friends allowed, you can have as many as you want, but above that threshold the acquaintances may be culled for example. But you can have 20+ familiy members, a dozen of good friends, a bunch of enemies and those won't be culled.
You'll probably notice this culling more if you rotate often (thus don't have the time to build the relation high), tend to have a lot of acquaintances/friends, or have a long rotation (because of the relationship decay).
I may be among the minority here but I actually like some aspects of this culling : it removes all those townies ghosts, all those townies that entered the conversation at one point but that I have no plan to befriend (like all the barmen and masseur), and it means that instead of having 30+ barely friends when I rotate back to a family, I have a dozen of stronger relations.
Having said that the long rotation + relationship decay + relationship culling combo makes it really hard to build, and keep, relationships at the moment.
Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Yeah, I am one of those that rotates often, sometimes several times a game hour (or even more) as well as spans of a few days. In addition some of my sims don't tend to have long social sessions, have a drink, game of chess and chat during - then go home type thing and so I let the relationship build slowly over time.
The culling just blew my game up. I relied very heavily on the relationship panel.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for a player to expect to be able to track and log all relationships (including familial ones) permanently. Yes, doing that would (and does) clutter up the relationship panel, but that is the fault the relationship panel UI that provides exactly zero sorting options, not the player expectations.
Without this kind of tracking then a sim has no history and only lives in the present.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
So... I guess it's time to ask how to install script mods.
I don't know if I'm brave enough to try it again. I did when the game was still fairly new, and it was a disaster. I forget what went wrong, now, but I swore I'd never use script mods again. *sigh*
Still, if anyone wants to give a nice, gentle tutorial, that would be great. Meanwhile I'll try to hunt up a bowl of courage. *gulp*
So... I guess it's time to ask how to install script mods.
I don't know if I'm brave enough to try it again. I did when the game was still fairly new, and it was a disaster. I forget what went wrong, now, but I swore I'd never use script mods again. *sigh*
Still, if anyone wants to give a nice, gentle tutorial, that would be great. Meanwhile I'll try to hunt up a bowl of courage. *gulp*
Depends on the instructions whether to unzip the script mods or not. MC Command Center is easier than it used to be. MTS site is nice because of how organized the downloads are. Using this link, you can follow the instructions how to make the mod work in your game: http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=551680 You have to just make sure the resource file in the mod folder is correct, so that you can check through a program like Notepad. It is probably worth downloading this file version of the mod, just so you have the whole mod together: McCmdCenter_AllModules_2_3_0.zip You also need to make sure once you boot up the game, under options to check to have script mods run in your game.
So... I guess it's time to ask how to install script mods.
I don't know if I'm brave enough to try it again. I did when the game was still fairly new, and it was a disaster. I forget what went wrong, now, but I swore I'd never use script mods again. *sigh*
Still, if anyone wants to give a nice, gentle tutorial, that would be great. Meanwhile I'll try to hunt up a bowl of courage. *gulp*
If you want to just fix the culling and for some reason you don't want MCCommand Center, then there is a simple mod that will disable just the culling here:
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
This seems to be a reoccurring issue with both EA and The Sims 4: A lack of choices.
"You Rule". Yeaaah... Except we don't. If the game decides to randomly completely destroy every form of story progression/writing the player has created, you've got a bad mechanic. As someone mentioned, a good solution would be to give players the option to enable or disable culling entirely, or set a time frame or certain flags before culling is allowed like "Has known X for X amount of time", "Has been friends with X for X amount of time". I personally would say that unless it really kills performance, leave culling out entirely or only do it when absolutely necessary.
Technical point of view, and stay with me, I kept it simple:
From a technical perspective, if the game engine is capable of doing so (I assume so, otherwise shame on you Maxis), the best trick would be to load data in clusters and/or keep it in memory once loaded. We know keeping data in memory until flushed is possible, seeing as objects like thumbnails and color swatches in CAS and build mode load once and don't have to be recalled until re-entry of said mode after exiting.
Why not apply the same on relationships? Just load it once and don't flush until you leave the lot or select a different family to play with. I'd assume it's possible since all it seems to be doing is loading objects like thumbnails and relationship bars, as well as of course changing the relationship setting for the culled victim. Which would be "Stranger" in this case.
Memory usage will go up and might require 64 bit, which could be a disaster for people with lower end hardware. But in all honesty, *Implies mother is a llama* you guys. If you don't have money to buy a decent PC, you certainly don't have money to buy The Sims 4 and all of its expansions. I'm sorry, but one of the factors why games like The Sims have always been cut is because of people with weak systems who don't have money or don't want to upgrade. But seriously, if you want to game, you need to be willing to spend some cash. You can stay as low as 600 Euros and build a PC good enough to play The Sims 4 on Medium-High, as well as be future proof AND play other games too. It's not that difficult to do either. All it takes is a little bit of time and effort. You'll learn from it. You don't need a GTX 980 or i7 if all you play is The Sims and similar games. Hell, anything above the recommended requirements will suit your needs and won't require you having to upgrade if requirements ever change for Sims 4.
Aside of my little rant, the info mentioned could be a solution. A game like The Sims simply can't be "for people with ancient hardware", it's way too large scale, and Maxis is too afraid to let go of this unrealistic idiocy, although I do very much appreciate the 64 bit update, which is a very good sign for the future, because memory usage will be theoretically unlimited now.
A very bad case of poor memory management and bad programming in general is The Sims 3. A prime disast- I mean example. No error or garbage collection for failing scripts, awful navigation mesh for NPCs, poor data streaming, and worst of all: 32 bit limitations. Even with the Large Address Aware mod/patch, it was still a disaster. The Sims 4 has the ability to do all this correctly. USE IT MAXIS. Don't let people with weak systems break the game.
Gurus please take note; Relay this to your superiors and the programmers. Casual gamers and techtards take note too. If you want it, you can do it. All it takes is some money, a little basic knowledge and maybe someone friendly enough to help. There's plenty of people on these forums, for one.
TL;DR: Scroll up and read. This is well thought out post for the most part. Not just a rant.
Addendum: One of the easiest things to note when it comes to bad resource allocation in The Sims 3 is how every time you switch tabs in CAS or Buy/Build, it has to reload EVERY object and all of its prefabs and properties. The Sims 4 keeps everything in RAM, or some other form of flash memory until the mode is exited.
I really enjoy your perspective on these posts, I don't get the technical aspects tbh. It's just confusing to me that a modern game like this would have these issues, when as @Conclue said, I can load up TS2 without problems - to be fair even TS2 had problems at the time I think, but still, by now, shouldn't lessons have been learned about cleaning up your programming for a complex game like the Sims? Especially after TS3?
I really don't get it. I've learned to lower my expectations.
Comments
To me personally with EA hiding the relationship culling from the patch is like someone offering me a honey mixed with poison. No exaggeration. I exactly feel that way. I feel very deceived.
If I knew that, I would not have updated the game until there was a mod for this relationship culling. I have made a backup to my game before updating the patch but going back to that backup will mean losing many hours of progress.
Get Together has made the game so much better but with this relationship culling it feels that Sims are not going to get together anymore. they will keep forgetting each other completely.
What EA added to the game and to our sims is nothing but Alzheimer disease and dementia. This is very sad.
I am still stunned and can't find any excuse for this mechanism specially in preparation of an expansion pack that aims to get the sims together and become friends and more!! How can that be justified?
When I was very happy in the last few weeks about how the game was shaping up something like this comes up telling me that I should not be happy. I don't want it to sound too dramatic but It feels to me like there is someone in EA who deliberately is trying to destroy this game completely and make us players abandon it.
Don't buy a prebuilt PC. Buy parts and THEN let a store build it for you, you're better off that way. At least here in the Netherlands.
Computers aren't scary. We invented it, after all. Spiders however are a different story. 🐸🐸🐸🐸 those things.
It probably is because Maxis doesn't know what to do with it. I hope to god it isn't hard coded. I think nothing in The Sims 4 is hard coded other than the way the worlds work. Here's hoping they read our threads, huh?
I remember people claiming that sims marked "played" were safe from culling, meanwhile there were those who stood by the fact that their "played" sims were in fact being culled. I get the impression her being culled from the game had nothing to do with December and everything to do with the actual sim culling system (deleting sims from existence).
Things like this aren't new to me though. I remember telling people that sims were standing around doing nothing in an infinite animation loop with no time passing. Some didn't believe me, swore it was mods, even when I had video evidence (base game and vanilla). Then later many more people reported the same issue and it was clear it was an actual glitch.
I do like the Sims 4, but I can't for the life of me understand how some people refuse to see issues it has just because they themselves don't currently have them. Like someone mentioned, once they get the issues, then they understand the frustration.
I think this game will always have issues, hopefully not so big that it turns more simmers away (I myself have experienced game breaking bugs in this version), but this issue in particular I think really needs to be fixed because it will affect everyone. The only difference is if the player cares.
I mean...yeah idk. I still to this day feel the people in charge of the Maxis team(s) do not play the game. I don't get how no one catches this or how they think it's working or okay.
I appreciate you sharing your results, but my take away makes me disappointed. At the very least I'm glad they say culling will continue to be monitored, but I wish they'd do more testing rather than using us as the testers first. (I mean it feels that way)
Sorry for the rant...
*There's nothing wrong with loving the Sims 4, there's also nothing wrong with seeking improvements.
A list of Mods I use.|My Sims 4 Mod and CC "Master" post. Helpful Links included.
I don't consider this an "us" and "them" situation, unless you consider that there are some people who have the game and some don't. I WANTED to like TS4 so much and have been waiting for over a year for it to be a game that would work for my play style. Instead, it's getting further away. Still, I masochistically keep checking for improvements -- something, ANYTHING, that would make me want to buy it. Hope springs eternal, I guess.
This latest culling feature/bug makes no sense. It's almost like they want to drive gamers away.
One word: Majority of people are those with low end hardware.
Actually that's like 9 words. But as EA does business; Less for More is More.
Which doesn't make sense. But it does, because marketing.
Updated with Werewolf Diaries (1)
It's just this constant non-information and "how long do we wait this time?" that is teeth-grindy.
A good reason why the devs need to be allowed to open up and show us some actual progress or problems. Why is EA so afraid of showing things that are wrong or broken? Give us insight. We, as a community can help and motivate the developers make the game a greater game! It's so frustrating that the suits try to make it seem like EA is a perfect like the families in infomercials or stock photos. Just look at Rachel Franklin. It's like she purposely makes it seem like all she knows is business, not Sims. Yes, The Sims is part of their business, but if you're leading a team of people working on said business, you need to know about it too, not just the commercial stuff.
Each time they make my jaw drop with the dismal communication. I think to myself that they cannot possibly fail further on the lack of communication. And then they do it again. This is unacceptable. I was finally hopeful that things could change for the better. GT seemed like it might be the step in a more positive experience for players who want OPTIONS. And then the rug is yanked out from under me again. It's really disappointing, and disheartening. Players shouldn't be treated like this.
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Yes! It's so frustrating when married couples - (couples that in my mind are very loyal to each other) have little sneaky romances on the side when that's not what I wanted at all. I'd be more accepting if it was sims with the unloyal or whatever trait but its a free for all.
What the 🐸🐸🐸🐸? Is this new? What's the limit of how many sims you can know?
I'm not going to keep playing this game if they keep up with these pointless limitations. Sims 2 had a 32,000 sim population and I don't recall "relationships" getting culled because they knew too many.
@SimGuruDrake
@SimGuruDaniel
This is unacceptable.
How was this on purpose? It's beyond my understanding!
All my creations are CC free.
Anything is possible. I just hate that there isn't a way for me to narrow down the cause and know for sure. If she's a culled played sim, she would be my first (wish I could remember what she looked like... firsts are important! rofl).
I understand the frustration. I had a lot of issues with my Sims 3 game and in searching for ways to make it run halfway decent I was brushed off a lot. I heard the "doesn't happen to me" enough times to make my head ache... and actually still do in regard to that installment. lol I've been guilty of saying it myself as well.
I think it all boils down to how credible you think the simmer is. I've seen a lot of threads complaining about their game malfunctioning only to find out it was bad cc or they just needed to clear their cache. When you're a player who has already done those things, and you know that it's not bad cc or a conflicting mod, or caches, things do become really frustrating.
I wish they'd do more testing too. I do admit to feeling a bit like a guinea pig and that is why I'll be snagging MC CMD later... I'm tired of play testing and I just want to play. It's hard to do that when your sims have amnesia, though. Thank goodness for passionate modders and that are compassionate enough to share their creations with us!
P.S. Sometimes it's good to rant, no apologies needed!
With the relationship culling however I don't understand what the intent of it was. I mean what does it matter if a Sims has a good relationship or not unless it was to decrease the autonomous woohoo happening in the game? Interesting theory you have thinking it might be tied to family trees. It would be nice if the genealogy culling got stopped, although I still think it is a temporary fix. It would be much better if there was a story progression option like what mods have provided, so we can set our own limits for how many Sims are generated in specific areas of the game and which relationships to maintain or not.
Upon watching some videos of No Man's Sky, it seems like their mathematical system for generating assets is much more stable. Like basically an area loads based on a formula, then when you leave it for another area, the first area you visited isn't currently running, but if you visit it again the memory of that area is retained in the formula. Sean Murray explained it better, but I wish that it could be applied to the Sims games so Sims could have such a vast area to live in and explore.
http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/07/22/how-no-mans-sky-infinite-universe-actually-works-ign-first
I think what is frustrating is Simmers have been telling Gurus for months of different issues like culling and incest and reactions not happening in their game and only now they are starting to listen to that feedback. It just makes the ignored feedback from the Sims 3 and SimCity 2013 feel like a déjà vu moment for the Sims 4. Like do Maxis even want to fix their games anymore?
The numbers are not the maximum of friends allowed, you can have as many as you want, but above that threshold the acquaintances may be culled for example. But you can have 20+ familiy members, a dozen of good friends, a bunch of enemies and those won't be culled.
You'll probably notice this culling more if you rotate often (thus don't have the time to build the relation high), tend to have a lot of acquaintances/friends, or have a long rotation (because of the relationship decay).
I may be among the minority here but I actually like some aspects of this culling : it removes all those townies ghosts, all those townies that entered the conversation at one point but that I have no plan to befriend (like all the barmen and masseur), and it means that instead of having 30+ barely friends when I rotate back to a family, I have a dozen of stronger relations.
Having said that the long rotation + relationship decay + relationship culling combo makes it really hard to build, and keep, relationships at the moment.
Thanks for hearing me out.
Sometimes it feels like if they were really just reading this forum (or playing the game) then they'd see the issues and the needs. Are they really aware or just saying they are? At times it's very hard to tell because they do things like this that make me think they are so disconnected from the community. Sad thing is I held off on playing the game after the update (on my actual save) because I wanted to see what issues would arise so I could avoid them. I thought I was in the clear, but it turns out I wasn't and by the time I realized it was too late.
It's almost Christmas now though, so I'm sure most or all of them are spending their time off with their family and friends. Honestly they deserve the holiday break same as anyone else. Unfortunately that means this issue probably won't even get a verbal address until January.
Yup, gotta love the modding community. I'd be lost without my mods now. I haven't gone too overboard, but since I'm using mods now anyway, I've gotten a few "fun" ones. mc cmd center ofc, quick meals cost money, no intro, no enchanting/flirty introductions (autonomous), no good surroundings, and a mod to fix sims sitting before they put away items. xD Oohh and one from Plasticbox I downloaded this morning that makes it so the clay comes with a new skill so you can "craft" cups and plates. I thought that was cute.
*There's nothing wrong with loving the Sims 4, there's also nothing wrong with seeking improvements.
A list of Mods I use.|My Sims 4 Mod and CC "Master" post. Helpful Links included.
Twallan and Deaderpool are lifesavers for The Sims 4. I can't play Sims 3 without almost all of the NRaas modules. Even with them I barely can, but that's a different story.
I'm going to pour a pint for them. Theoretically. I mean I'll still drink them myself cause I'm such a big drunkie on Thirsty Tuesdays! But hey, it's the thought that counts.
Thanks for going into more detail @Neia. Like was said, I wish they'd mentioned this in the patch notes so we'd know what to expect. Though I don't want to use mods, I'm way past that option at this point and would have waited for a mod before going into a save (I thought I waited long enough, but I guess not.) I still don't like the way this new relationship system is working, but I'm glad I have mods to prevent this from happening again in the future.
If you don't mind, take a drink for me too. lol
*There's nothing wrong with loving the Sims 4, there's also nothing wrong with seeking improvements.
A list of Mods I use.|My Sims 4 Mod and CC "Master" post. Helpful Links included.
Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Yeah, I am one of those that rotates often, sometimes several times a game hour (or even more) as well as spans of a few days. In addition some of my sims don't tend to have long social sessions, have a drink, game of chess and chat during - then go home type thing and so I let the relationship build slowly over time.
The culling just blew my game up. I relied very heavily on the relationship panel.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for a player to expect to be able to track and log all relationships (including familial ones) permanently. Yes, doing that would (and does) clutter up the relationship panel, but that is the fault the relationship panel UI that provides exactly zero sorting options, not the player expectations.
Without this kind of tracking then a sim has no history and only lives in the present.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
I don't know if I'm brave enough to try it again. I did when the game was still fairly new, and it was a disaster. I forget what went wrong, now, but I swore I'd never use script mods again. *sigh*
Still, if anyone wants to give a nice, gentle tutorial, that would be great. Meanwhile I'll try to hunt up a bowl of courage. *gulp*
Here is a general tutorial on how to install CC and mods: http://simsvip.com/2014/08/22/how-to-install-custom-content-in-the-sims-4/
If you want to just fix the culling and for some reason you don't want MCCommand Center, then there is a simple mod that will disable just the culling here:
http://modthesims.info/d/568880
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
I really don't get it. I've learned to lower my expectations.