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Speculation: What Can and Cannot be Modded

ZerbuZerbu Posts: 3,457 Member
edited August 2014 in General Mods Discussion
Based on the list of removed features (http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/759976/a-running-list-of-78-yes-really-78-officially-confirmed-missing-crippled-base-features/p1) I have created a list of what features should be easily moddable. Of course, this is just speculation, as we do not know exactly how modding in The Sims 4 will work yet. I'm basing it on a mixture of what we know, and what was possible in The Sims 3.

Legend:
RED - Probably No
GREEN - Probably Yes
BROWN - Probably Yes, but very complicated (note: I judge how "complicated" it is based on how much skill is needed to make it, not necessarily how long it will take)
PURPLE - Probably Yes, but may have to be implemented in a "hacky" way ie not consistent with the rest of the game's coding.
BLUE - Unknown

Once again, just speculation, none of this is confirmed.

- Create a Style - nope, you'll have to stick with CC (try my Caster tool! [/shamelessselfpromotion])
- Editing public spaces - no!
- Nursery items - since babies are objects and not their own Sims, this will most likely not be possible.
- Normal careers - modding careers has always been possible, but it's unknown if it will be possible in The Sims 4 due to all the goals and additional features.
- Pools - no!
- Story progression - yes, this will be fairly simple as all it requires is updating variables attached to Sims.
- Terrain tools - no!
- Toddlers - no!
- Placing new lots - no!
- Individual foundations - no!
- Non-object babies - no!
- Non-flat terrain - no!
- More floors - possibly, depends on how the number of floors is coded into the game.
- More lots per world - not really an issue as having more worlds makes up for it.
- Bigger lots - no!
- No loading screens - no!
- Smaller teens - no!
- Acne - possibly through the use of CC, but very complicated.
- Aliens - possible, but maybe not as a regular "occult" in the game's programming.
- Animated hair - no!
- Aspiration failures - yes!
- Babysitters - Yes, but maybe not as in actual "service", it depends on how easily moddable the services are.
- Bartender - Yes, but maybe not as an "NPC" in the game's code, it would be more like the NPCs that come with premium content in The Sims 3 store.
- Basements - no!
- Bookstores - if buying books are possible, then bookstores should be possible, though if it involves an NPC then they would be more like a premium store content NPC.
- Burglars - yes, although if an NPC, they will act more like store premium content NPCs. I'm not putting this in purple though, as there's also the option of using Sims in the Criminal career.
- Cars - possible, but it would require a very skilled CC creator, and if it involves animations, it will be oh the more harder.
- Cemeteries - I'm not really sure about this one, to be honest.
- Cinemas - Yes, through use of scripted objects, you could make a cinema that's a lot like the one from The Sims 3 Store.
- Cleaning skill - possibly, but would be very complicated as you'd have to update practically all the clean up interactions, and assuming adding skills is as hard as The Sims 3, that's bad enough as it is.
- Clothes shopping - possible, but it would work a lot like the shops in The Sims 3 Into the Future. Entering CAS and assigning outfits to an object shouldn't be hard (it involves the mod creating a fake Sim, putting them in CAS then deleting them afterwards) but the complicated part would be actually signifying which outfits are being sold.
- Colour wheel - no!
- Comfort needs - no, but moodlets make up for this.
- Curfew - it's not something I'd personally want, but for those who do, it should be possible.
- Customizing multi-tone hair colour - no!
- Dinner proposals - possible, but would require very complicated custom animations.
- Diseases or illnesses - yes, in fact this was already done in The Sims 3 by Twallan before they came in Seasons. ;)
- Dreams - yes (assuming this means what I think it does)!
- Environment needs - we already technically have them, as moodlets.
- Eyelash slider - no!
- Favourites - I'm not really sure about this one.
- Fears - it should be possible, but would be its own feature completely independent from whims.
- Full face make-up - it should be possible using CC.
- Garage doors - if it's as complicated as in previous games, probably not, though a less advanced one should be possible.
- Gardeners - possible, but may not be as a service in the game's code. It might also be possible to make use of the community lot gardener's code, but there's no way of telling at the moment.
- Ghosts - no!
- Grocery stores - yes, but same as bookstores, the NPC will be more like store premium content NPCs.
- Male body hair - already done ;)
- Move objects cheat - no!
- Newspapers - possible, but would require a lot of custom animations.
- Opacity slider for makeup - no!
- Party invitations from other Sims - yes, this could be a whole new feature.
- Private schools - probably tied to career modding, which I mentioned above. If career modding is possible and can be used to make schools, then the features of private school should be possible.
- Rabbitholes - no, though most people hate them anyway.
- Random deaths - the only way this would not be possible is if script modding itself wasn't possible or was extremely limited!
- Repairmen - yes, but may not be a normal service under the game's code.
- Repo man - possible, though not something I'd personally want. The new system works way better, in my opinion.
- Restaurants - yes, but the NPCs may work like store premium content NPCs. If a lot of time and effort is put in, there could potentially be a mod to bring back TS2-style restaurants, although it's likely those would be added in an expansion pack anwyay.
- Skin slider - no!
- Swimming/swimwear - well, swimwear would be possible as CC, but it would be useless...
- Tragic clown/social bunny - yes, but both may be more like a store premium content NPC.
- Watching Sims go to work/school - no! Open careers, though... ;)
- Online exchange - obviously not, since modders don't control the website, lol!
- Will wright - sorry, mods can't bring back Will Wright.
- Zodiac signs - possibly, though they wouldn't be as user friendly as previous games. Also, it largely depends on how romance is coded.

Remember that The Sims 4 is set up with modders in mind. That could be that they took NPCs and services into consideration, so we might not have to rely on workarounds.
Post edited by Zerbu on

Comments

  • OreoLissOreoLiss Posts: 4 New Member
    <3 Perfecto
  • JULES1111JULES1111 Posts: 4,489 Member
    Nice job Zerbu!!
  • deibreakdeibreak Posts: 386 Member
    This is a really great list! Your broke it down very nicely. :smiley:
  • HenekHenek Posts: 36 Member
    edited August 2014
    I'd say that this is a fairly good estimate of what probably can and can't be done. But given the information that the scripting is done in python we have three possible scenarios:

    A ) The game is written in another language (probably C++) and the python scripts are seperate. In this case many of the things in the game would probably not be moddable, similar to Sims 2.

    B ) The game logic is written in python but not the interface and build mode or CAS. In this case any gameplay mods that could be created for Sims 3 could be made (to some extent), but not the ones involving UI and CAS (though not very commen for Sims 3 anyway).

    C ) (Almost) everything is written in python. In this case everything that could be done in Sims 3 can be done here, which includes almost anything imaginable (you could technically do anything in Sims 3 as all code could be altered through core mods).

    Scenario C is highly unlikely in my oppinion and it could probably be either one of A and B. All of these scenarios would drastically alter the list in this thread as what might be possible varies drastically.
  • jtravers88jtravers88 Posts: 591 Member
    Your correct that C) is not probable. Having everything written in Python would be way to slow. With Sims 3, a lot of the game logic was packaged in dlls. Those dlls were assemblies that could be interpreted. So I could read all that code in C++ or C#. I could even copy the code into Visual Studio and recompile it. This was MUCH better than Sims 2, where it was barbaric in comparison, having to use a 'sim' language which was quite a bit like writing in assembly language.

    The big question for me, prior to the game's release, is whether they will continue to include the code in dlls that can be interpreted. Most dlls today can not be loaded into reflector or ilspy. With all the disappointments about things not being included in the base game, it wouldn't surprise me if they also nerf the ability to interpret the code. No ilasm, ildasm, reflector etc...

    That would be bad for me, Twallan (had he not retired), and EA. Because modding is what keeps the interest up in the Sims over a period of years. But are they smart enough to realize that? At this point, no family tree?, I just don't know.
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    edited August 2014
    Hmm, I would have to disagree on several of these, particularly your definite "no"s in cases where we have no information yet about scripting and the file formats involved.

    What exactly do you know that I don't know that makes you say no to these? :pensive:
    • Toddlers (I think it's likely POSSIBLE, just too much work :p It's just models, animations and scripts.)
    • Non-object babies (see above)
    • Eyelash slider (Why not? We have custom sliders in TS3. Depends, I guess, on whether they are modeled with a "bone". Do you know that they aren't?)
    • Smaller teens (Why not? Custom sliders plus scripted sim growth, like Consort's mod for TS3: http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=490536 I'd rate this an "almost certainly". )
    • Watching Sims go to work/school (Don't see any reason to believe in principle that a script mod couldn't do this...)
    • Garage doors (Cmomoney made animated windows that could be opened by a sim for TS3. Don't see any reason this couldn't be done.)

    On service sims, note that there were some excellent mods creating new service sims for TS3, mostly by Douglas Veiga.

    As for these: The world structure is clearly very different from TS3, and since we don't know what it is, we really can't say whether they're possible or not. You may not have been around at the time, but there was a modder working on a world editor for TS3 before the official one was announced; he left the community around then, but he might have succeeded. And TS4 worlds look to me much simpler than TS3 worlds. There IS non-flat terrain outside the playable area in TS4, so in principal, terrain height manipulation is possible, though likely not in-game. So I would rate all these as "we don't have enough information yet".
    • Editing public spaces
    • Bigger lots - We had custom lot sizes in TS3; there was a hard max, but we have no idea if that's back or not.
    • Terrain tools
    • Non-flat terrain
    • Placing new lots
  • HenekHenek Posts: 36 Member
    What I have seen looking through the CAS Demo files, I am pretty certain that some parts of the game is written in C++ (and not C#). If the game is indeed written in C++ then disasembling the code will not be possible as it was with Sims 3 (and the quirk in mono that allowed scripting mods to be so powerful will not be there anyway). My conclusion thus far is that modding will not be as powerful as in Sims 3, but how powerful it will be is still completely unknown.

    The problem with adding modding support is that you have to decide what the to expose to the modder. My guess though is that they use scripts for how things and sims behaive and as a result this becomes a moddable thing, but that means that anything that they do not feel needs to be seperate form the engine will be unaccessable to modding, similar to Sims 2. My biggest fear is that the lists of Traits, Aspirations, etc. will be hard-coded as in Sims 3 and no new ones can be added.

    But no point in being discuraged this early.
  • jtravers88jtravers88 Posts: 591 Member
    edited August 2014
    You won't find a modder that implements Toddlers. Eyelashes, I don't like fan eyelashes but don't really care. They have admitted they didn't want to make the animations for a smaller skeleton and rig. So a custom slider might not work with their current animation process, we just don't know. And how can you watch a sim go to school with 5 divided areas that require loading screens?

    Let's hope they open up modding, give us all the game code, and ways to use Python to enter into any class and procedure we want to!

    Edit: Duh, you weren't talking to me, sorry, but I'll leave my thoughts on some of those items anyway.
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    jtravers88 wrote: »
    You won't find a modder that implements Toddlers.

    Probably true ;)
    jtravers88 wrote: »
    They have admitted they didn't want to make the animations for a smaller skeleton and rig. So a custom slider might not work with their current animation process, we just don't know.

    It didn't "work" with TS3 animations either, but that didn't stop modders from developing and players from using height sliders ;) And I don't think animations are too different, since we already have a couple of custom ones, and people working on tools. Took YEARS for animations to be understood and tools developed for TS3, but this time we have a good start pre-release.
    jtravers88 wrote: »
    And how can you watch a sim go to school with 5 divided areas that require loading screens?

    I guess it depends what you mean by "watching them go to school", but you could potentially watch them walk out of the neighborhood, or watch them walk into a rabbithole (i.e. a big mesh, which is all they are) placed in the world or on the edge of another lot. Remember, this isn't TS2; you don't load when you LEAVE your lot, you can walk freely around the world between lots. You only load when you ENTER a different lot.

    As to whether it's possible to do what I suggested, I would put that in the "we don't know" category, not the "no" category.
    jtravers88 wrote: »
    Let's hope they open up modding, give us all the game code, and ways to use Python to enter into any class and procedure we want to!

    Amen, brother :D

  • gsmythegsmythe Posts: 8 New Member
    This thread seems to be more about fixing than modding. The referenced thread is about all the things that don't work and this one is about the grim outlook on the feasibility of fixing it to ts3 standards. In previous iterations of this series, modding was typically about enhancements rather than re-implementing features of the older versions. I'm not sure if the op is making a weak attempt to promote the game or is elaborating on the flaws of the referenced thread.
  • DCExplorerDCExplorer Posts: 724 Member
    Even though I knew it was a "when pigs fly" scenario, just seeing loading screens and color wheel being lit up with a big red no, made me die a little inside :(
  • Shimrod101Shimrod101 Posts: 304 Member
    The Grimreefer Core mod for The Sims Medieval had a function for changing the color on objects: furniture, clutter stuff, the building shells, etc. You clicked directly on the object in live mode, there was a pie menu "set color" or whatever, and then a color palette came up and you could set a new color for the object. So I think something similar can be implemented in Sims4, I don't know how to do it myself though.
  • velocitygrassvelocitygrass Posts: 103 Member
    I took a look at the color tint code in Grim's core mod and it uses an existing function for game objects. This is only really used in the game for the plumbob, floor switches, and holo plants, so if we're unlucky they won't have it in Sims 4 (or it's in inaccessible code).

    If it's available this could be great for single color/tint objects. Though we'd have to see if it saves between sessions and when saving/sharing lots or rooms.
  • AshkevronAshkevron Posts: 579 Member
    what about the mosaic censor thingie....can that be modded out?
  • velocitygrassvelocitygrass Posts: 103 Member
    There is censor data even in the demo. I would try creating a mod, but I don't think a censor appears anywhere in the demo, so I wouldn't be able to test it.

    But so far the censor has always been removed as one of the first available mods. I doubt it will be different this time.
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    But so far the censor has always been removed as one of the first available mods. I doubt it will be different this time.

    Yeah, there seem to be a lot of people around who know how to handle pixel shaders. I expect the same is true about the white outline around the selected sim or object, which a lot of folks don't like... must also be a pixel shader and similarly zappable.
  • AshkevronAshkevron Posts: 579 Member
    thanks for that comment Velocity, I had several of your mods for Sims 3...so nice to see a familiar name here for Sims 4
  • velocitygrassvelocitygrass Posts: 103 Member
    I actually meant settings in the DATA resources, not the shaders (though they are an additional way to zap them).

    They were very nice this time and there is a single resource for censor settings and a single resource for global hightlight settings (which I hope is the white outline). So with a bit of luck both of these mods will not need to be updated for every patch (and will be significantly smaller). But this is just speculation from looking at setting names.
  • Maxwell_CollinsMaxwell_Collins Posts: 143 Member
    I believe I know what might fix the issue of things that can't be modded. If EA just gives in and releases full mod support, it would make modding the game a relative pushover. I actually talked about this in my Theorycrafting Thread in the General Discussion. However, since there is a degree of online content, I believe that adding a mod section to the Exchange, making the modding process a whole lot easier and more accessible, will really push the sales. Think of Skyrim and how easily it was to create an absolutely insane overhaul. I think the Sims 4 can pull off the modding support, even if it isn't in this patch.
    My YouTube Channel
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  • HenekHenek Posts: 36 Member
    As I just looked through some of the DATA resources in the CAS Demo I am fairly sure that creating custom careers is both easy and will not conflict easily. This does not mean that it wont be a lot of work actually making the career as there are quite a lot of stuff to add (I have not looked in depth on what is needed though). And when it comes to custom schools, those are just careers for younger sims, the hard part is to actually change the careers, so depends on the scripting capabilities.
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    edited August 2014
    I actually meant settings in the DATA resources, not the shaders (though they are an additional way to zap them).

    They were very nice this time and there is a single resource for censor settings and a single resource for global hightlight settings (which I hope is the white outline). So with a bit of luck both of these mods will not need to be updated for every patch (and will be significantly smaller). But this is just speculation from looking at setting names.

    Oooh :) That is good news.
    I believe I know what might fix the issue of things that can't be modded. If EA just gives in and releases full mod support, it would make modding the game a relative pushover. I actually talked about this in my Theorycrafting Thread in the General Discussion. However, since there is a degree of online content, I believe that adding a mod section to the Exchange, making the modding process a whole lot easier and more accessible, will really push the sales. Think of Skyrim and how easily it was to create an absolutely insane overhaul. I think the Sims 4 can pull off the modding support, even if it isn't in this patch.

    I'm fairly certain that EA won't ever host gameplay mods. They won't want to be responsible for a mod totally screwing up the game. Skyrim gets out of it by letting Steam do the hosting :pensive: Previous Elder Scrolls and other bethsoft games let community sites do all the hosting, just like TS3 and previous Sims games with respect to "mods" which went beyond "custom content".

    But it's really no problem. Custom Content creators like to be able to select where they're hosted, and downloaders like to be able to select a reputable source. If it's all tossed in together with no moderation, it's much easier for inexperienced mod users to make bad choices.

    I also don't think that EA will EVER release a full on modding toolset like Bethesda does. They've never expressed the slightest interest in doing that. Maybe a handful of limited tools like Body Shop and Homecrafter and CAW, down the line... or maybe not. However, releasing the full documentation for their file formats will greatly speed up the rate at which community mod tools come online.

    I can understand why, by the way. There's an important difference between Skyrim and the Sims: Skyrim players are mostly GAMERS. Proportionally speaking, more are at least somewhat technically knowledgable and are not freaked out by technical problems. Mods can and will sometimes bring technical problems, unless you are very fussy about your sources, and even such fussiness requires a fair amount of knowledge to be able to discriminate. A far larger proportion of sims players play ONLY sims games and have very little technical expertise. It's not a bad thing; just a function of the different demographics the games attract.

    And... EA beefing up its mod support is not going to "fix the issue of things that can't be modded". Skyrim ALSO has things that can't be modded. What is in that category depends on the architecture of the program, which has already been set, and which was designed with EA's needs in mind and not the needs of modders.
  • WildeatheartWildeatheart Posts: 1,785 Member
    That's good news then, if a Story Progression mod can be made for The Sims 4 (fingers crossed one similar to nraas's.)
    That's my main worry because I like to do generational playing.
    tumblr_static_b95t53zz25sskgcso8s48cksw.jpg
  • rudy8292rudy8292 Posts: 3,410 Member
    I hope people can mod that outlining out when it comes to hovering sims and objects. It annoys me.
  • NoahBangsNoahBangs Posts: 91 Member
    I beg to differ on pools. What's wrong with creating a pool of glowing toxic waste?
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