Have you ever wondered... «12...Next Go

brainybee

Why our sims do the things they do? Or if something we players are experiencing is a bug or just the way the new Sims 4 engine is supposed to work? Sometimes "bugs" can be fixed by just changing a minor thing (like turning a door around or not placing a freestanding sink in a kitchen). Are you wondering (like me) what is actually possible in Sims 4? Are you confused by all the "tech talk" but want to understand how to make things work in your game a little better? Then this thread is for you! We have a few tech savvy simmers, as well as some great quotes from Sim Gurus such as Max, Marion, Euigi and Holmes to help us understand how to make our games the best they can be and what to look forward to in the future. This isn't a feedback thread for what we want devs to change, and we won't be helping anyone with tech problems, as there are other places for that.

brainybee

For instance, here is what SimGuruMax said about how sims eat and drink:

We made it take longer for Sims to eat and drink intentionally in order to encourage more situations where the Sims would be multitasking realistically. A great example is the bar - it looks a lot better if Sims get a drink and then sit down and drink it for a while while chatting. This prolongs the amount of time that the Sim is in this perfect "being at the bar" context without having to break up the experience by, say, getting another drink.

We abstract time a lot in the Sims. Translation from real-time to game-time is hard - there are lots of boring parts IRL and you probably don't want to translate those parts but you want the interesting things to take longer than they normally would because what gamer wouldn't want to prolong a great activity? For example, having the Sim arrive at the bar, grab a drink, sit down and chat for an hour and then using the restroom is an abstraction for the Sim getting a drink, chatting, using the restroom, chatting, getting a drink, chatting, using the restroom, then chatting again, which would feel frustrating and weird in the game world.

Sometimes this leads to hour-long showers and three-hour long meals, but a Sim's day is naturally much shorter than a real day and we need to reduce the number of activities that happen to a representative set. Sometimes fun trumps realism and its hard to take The Sims 4 clock too seriously - its really just a rough marker of the passage of time.

http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p8

brainybee

@Jules1111
@Seamoan
@Cyron43
@blewis823
@Terrylin

Cyron43

Thanks @brainybee. I will join here later.

Simulator4

I just play. Never really wondered why they do the things they do. Sounds interesting though.

Scobre

Yeah the time management of the Sims 4 annoys me along with the linear tasks that have punishments if not completed. How I deal with my Sims being dumb and eating slow and being bad parents is mods right now. I know the Gurus want us to watch our Sims more, so why they dumbed them down, but when I have to micro manage a full family of eight, how the Sims 4 is programmed is more of a hindrance then anything.

blewis823

Thanks brainybee. I will follow and post as situations pop up in my game.

brainybee

Here's a cool quote from SimGuru Max about how the game is put together:

We built a data-driven interaction system for TS4. In general, the gameplay engineers don't script content anymore - we script new features and then integrate them into our data driven architecture, making them available to our tuning system. New buffs and traits can be added entirely through tuning, for example. Thats pretty cool, but obvious. We took it further. New objects and interactions can be added entirely through tuning (assuming the model and animation content is available). New NPCs can be added if they are simple like the Maid or Bartender. New situations can be added if they conform to one of our situation templates, which have to be scripted but then can be reused across multiple very different situations (situations control everything from parties and weddings to how Sims in your neighborhood behave and even venues).

This has contributed substantially to our ability to add new content to the game quickly and also is one of the chief reasons, I believe, why TS4 is so stable - all interactions are going through a shared, generic pipeline and so fixing any bug fixes it in all interactions. This is not with out its costs, though, as it does make it much harder to make the first of something because you have to design it within the constraints of the system. Ad-hoc implementations are not only discouraged, they are rendered virtually impossible in our architecture. This further feeds into why we have a system-based approach to fleshing out the game.


http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p8

Terrylin

brainybee wrote: »

For instance, here is what SimGuruMax said about how sims eat and drink:

We made it take longer for Sims to eat and drink intentionally in order to encourage more situations where the Sims would be multitasking realistically. A great example is the bar - it looks a lot better if Sims get a drink and then sit down and drink it for a while while chatting. This prolongs the amount of time that the Sim is in this perfect "being at the bar" context without having to break up the experience by, say, getting another drink.

We abstract time a lot in the Sims. Translation from real-time to game-time is hard - there are lots of boring parts IRL and you probably don't want to translate those parts but you want the interesting things to take longer than they normally would because what gamer wouldn't want to prolong a great activity? For example, having the Sim arrive at the bar, grab a drink, sit down and chat for an hour and then using the restroom is an abstraction for the Sim getting a drink, chatting, using the restroom, chatting, getting a drink, chatting, using the restroom, then chatting again, which would feel frustrating and weird in the game world.

Sometimes this leads to hour-long showers and three-hour long meals, but a Sim's day is naturally much shorter than a real day and we need to reduce the number of activities that happen to a representative set. Sometimes fun trumps realism and its hard to take The Sims 4 clock too seriously - its really just a rough marker of the passage of time.

http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p8

This is a very good place for me to start for I have issues with a single sim taking 1+ hour to eat or shower. Can you explain why they thought this works? With multitasking I can understand the eating longer but a shower that takes longer than 30 minutes is to much IMHO.

brainybee

Here SimGuru Max explains our sim's reactions to things:

We have a system called Broadcasters that alert nearby Sims of interesting events. These events include things like fire, infidelity, and streaking Sims. I am positive that this system works in most cases, but I have seen edge cases where Sims fail to respond.

These broadcasters affect Sims by pushing interactions on them, which then add statistics to the Sim, which then trigger buffs like Jealous. If the Sim is already busy, they might miss the interaction as those interactions can time-out or get canceled by pressure (like from user-directed interactions). There may be some cases where we need to protect these interactions more to make them run more reliably, such as jealousy - it is really important that Sims acknowledge stuff like this and it looks very robotic when they are oblivious. There may be other cases where the broadcaster area-of-effect is insufficient for your particular situation or lot layout - again, we can't account for every possible house or situation you can make in our game, so there are going to be cases that never came up in our testing.

I can say that we will probably continue to add new sources for these Broadcasters as we add content, and that will put pressure on testing the system and improving it as we continue to develop TS4. As usual, if you have a specific use-case and can provide a screenshot or very detailed description, this will help us understand the issue and make it more likely to get fixed.


http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p5

brainybee

SimGuru Max on rooms - this *may* explain some situations that are coming up in your game that you weren't expecting:

Here is a fun fact - we don't really have the notion of Rooms anymore on TS4. We had this on TS3 and we felt that it ultimately added a lot of complexity without giving much in return because we would often mischaracterize larger rooms or rooms with weird mixtures of objects. In our quest to reduce unnecessary complexity, we decided to avoid implementing Rooms until we had a compelling reason to do so. One never really came up, so we never did.

I think we will end up implementing Rooms on TS4 eventually (as usual, no promises). We can use some marquee objects like the Fridge, Stove, and Toilet to tag certain spaces with room identity. It would not be too hard to discourage Sims from using sinks that are in a "bathroom," meaning ones within line-of-sight of a toilet. We could also use this tech for many other uses, such as to discourage Sims from socializing in bathrooms. We would avoid creating some kind of room assignment UI because it would be awkward and we really have the data we need to figure this out in almost all cases, even if the answer is "multi-purpose room."

http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p8

brainybee

Sometimes this leads to hour-long showers and three-hour long meals, but a Sim's day is naturally much shorter than a real day and we need to reduce the number of activities that happen to a representative set. Sometimes fun trumps realism and its hard to take The Sims 4 clock too seriously - its really just a rough marker of the passage of time.

I'm thinking he meant you shouldn't take time too seriously @Terrylin?

Terrylin

brainybee wrote: »

b]Sometimes this leads to hour-long showers[/b] and three-hour long meals, but a Sim's day is naturally much shorter than a real day and we need to reduce the number of activities that happen to a representative set. Sometimes fun trumps realism and its hard to take The Sims 4 clock too seriously - its really just a rough marker of the passage of time.

I'm thinking he meant you shouldn't take time too seriously?

I imagine he did but the fact still remains that the time management is off when your sim doesn't have time to eat and shower and not be late for work. For example. So it does seriously effect game play when time management is implemented in this way.

JULES1111

brainybee wrote: »

Here SimGuru Max explains our sim's reactions to things:

We have a system called Broadcasters that alert nearby Sims of interesting events. These events include things like fire, infidelity, and streaking Sims. I am positive that this system works in most cases, but I have seen edge cases where Sims fail to respond.

These broadcasters affect Sims by pushing interactions on them, which then add statistics to the Sim, which then trigger buffs like Jealous. If the Sim is already busy, they might miss the interaction as those interactions can time-out or get canceled by pressure (like from user-directed interactions). There may be some cases where we need to protect these interactions more to make them run more reliably, such as jealousy - it is really important that Sims acknowledge stuff like this and it looks very robotic when they are oblivious. There may be other cases where the broadcaster area-of-effect is insufficient for your particular situation or lot layout - again, we can't account for every possible house or situation you can make in our game, so there are going to be cases that never came up in our testing.

I can say that we will probably continue to add new sources for these Broadcasters as we add content, and that will put pressure on testing the system and improving it as we continue to develop TS4. As usual, if you have a specific use-case and can provide a screenshot or very detailed description, this will help us understand the issue and make it more likely to get fixed.


http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p5

He has seen edge cases?? Who does he think he's fooling? Since this things release people have been complaining their Sims don't react. I'm so glad he is positive it works, I guess that means it will never be fixed.

JULES1111

brainybee wrote: »

Sometimes this leads to hour-long showers and three-hour long meals, but a Sim's day is naturally much shorter than a real day and we need to reduce the number of activities that happen to a representative set. Sometimes fun trumps realism and its hard to take The Sims 4 clock too seriously - its really just a rough marker of the passage of time.

I'm thinking he meant you shouldn't take time too seriously @Terrylin?

Fun trumps realism?? So it is fun watching your sim shower for a hour? So we shouldn't take time seriously, yet they call it a time management game? Am I the only one lost here?

MasonGamer

Probably is, When I watch let's play on youtube I see so many saying "this is a bug" uh no your trash can is facing the wrong way.

Terrylin

brainybee wrote: »

SimGuru Max on rooms - this *may* explain some situations that are coming up in your game that you weren't expecting:

Here is a fun fact - we don't really have the notion of Rooms anymore on TS4. We had this on TS3 and we felt that it ultimately added a lot of complexity without giving much in return because we would often mischaracterize larger rooms or rooms with weird mixtures of objects. In our quest to reduce unnecessary complexity, we decided to avoid implementing Rooms until we had a compelling reason to do so. One never really came up, so we never did.

I think we will end up implementing Rooms on TS4 eventually (as usual, no promises). We can use some marquee objects like the Fridge, Stove, and Toilet to tag certain spaces with room identity. It would not be too hard to discourage Sims from using sinks that are in a "bathroom," meaning ones within line-of-sight of a toilet. We could also use this tech for many other uses, such as to discourage Sims from socializing in bathrooms. We would avoid creating some kind of room assignment UI because it would be awkward and we really have the data we need to figure this out in almost all cases, even if the answer is "multi-purpose room."

http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p8

That was the one I was looking for! Thank you for finding it! I thought it was farther along than that.

This is what I was referring to but that they use the tools they already have in build mode for venues. The same could work for rooms I would think!?
He says it is possible but then he says it would be awkward? Eating in the bathroom while a sim is taking an Angry poop is awkward too!

Cyron43

Terrylin wrote: »

brainybee wrote: »

SimGuru Max on rooms - this *may* explain some situations that are coming up in your game that you weren't expecting:

Here is a fun fact - we don't really have the notion of Rooms anymore on TS4. We had this on TS3 and we felt that it ultimately added a lot of complexity without giving much in return because we would often mischaracterize larger rooms or rooms with weird mixtures of objects. In our quest to reduce unnecessary complexity, we decided to avoid implementing Rooms until we had a compelling reason to do so. One never really came up, so we never did.

I think we will end up implementing Rooms on TS4 eventually (as usual, no promises). We can use some marquee objects like the Fridge, Stove, and Toilet to tag certain spaces with room identity. It would not be too hard to discourage Sims from using sinks that are in a "bathroom," meaning ones within line-of-sight of a toilet. We could also use this tech for many other uses, such as to discourage Sims from socializing in bathrooms. We would avoid creating some kind of room assignment UI because it would be awkward and we really have the data we need to figure this out in almost all cases, even if the answer is "multi-purpose room."

http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/782859/simulation-tech-talk/p8

That was the one I was looking for! Thank you for finding it! I thought it was farther along than that.

This is what I was referring to but that they use the tools they already have in build mode for venues. The same could work for rooms I would think!?
He says it is possible but then he says it would be awkward? Eating in the bathroom while a sim is taking an Angry poop is awkward too!

In regards to that and the door bug ( Sims knocking at the door from inside) I repeat my post from the other thread here.
Okay got it (from SimGuruMax) but anyway the game MUST differ between outside and inside in some way even if it is by querying some object like an outside plant but honestly doing such an object query costs more processor cycles than a simple get from a room enumeration property. Also those object lists which hold information about which object represents which room eats up memory. I would reconsider that design if I were among their team.

EDIT: And this post of mine:
I'm back from lunch and that word "awkward" from SimGuruMax was echoing in my head the whole time. Does he mean too awkward for us or too awkward for them?
Now picture this: You are in build mode and you dragged all walls. Next you click on any room, a list pops up from which you can choose what kind of room it's supposed to be. When you are done you go back to live mode but a message pops up, telling you there is one uncategorized room while showing you that room with a red boundary box. You click on it and choose a room category and then you go back to live mode.
Would that be to awkward for a Simmer? Hands up!

brainybee

Terrylin wrote: »

He says it is possible but then he says it would be awkward? Eating in the bathroom while a sim is taking an Angry poop is awkward too!

You made me spit out my drink!

TOLKIEN

I think they need to strengthen the "broadcasters" still, it often feels like each Sim is in their own little world unless their sitting around multitasking with each other.

Cyron43

TOLKIEN wrote: »

I think they need to strengthen the "broadcasters" still, it often feels like each Sim is in their own little world unless their sitting around multitasking with each other.

Good idea.
Another developer?

brainybee

TOLKIEN wrote: »

I think they need to strengthen the "broadcasters" still, it often feels like each Sim is in their own little world unless their sitting around multitasking with each other.

This may be a left-over from when the game was supposed to be online.

Cyron43

brainybee wrote: »

TOLKIEN wrote: »

I think they need to strengthen the "broadcasters" still, it often feels like each Sim is in their own little world unless their sitting around multitasking with each other.

This may be a left-over from when the game was supposed to be online.

Either that or the event broadcast (which builds a kind of action/reaction network) gets blown out of proportions but that's just a rough guess. Idk how much event driven the code is.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SpradaciSproj

JULES1111 wrote: »

He has seen edge cases?? Who does he think he's fooling? Since this things release people have been complaining their Sims don't react. I'm so glad he is positive it works, I guess that means it will never be fixed.

and

JULES1111 wrote: »

Fun trumps realism?? So it is fun watching your sim shower for a hour? So we shouldn't take time seriously, yet they call it a time management game? Am I the only one lost here?

I feel exactly as you do.

v12creator

My sims totally react and a lot in Thesims4, i could feel the great diference when compared to Thesims3 by the first time i played it. Trough i still feel it is not as good as Thesims2, it is good enough in my point of view.