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sims 4 and rabbit holes

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EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
hello guys after read that posts:
http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/830314/please-tweak-the-ai-and-other-matters#latest
and play sims 3 and see the rabbit holes and all i started to understand better how this game work toward played zones and also i want to clarif games mechanics:

first if you love the sims 4, if you love load screen or closed worlds or you hate open world, or you don't want try to follow my logic or just hate me, give a favor to me and everyone and just ignore this thread now if you want proper discuss wellcome

sims 4 as the gurus even told a long time is like a Sitcom, the game is divided into zones, each lot and the open area around it is an zone, this area is used as the scenario where everything happens, any other area outside this zone is a dead area or a rabbit hole, the game cities or neirborhood are just a illusion made by the world map, you dont really have then you have just separated zones where you gonna play in one place each time, they not really connected as they are supposed to be.

let's go back to sims 3 rabbit holes and how they work:
your sim goes to a zone by walking or on a car or other vehicle and enter in that zone, once inside he enter in a "standby" mode where he is just standing waiting time pass the npcs also can come to the same rabbithole as you and you can interact with then by a menu.

sims 4 rabbit holes:
you sim disappear in the air then he is in the rabbit hole, unlike sims 3 in sims 4 none npc sim will be inside that rabbit hole with you, you sim will be really alone in the rabbit hole, like sims 3 you have a actions menu, where all the actions you choose are just a blank script which will take care of the option you choose, none real action will happen, you sim like sims 3 will just be standing there "in standby"until you decide move then or the time ends.

if you choose a option like rise skill, the script just will let your choosen skill bar slowly rise over time to make looks like you sim is doing something while he is doing really nothing, if you choose take care of yourself then the script just will fill up our need when they are too low, your not gonna really cook or take a shower or any related action he will just be standing there, if you choose interact with someone the game just give you a list based on your friends or peoples which have the same career as you to you choose to "rise the relationship bar' without any real action, they are not really speaking the bar is just being filled up over time, like sims 3.

i hope that part was not complicated to understand now to the sims 4 mechanic:

sims 4 is a mix of rabbit holes and active places, if you play with only one sim then you will be fine if you play with more then that is when the "rabbit hole aspect come".

each time you are focused in a specific zone of the game that zone is the active zone then the game start to spawn random sims(using a messed system to choose the sims), that spawned sims only follow few single strange rules which dont make any sense or really make the game looks like a sitcom, don't matter how much different sims you have in the world, the game will try to spawn the same sims over and over for you excluding some random culled sims or as long some sims don't die or get culled, that sims will be what the game will try to send to you have as interaction options, when you change the active place the game will try if possible spawn the same sims agains it not possible he at last will try to spawn some of then, them when you are in a gym and move to another gym you will get exactly the same sims in previous gym or maybe one to 3 at last will change but most will be the same.

with that in mind normally i read peoples saying "i love sims 4 because my hood is more alive i see a lot of sims" well from a "lifesimulator point of view" this is somehow wrong in the sense is which how the game choose to spawn sims, if the sims walking around your house where actually peoples from your hood, or peoples from hoods close to you or some homless could make a little sense, but when peoples from the other town, or hoods to afar from you are constantly spawn in your hood and you almost don't see anyone from your hood then this is wrong, if i live in oasis spring and i see mortimer goth or bella jogging around or watering plants around my house then this is weird and following "logic" don't make sense you can't wait let's say van dame jogging around your house or appearing in all the gyms you go if him not a stalker or not your best friend or not live close to you and have the same sort of life.

this in real life is called being stalker and is "not fine" and livelly, this is a issue, as i tould i could be fine if the spawned sims make sense but dont make.


leaving that now going to "rabbit holes" while in sims 3 only some places where rabbit holes, and others no and at last houses also no, sims 4 follow a system where if you not playing in that zone then she is a rabbit hole.

exemple you have a family of 5 sims a young adult couple, 2 teen and one child

you decide send the couple to a gym the 2 teens to a librain and the child be at home

when you are playing with the couple the 2 teens and the child will be at "rabbit holes", that places will be rabbit holes like in sims 3, the 2 teens and the child will be in standby mode and the only thing you can do is choose actions which will be worked as scripts, that sims not gonna do anything and neither none sim npc will be there with then. they will be alone.

let's say you put the couple to use the gym machines and speak with others sims then switch to the teens, in the moment you do that the using machines and speak actions will be lost and the couple will enter in the standby mode and the scenario will be changed to librain, if you switch back to your previous couple the game random will choose actions for your sims being doing in that moment like in the sitcoms when the actors are positioned to start the play, then the game will prepar the stage for that, you can sometimes be luck to see the sim doing the samething(the game choose the samething) or they doing a different thing will be the choices the game will make while loading the scenario.

going back to teens, when you go to teens, then the game will try to load the new scenario and will even try to use the sims from the previous scenario based on traits or skills(that is one of the few aspects of traits or skills which somehow works) to the new one, like if you spot mortimer at gym then you have a chance to see him also in the librain, then you choose to make your teens speak with others sims and read books then you in the menu choose your kid to take care of himself then the script will be running and at anytime the child needs drop the game will just fill that need, no actions, just rabbit hole.

if you decide to move to your house to play with the child then the librain scenario will be dismissed like the gym and the house scenario will be activated and all what your teens where doing in the librain will be lost as the same of what your couple was doing, then again if possible while mounting the new scenario, the house, the game again will try to "repeat some sims" from previous scenarios like when you have the extras in sitcom and since they are extras you normally don't notice which all of then are the same peoples over and over.


if you thing in that way, or playing with many sims then sims 4 can easy have more "rabbit holes" than sims 3, because basically any nonplayed place is a rabbit hole sepparated by the load screens mechanics, while for many peoples this is not a trouble, for peoples like me which love immersion or feel which we are really playing with peoples living a city this is a really big gamebreak and killing, this is why a open world is really important because you don't lost contact with all the sims you are playing, you can play with all of then without any trouble if proper done.

when i look to sims 4 hoods the peoples walking around the stalkers feelings the peoples ring my belt like a army and lot of game breaks and "non life simulation aspects" because how the game handle npcs spawns, how the rabbit holes and load screens break a lot of game immersion i really don't feel playing a life simulator at last not as i was waiting/hoping for.

that also can sumarise some peoples feelings which feel the game being disconnected and bla bla bla as we see some peoples posting over it, on how they feel the worlds being disconnected or missing immersion, this feelings is because indeed you really don't have a immersion since when play with many sims at same time you start to deal with a lot of "rabbit holes without notice it, the miss of controll the sims which are in standby mode and you wanted they be really doing something not jus standing in a dead place.

basically sims 4 is like playing a sitcom or playing dollhouse, and even more a dollhouse than a sitcom since the sims in sims 4 are more "dolls" than peoples in the missing of proper emotions and AI, if you don't full control then, them nothing gonna happen like playing doll, you can't just place then in the scenario and wait for then do what you want or even close, unless you are aimming for wako comedy or just see some sily or cute random moment, because they alone don't have much deeper as previous sims games making very important the player have a high level of control in the game.
Post edited by Ellessarr on
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Comments

  • ScobreScobre Posts: 20,665 Member
    I disagree the Sims 4 being a dollhouse. A true dollhouse game is described best by a former Sims Online employee here: https://medium.com/@mikesego/achievers-and-dollhousers-7a24fd84a49b Dollhouse players don't follow rules when playing their games. There is no winning or losing. It is like a sitcom game and achiever game I think. There are noticeable rabbit holes with the rocket ships and getting into the secret lots. There is probably more than that. I think the telescope would be considered a rabbit hole too.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    edited April 2015
    Scobre wrote: »
    I disagree the Sims 4 being a dollhouse. A true dollhouse game is described best by a former Sims Online employee here: https://medium.com/@mikesego/achievers-and-dollhousers-7a24fd84a49b Dollhouse players don't follow rules when playing their games. There is no winning or losing. It is like a sitcom game and achiever game I think. There are noticeable rabbit holes with the rocket ships and getting into the secret lots. There is probably more than that. I think the telescope would be considered a rabbit hole too.
    well i think was more dollhouse because the lack or emotions and ai, because at last in sitcom the actors have brains to work by themselfs and if you give then they role(traits) they will act in acord it, they not will be generic, unlike sims 4 :P, this is why i feel more like a dolhouse but you can be right.

    in a sitcom if i give a actor a role to be evil or lazy he will be evil or lazy while in sims 4 no they will keep being generic peoples role, this is a broken aspect in sims 4 because of how broken are the emotions, traits and AI.

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  • kremesch73kremesch73 Posts: 10,474 Member
    Ellessarr wrote: »
    well i think was more dollhouse because the lack or emotions and ai, because at last in sitcom the actors have brains to work by themselfs and if you give then they role(traits) they will act in acord it, they not will be generic, unlike sims 4 :P, this is why i feel more like a dolhouse but you can be right.

    in a sitcom if i give a actor a role to be evil or lazy he will be evil or lazy while in sims 4 no they will keep being generic peoples role, this is a broken aspect in sims 4 because of how broken are the emotions, traits and AI.

    I dunno about that. An evil shower doesn't really make a sim evil in S3. That's my take on it. In S4, at least a good sim will cry under the covers because her son is evil, etc.

    I'm not justifiying the emotions in S4 though. They are lacking, but they are also lacking in the other games. We perceive what we want to perceive, and that's about the gist of it.

    At least in S2, there were real reactions. When a sim got abducted, the entire family woke up and fretted over it. The same happened when a sim died. It could be annoying when you didn't want that to happen, but it happened nonetheless. When a sim flirted in front of their betrothed, they were slapped silly for it, and it took around a sim-week to repair the damage, if not more. Maybe S3 corrected this, but I remember when I first played it (base game and WA), S3 sims didn't react. I remember that was the reason I found them robotic and lifeless in comparison to S2.

    Even in S1, Sims reacted. They reacted in both S1 and S2 right from the get-go (from the base game onward).
    Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    kremesch73 wrote: »
    Ellessarr wrote: »
    well i think was more dollhouse because the lack or emotions and ai, because at last in sitcom the actors have brains to work by themselfs and if you give then they role(traits) they will act in acord it, they not will be generic, unlike sims 4 :P, this is why i feel more like a dolhouse but you can be right.

    in a sitcom if i give a actor a role to be evil or lazy he will be evil or lazy while in sims 4 no they will keep being generic peoples role, this is a broken aspect in sims 4 because of how broken are the emotions, traits and AI.

    I dunno about that. An evil shower doesn't really make a sim evil in S3. That's my take on it. In S4, at least a good sim will cry under the covers because her son is evil, etc.

    I'm not justifiying the emotions in S4 though. They are lacking, but they are also lacking in the other games. We perceive what we want to perceive, and that's about the gist of it.

    At least in S2, there were real reactions. When a sim got abducted, the entire family woke up and fretted over it. The same happened when a sim died. It could be annoying when you didn't want that to happen, but it happened nonetheless. When a sim flirted in front of their betrothed, they were slapped silly for it, and it took around a sim-week to repair the damage, if not more. Maybe S3 corrected this, but I remember when I first played it (base game and WA), S3 sims didn't react. I remember that was the reason I found them robotic and lifeless in comparison to S2.

    Even in S1, Sims reacted. They reacted in both S1 and S2 right from the get-go (from the base game onward).
    i really don't know but my sims all acts, toward many things i already see a lot of things happening in sims 3 which i never even dreamed to happen in sims 4, even now, one of my married sim saw his wife kissing another sim thanks to the "juice", she get drunk and well in sims 3 drink is really a trouble, then that guy no matter how i tried to calm him he just aways was angry and autonomous insulting her, i needed to control him to not make him break with her and he is not was dramatic, then with my most epic case the guy had dramatic trait and omg, he really was dramatic, he goes totally berzerker with his wife and the whole family broken was really a awesome event which i never gonna forget while in sims 4 w must be luck if one person of the family notice and even with that they can easy "forget" or be calm.

    man is really fun each time i try to make his wife(the last case) speak with the guy, he just arrrghhh!!!!, goes really furious toward her and already passed a sim week and he still anger and remembering her cheat, they not break because i not allowed i keep him at check to not break.
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  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited April 2015
    I agree with you 100% Ellessarr, good observation. The rabbitholes in Sims 3 never bothered me in the first place (I would have liked a well functioning restaurant, that's all, the rest of the RH offer more fluent gameplay imo).
    Sims 4 in fact is one big rabbithole fest, constantly banishing the sims you're not currently playing. It will only play the same way when you take all your sims with you to the active lot all the time.
    Sims 2 has this rabbithole system as well, but it's less obvious because there's no time continuation in the game. When you return home with your sim you can pick the other sim and spend the day. And a third one. It will be a very long day but at least you really played them all.
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  • VlaxitovVlaxitov Posts: 5,798 Member
    Sims to me should be sort of like advanced digipets. I want it to have the illusion of it being its own being yet still be in control. There's a serious lack of digipet like games out there. Banished for example isn't a tremendous game by any means but it did well despite its dated simplicity. That's because Banished has that digipet element and people like that. It feels meaningful to nurture a population of anything over a game over several generations and if its done well enough can easily make for addictive game play. That kind of thing packs a lot of bang when it comes to depth and immersion.
  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    I agree with you 100% Ellessarr, good observation. The rabbitholes in Sims 3 never bothered me in the first place (I would have liked a well functioning restaurant, that's all, the rest of the RH offer more fluent gameplay imo).
    Sims 4 in fact is one big rabbithole fest, constantly consuming the sims you're not currently playing. It will only play the same way when you take all your sim with you to the active lot all the time.
    Sims 2 has this rabbithole system as well, but it's less obvious because there's no time continuation in the game. When you return home with your sim you can pick the other sim and spend the day. And a third one. It will be a very long day but at least you really played them all.
    yeah if you stop to think a little and play with many sims in the same family 2 or 3 or more and play then separated then you will be more like playing a game full of rabbit holes.

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  • VlaxitovVlaxitov Posts: 5,798 Member
    edited April 2015
    I was also never bothered by rabbit holes.

    For me rabbit holes were just a way to manage time between multiple sims.

    My opinion holds that the difference comes down to the single VS multiple sim experience.

    In TS4 the rabbit hole situation is literally turned inside out. Everywhere your active sim isn't is a rabbit hole.

    So as long as your playing a single sim or maybe 2 sims joined at the hip you're golden, beyond that its severely lacking.

    Its perfect for the vicarious player, not so much for the bowl of digital sea monkeys player.

  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    Vlaxitov wrote: »
    I was also never bothered by rabbit holes.

    For me rabbit holes were just a way to manage time between multiple sims.

    My opinion holds that the difference comes down to the single VS multiple sim experience.

    In TS4 the rabbit hole situation is literally turned inside out. Everywhere your active sim isn't is a rabbit hole.

    So as long as your playing a single sim or maybe 2 sims joined at the hip your golden, beyond that its severely lacking.
    yeah and this highlight how sims 4 was really supposed to be a game to be played controlling a single sim, because while in a single sim or 2 you don't have too much trouble, with a large family you start to get plagued over it and while for som peoples this not a problem for others can be a little to a large this matter the level of immersion everyone want.

    well for me rabbit holes as they are used in sims 4 in the closed world are a really game break and something which i can't deal, this is why i'm playing sims 3, which actually the amount of playable area is much big tham sims 4 and i can manage large families much more easy and even don't lost the queue list which in sims 4 you lost when switching, even whe i switching between familes my action queue list still working fine in the previous family unlike sims 4 where everything is reseted and my family is just stand outside when switching between families(you can try to avoid that by choose the sim which is not at home and outside).
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  • VlaxitovVlaxitov Posts: 5,798 Member
    Ellessarr wrote: »
    Vlaxitov wrote: »
    I was also never bothered by rabbit holes.

    For me rabbit holes were just a way to manage time between multiple sims.

    My opinion holds that the difference comes down to the single VS multiple sim experience.

    In TS4 the rabbit hole situation is literally turned inside out. Everywhere your active sim isn't is a rabbit hole.

    So as long as your playing a single sim or maybe 2 sims joined at the hip your golden, beyond that its severely lacking.
    yeah and this highlight how sims 4 was really supposed to be a game to be played controlling a single sim, because while in a single sim or 2 you don't have too much trouble, with a large family you start to get plagued over it and while for som peoples this not a problem for others can be a little to a large this matter the level of immersion everyone want.

    well for me rabbit holes as they are used in sims 4 in the closed world are a really game break and something which i can't deal, this is why i'm playing sims 3, which actually the amount of playable area is much big tham sims 4 and i can manage large families much more easy and even don't lost the queue list which in sims 4 you lost when switching, even whe i switching between familes my action queue list still working fine in the previous family unlike sims 4 where everything is reseted and my family is just stand outside when switching between families(you can try to avoid that by choose the sim which is not at home and outside).

    You can even play as families as long as your playing as a vicarious player.

    When I say vicarious player I mean the kind of player that might have a family of sims but pretty much only relates to the perspective of one sim in their family and prioritizes that sim. I believe that became a common way for people to play during TS2, which I also believe is one reason TS3 didn't catch on for some people who liked TS2. Not for any other reason but because TS2 still did vicarious game play better.

  • Prink34320Prink34320 Posts: 5,078 Member
    I personally prefer not having the illusion my Sims are doing anything, and actually be able to do something with them, or see them performing tasks.
    Live your life to the fullest, don't wait for a miracle to happen, be the miracle to make things happen.
    Sometimes your creativity is limited where you use it most, but you can use those limitations to inspire new forms of creativity you may never have thought of beforehand.
  • Anemone7Anemone7 Posts: 3,950 Member
    edited April 2015
    The rocket in TS4 is a rabbit hole. Or the base game careers. So i don't get why they say there are none in TS4.
  • SenbreSenbre Posts: 997 Member
    edited April 2015
    Sims 4 base game already has lots of contents :) . Rabbit hole (building) is too much work for them.. You know "go to work" was not the only function of the rabbit holes (take classes, watch movies etc), and they will have to design the meshes, events etc
  • SenbreSenbre Posts: 997 Member
    >:) If you are willing to purchase dlc, probably they will open them one by one
  • Prink34320Prink34320 Posts: 5,078 Member
    marcellala wrote: »
    The rocket in TS4 is a rabbit hole. Or the base game careers. So i don't get why they say there are none in TS4.

    Well there wouldn't really be much to do inside such a small rocket so there'd be no point in it being fully interactive, but the tent is a rabbit hole and the outdoor public bathrooms are rabbit holes too but they aren't buildings.
    Live your life to the fullest, don't wait for a miracle to happen, be the miracle to make things happen.
    Sometimes your creativity is limited where you use it most, but you can use those limitations to inspire new forms of creativity you may never have thought of beforehand.
  • candy8candy8 Posts: 3,815 Member
    Oh please, people were begging to get rid of rabbit holes. I don't want them back if they did bring them back I would want them to be like GTW where the sims go to the moves and sit and look at a screen. THey could talk to each other while watching the movie. (but not to much) Are you listening EA.
  • king_of_simcity7king_of_simcity7 Posts: 25,082 Member
    I like Rabbit holes in TS3
    Simbourne
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  • DyrewitchDyrewitch Posts: 465 Member
    Hi so I'm gonna put my self under the gun here, but what does the term rabbit hole refer to in games?
  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    Dyrewitch wrote: »
    Hi so I'm gonna put my self under the gun here, but what does the term rabbit hole refer to in games?
    because is a place where you don't know where really exist and you can't see what is happening inside.
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  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    candy8 wrote: »
    Oh please, people were begging to get rid of rabbit holes. I don't want them back if they did bring them back I would want them to be like GTW where the sims go to the moves and sit and look at a screen. THey could talk to each other while watching the movie. (but not to much) Are you listening EA.
    sims 4 design is a mix where all the places are at same time rabbitholes and active places, what is matter is where you are trying to focus your game if you are focus in the cinema then the cinema will be active, if you change the focus then the cinema turn in a rabbit hole.

    if you control only and only one sim then this is not a trouble because you aways will be in the active zone but if you have more sims and don't make them be in the same places all the times then you get a lot of rabbit holes and like others peoples are pointing, i'm not even speaking about telescopes, camp tent which also are rabbit holes but are the obvious ones, the mechanic of sims 4 is build upon scenarios like sitcoms where only what is matter is where you are playing any other place don't matter.
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  • DyrewitchDyrewitch Posts: 465 Member
    Ahhh ok thanks :)
  • lovejess2lovejess2 Posts: 3,049 Member
    I feel this is going in too deep because this is just a game I mean one minute your interested the next your not. When people go "it doesn't have the heart" or "I feel it is just empty inside" I honestly roll my eyes. Sure we all want a good game and if you don't like the sims 4 no amount of DLC will fix that for you so what is the use of going to the forums with this in depth look at rabbit holes. I feel your time can be put to better use where it is possible to make a change because your "issues" go way further than missing content and honestly this is getting ridiculous.
  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    Dyrewitch wrote: »
    Ahhh ok thanks :)
    nop
    You can even play as families as long as your playing as a vicarious player.

    When I say vicarious player I mean the kind of player that might have a family of sims but pretty much only relates to the perspective of one sim in their family and prioritizes that sim. I believe that became a common way for people to play during TS2, which I also believe is one reason TS3 didn't catch on for some people who liked TS2. Not for any other reason but because TS2 still did vicarious game play better.
    hmmm i understand it, but i still feel it more like in one sense being "obligated to play like that rater than a option, due to the game mechanic, sims 2 have the "time frozen" style which at last for me s another game break and immersion break but is just a personnal taste, which helped for peoples be aple to play with others sims from the family aswell, while in sims 4 you don't have mechanic rater than move everyone in a block to the same place, while in sims 2 you play more focused in one sim you can have a chance to also play with the others aswell and don't full lose that time.

    well for me comparing sims 4 rabbit holes mechanics with sims 3 rabbit holes i somehow prefer sims 3 because at last in sims 3 you are not plagued to have the same sims in all the places or the stalker effect which you get in sims 4, that effect annoying me a lot.
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  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    lovejess2 wrote: »
    I feel this is going in too deep because this is just a game I mean one minute your interested the next your not. When people go "it doesn't have the heart" or "I feel it is just empty inside" I honestly roll my eyes. Sure we all want a good game and if you don't like the sims 4 no amount of DLC will fix that for you so what is the use of going to the forums with this in depth look at rabbit holes. I feel your time can be put to better use where it is possible to make a change because your "issues" go way further than missing content and honestly this is getting ridiculous.
    because part or even all the issue can be fixed or changed what matter is if the dev team want or no have the trouble to change.

    and is more to speak about aspects of the game and more because if you are a gamer or love a type of game then things go much more deep than just a "game", while normally you look to games and say "its just a game" for others peoples this can means "life" in many ways,

    we have peoples like the "farmers" which live from farm something from the game to sell, we have peoples which use a game as a way to escape from a hard reality or peoples which diseases which see the game as a way forget about it or even as a way to treat it and things like that, then normally while we see games "just a games" without any deep, this don't means to be full true in general, the most important and general rule is each person is a world and is really hard try to understand peoples, i'm a good exemple for me is hard to understand how many peoples even being aware of game bugs and all the things still crazy asking for more payed content than free from a logical point this don't make sense but this is "being human" we really don't make sense and we need to try to live with that.
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  • VlaxitovVlaxitov Posts: 5,798 Member
    edited April 2015
    candy8 wrote: »
    Oh please, people were begging to get rid of rabbit holes. I don't want them back if they did bring them back I would want them to be like GTW where the sims go to the moves and sit and look at a screen. THey could talk to each other while watching the movie. (but not to much) Are you listening EA.

    Only again, if you're even slightly paying attention, they didn't get rid of rabbit holes. They just made everywhere you're not playing your active sim a rabbit hold instead. Overall TS4 is more rabbit holy than TS3 could have ever dreamed to be.

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