Difference in quality, I would say, depends more on the person who's reading. What some may see as a masterpiece, others may see as terrible.
That being said, I think that yes, there's always room for improvement (on the writer's end, anyway). After all, no matter how interesting the concept of a story is, no one will want to read it if it's poorly-written (spelling errors, atrocious grammar, that sort of thing).
There's also the trope known as "Early Installment Weirdness", in the beginning of some stories. (Personally, I don't really worry about this one. After all, the story's just beginning, and trying to find its footing) In time, as the story goes on, certain traits are better established.
But basically, quality writing can depend on the reader, but writers can always improve.
(...Here's hoping I didn't contradict myself at any point in this post. I tend to do that without thinking)
Sometimes, I completely disregard spelling, punctuation, and other standards, if I really like the story, voice, or other aspects of the writing.
Also, I have a certain love affair with unpolished works--with the writing of folks who are just starting for the first time, seeing what they want to say, and feeling that sudden deep joy of being able to express themselves and these stories that are waiting to come out!
I teach writing (English composition), so I've developed a love of seeing what writers are saying even when it's not expressed in the most polished way--sometimes, if there's earnestness there, I'll love that even more than the polished, if the polished lacks earnestness and enthusiasm.
But here's something cool: I just realized that all of those whom I consider to be masters don't settle! Once they reach a point where they pull off what they're trying to do, they push themselves further, into new areas, so then, they wonder again, "Will I be able to pull it off?"
So there's mastery--and masters don't settle. They continue to reach and grow and develop into areas they haven't yet mastered, because that's being alive!
@CathyTea: That's the sort of quote I'd want to frame.
Also, my question that isn't really a question: Discuss your thoughts/philosophies on writing unlikable characters. Especially unlikable/highly flawed protagonists.
(It's just something I've been thinking about for myself lately)
Yes, I have been thinking about it lately!
I have wondered why I can like a work of fiction with protagonists that are meant to be unlikable, and whine about another with the same kind of protagonist because I really don't have any interest in the thought of them succeeding. And with Eight Cicadas, I need it to fall into the former category. So far, the response is good, but I gotta stay on top of keeping it that way.
Anyways, a few general notes I took while thinking, on why an unlikable protagonist can work. They might still be appealing because of:
- Redemption/character growth. A protagonist can start out as bad. Even as horrifically evil, but a redemption for them in the end makes their journey even more worth it. You're invested in them because they can change and are journeying towards change. Kind of the softest choice here. The reverse of a protagonist slowly slipping into something horrible works too. You have a chance to see them as a human, and while you might not root for their downfall, it is a change worth sticking around for.
- Boosting them up with some great adventures. The most challenging character to "justify" to myself was actually Frank Underwood from the US adaptation of House of Cards. He's a scheming, devious politician, and he isn't a tragic character of any sorts (at least not to me). But when I watch the show, I still want him to succeed in his plans. And I think it's because they give Frank plots that are fun to watch, even with a despicable sociopath like him at the helm.
- The sympathetic supporting details. Probably what I go for the most. Hints of trauma and humanity shining out of a character who does bad things. It can also intersect with a decent character who does bad deeds (also a favorite of mine; most of the characters in Eight Cicadas break the law on multiple occasions, but plenty of them are likable people). It's the actions that are bad, not the character. This can tie into the first two: you might want to see them overcome their demons and redeem themselves, or their humanity makes their adventures more fun and fulfilling to follow.
- Giving them an antagonist who's worth it. Whether it's a "Hero Antagonist" who you might root for deep down, or a villain who manages to be even worse, an unlikable protagonist can have fun adventures being against an antagonist.
...
[Warning: me being negative and ranty in the spoiler]
So how can someone fail at it? I don't like to rag on other people's stories, but I did read one recently that I felt failed at points like that to make their abusive protagonist worth reading about. Without going into specifics, their protagonist held a lot of power, and used it against a vulnerable human. "Relations" under dubious consent, gaslighting, wrangling him into forced immortality (I use forced immortality too...spoiler, but the only character who has any control of it and doles it out is also a major villain and antagonist), convincing him that the forces of destiny and fate were reasons enough to lead him into a 24/7 (or pretty close to it) 🐸🐸🐸🐸 relationship, and without a single moment of "huh, that was a bad thing to do" from the guy. No sympathetic backstory, and (in my opinion) no adventures that were still fun with him in them. There was no irony to the story, as the author seemed to want us to like him anyways.
I do think there needs to be a bit of awareness in the story and by the author that if a protagonist does an awful thing or many of them, it's not a sympathetic thing just because it's a protagonist doing it. I think the best unlikable protagonists have that sort of awareness surrounding their story.
It's the least I can try. Sometimes I'm surprised when people say "I love Annette/I really feel for Shark" because they do some selfish or even heinous things. Annette wanted to cause a fatal gas leak in a building just to get paid for it, wants her former boss jailed over a petty feud, likes to irritate a violent police officer who wants her destroyed, steals property on the regular...but people act accordingly to her. She doesn't have many friends, and people cringe and object to things she says and does. Shark assaulted a minor, used his ex's adult son for some twisted sense of gratification, and brought the entire family down with his prolonged mourning period, and people reacted to him as well. He died without a job, and with everyone thinking of him as an obsessed, destructive weirdo. It's a sort of in-story awareness towards a character's actions, and I think that's what people see in Annette and Shark. And what might be lacking for other characters who are bad but don't seem to get all the gushing comments about them (Bill, Sinbad, etc. The only person who seems to reasonably react to either of them being jerks is Annette, who will chew anyone out. Everyone else takes Bill's laziness and infidelity with a shrug, and try to apologize for Sinbad's hot temper, numerous instances of assault, cheating on his fiancee, and so on).
The future of the story is going be fun and difficult for me. Can I redeem destructive brats? Chronic attention seekers? Drug dealers? Immortals who have lost their moral code to the ravishes of time?
Sometimes, I completely disregard spelling, punctuation, and other standards, if I really like the story, voice, or other aspects of the writing.
Also, I have a certain love affair with unpolished works--with the writing of folks who are just starting for the first time, seeing what they want to say, and feeling that sudden deep joy of being able to express themselves and these stories that are waiting to come out!
@CathyTea: I agree with that. Especially because when you're reading stories online, there are a lot of very young writers, or ESL speakers (or both). I think it's important to encourage them!
I'm off to cello practice, but @InfraGreen on my way there, I just want to say--irony.
I read your spoiler bit, and I feel you're on to something amazing that I'll be thinking about during cello and lunch, which is that irony provides exactly what's needed with these unlikable characters.
I'm thinking about Poe, and the only thing that makes "The Cask of the Amontadillo" (sp?) palatable to me (and actually, rather delicious) is the irony!
What makes this work? Let's think about! and share...
I've been thinking on unlikeable characters as well. Some of these questions need to marinate for a day or two...so I'm sure I'll have more thoughts as well.
There's a recent fantasy book called Empress...I think. And I ended that book wondering if the character was justified in her actions, if she thought she was telling the truth, if she was just manipulative, or what. I don't usually end books wondering that about the protagonist. Even when fantasy presents antiheroes they either uausally make you understand them. One of my early high school aged reading experiences was of getting into the mind of the main villain. That was when I realized that most people don't think they're evil. Which was a guiding tenet of mine for a while.
Like @CathyTea, I wrote my evil characters in my legacy in a more sympathtic light. Based off that first principal of mine. (I ended up with a rash of sims with the "evil" trait and had to figure out what to do with it.) I think I got the closest to a true unlikeable character in Bane...but didn't quite go there. He was still far too likeable, especially in his later years when his "family oriented" trait was in the forefront. He was quite a decent father, and I always assumed the majority of his evilness was around strangers, which we never saw. He had a funny evil voice as well in my head that was so easy to write. But looking back, I kind of wish I'd pressed more and exposed more of his personality. I actually wish that in most of my legacy so I'm really looking forward to writing some new stories.
I do enjoy reading about unlikeable characters as long as they're not left on a two-dimensional cartoon like nature. Like @RipuAncestor showed, cartoons don't need to be two dimensional. In my mind that is just lazy writing. Something being evil for evils sake just annoys me if it doesn't seem to match how human nature and human psyches work.
That being said, while I enjoy reading about them, I don't always enjoy watching them. I tried getting into madmen since at the time I worked in an ad agency which was fitting, and I could tell that while I disliked the characters that they were going to grow on me and I would learn to appreciate them, I decided not to spend the time. Same with House. I'm not sure why a book is more palatable than a show....perhaps books show you the psyche faster so I can get behind it? Perhaps because the nasty characters I read in books come in fantasy settings and sim worlds where I'm less forced to think about them existing in real life. As @medleymisty said, the books are a safe place to explore the dark side of ourselves. When they're set in the real world, perhaps it's too close to home for me.
Also yay for Pratchett's Death! I would love to run into him anyday...I'd bring him a kitten and a bowl of curry!
Warning, I just typed this in an iToy, so I may need to edit it for autocorrect clarity.
Check out Raerei's Fortress for Builds, Short Stories, and maybe some longer stuff.
Ooo... so many good posts. I'm behind in reading and everyone always writes such good stuff while I'm gone. I'll try and go in order.
@MedleyMisty I am very proud of my heritage too. I have a unique and eclectic background and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's what has made me who I am today. I'd appreciate it if you checked out my stuff. I'm really only on my first real Sims story so keep an open mind when you first start reading. I'm looking forward to reading your stuff as well. I already read Surreal Darkness, and let me say it was amazing! Way better start than I had, but then again, we're writing in different genres. I'll leave a comment there soon. I'm looking forward to reading more.
To me as well, good stories are about saying something that matters to the writer. We can't create something and not put a little bit of us in it, but it is possible to create things without much thought or without believing it personally. I love seeing stories the writer has consciously poured their own thoughts into and really expressed themselves. It doesn't even have to be about personal experiences or feelings, though that is usually especially touching, but can just be about the style or an idea or a story that wanted to come out. And I don't think there's anything wrong with "just" entertainment, because entertaining people is a great goal too. But I do prefer stories where I can see more than "just" entertainment. The best ones can mix both pleasing readers and not losing sight of what the writer themselves wants to express.
And stories are good for healing in my opinion too. When I want to relax and just express myself and forget my worries, I will draw or paint, and through that enjoy just finding the beauty in both good and bad thoughts and events. But when I really want to sort out my jumbled or even distressing thoughts, or deal with a difficult subject, I'll write. Sure, sometimes it can go the other way around, but it's usually that way. And I can see so many other people who have been helped by stories as well, whether they have been writing, reading, or listening or telling them. Stories are a safe environment to deal with difficult subjects (yes, this sentence was pretty much straight lifted from some of our early childhood education lectures), no matter what kind of person we're talking about (at least usually, of course there can be someone who is greatly intimidated by stories. It's always a possibility).
This is a fantastic way to say what writing is all about - and I agree with you 100%. I try and put a little piece of me in each of my main characters because they feel more real and relatable that way. I was working on a historical fantasy for a long time and I gradually grew to hate my main character because she was so opposite of me and I felt no sympathy for her. I decided to go back and start over from square one. I stood on my bed (yes, stood) and laid on my floor and put post-it notes all over the ceiling and walls around my bed with every little tiny thought and idea about her background and motivation and who she was as a character. By the time I was finished, I had star clusters and galaxies of thoughts about who this woman was, and I liked her. She was still so opposite of who I was, but now I understood her. I transferred all the information into a document on my computer, but I still remember the late night heart-to-heart I had with my fictional character that sparked a renewed love for my story.
In a way, I wished I had done this with Kass in my SimLit, but it started out as a pet project and a hobby and then grew into something more. I suppose I could still do this, and develop her even deeper. I already have some post-its on my wall behind my computer. I've got a lot of ideas with Kass and the depths I could take her and questions I want to answer.
I've never been one to be with the "in crowd" or keep up with "trends," at least as much as I can (I need too a little for one of my writing jobs in terms of social media trends). I'm proud of the fact that I'm different. I don't want to be just another copycat of the world. I hope I bring something unique to the table. What makes us different makes us special, but what makes us the same, is our deep human desires and needs to be loved, accepted, and appreciated. I think that's why I love writing so much, bridging those two gaps.
I'm using this period of my life to rediscover myself and my loves and passions. I think I lost myself a bit after college. Don't get me wrong - graduating, getting married, moving away from my family was a dream and a beautiful experience and I love my husband dearly, but I kinda got wrapped up in him and dead-end jobs for awhile and forgot who I was as an individual. He's so supportive of me pursuing my writing and doing the things I love, which makes me love him all the more. I am learning to embrace what makes me unique and different and pursue that wholeheartedly because then I'm living from my true self. Plus hubby thinks my new-found confidence is attractive (which is a total bonus!)
It's also a risk you take when you put your work out on the internet, so I guess it can be relevant to the topic of this thread. It's part of writing Sims stories, the threat of trolls and bullies and obsessive haters. I know not everyone will become the favorite punching bag of the community for a couple of years like I did, but still. You gotta believe in what you're doing to keep going in the face of that.
Which after my best friend abandoned me I hid Valley for three days, but I unhid it and finished the story. Because no one could take Valley from me. No one and nothing.
And of course Surreal Darkness is even more "unique" than Valley was, but I learned my lesson so I don't advertise it very much at all and I don't try to chase followers on Tumblr and I am very careful about who I reach out to.
Thank you all for being decent humans and for being worth sharing my work with.
Your experience sounds awful. That's horrific what people do, especially people you thought were friends. Wow! I'm so glad you found "us" on this forum because I believe in encouraging others not tearing them down. We're not paid to be editors, and frankly, I think editors would've been way more professional and kind. I just don't get people! I thought the story about the kids reading your story at their Halloween party was sweet. Those are the kinds of moments we live for as writers - knowing we've made a difference in someone's life.
There is definitely a vulnerability with putting things out on the Internet. I am still fairly new to the SimLit community and the Sims world so I haven't had any flat-out attackers yet, but I have in other genres of writing I do. It's hard not to take it personally when someone else out there is hurting and struggling and takes what I say and twists it all around and says things like "how dare you judge!" or "how dare you say things like x, y, and z." It is never ever my intention to judge, and it's always my goal to bring hope, healing, and light to my readers' world, but I think it's impossible to do so without including the darkness, the hopelessness, and the pain. Those two opposite experiences build and make my writing real and alive because this is how life really is. Sometimes it's dark and painful and depressing and sometimes it's light and comforting and uplifting. But without one, it's impossible to appreciate the other.
This post is getting way too long. I'll have to read what the rest of you wrote and respond back in a new post.
And then to my questions to all of you: If you have several stories in the works, do you post them in separate blogs or the same blog? Why?
I'm glad you asked this, because I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to launch a Simself version of my autobiography with loose ties to my own life, emphasis on loose. I was thinking pretty seriously about using my other blog. I created it in the early days but moved away from it when I started my Tumblr. Now I'm wanting to go back and use my blog again for longer stories, or stories not connected to Kass's, and I'll start using Tumblr more for self and other Simmers promotion and shorts primarily with pictures. I think this will be easier to keep the story separate from Kass and allow me to explore other avenues of stories due to the more generic name of the blog. I'll also post updates for both stories (and future stories) on both blogs and Tumblr.
@MedleyMisty I read what you shared from your old LJ posts. All I can say is wow. I'm amazed at how deep you are in your writing, actually, I think we all are in one way or another, but I can totally just step into your world in the post you wrote. Writers create their worlds, live and breathe their characters, and become one with the story and it's my hope that my readers become one as well. It's an intimate world we create, sharing the depths of who we are through fiction and allowing others to be invited in. I think this is why it's hard for me to share my writing in a "non-anonymous" (is that a word?) way. Even with my own spouse. He's not a writer and he's very supportive of my writing and encouraging, but I still haven't shared much with him, mostly because I'm not sure he'll understand. But he is a reader and I should get over my stupid insecurities and just share with him. (Sorry, I hijacked this comment with a rant of my own).
I am launching a new story this week, a Simself story, but it's not going to be as lighthearted as Kass's story started out. I have been wanting to do a Simself autobiography, but with enough differences because well, it's a Simworld. I'm weird so I do research into existing characters in SimsWikia and then incorporate them into my story. I like to completely change EA characters and give them a backstory and expand on them. So I found Sims of similar heritage (or at least their names reflected similar heritage) and voila! I have a weird version of my own life wrapped up in the expansively creative playground of Sims 3. This is scary for me because I'm opening myself up more than I did in Kass's story. I have plans for Kass (and her story will get deeper and darker too), but my Simself is a little closer to home and heart. I like how you wrote you give everything and expect everything in return. I do give everything in my writing, when I'm serious, because that's how worlds are built, characters are formed, depth and breadth breathe and heave, and imaginations are lit with the smallest spark starting a blazing fire. I am nervous, but I am writing anyway.
Btw, I think it's cool you read during dinner. Most of our books are still in storage because we moved recently, and I'm lazy and hate unpacking. I'm finding books here and there. It's like finding little jewels and I immediately jump into the treasure chest and start reading, even if I've already read the book before because I'm hungry for literature.
Worldview takes a lifetime to form. I've had several crisis points in my life where everything shifted - when my parents split up, when I entered college, when I had my first serious relationship, when I had my first unrequited love, when I committed to my then boyfriend, now husband, when my family disapproved of my life decisions, when I graduated college and became disillusioned with the world, when I moved across country and started over from scratch, when I found myself stuck in a job I hated... each of these experiences in my life have led to a deeper understanding of myself and the world around me, helping me to figure out what I really want and need and what I don't want and don't need, and this is a lifelong process, doomed to repeat itself because as humans we fundamentally need change. Change is what spurs us to new life, renewal, and understanding.
Now, to answer your questions: How do you guys look at your readers? What sort of relationship do you want with them or expect to have? Do you think of them as customers who are always right and you're there to supply their needs? Do you think of them as co-creators? Do you think of them as an admiring audience? Do you think of them at all?
Honestly, I had no idea about readers in the beginning. When I started Kass, I started her story for me and only me, and figured if anyone else read, they were along for the ride. I still feel that way sometimes. Maybe I shouldn't. I figure the people who care are the ones who will stick with the story, invest in the characters, and leave comments. It's always nice to get a promotion here or there, but honestly, I write mostly for me. Does that make me sound incredibly self-absorbed? Deep down, I want to share my gifts and I want others to love them. I want them to care about my characters and my story. I made the mistake of assuming SimLit was silly in the beginning and didn't take my craft all that serious... just a fun hobby, but then something happened. Something changed as Kass took on a life of her own and I realized that I needed to respect her and give her real struggles and real dreams. The first part was a bit of bumbling around trying to figure out her life and in a way, for me too, bumbling around trying to figure out my own and my connection to my readers (ah! yes, I didn't forget the original question). Do I want readers? Absolutely. Do I want engaged readers? Absolutely. Do I expect everyone to comment? No, but I try to leave comments like I'd want to receive and I do make a point to comment on nearly every SimLit story I read because I know how much I appreciate engagement.
If you have several stories in the works, do you post them in separate blogs or the same blog? Why?
Personally, I prefer to keep everything at the same place. I don't want my stuff scattered around, and it makes me feel more organised. I'm actually not very organised, but this gives me at least the sense of it. At work for example most people think that I'm always well prepared, everything is in order, and i'm this master planner. Half the time i don't even know what i'm doing in my opinion. At least that's what it feels like to me
So at least with my make-believes i'd like to achieve something that is not a complete mess.
@rednenemon Welcome! This is a safe haven for readers and writers who want to get deep. I like your response to readership. "It's there if you want to take a look at it." I try to give new SimLit blogs a fair chance and read at least 1 full post before making up my mind. I often will try 3-4 chapters. Sometimes I stop reading because the subject matter isn't my thing, or it's uncomfortable (and let me clarify, by saying, certain life experiences may make it difficult for a reader to read certain types of content, either they aren't ready yet or they might never be). I expect I will have readers of my stories that drop off for similar reasons. I hope they too would give it a fair shot, but if not, then it's okay. Like you said, "Different people have different tastes."
@MedleyMisty How do I get out of my skull? I have to remind myself that writing inspiration comes from more than just sitting at my computer screen, pounding on the keys. I have a tendency to get so immersed in my writing, to pour my heart, body, and soul into it, that I'll lose all track of time and forget to eat, sleep, shower... (I know, yuck!) That's the downside of not having a full-time day job anymore. However, I love experiencing the world, and writing requires me to experience the world. I can't always be alone in my head, although I'm comfortable there. I love to listen to music, to sing, to dance, to read, and walk out into nature. I love the dancing of butterflies in the flowers, the fluttering of birds wings, and dancing in the rain. I love climbing trees, watching a sunset, looking over a valley and wondering what kinds of people live there, what do they do for work, who do they love, what are their dreams and goals, their sorrows and pains, and how do they cope. I'm blessed to live near the Rockies and I love hiking up the mountain. I also love the excitement I feel when I've written something that amazes and surprises me, when I get to hold my husband's hand, and when I get to see a cherished friend I haven't seen in forever. I love when my cat does something quirky and makes me laugh, when my husband makes me smile, and when a tv show I'm watching gets me to think critically about the world I live in. This is what makes me feel alive. I could go on forever, but I won't for the sake of those of you actually reading this comment.
I do like being in my head sometimes. It helps to shut out the noisy distractions of the world. My head is where my ideas are born and begin to take shape. Sometimes I literally have to say "enough" to the world of busyness around me and get some alone time so I can get out all these ideas that are scrambling around in my brain clamoring for attention.
@CathyTea I "forget" about my readers when writing for the exact same reasons: it gets in the way and I don't want to feel self-conscious or self-censor my writing.
I like how you think of your readers as friends after you hit Publish. I know many people whom I disagree with and can still maintain a relationship. Personally, I like having friends who are different from me because that makes life interesting and makes the world less small. I love exploring new cultures and learning new things because I like expanding my worldview and keeping an open mind. This doesn't mean that I don't take a stand for my values to the point where I have to walk away from reading something or being someone's friend. It saddens me, but I need to be true to who I am and if others can't handle it, then they aren't worth my time (does that sound callous? It sounds horribly callous now that I've typed out those words.) Maybe it's because I don't need people in my life who are going to tear me down or hold me back, even if this means, sacrificing a friendship. My readers for my stories are similar. If someone posts a spiteful or downright mean comment I don't let it through. I won't apologize because it doesn't do anyone good to read those and I won't engage with someone looking to hurt me.
Sometimes I wonder what they're going to think like is this topic too edgy? or should I have done something different? I sometimes hide behind the safety of the game because things happen I couldn't control and it made for an interesting twist or an interesting story but I could've interpreted things differently or written it differently. Ultimately, I have to be comfortable with what I put out there after I click Publish. Sure, I can edit in minor ways, or I can take it down and hide it, but I've put everything right back out there because I wrote it and it's part of the greater story.
I have to "edit" in my other writing worlds and I do need to think of my readers as customers, but I agree with you - they are not always right. I want to meet their needs, and I want to write what's relevant and important to them, but I won't compromise my integrity to do so. In my fiction writing, especially SimLit, I stay true to myself and my writing style. I like large casts of characters, I like backstory, I like depth, and I know my strengths in writing dialogue and my weakness in writing the in-between, as I like to call it. My readers are more like friends, like previously stated, or participating observers than customers. I'm not selling them a product or a story. I'm asking them to participate in my world for a bit.
I like how you said readers are people, @RipuAncestor. Sometimes I wish I'd get instant feedback, but then I have to remember, people have lives beyond the SimLit world. My readers are people. I have to remember that if I struggle to keep up with all the great SimLit fiction out there, others probably do too. For me, it's because I have a husband, a home, family and friends, job searching, school, taking care of my own needs, errands and chores, activities, reading, and writing of my own. For my readers, they are people too with their own lives, things they're invested in, people they care about, jobs, homes, and responsibilities. I have to be patient. But I also have to expect that not everyone will connect with my stories or like them. That's okay. Because they're people and because they're human, they are more than just a lost statistic or the words they type on a screen. They're living, breathing, bone and flesh, body, heart, mind, and soul humans who have different opinions, ideas, values, and identity than I do. It's okay if we differ. It's part of what makes us human.
@RipuAncestor What is your planning process for your story? Do you for example sketch out the plotlines, or just write down some things or just put the game on and see what happens? Draw things? Or something else?
Depends on which story you're asking about... I mentioned in a previous comment how I do character sketches for my fiction writing (like my historical fantasy and my sci fi novel). I am a kinesthetic learner. I learn by experience. In order to experience a person who has never existed before my brain came up with him or her, I like to move around. Post-it notes are my friends. My walls are covered with them - with character traits, qualities, interests, backgrounds, motivations, colors, insights, appearances, history, family, etc. I will stand on my bed, lay on my floor, climb a tree, curl up in a chair, climb under a table, or do whatever else it takes to get into the mind of my character. I really despise desks. They're so constraining. I unfortunately am forced to sit at a desk with my desktop but I like my laptop for its flexibility. I've started covering my walls with post-its for my Sims stories - with unanswered questions and loose ends, with random ideas and inspiration, with character development I come up with while waiting for obnoxious loading screens, with quotes - things my characters might say, and things I don't want to forget to include later. I also have a doc on my phone for when I'm out and about and come up with a great idea. In fact, I often get ideas when I'm in the middle of a conversation with someone or I'm watching a television show with my husband. I always carry a notebook around for these ideas too.
I go into the game with an idea in mind for what I want my character to do and the events that'll happen. Often though I just let the game play after I've gotten critical screenshots because for me, it's fun to watch the randomness of the story play out. It adds an additional challenge for me as a writer to include the events and interactions that transpire.
@InfraGreen I really like and agree with what you said about unlikable characters. And I also really don't like the kind of protagonist centered morality that expects the readers to think something the protagonist does is right or okay just because they're the protagonist. Especially if the same story has someone else do something similar and then condemn them because they're not "the hero".
I think you've been doing really well with your characters. Sure, there are moments when I go "Wow, that was an awful thing they did!", but I still care about them and I find them interesting. I think interest is what draws me to the darker characters in general. And sometimes I find many things I can really sympathise with about them.
@ra3rei We could visit the nearest cat café with Death!
@AdamsEve1231 You seem like such a beautiful person! And I love your way of planning your story. I have this awesome image in my head of post-it notes all over the place, all tiny pieces of inspiration! I'm actually also kind of a kinesthetic learner (thought I'm mostly visual, but kinesthetic comes second), and while I don't put post-it notes to places I do usually start to just randomly walk around while I have a particularly intense thought process in the works.
My Sims stories: The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE) The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE) Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
Also, my question that isn't really a question: Discuss your thoughts/philosophies on writing unlikable characters. Especially unlikable/highly flawed protagonists.
(It's just something I've been thinking about for myself lately)
I actually answered this question before reading your comment. Unlikable characters and/or highly flawed protagonists are important to stories. I hate to sound like a dumb cliche but there always has to be a bad guy. "The bad guy" doesn't have to be a particular person; it could be a concept, a theme, an overarching situation, etc. Part of why I love fiction is because I love being able to root for my hero who is fighting against odds because I think all of us in some way shape or form experience negative odds in our lives. It's part of what makes a story feel real and alive.
Writing these kinds of characters are a lot harder than reading about them. I actually answered this question in a previous comment before reading your post. I had a character in my historical fantasy (non SimLit) novel I was writing. I got halfway through the book and hated my protagonist. Why? Because I couldn't relate to her. I stayed up all night using my crazy post-it note method of trying to get inside her head and it worked. I started over from ground zero and rewrote her story. I ended up adding ten chapters to the book, but they were well worth it because it gave me an inside glimpse into who she was and I was able to finally understand her. She's still so opposite of me with her lifestyle, habits, values, relationships, etc, but I can relate to her because it's in moments of darkness, her true insecurities, vulnerabilities, and questions arise. I ended up using the image of light and dark a lot in this novel (which still isn't completed). She's still unlikable because there are instances where she's incredibly rude, self-absorbed, vain, judgmental, arrogant, manipulative, and cruel, but she's also broken, fragile, insecure, hurting, and lost underneath and I think everyone can relate to that because we've all been there at some point or another.
Haven't written any characters quite like this in my Sim stories. I will have one coming up in Kass's. I also want to try and explore her negative traits, her pain, her brokenness, and her insecurities in part 2. I think any one of my characters has the potential for a dark side.
@MedleyMisty Seth sounds like an intriguingly complex character. I haven't read much of your stuff yet, but I plan to, and I'm curious to read his story.
I have a question after talking to a friend this morning.
Do you guys think there is any difference at all in quality between a beginner and a master, and do you think there is any point in trying to improve?
Or could I get an art gallery to take a piece of paper I scribbled on when I was two because hey, there's no qualitative difference between that and a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh?
Great question! I guess it depends on what you define a master as. Someone with years of experience? Someone who has published works? Someone who has a degree in writing or whatever other art form they practice? Someone who's been recognized by public and adored by masses? I too look at some modern art and wonder what in the world because I could've painted a line or two on a page. What makes them different? What makes them famous? I think some of it has to do in connections. It's more in who you know than what you do. That's a sad reality in the world we live in. However, I think all of us as masters at something one way or another. I know my strengths. Dialogue and character building is my thing. Always has been. Lately, I've been expanding into world building and trying to improve my descriptive writing, but I will always come back to my love for dialogue and character development. I don't think I'm a master at such things, but I'm also not a novice. I've been writing my whole life through the good, the bad, and the ugly. Some things I've been thrilled with, and others I've set aside after rewrites and edits didn't work. We can always improve and grow. All of life is a learning experience. all have the capacity to be master storytellers. Each of us has a unique way of telling Story, something that serves beyond a simple hobby or a fun pasttime, something that speaks deeply to the souls of humans and expands their worldview, helps build a zest for life, and/or affirms the core of who they are.
@ra3rei Oh, that's so awesome! So far the only cat café in Finland is on the other side of the country from where I live.
My Sims stories: The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE) The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE) Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
All this talk about cat cafés got me to see if there were any close to me...turns out that the only one in Boston closed earlier this year. I'm not even a cat person and I'm disappointed.
@AdamsEve1231: I agree with the relatability needing to come first for a character. And I think any character. A villain's motives seem deeper and grounded when there's something relatable as a part of it.
I think evil characters are well written when they are not just pure evil. That kind of works in children's stories, for the sake of simplicity, but above a certain age you just wouldn't believe that someone is like that.
Even after i watched this documentary about people who were "born evil" sociopaths, I couldn't just say that "yes, that person is 100% an evil villain".
I think nobody really enjoys the bad guy who is just evil for the sake of being evil, and has no real motive.
I have not written bad/evil protagonist so far, most of my characters are also not particularly bad guys either, so i don't have experience in writing them. I just know what sort of bad guys i like to read about or see them in TV shows / movies.
I can't link it until I get home, but I found a really interesting essay about conformity in writing and wanting to be liked.
We don't have sales, but we do have stats pages. So I think it''s relevant to us too. Will write a longer post with the link when I get home from work.
One quick thought - I don't write for stats, and I'd never compromise on my writing to be more popular or whatever, but at the same time I do really like having readers, you know?
I can't link it until I get home, but I found a really interesting essay about conformity in writing and wanting to be liked.
We don't have sales, but we do have stats pages. So I think it''s relevant to us too. Will write a longer post with the link when I get home from work.
One quick thought - I don't write for stats, and I'd never compromise on my writing to be more popular or whatever, but at the same time I do really like having readers, you know?
Dun dun dunnn... I sneak out and stop lurking.
But yeah, I definitely feel the whole Not doing it for stats, but also.. I like people to notice it.
I went on quite a long hiatus and afterwards came back and tried to write and was immediately taken aback by the amount of viewers I had lost, it was greatly upsetting but the only thing you can really do is try to build that audience back up, befriend more people, just put yourself out there until you feel comfortable.
But thats pretty much like.. "oh, not enough people like me ? I must try harder!!!"
I think it'd be eaaaaasier to just be like, meh. Just read it if you want.
@BabyDollAnne Welcome to the thread! Glad to have more people here!
My Sims stories: The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE) The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE) Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
I can't link it until I get home, but I found a really interesting essay about conformity in writing and wanting to be liked.
We don't have sales, but we do have stats pages. So I think it''s relevant to us too. Will write a longer post with the link when I get home from work.
One quick thought - I don't write for stats, and I'd never compromise on my writing to be more popular or whatever, but at the same time I do really like having readers, you know?
Dun dun dunnn... I sneak out and stop lurking.
But yeah, I definitely feel the whole Not doing it for stats, but also.. I like people to notice it.
I went on quite a long hiatus and afterwards came back and tried to write and was immediately taken aback by the amount of viewers I had lost, it was greatly upsetting but the only thing you can really do is try to build that audience back up, befriend more people, just put yourself out there until you feel comfortable.
But thats pretty much like.. "oh, not enough people like me ? I must try harder!!!"
I think it'd be eaaaaasier to just be like, meh. Just read it if you want.
Not going to be able to write the long post until after dinner, and then if I get Get Together today I won't want to because I'll be getting scenery shots of Windenburg for Surreal Darkness. But I will get to it eventually!
And yeah, I finished Valley in 2010 and haven't done anything really serious until now, and then I update Surreal Darkness at a much much much slower rate than Valley. So I have definitely seen my stats drop off. And then too most of my readers read Surreal Darkness at the Tumblr instead of the WordPress.
I don't know if that would be easier for me. I have a weird brain. But I have managed to accept that I'm never going to have as many readers as Valley had again, and that's all right. Don't want that many again, because of all the drama and hate that comes with it.
It is hard figuring this stuff out though if you're like me and you're like "I do what I want! I write what I want to write and I'm not here to entertain other people!" but then you hit publish and you're like "Please to read my gift of beauty that I made for you!!" and you feel weird and confused and wrong when people don't.
It is hard figuring this stuff out though if you're like me and you're like "I do what I want! I write what I want to write and I'm not here to entertain other people!" but then you hit publish and you're like "Please to read my gift of beauty that I made for you!!" and you feel weird and confused and wrong when people don't.
I'm pretty much like this too, like I kind of said in one of my previous, possibly confusingly worded posts. Especially if no one ever comments on anything I write, I usually assume that it's because what I did is so bad that people don't even know where to start. I'm super critical towards myself.
My Sims stories: The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE) The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE) Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
It is hard figuring this stuff out though if you're like me and you're like "I do what I want! I write what I want to write and I'm not here to entertain other people!" but then you hit publish and you're like "Please to read my gift of beauty that I made for you!!" and you feel weird and confused and wrong when people don't.
I'm pretty much like this too, like I kind of said in one of my previous, possibly confusingly worded posts. Especially if no one ever comments on anything I write, I usually assume that it's because what I did is so bad that people don't even know where to start. I'm super critical towards myself.
Glad to see that you understand and don't think of it as whining.
Through the years I have become confident in my writing ability, and these days I'm not likely to think of it as a negative comment on the writing. Even when I say that I'm not any good at writing, what I mean is that I don't think I'm measuring up to my own standards. I know that I have achieved a baseline of skill.
So I guess now it's like....
I don't know. How my brain thinks about this is weird and apparently it annoys other people and they see it as whining and writing for the wrong reasons and that we shouldn't expect anyone to care about something that we ourselves care about so deeply.
But it's like....I do struggle with this a lot. And I try to be honest with that struggle, even if honesty attracts haters and bullies and uncaring comments.
I don't write for stats or comments, but I do write to reach out to other people who are alone inside their skulls. I'm sorry if that's wrong or if it means I'm a bad person or if it annoys people, but for me personally if no one reads or comments then I don't see much of a point in writing.
I realize that I was born alone and that I will die alone. Doesn't mean that I don't sometimes want to know that I've managed to reach another person who is out there alone.
Comments
Do you also play The Elder Scrolls Online? You can find me there as CathyTea, too!
Difference in quality, I would say, depends more on the person who's reading. What some may see as a masterpiece, others may see as terrible.
That being said, I think that yes, there's always room for improvement (on the writer's end, anyway). After all, no matter how interesting the concept of a story is, no one will want to read it if it's poorly-written (spelling errors, atrocious grammar, that sort of thing).
There's also the trope known as "Early Installment Weirdness", in the beginning of some stories. (Personally, I don't really worry about this one. After all, the story's just beginning, and trying to find its footing) In time, as the story goes on, certain traits are better established.
But basically, quality writing can depend on the reader, but writers can always improve.
(...Here's hoping I didn't contradict myself at any point in this post. I tend to do that without thinking)
Part One(Complete 9/24/16) /Part Two(on hold)/Short Stories(on hold)/Twinbrook 1996(on hold)/Ten Crystal Hearts (on hold)
I own the TS3 Store as of 12/11/16 (sort of. It's complicated)
Also, I have a certain love affair with unpolished works--with the writing of folks who are just starting for the first time, seeing what they want to say, and feeling that sudden deep joy of being able to express themselves and these stories that are waiting to come out!
I teach writing (English composition), so I've developed a love of seeing what writers are saying even when it's not expressed in the most polished way--sometimes, if there's earnestness there, I'll love that even more than the polished, if the polished lacks earnestness and enthusiasm.
Do you also play The Elder Scrolls Online? You can find me there as CathyTea, too!
@CathyTea: That's the sort of quote I'd want to frame.
And now try and address my own prompt:
Yes, I have been thinking about it lately!
I have wondered why I can like a work of fiction with protagonists that are meant to be unlikable, and whine about another with the same kind of protagonist because I really don't have any interest in the thought of them succeeding. And with Eight Cicadas, I need it to fall into the former category. So far, the response is good, but I gotta stay on top of keeping it that way.
Anyways, a few general notes I took while thinking, on why an unlikable protagonist can work. They might still be appealing because of:
- Redemption/character growth. A protagonist can start out as bad. Even as horrifically evil, but a redemption for them in the end makes their journey even more worth it. You're invested in them because they can change and are journeying towards change. Kind of the softest choice here. The reverse of a protagonist slowly slipping into something horrible works too. You have a chance to see them as a human, and while you might not root for their downfall, it is a change worth sticking around for.
- Boosting them up with some great adventures. The most challenging character to "justify" to myself was actually Frank Underwood from the US adaptation of House of Cards. He's a scheming, devious politician, and he isn't a tragic character of any sorts (at least not to me). But when I watch the show, I still want him to succeed in his plans. And I think it's because they give Frank plots that are fun to watch, even with a despicable sociopath like him at the helm.
- The sympathetic supporting details. Probably what I go for the most. Hints of trauma and humanity shining out of a character who does bad things. It can also intersect with a decent character who does bad deeds (also a favorite of mine; most of the characters in Eight Cicadas break the law on multiple occasions, but plenty of them are likable people). It's the actions that are bad, not the character. This can tie into the first two: you might want to see them overcome their demons and redeem themselves, or their humanity makes their adventures more fun and fulfilling to follow.
- Giving them an antagonist who's worth it. Whether it's a "Hero Antagonist" who you might root for deep down, or a villain who manages to be even worse, an unlikable protagonist can have fun adventures being against an antagonist.
...
[Warning: me being negative and ranty in the spoiler]
I do think there needs to be a bit of awareness in the story and by the author that if a protagonist does an awful thing or many of them, it's not a sympathetic thing just because it's a protagonist doing it. I think the best unlikable protagonists have that sort of awareness surrounding their story.
It's the least I can try. Sometimes I'm surprised when people say "I love Annette/I really feel for Shark" because they do some selfish or even heinous things. Annette wanted to cause a fatal gas leak in a building just to get paid for it, wants her former boss jailed over a petty feud, likes to irritate a violent police officer who wants her destroyed, steals property on the regular...but people act accordingly to her. She doesn't have many friends, and people cringe and object to things she says and does. Shark assaulted a minor, used his ex's adult son for some twisted sense of gratification, and brought the entire family down with his prolonged mourning period, and people reacted to him as well. He died without a job, and with everyone thinking of him as an obsessed, destructive weirdo. It's a sort of in-story awareness towards a character's actions, and I think that's what people see in Annette and Shark. And what might be lacking for other characters who are bad but don't seem to get all the gushing comments about them (Bill, Sinbad, etc. The only person who seems to reasonably react to either of them being jerks is Annette, who will chew anyone out. Everyone else takes Bill's laziness and infidelity with a shrug, and try to apologize for Sinbad's hot temper, numerous instances of assault, cheating on his fiancee, and so on).
The future of the story is going be fun and difficult for me. Can I redeem destructive brats? Chronic attention seekers? Drug dealers? Immortals who have lost their moral code to the ravishes of time?
People have done it for even worse characters.
outrun / blog / tunglr
@CathyTea: I agree with that. Especially because when you're reading stories online, there are a lot of very young writers, or ESL speakers (or both). I think it's important to encourage them!
outrun / blog / tunglr
I read your spoiler bit, and I feel you're on to something amazing that I'll be thinking about during cello and lunch, which is that irony provides exactly what's needed with these unlikable characters.
I'm thinking about Poe, and the only thing that makes "The Cask of the Amontadillo" (sp?) palatable to me (and actually, rather delicious) is the irony!
What makes this work? Let's think about! and share...
Do you also play The Elder Scrolls Online? You can find me there as CathyTea, too!
There's a recent fantasy book called Empress...I think. And I ended that book wondering if the character was justified in her actions, if she thought she was telling the truth, if she was just manipulative, or what. I don't usually end books wondering that about the protagonist. Even when fantasy presents antiheroes they either uausally make you understand them. One of my early high school aged reading experiences was of getting into the mind of the main villain. That was when I realized that most people don't think they're evil. Which was a guiding tenet of mine for a while.
Like @CathyTea, I wrote my evil characters in my legacy in a more sympathtic light. Based off that first principal of mine. (I ended up with a rash of sims with the "evil" trait and had to figure out what to do with it.) I think I got the closest to a true unlikeable character in Bane...but didn't quite go there. He was still far too likeable, especially in his later years when his "family oriented" trait was in the forefront. He was quite a decent father, and I always assumed the majority of his evilness was around strangers, which we never saw. He had a funny evil voice as well in my head that was so easy to write. But looking back, I kind of wish I'd pressed more and exposed more of his personality. I actually wish that in most of my legacy so I'm really looking forward to writing some new stories.
I do enjoy reading about unlikeable characters as long as they're not left on a two-dimensional cartoon like nature. Like @RipuAncestor showed, cartoons don't need to be two dimensional. In my mind that is just lazy writing. Something being evil for evils sake just annoys me if it doesn't seem to match how human nature and human psyches work.
That being said, while I enjoy reading about them, I don't always enjoy watching them. I tried getting into madmen since at the time I worked in an ad agency which was fitting, and I could tell that while I disliked the characters that they were going to grow on me and I would learn to appreciate them, I decided not to spend the time. Same with House. I'm not sure why a book is more palatable than a show....perhaps books show you the psyche faster so I can get behind it? Perhaps because the nasty characters I read in books come in fantasy settings and sim worlds where I'm less forced to think about them existing in real life. As @medleymisty said, the books are a safe place to explore the dark side of ourselves. When they're set in the real world, perhaps it's too close to home for me.
Also yay for Pratchett's Death! I would love to run into him anyday...I'd bring him a kitten and a bowl of curry!
Warning, I just typed this in an iToy, so I may need to edit it for autocorrect clarity.
@MedleyMisty I am very proud of my heritage too. I have a unique and eclectic background and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's what has made me who I am today. I'd appreciate it if you checked out my stuff. I'm really only on my first real Sims story so keep an open mind when you first start reading. I'm looking forward to reading your stuff as well. I already read Surreal Darkness, and let me say it was amazing! Way better start than I had, but then again, we're writing in different genres. I'll leave a comment there soon. I'm looking forward to reading more.
This is a fantastic way to say what writing is all about - and I agree with you 100%. I try and put a little piece of me in each of my main characters because they feel more real and relatable that way. I was working on a historical fantasy for a long time and I gradually grew to hate my main character because she was so opposite of me and I felt no sympathy for her. I decided to go back and start over from square one. I stood on my bed (yes, stood) and laid on my floor and put post-it notes all over the ceiling and walls around my bed with every little tiny thought and idea about her background and motivation and who she was as a character. By the time I was finished, I had star clusters and galaxies of thoughts about who this woman was, and I liked her. She was still so opposite of who I was, but now I understood her. I transferred all the information into a document on my computer, but I still remember the late night heart-to-heart I had with my fictional character that sparked a renewed love for my story.
In a way, I wished I had done this with Kass in my SimLit, but it started out as a pet project and a hobby and then grew into something more. I suppose I could still do this, and develop her even deeper. I already have some post-its on my wall behind my computer. I've got a lot of ideas with Kass and the depths I could take her and questions I want to answer.
I've never been one to be with the "in crowd" or keep up with "trends," at least as much as I can (I need too a little for one of my writing jobs in terms of social media trends). I'm proud of the fact that I'm different. I don't want to be just another copycat of the world. I hope I bring something unique to the table. What makes us different makes us special, but what makes us the same, is our deep human desires and needs to be loved, accepted, and appreciated. I think that's why I love writing so much, bridging those two gaps.
I'm using this period of my life to rediscover myself and my loves and passions. I think I lost myself a bit after college. Don't get me wrong - graduating, getting married, moving away from my family was a dream and a beautiful experience and I love my husband dearly, but I kinda got wrapped up in him and dead-end jobs for awhile and forgot who I was as an individual. He's so supportive of me pursuing my writing and doing the things I love, which makes me love him all the more. I am learning to embrace what makes me unique and different and pursue that wholeheartedly because then I'm living from my true self. Plus hubby thinks my new-found confidence is attractive (which is a total bonus!)
Your experience sounds awful. That's horrific what people do, especially people you thought were friends. Wow! I'm so glad you found "us" on this forum because I believe in encouraging others not tearing them down. We're not paid to be editors, and frankly, I think editors would've been way more professional and kind. I just don't get people! I thought the story about the kids reading your story at their Halloween party was sweet. Those are the kinds of moments we live for as writers - knowing we've made a difference in someone's life.
There is definitely a vulnerability with putting things out on the Internet. I am still fairly new to the SimLit community and the Sims world so I haven't had any flat-out attackers yet, but I have in other genres of writing I do. It's hard not to take it personally when someone else out there is hurting and struggling and takes what I say and twists it all around and says things like "how dare you judge!" or "how dare you say things like x, y, and z." It is never ever my intention to judge, and it's always my goal to bring hope, healing, and light to my readers' world, but I think it's impossible to do so without including the darkness, the hopelessness, and the pain. Those two opposite experiences build and make my writing real and alive because this is how life really is. Sometimes it's dark and painful and depressing and sometimes it's light and comforting and uplifting. But without one, it's impossible to appreciate the other.
This post is getting way too long. I'll have to read what the rest of you wrote and respond back in a new post.
Find me elsewhere:
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I'm glad you asked this, because I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to launch a Simself version of my autobiography with loose ties to my own life, emphasis on loose. I was thinking pretty seriously about using my other blog. I created it in the early days but moved away from it when I started my Tumblr. Now I'm wanting to go back and use my blog again for longer stories, or stories not connected to Kass's, and I'll start using Tumblr more for self and other Simmers promotion and shorts primarily with pictures. I think this will be easier to keep the story separate from Kass and allow me to explore other avenues of stories due to the more generic name of the blog. I'll also post updates for both stories (and future stories) on both blogs and Tumblr.
@MedleyMisty I read what you shared from your old LJ posts. All I can say is wow. I'm amazed at how deep you are in your writing, actually, I think we all are in one way or another, but I can totally just step into your world in the post you wrote. Writers create their worlds, live and breathe their characters, and become one with the story and it's my hope that my readers become one as well. It's an intimate world we create, sharing the depths of who we are through fiction and allowing others to be invited in. I think this is why it's hard for me to share my writing in a "non-anonymous" (is that a word?) way. Even with my own spouse. He's not a writer and he's very supportive of my writing and encouraging, but I still haven't shared much with him, mostly because I'm not sure he'll understand. But he is a reader and I should get over my stupid insecurities and just share with him. (Sorry, I hijacked this comment with a rant of my own).
I am launching a new story this week, a Simself story, but it's not going to be as lighthearted as Kass's story started out. I have been wanting to do a Simself autobiography, but with enough differences because well, it's a Simworld. I'm weird so I do research into existing characters in SimsWikia and then incorporate them into my story. I like to completely change EA characters and give them a backstory and expand on them. So I found Sims of similar heritage (or at least their names reflected similar heritage) and voila! I have a weird version of my own life wrapped up in the expansively creative playground of Sims 3. This is scary for me because I'm opening myself up more than I did in Kass's story. I have plans for Kass (and her story will get deeper and darker too), but my Simself is a little closer to home and heart. I like how you wrote you give everything and expect everything in return. I do give everything in my writing, when I'm serious, because that's how worlds are built, characters are formed, depth and breadth breathe and heave, and imaginations are lit with the smallest spark starting a blazing fire. I am nervous, but I am writing anyway.
Btw, I think it's cool you read during dinner. Most of our books are still in storage because we moved recently, and I'm lazy and hate unpacking. I'm finding books here and there. It's like finding little jewels and I immediately jump into the treasure chest and start reading, even if I've already read the book before because I'm hungry for literature.
Worldview takes a lifetime to form. I've had several crisis points in my life where everything shifted - when my parents split up, when I entered college, when I had my first serious relationship, when I had my first unrequited love, when I committed to my then boyfriend, now husband, when my family disapproved of my life decisions, when I graduated college and became disillusioned with the world, when I moved across country and started over from scratch, when I found myself stuck in a job I hated... each of these experiences in my life have led to a deeper understanding of myself and the world around me, helping me to figure out what I really want and need and what I don't want and don't need, and this is a lifelong process, doomed to repeat itself because as humans we fundamentally need change. Change is what spurs us to new life, renewal, and understanding.
Now, to answer your questions:
How do you guys look at your readers? What sort of relationship do you want with them or expect to have? Do you think of them as customers who are always right and you're there to supply their needs? Do you think of them as co-creators? Do you think of them as an admiring audience? Do you think of them at all?
Honestly, I had no idea about readers in the beginning. When I started Kass, I started her story for me and only me, and figured if anyone else read, they were along for the ride. I still feel that way sometimes. Maybe I shouldn't. I figure the people who care are the ones who will stick with the story, invest in the characters, and leave comments. It's always nice to get a promotion here or there, but honestly, I write mostly for me. Does that make me sound incredibly self-absorbed? Deep down, I want to share my gifts and I want others to love them. I want them to care about my characters and my story. I made the mistake of assuming SimLit was silly in the beginning and didn't take my craft all that serious... just a fun hobby, but then something happened. Something changed as Kass took on a life of her own and I realized that I needed to respect her and give her real struggles and real dreams. The first part was a bit of bumbling around trying to figure out her life and in a way, for me too, bumbling around trying to figure out my own and my connection to my readers (ah! yes, I didn't forget the original question). Do I want readers? Absolutely. Do I want engaged readers? Absolutely. Do I expect everyone to comment? No, but I try to leave comments like I'd want to receive and I do make a point to comment on nearly every SimLit story I read because I know how much I appreciate engagement.
Find me elsewhere:
My EA App ID: livinasimminlife
Livin' A Simmin' Life Stories
My Worldbuilding Blog
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Personally, I prefer to keep everything at the same place. I don't want my stuff scattered around, and it makes me feel more organised. I'm actually not very organised, but this gives me at least the sense of it. At work for example most people think that I'm always well prepared, everything is in order, and i'm this master planner. Half the time i don't even know what i'm doing in my opinion. At least that's what it feels like to me
So at least with my make-believes i'd like to achieve something that is not a complete mess.
Regrets (Finished)
Abbie's Diary (Finished)
Mistakes
@MedleyMisty How do I get out of my skull? I have to remind myself that writing inspiration comes from more than just sitting at my computer screen, pounding on the keys. I have a tendency to get so immersed in my writing, to pour my heart, body, and soul into it, that I'll lose all track of time and forget to eat, sleep, shower... (I know, yuck!) That's the downside of not having a full-time day job anymore. However, I love experiencing the world, and writing requires me to experience the world. I can't always be alone in my head, although I'm comfortable there. I love to listen to music, to sing, to dance, to read, and walk out into nature. I love the dancing of butterflies in the flowers, the fluttering of birds wings, and dancing in the rain. I love climbing trees, watching a sunset, looking over a valley and wondering what kinds of people live there, what do they do for work, who do they love, what are their dreams and goals, their sorrows and pains, and how do they cope. I'm blessed to live near the Rockies and I love hiking up the mountain. I also love the excitement I feel when I've written something that amazes and surprises me, when I get to hold my husband's hand, and when I get to see a cherished friend I haven't seen in forever. I love when my cat does something quirky and makes me laugh, when my husband makes me smile, and when a tv show I'm watching gets me to think critically about the world I live in. This is what makes me feel alive. I could go on forever, but I won't for the sake of those of you actually reading this comment.
I do like being in my head sometimes. It helps to shut out the noisy distractions of the world. My head is where my ideas are born and begin to take shape. Sometimes I literally have to say "enough" to the world of busyness around me and get some alone time so I can get out all these ideas that are scrambling around in my brain clamoring for attention.
@CathyTea I "forget" about my readers when writing for the exact same reasons: it gets in the way and I don't want to feel self-conscious or self-censor my writing.
I like how you think of your readers as friends after you hit Publish. I know many people whom I disagree with and can still maintain a relationship. Personally, I like having friends who are different from me because that makes life interesting and makes the world less small. I love exploring new cultures and learning new things because I like expanding my worldview and keeping an open mind. This doesn't mean that I don't take a stand for my values to the point where I have to walk away from reading something or being someone's friend. It saddens me, but I need to be true to who I am and if others can't handle it, then they aren't worth my time (does that sound callous? It sounds horribly callous now that I've typed out those words.) Maybe it's because I don't need people in my life who are going to tear me down or hold me back, even if this means, sacrificing a friendship. My readers for my stories are similar. If someone posts a spiteful or downright mean comment I don't let it through. I won't apologize because it doesn't do anyone good to read those and I won't engage with someone looking to hurt me.
Sometimes I wonder what they're going to think like is this topic too edgy? or should I have done something different? I sometimes hide behind the safety of the game because things happen I couldn't control and it made for an interesting twist or an interesting story but I could've interpreted things differently or written it differently. Ultimately, I have to be comfortable with what I put out there after I click Publish. Sure, I can edit in minor ways, or I can take it down and hide it, but I've put everything right back out there because I wrote it and it's part of the greater story.
I have to "edit" in my other writing worlds and I do need to think of my readers as customers, but I agree with you - they are not always right. I want to meet their needs, and I want to write what's relevant and important to them, but I won't compromise my integrity to do so. In my fiction writing, especially SimLit, I stay true to myself and my writing style. I like large casts of characters, I like backstory, I like depth, and I know my strengths in writing dialogue and my weakness in writing the in-between, as I like to call it. My readers are more like friends, like previously stated, or participating observers than customers. I'm not selling them a product or a story. I'm asking them to participate in my world for a bit.
I like how you said readers are people, @RipuAncestor. Sometimes I wish I'd get instant feedback, but then I have to remember, people have lives beyond the SimLit world. My readers are people. I have to remember that if I struggle to keep up with all the great SimLit fiction out there, others probably do too. For me, it's because I have a husband, a home, family and friends, job searching, school, taking care of my own needs, errands and chores, activities, reading, and writing of my own. For my readers, they are people too with their own lives, things they're invested in, people they care about, jobs, homes, and responsibilities. I have to be patient. But I also have to expect that not everyone will connect with my stories or like them. That's okay. Because they're people and because they're human, they are more than just a lost statistic or the words they type on a screen. They're living, breathing, bone and flesh, body, heart, mind, and soul humans who have different opinions, ideas, values, and identity than I do. It's okay if we differ. It's part of what makes us human.
@RipuAncestor What is your planning process for your story? Do you for example sketch out the plotlines, or just write down some things or just put the game on and see what happens? Draw things? Or something else?
Depends on which story you're asking about... I mentioned in a previous comment how I do character sketches for my fiction writing (like my historical fantasy and my sci fi novel). I am a kinesthetic learner. I learn by experience. In order to experience a person who has never existed before my brain came up with him or her, I like to move around. Post-it notes are my friends. My walls are covered with them - with character traits, qualities, interests, backgrounds, motivations, colors, insights, appearances, history, family, etc. I will stand on my bed, lay on my floor, climb a tree, curl up in a chair, climb under a table, or do whatever else it takes to get into the mind of my character. I really despise desks. They're so constraining. I unfortunately am forced to sit at a desk with my desktop but I like my laptop for its flexibility. I've started covering my walls with post-its for my Sims stories - with unanswered questions and loose ends, with random ideas and inspiration, with character development I come up with while waiting for obnoxious loading screens, with quotes - things my characters might say, and things I don't want to forget to include later. I also have a doc on my phone for when I'm out and about and come up with a great idea. In fact, I often get ideas when I'm in the middle of a conversation with someone or I'm watching a television show with my husband. I always carry a notebook around for these ideas too.
I go into the game with an idea in mind for what I want my character to do and the events that'll happen. Often though I just let the game play after I've gotten critical screenshots because for me, it's fun to watch the randomness of the story play out. It adds an additional challenge for me as a writer to include the events and interactions that transpire.
Find me elsewhere:
My EA App ID: livinasimminlife
Livin' A Simmin' Life Stories
My Worldbuilding Blog
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I think you've been doing really well with your characters. Sure, there are moments when I go "Wow, that was an awful thing they did!", but I still care about them and I find them interesting. I think interest is what draws me to the darker characters in general. And sometimes I find many things I can really sympathise with about them.
@CathyTea Thanks! Scrooge is the best.
@ra3rei We could visit the nearest cat café with Death!
@AdamsEve1231 You seem like such a beautiful person! And I love your way of planning your story. I have this awesome image in my head of post-it notes all over the place, all tiny pieces of inspiration! I'm actually also kind of a kinesthetic learner (thought I'm mostly visual, but kinesthetic comes second), and while I don't put post-it notes to places I do usually start to just randomly walk around while I have a particularly intense thought process in the works.
The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE)
The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE)
Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
I actually answered this question before reading your comment. Unlikable characters and/or highly flawed protagonists are important to stories. I hate to sound like a dumb cliche but there always has to be a bad guy. "The bad guy" doesn't have to be a particular person; it could be a concept, a theme, an overarching situation, etc. Part of why I love fiction is because I love being able to root for my hero who is fighting against odds because I think all of us in some way shape or form experience negative odds in our lives. It's part of what makes a story feel real and alive.
Writing these kinds of characters are a lot harder than reading about them. I actually answered this question in a previous comment before reading your post. I had a character in my historical fantasy (non SimLit) novel I was writing. I got halfway through the book and hated my protagonist. Why? Because I couldn't relate to her. I stayed up all night using my crazy post-it note method of trying to get inside her head and it worked. I started over from ground zero and rewrote her story. I ended up adding ten chapters to the book, but they were well worth it because it gave me an inside glimpse into who she was and I was able to finally understand her. She's still so opposite of me with her lifestyle, habits, values, relationships, etc, but I can relate to her because it's in moments of darkness, her true insecurities, vulnerabilities, and questions arise. I ended up using the image of light and dark a lot in this novel (which still isn't completed). She's still unlikable because there are instances where she's incredibly rude, self-absorbed, vain, judgmental, arrogant, manipulative, and cruel, but she's also broken, fragile, insecure, hurting, and lost underneath and I think everyone can relate to that because we've all been there at some point or another.
Haven't written any characters quite like this in my Sim stories. I will have one coming up in Kass's. I also want to try and explore her negative traits, her pain, her brokenness, and her insecurities in part 2. I think any one of my characters has the potential for a dark side.
@MedleyMisty Seth sounds like an intriguingly complex character. I haven't read much of your stuff yet, but I plan to, and I'm curious to read his story.
Great question! I guess it depends on what you define a master as. Someone with years of experience? Someone who has published works? Someone who has a degree in writing or whatever other art form they practice? Someone who's been recognized by public and adored by masses? I too look at some modern art and wonder what in the world because I could've painted a line or two on a page. What makes them different? What makes them famous? I think some of it has to do in connections. It's more in who you know than what you do. That's a sad reality in the world we live in. However, I think all of us as masters at something one way or another. I know my strengths. Dialogue and character building is my thing. Always has been. Lately, I've been expanding into world building and trying to improve my descriptive writing, but I will always come back to my love for dialogue and character development. I don't think I'm a master at such things, but I'm also not a novice. I've been writing my whole life through the good, the bad, and the ugly. Some things I've been thrilled with, and others I've set aside after rewrites and edits didn't work. We can always improve and grow. All of life is a learning experience. all have the capacity to be master storytellers. Each of us has a unique way of telling Story, something that serves beyond a simple hobby or a fun pasttime, something that speaks deeply to the souls of humans and expands their worldview, helps build a zest for life, and/or affirms the core of who they are.
Find me elsewhere:
My EA App ID: livinasimminlife
Livin' A Simmin' Life Stories
My Worldbuilding Blog
Simblr
My Sims Pinterest
The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE)
The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE)
Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
@AdamsEve1231: I agree with the relatability needing to come first for a character. And I think any character. A villain's motives seem deeper and grounded when there's something relatable as a part of it.
outrun / blog / tunglr
Even after i watched this documentary about people who were "born evil" sociopaths, I couldn't just say that "yes, that person is 100% an evil villain".
I think nobody really enjoys the bad guy who is just evil for the sake of being evil, and has no real motive.
I have not written bad/evil protagonist so far, most of my characters are also not particularly bad guys either, so i don't have experience in writing them. I just know what sort of bad guys i like to read about or see them in TV shows / movies.
Regrets (Finished)
Abbie's Diary (Finished)
Mistakes
We don't have sales, but we do have stats pages. So I think it''s relevant to us too. Will write a longer post with the link when I get home from work.
One quick thought - I don't write for stats, and I'd never compromise on my writing to be more popular or whatever, but at the same time I do really like having readers, you know?
Dun dun dunnn... I sneak out and stop lurking.
But yeah, I definitely feel the whole Not doing it for stats, but also.. I like people to notice it.
I went on quite a long hiatus and afterwards came back and tried to write and was immediately taken aback by the amount of viewers I had lost, it was greatly upsetting but the only thing you can really do is try to build that audience back up, befriend more people, just put yourself out there until you feel comfortable.
But thats pretty much like.. "oh, not enough people like me ? I must try harder!!!"
I think it'd be eaaaaasier to just be like, meh. Just read it if you want.
Do you also play The Elder Scrolls Online? You can find me there as CathyTea, too!
I've been lurking a while, waiting for something I felt strong enough about to comment
The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE)
The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE)
Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
Not going to be able to write the long post until after dinner, and then if I get Get Together today I won't want to because I'll be getting scenery shots of Windenburg for Surreal Darkness. But I will get to it eventually!
And yeah, I finished Valley in 2010 and haven't done anything really serious until now, and then I update Surreal Darkness at a much much much slower rate than Valley. So I have definitely seen my stats drop off. And then too most of my readers read Surreal Darkness at the Tumblr instead of the WordPress.
I don't know if that would be easier for me. I have a weird brain.
It is hard figuring this stuff out though if you're like me and you're like "I do what I want! I write what I want to write and I'm not here to entertain other people!" but then you hit publish and you're like "Please to read my gift of beauty that I made for you!!" and you feel weird and confused and wrong when people don't.
I'm pretty much like this too, like I kind of said in one of my previous, possibly confusingly worded posts. Especially if no one ever comments on anything I write, I usually assume that it's because what I did is so bad that people don't even know where to start. I'm super critical towards myself.
The Fey of Life - fairytales in life are few and far between (Forum thread HERE)
The Chrysanthemum Tango - a story about life, death, magic, and how to be a good landlady (Forum thread HERE)
Forget-Me-Not - some things just refuse to stay buried; an Ambrosia Challenge story (Forum thread HERE)
Glad to see that you understand and don't think of it as whining.
Through the years I have become confident in my writing ability, and these days I'm not likely to think of it as a negative comment on the writing. Even when I say that I'm not any good at writing, what I mean is that I don't think I'm measuring up to my own standards. I know that I have achieved a baseline of skill.
So I guess now it's like....
I don't know. How my brain thinks about this is weird and apparently it annoys other people and they see it as whining and writing for the wrong reasons and that we shouldn't expect anyone to care about something that we ourselves care about so deeply.
But it's like....I do struggle with this a lot. And I try to be honest with that struggle, even if honesty attracts haters and bullies and uncaring comments.
I don't write for stats or comments, but I do write to reach out to other people who are alone inside their skulls. I'm sorry if that's wrong or if it means I'm a bad person or if it annoys people, but for me personally if no one reads or comments then I don't see much of a point in writing.
I realize that I was born alone and that I will die alone. Doesn't mean that I don't sometimes want to know that I've managed to reach another person who is out there alone.