This site has entered read-only mode as of July 18th. The new Forums.EA.com are now live.

🧲 New Attraction System? 🧲

Comments

  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited October 2023
    Mostly responding to @EnRoute 's comment

    I admit that you pushed me a little out of my comfort zone with this topic, but if I understand correctly, your "vision" is quite similar to that I've talked about here in my post. You essentially want to merge the social differences with the attraction system I suggested in this discussion, so that the attractive sims get a high popularity boost due to their attractiveness, and by this forming a kind of "ranking" between the characters, which would also affect the formation of friendships/relationships in the game.

    It's true I didn't delve into this topic that deeply, but when I proposed here that kind of "1-10" attractiveness, I wasn't against such extremes either. Although as you said, your version is more suitable for the high school, and college years, but overall I like the core idea you described.
    However it's true that the Sims series have not really, or just very minimally dealt with social differences so far. If I remember correctly, e.g. in the Sim3 there was fame (which didn't really work) and a small bonus if your sim was rich, but in the most Sims everything depended mostly on the compatibility of the characters personality.
    But this, on the other hand caused a lot of objections in me, because in real life, the fact that two people have compatible signs according to astrology, or have the same interests, is not a guarantee yet that they will be compatible either.

    The development of the ppl personality is also influenced by living conditions and physical appeal. In other words, e.g. how attractive or rich a certain person. And let's face it, the pretty girls are predominantly popular and egotistical. They tend to look for their partners just in their own category, so for a below average guy has to try his best if he wants to catch his dream love. But in fact, that's the most fun in the whole thing ...when the persistence and efforts brings the reward, even if his chance are bad, and that's what I especially want to see in this game. The life in the characters, instead of these zombie npcs, whose just waiting for my commands.

    However, the implementation of such real things can only happen with the system I proposed.

    But let's stop here a bit... In this discussion I made that huge mistake of mainly considering just the attractiveness of the women, and I completely ignored the situation of men.
    It's true that a woman's biggest "weapon" at the men is her beauty, and that's pretty much the end of it. But for a man the things are a bit more complicated.
    Many people say how hard it is to be a woman, but then let's see what it takes for a man to be able to assert himself with a woman. Besides whether he is handsome or not, he needs to be pointful, self-assertive, strong-minded, well informed about everything ...and the physical characteristics such as height, strength, etc. And finally, there is the most important thing, the wealth. The financial security is important to the most women, but let's not forget those girls too who are only satisfied with the luxurious lifestyle.
    Actually there is nothing wrong with that. But staying with men, the point is that in their case we can't solve the attractiveness just by giving them a specific value from 1-10 or in other words the max level alluring attribution as I suggested in this discussion at the case of girls.

    But back to the main topic. One thing is for sure, social differences are part of our life as you said, that's why I support the idea of having it an even more "aggressive" influence in the game, but the implementation of this maybe won't be too easy. However it would be time for the game to finally improving from other aspects as well besides adding new dishes and home furnishings..
    Post edited by Kakkant on
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    You need to take into account that sims aren't that complex of a simulation. I mean, since the last patch there's a lady calling my single sims with no children and offering her nanny services. And sims still do things they dislike. So an attraction system would ideally not be very complicated. I liked how in TS2 you could choose what elements sims found attractive, like certain colour of hair or eyecolour, or traits, or fortune, etc. Maybe they could do something similar in TS4, and if enough attractive elements stacked together in a single sim, then they could be considered very attractive, or not, depending on the sims' preferences.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited October 2023
    crocobaura wrote: »
    You need to take into account that sims aren't that complex of a simulation. I mean, since the last patch there's a lady calling my single sims with no children and offering her nanny services. And sims still do things they dislike. So an attraction system would ideally not be very complicated. I liked how in TS2 you could choose what elements sims found attractive, like certain colour of hair or eyecolour, or traits, or fortune, etc. Maybe they could do something similar in TS4, and if enough attractive elements stacked together in a single sim, then they could be considered very attractive, or not, depending on the sims' preferences.

    Well, I don't want to criticize this game since it's one of my favorites, but if you think about it, the AI in the Sims hasn't been able to show much progress even since the Sims1. It's enough to look at the guests behavior. As soon you let them in, your household members are practically the last thing they care about. Instead of conversing with your characters, they rather target the nearest laptop or the pool in your garden, and then hours later they suddenly say goodbye. Sometimes I can't decide if they are really my guests or just some intruders who enjoy the comfort of my home.
    But this was only one thing among the many.

    And about the attraction.. I don't really want to push this topic further, but personally I didn't really like the Sims2's chemistry system that much as many others. But in this discussion among the comments I also described why, and especially why I feel it outdated.
  • Options
    EnRouteEnRoute Posts: 12 New Member
    @Kakkant
    Yes, I was thinking of a rivalry especially among the teenagers, where the more attractive sims prevail more easily when choosing a partner. This everyone is equal to everyone phenomenon is already extremely boring in the game.
    Essentially the reason I liked the attraction system you wrote about here is that, it can be easily combined with the concept of social differences I want. We have not only a difference between rich and poor, or boss and subordinate, but it also distinguishes between attractive and average-looking ppl. But it's another question that whether the social difference as a concept will ever be realized in the Sims. :(
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited October 2023
    EnRoute wrote: »
    Yes, I was thinking of a rivalry especially among the teenagers, where the more attractive sims prevail more easily when choosing a partner. This everyone is equal to everyone phenomenon is already extremely boring in the game.
    Essentially the reason I liked the attraction system you wrote about here is that, it can be easily combined with the concept of social differences I want. We have not only a difference between rich and poor, or boss and subordinate, but it also distinguishes between attractive and average-looking ppl. But it's another question that whether the social difference as a concept will ever be realized in the Sims. :(

    It seems I want pretty much the same thing as you in terms of attractiveness, although I'm not sure about that the difference between the attractive and unattractive people/sims can be categorized to the social differences as you saying. The correct words we look for is maybe the popular and unpopular. But as I said in this discussion, no attraction system has been made for the game yet which would have been able to group the characters e.g. in terms of popularity based on their attractiveness.

    But in fact this topic reminds me a bit the Sims2's influence feature, where your sim could persuade the other sims to do certain things for her. The more friends a specific sim was able to acquire, the higher influence points she reached. So we can say that the popularity in that game was based on the amount of friends.
    But what does it take in the real life for someone to be so popular (especially for a girl) that everyone wants to be friends with and especially dating with her..?! No, not just an engaging personality. The answer is.. an irresistible appeal. Yes, the attractiveness.
    And as I have mentioned several times, this is what's missing from the whole Sims, that the popularity of a certain character, and how easily she gets new friends should also depend on the magnitude of her attractiveness, and not just on her traits. But for this, the games requires a new, more efficient attraction system, which is not already driven by only the compatibility between the characters..
  • Options
    EnRouteEnRoute Posts: 12 New Member
    @Kakkant
    Answering to your last comment, unfortunately I strongly doubt that the ugliness and beauty will ever have any significance in the Sims. I personally agree with that you wrote, although your theory and suggestion may seem a bit superficial to a few people as to how big a role the appearance has. But their fiction that everyone is attracted to different people, and "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is a total 🐸🐸🐸🐸, or just partly true. It is a proven fact that the more attractive people find their partner more easily, and the pretty women are more likely to find a rich husband. It's the pure reality.
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @Kakkant
    Answering to your last comment, unfortunately I strongly doubt that the ugliness and beauty will ever have any significance in the Sims. I personally agree with that you wrote, although your theory and suggestion may seem a bit superficial to a few people as to how big a role the appearance has. But their fiction that everyone is attracted to different people, and "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is a total 🐸🐸🐸🐸🐸, or just partly true. It is a proven fact that the more attractive people find their partner more easily, and the pretty women are more likely to find a rich husband. It's the pure reality.

    There are plenty of pretty women married to average income men and plenty of rich men married to average looking women so your theory doesn't stand. There are more things that factor into attractiveness than just being physically pretty or money rich, and most people eventually find a partner that they get along with and have a similar lifestyle and values. Also beauty standards vary from region to region and beauty standards from the past are different from today. Similarly, being rich is somewhat relative to one's expectations and how they perceive wealth. Then there is also the question of do you mingle in the right circles to meet the desired partner and then some people are attracted to the exotic and uncommon.
    So, if they add attractiveness to TS4, I hope they do it like in TS2 where you have to choose what elements your sims find attractive instead of adding an arbitrary attractiveness factor to the sims.
  • Options
    EnRouteEnRoute Posts: 12 New Member
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.


    I'm not speaking about spirituality. What I'm saying is that while everyone looks for beauty, not everyone's idea of beauty is the same, there is no universal standard. It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone makes an effort to look their best and maybe even make some changes to their appearance in their attempt to do so but there are some things that can't be change and, moreover, people have such varied beauty standards that they may not actually be impressed by the changes made to meet their presumed expectations.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    crocobaura wrote: »
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.


    I'm not speaking about spirituality. What I'm saying is that while everyone looks for beauty, not everyone's idea of beauty is the same, there is no universal standard. It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone makes an effort to look their best and maybe even make some changes to their appearance in their attempt to do so but there are some things that can't be change and, moreover, people have such varied beauty standards that they may not actually be impressed by the changes made to meet their presumed expectations.

    At first I didn't intend to interfere in the argument between the two of you, but it's hard to remain impartial when you propose the opposite of that my whole discussion is about.
    Let's start with the fact that despite the most people have roughly the same idea about the beauty and ugliness, you categorically still state that the attraction system I proposed in this discussion cannot work. I am always open to new suggestions, but if you propose a system where the attraction is based on the eye and hair color, then I will be the one who disagrees with you.

    It doesn't hurt to know one thing. We are talking about a game, and within that a virtual reality, which means our opportunities are limited. Therefore your view about the "relative beauty" cannot be applied here. The npcs don't have self-awareness or real emotions to select the perfect partner with surgical precision based on the principle of reality. This would require a soul. But the solution for this problem is obviously not the chemistry system from the Sims2 which defines the attraction based on perfume and baseball caps.. These are just props that have nothing to do with whether someone is pretty or average.

    But if we take the reality as a basis and think based on that, your view is still wrong. You won't figure out, but the attraction and the beauty itself are actually two separate notions.
    And between these two factors, the attraction which is the more "relative", since it includes everything that makes us attracted to another person. More precisely it includes all qualities that are impressive for a given person beyond the appearance.

    And then, there is the beauty or we can call it appearance, which reminds everyone of the most attractive persons they have seen so far. You've had great debates here about whether the universal attractiveness exists or not, however you have to realize that if some1 wants to be a master of seduction, (s)he has to be attractive ...and not just a little, but a lot.

    But as you said, the both factors can be grouped according to human tastes and preferences. Just the problem is that, as I said above, there are limits in a game, and so far no attraction system has been made yet that would have been able to reduce this difference between humans and the artificial intelligence.

    But the system I proposed here can be more beneficial, because we could determine in the game which sim is attractive and which is the opposite, according to our own taste. Literally we could transfer our preferred idealism into the game.
    Its only shortcoming is that it's based only on the appearance, therefore it's not enough just in itself. So it needs to be combined with another feature as well, which also takes into account the personalities and traits, and the common lifegoals, or the influence of wealth.

    But as I said earlier, in reality the attraction always starts at a first glance, and those factors such as social compatibility, traits and the influence of the astrology have no influence until the first interactions ...and it should be on the same way in the Sims as well.
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    Kakkant wrote: »
    crocobaura wrote: »
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.


    I'm not speaking about spirituality. What I'm saying is that while everyone looks for beauty, not everyone's idea of beauty is the same, there is no universal standard. It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone makes an effort to look their best and maybe even make some changes to their appearance in their attempt to do so but there are some things that can't be change and, moreover, people have such varied beauty standards that they may not actually be impressed by the changes made to meet their presumed expectations.

    At first I didn't intend to interfere in the argument between the two of you, but it's hard to remain impartial when you propose the opposite of that my whole discussion is about.
    Let's start with the fact that despite the most people have roughly the same idea about the beauty and ugliness, you categorically still state that the attraction system I proposed in this discussion cannot work. I am always open to new suggestions, but if you propose a system where the attraction is based on the eye and hair color, then I will be the one who disagrees with you.

    It doesn't hurt to know one thing. We are talking about a game, and within that a virtual reality, which means our opportunities are limited. Therefore your view about the "relative beauty" cannot be applied here. The npcs don't have self-awareness or real emotions to select the perfect partner with surgical precision based on the principle of reality. This would require a soul. But the solution for this problem is obviously not the chemistry system from the Sims2 which defines the attraction based on perfume and baseball caps.. These are just props that have nothing to do with whether someone is pretty or average.

    But if we take the reality as a basis and think based on that, your view is still wrong. You won't figure out, but the attraction and the beauty itself are actually two separate notions.
    And between these two factors, the attraction which is the more "relative", since it includes everything that makes us attracted to another person. More precisely it includes all qualities that are impressive for a given person beyond the appearance.

    And then, there is the beauty or we can call it appearance, which reminds everyone of the most attractive persons they have seen so far. You've had great debates here about whether the universal attractiveness exists or not, however you have to realize that if some1 wants to be a master of seduction, (s)he has to be attractive ...and not just a little, but a lot.

    But as you said, the both factors can be grouped according to human tastes and preferences. Just the problem is that, as I said above, there are limits in a game, and so far no attraction system has been made yet that would have been able to reduce this difference between humans and the artificial intelligence.

    But the system I proposed here can be more beneficial, because we could determine in the game which sim is attractive and which is the opposite, according to our own taste. Literally we could transfer our preferred idealism into the game.
    Its only shortcoming is that it's based only on the appearance, therefore it's not enough just in itself. So it needs to be combined with another feature as well, which also takes into account the personalities and traits, and the common lifegoals, or the influence of wealth.

    But as I said earlier, in reality the attraction always starts at a first glance, and those factors such as social compatibility, traits and the influence of the astrology have no influence until the first interactions ...and it should be on the same way in the Sims as well.


    You can't be attracted to someone without liking something about them, finding some beauty in them. Trying to separate the two doesn't work, and I don't want to play a game where the sims are arbitrarily deemed as attractive, beautiful or ugly. I've seen the gallery uploads and what some people find attractive and let's just say my tastes are different. I also don't want a standard of beauty imposed on the game because that's not how the world works and we all come in all shapes and sizes and colours. Excusing such a system due to the limits of game AI is lazy programming. Besides, having a system of stackable attractive elements makes it possible to differentiate between different sims, where one could be more attractive than the other if there were more elements about him/her that your sim finds attractive. Sims 2 attraction system didn't include just perfume and baseball caps, it included all CAS elements, and the player could decide what their sims find attractive and you could have different attraction levels with two sims who were quite similar looking. You can't make a sim that's universally attractive, because that's not how attraction works.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    crocobaura wrote: »
    Kakkant wrote: »
    crocobaura wrote: »
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.


    I'm not speaking about spirituality. What I'm saying is that while everyone looks for beauty, not everyone's idea of beauty is the same, there is no universal standard. It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone makes an effort to look their best and maybe even make some changes to their appearance in their attempt to do so but there are some things that can't be change and, moreover, people have such varied beauty standards that they may not actually be impressed by the changes made to meet their presumed expectations.

    At first I didn't intend to interfere in the argument between the two of you, but it's hard to remain impartial when you propose the opposite of that my whole discussion is about.
    Let's start with the fact that despite the most people have roughly the same idea about the beauty and ugliness, you categorically still state that the attraction system I proposed in this discussion cannot work. I am always open to new suggestions, but if you propose a system where the attraction is based on the eye and hair color, then I will be the one who disagrees with you.

    It doesn't hurt to know one thing. We are talking about a game, and within that a virtual reality, which means our opportunities are limited. Therefore your view about the "relative beauty" cannot be applied here. The npcs don't have self-awareness or real emotions to select the perfect partner with surgical precision based on the principle of reality. This would require a soul. But the solution for this problem is obviously not the chemistry system from the Sims2 which defines the attraction based on perfume and baseball caps.. These are just props that have nothing to do with whether someone is pretty or average.

    But if we take the reality as a basis and think based on that, your view is still wrong. You won't figure out, but the attraction and the beauty itself are actually two separate notions.
    And between these two factors, the attraction which is the more "relative", since it includes everything that makes us attracted to another person. More precisely it includes all qualities that are impressive for a given person beyond the appearance.

    And then, there is the beauty or we can call it appearance, which reminds everyone of the most attractive persons they have seen so far. You've had great debates here about whether the universal attractiveness exists or not, however you have to realize that if some1 wants to be a master of seduction, (s)he has to be attractive ...and not just a little, but a lot.

    But as you said, the both factors can be grouped according to human tastes and preferences. Just the problem is that, as I said above, there are limits in a game, and so far no attraction system has been made yet that would have been able to reduce this difference between humans and the artificial intelligence.

    But the system I proposed here can be more beneficial, because we could determine in the game which sim is attractive and which is the opposite, according to our own taste. Literally we could transfer our preferred idealism into the game.
    Its only shortcoming is that it's based only on the appearance, therefore it's not enough just in itself. So it needs to be combined with another feature as well, which also takes into account the personalities and traits, and the common lifegoals, or the influence of wealth.

    But as I said earlier, in reality the attraction always starts at a first glance, and those factors such as social compatibility, traits and the influence of the astrology have no influence until the first interactions ...and it should be on the same way in the Sims as well.


    You can't be attracted to someone without liking something about them, finding some beauty in them. Trying to separate the two doesn't work, and I don't want to play a game where the sims are arbitrarily deemed as attractive, beautiful or ugly. I've seen the gallery uploads and what some people find attractive and let's just say my tastes are different. I also don't want a standard of beauty imposed on the game because that's not how the world works and we all come in all shapes and sizes and colours. Excusing such a system due to the limits of game AI is lazy programming. Besides, having a system of stackable attractive elements makes it possible to differentiate between different sims, where one could be more attractive than the other if there were more elements about him/her that your sim finds attractive. Sims 2 attraction system didn't include just perfume and baseball caps, it included all CAS elements, and the player could decide what their sims find attractive and you could have different attraction levels with two sims who were quite similar looking. You can't make a sim that's universally attractive, because that's not how attraction works.

    In response to your last sentence.... Ok, but then how does the attraction works according to your theory.. If you have black hair and blue eyes, I will swipe you right on Tinder? Honestly... Doesn't the chemistry system seems a bit superficial to you? Since when is it lifelike that a sim can be seduced by everyone who has e.g. makeup and tattoos, just because his TurnOn list contains both of this attributes...
    I admit that my wish is far from perfect as well, but what makes the chemistry system better? Just like the every other previous attraction systems, this one also fails to identify the nature of beauty.
    But actually I don't blame you because you dislike that idea I proposed. I accept it. But even if we continue this discussion to infinity, you won't be able to convince me about the effectiveness of the chemistry system, or that the ugly is actually pretty..
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    Kakkant wrote: »
    crocobaura wrote: »
    Kakkant wrote: »
    crocobaura wrote: »
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.


    I'm not speaking about spirituality. What I'm saying is that while everyone looks for beauty, not everyone's idea of beauty is the same, there is no universal standard. It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone makes an effort to look their best and maybe even make some changes to their appearance in their attempt to do so but there are some things that can't be change and, moreover, people have such varied beauty standards that they may not actually be impressed by the changes made to meet their presumed expectations.

    At first I didn't intend to interfere in the argument between the two of you, but it's hard to remain impartial when you propose the opposite of that my whole discussion is about.
    Let's start with the fact that despite the most people have roughly the same idea about the beauty and ugliness, you categorically still state that the attraction system I proposed in this discussion cannot work. I am always open to new suggestions, but if you propose a system where the attraction is based on the eye and hair color, then I will be the one who disagrees with you.

    It doesn't hurt to know one thing. We are talking about a game, and within that a virtual reality, which means our opportunities are limited. Therefore your view about the "relative beauty" cannot be applied here. The npcs don't have self-awareness or real emotions to select the perfect partner with surgical precision based on the principle of reality. This would require a soul. But the solution for this problem is obviously not the chemistry system from the Sims2 which defines the attraction based on perfume and baseball caps.. These are just props that have nothing to do with whether someone is pretty or average.

    But if we take the reality as a basis and think based on that, your view is still wrong. You won't figure out, but the attraction and the beauty itself are actually two separate notions.
    And between these two factors, the attraction which is the more "relative", since it includes everything that makes us attracted to another person. More precisely it includes all qualities that are impressive for a given person beyond the appearance.

    And then, there is the beauty or we can call it appearance, which reminds everyone of the most attractive persons they have seen so far. You've had great debates here about whether the universal attractiveness exists or not, however you have to realize that if some1 wants to be a master of seduction, (s)he has to be attractive ...and not just a little, but a lot.

    But as you said, the both factors can be grouped according to human tastes and preferences. Just the problem is that, as I said above, there are limits in a game, and so far no attraction system has been made yet that would have been able to reduce this difference between humans and the artificial intelligence.

    But the system I proposed here can be more beneficial, because we could determine in the game which sim is attractive and which is the opposite, according to our own taste. Literally we could transfer our preferred idealism into the game.
    Its only shortcoming is that it's based only on the appearance, therefore it's not enough just in itself. So it needs to be combined with another feature as well, which also takes into account the personalities and traits, and the common lifegoals, or the influence of wealth.

    But as I said earlier, in reality the attraction always starts at a first glance, and those factors such as social compatibility, traits and the influence of the astrology have no influence until the first interactions ...and it should be on the same way in the Sims as well.


    You can't be attracted to someone without liking something about them, finding some beauty in them. Trying to separate the two doesn't work, and I don't want to play a game where the sims are arbitrarily deemed as attractive, beautiful or ugly. I've seen the gallery uploads and what some people find attractive and let's just say my tastes are different. I also don't want a standard of beauty imposed on the game because that's not how the world works and we all come in all shapes and sizes and colours. Excusing such a system due to the limits of game AI is lazy programming. Besides, having a system of stackable attractive elements makes it possible to differentiate between different sims, where one could be more attractive than the other if there were more elements about him/her that your sim finds attractive. Sims 2 attraction system didn't include just perfume and baseball caps, it included all CAS elements, and the player could decide what their sims find attractive and you could have different attraction levels with two sims who were quite similar looking. You can't make a sim that's universally attractive, because that's not how attraction works.

    In response to your last sentence.... Ok, but then how does the attraction works according to your theory.. If you have black hair and blue eyes, I will swipe you right on Tinder? Honestly... Doesn't the chemistry system seems a bit superficial to you? Since when is it lifelike that a sim can be seduced by everyone who has e.g. makeup and tattoos, just because his TurnOn list contains both of this attributes...
    I admit that my wish is far from perfect as well, but what makes the chemistry system better? Just like the every other previous attraction systems, this one also fails to identify the nature of beauty.
    But actually I don't blame you because you dislike that idea I proposed. I accept it. But even if we continue this discussion to infinity, you won't be able to convince me about the effectiveness of the chemistry system, or that the ugly is actually pretty..



    I'm not trying to convince you of anything, let alone of something ugly being pretty as that is subjective, just because two people agree on both finding something beautiful or ugly, it doesn't make it a universal standard. If you don't want your sims to be turned on by tattoos, don't give them that option, but if you do, then they won't be seduced by anyone who has a tattoo as long as they have other criteria to select from, like hair or eye colour, or fitness level, or maybe some traits.
  • Options
    SheriSim57SheriSim57 Posts: 7,058 Member
    Social Compatibility is a starting point, it's similar to TS2 Chemistry system.

    Just it misses in the Likes and Dislikes :
    • Physical Appearance (Hair color, fitness, makeup, tattoo, piercing, occult)
    • Social Status (age, career and financial status)

    These are good ideas for an attraction system, for male attracting, maybe amount of facial hair could be added and hair length. For females maybe hair length could be added. Also maybe the amount of body hair for each sex could be added as a like or dislike. Also, eye color ( since we have colors added in the game ).

    A few extra attractions could be added such as adding scents to the game maybe some new perfumes/colognes such as spicy scent, fruity scent, musky scent, no scent, as attractions ( romantic likes and dislikes ). Also, common traits and likes and dislikes could be added as well for romantic attraction since we now have likes and dislikes and comparability for sims. A romance pack would be a good place to add these things, or as a basegame update before a romance pack.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited October 2023
    crocobaura wrote: »
    Kakkant wrote: »
    crocobaura wrote: »
    Kakkant wrote: »
    crocobaura wrote: »
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @crocobaura
    Obviously the spiritual factors also play a big role in a relationship and marriage, but when you say that "plenty of rich men married to AVERAGE looking women", you just confirm that the beauty as an universal concept actually very much exist.
    Why people want to look their best before a first date or in a profile picture. Because they want to meet the expectations.
    Just as not everyone can be an atom scientist, not everyone can be a model. I'm not making this up, these are the facts.


    I'm not speaking about spirituality. What I'm saying is that while everyone looks for beauty, not everyone's idea of beauty is the same, there is no universal standard. It truly is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone makes an effort to look their best and maybe even make some changes to their appearance in their attempt to do so but there are some things that can't be change and, moreover, people have such varied beauty standards that they may not actually be impressed by the changes made to meet their presumed expectations.

    At first I didn't intend to interfere in the argument between the two of you, but it's hard to remain impartial when you propose the opposite of that my whole discussion is about.
    Let's start with the fact that despite the most people have roughly the same idea about the beauty and ugliness, you categorically still state that the attraction system I proposed in this discussion cannot work. I am always open to new suggestions, but if you propose a system where the attraction is based on the eye and hair color, then I will be the one who disagrees with you.

    It doesn't hurt to know one thing. We are talking about a game, and within that a virtual reality, which means our opportunities are limited. Therefore your view about the "relative beauty" cannot be applied here. The npcs don't have self-awareness or real emotions to select the perfect partner with surgical precision based on the principle of reality. This would require a soul. But the solution for this problem is obviously not the chemistry system from the Sims2 which defines the attraction based on perfume and baseball caps.. These are just props that have nothing to do with whether someone is pretty or average.

    But if we take the reality as a basis and think based on that, your view is still wrong. You won't figure out, but the attraction and the beauty itself are actually two separate notions.
    And between these two factors, the attraction which is the more "relative", since it includes everything that makes us attracted to another person. More precisely it includes all qualities that are impressive for a given person beyond the appearance.

    And then, there is the beauty or we can call it appearance, which reminds everyone of the most attractive persons they have seen so far. You've had great debates here about whether the universal attractiveness exists or not, however you have to realize that if some1 wants to be a master of seduction, (s)he has to be attractive ...and not just a little, but a lot.

    But as you said, the both factors can be grouped according to human tastes and preferences. Just the problem is that, as I said above, there are limits in a game, and so far no attraction system has been made yet that would have been able to reduce this difference between humans and the artificial intelligence.

    But the system I proposed here can be more beneficial, because we could determine in the game which sim is attractive and which is the opposite, according to our own taste. Literally we could transfer our preferred idealism into the game.
    Its only shortcoming is that it's based only on the appearance, therefore it's not enough just in itself. So it needs to be combined with another feature as well, which also takes into account the personalities and traits, and the common lifegoals, or the influence of wealth.

    But as I said earlier, in reality the attraction always starts at a first glance, and those factors such as social compatibility, traits and the influence of the astrology have no influence until the first interactions ...and it should be on the same way in the Sims as well.


    You can't be attracted to someone without liking something about them, finding some beauty in them. Trying to separate the two doesn't work, and I don't want to play a game where the sims are arbitrarily deemed as attractive, beautiful or ugly. I've seen the gallery uploads and what some people find attractive and let's just say my tastes are different. I also don't want a standard of beauty imposed on the game because that's not how the world works and we all come in all shapes and sizes and colours. Excusing such a system due to the limits of game AI is lazy programming. Besides, having a system of stackable attractive elements makes it possible to differentiate between different sims, where one could be more attractive than the other if there were more elements about him/her that your sim finds attractive. Sims 2 attraction system didn't include just perfume and baseball caps, it included all CAS elements, and the player could decide what their sims find attractive and you could have different attraction levels with two sims who were quite similar looking. You can't make a sim that's universally attractive, because that's not how attraction works.

    In response to your last sentence.... Ok, but then how does the attraction works according to your theory.. If you have black hair and blue eyes, I will swipe you right on Tinder? Honestly... Doesn't the chemistry system seems a bit superficial to you? Since when is it lifelike that a sim can be seduced by everyone who has e.g. makeup and tattoos, just because his TurnOn list contains both of this attributes...
    I admit that my wish is far from perfect as well, but what makes the chemistry system better? Just like the every other previous attraction systems, this one also fails to identify the nature of beauty.
    But actually I don't blame you because you dislike that idea I proposed. I accept it. But even if we continue this discussion to infinity, you won't be able to convince me about the effectiveness of the chemistry system, or that the ugly is actually pretty..



    I'm not trying to convince you of anything, let alone of something ugly being pretty as that is subjective, just because two people agree on both finding something beautiful or ugly, it doesn't make it a universal standard. If you don't want your sims to be turned on by tattoos, don't give them that option, but if you do, then they won't be seduced by anyone who has a tattoo as long as they have other criteria to select from, like hair or eye colour, or fitness level, or maybe some traits.

    You don't need to explain to me how the chemistry system works, because earlier I've used it for years. And if I say that it's blind and superficial to recognize anything related to the notion of beauty, then there is a good reason, believe me..
    Post edited by Kakkant on
  • Options
    BreakTheSilenceBreakTheSilence Posts: 34 Member
    edited October 2023
    It's quite a rare case when two people equally attracted to a particular person. But since the world's population is almost 8 billion already, maybe mathematically there is a chance for it. Who knows.. But one thing is for sure, everyone's taste is different and it mainly depends on our personality, and aware of this, there is not much chance for that the devs will ever consider at all about the example was described here about the attraction system.
    Although despite the fact that there is no exact prescribed order among people based on their beauty, @Kakkant 's theory is correct on two points.
    - Unfortunately the AI has borders, so at some point a compromise has to be made due to the constraints of the games.
    - Maybe it's no question that the meaning of beauty is relative, and it's also influenced by different cultures. But we should admit that our so-called idols have always existed who easily collects thousands of likes a day on the social media due to their appeal. But to give easy examples, we know how attractive eg. Beyonce or Ariana Grande, or how many women idolize David Beckham.
    So from this point of view this idea is not that bad, I actually like it. Just it would fit better in a mod than in the main game.

    and of course I also have my own type of ideals hehehe

    387845716-2210171452510081-7724428936111623891-n.jpg
    393768673-1062068614791064-120988240293218783-n.jpg
    394276037-1063098461354746-7175028025469757545-n.jpg
    387834764-122109425090062117-8998317851288199299-n.jpg
    387739329-226968073713473-3760947329980137483-n.jpg
    Post edited by BreakTheSilence on
  • Options
    EnRouteEnRoute Posts: 12 New Member
    @BreakTheSilence
    The Sims3's most popular adult mod used this system already, and it worked quite well just it wasn't enough effective yet in that game. But the author of this discussion probably got the idea from there. I find it a bit simple as a solution, because you can set even for an ugly sim the most attractive value, but I still like it better because of its "player wants" customization. If you want some sim to be attractive and popular, then they will be. If you want them ugly and a hopeless case, there is no problem. Simple but effective.
  • Options
    BreakTheSilenceBreakTheSilence Posts: 34 Member
    edited October 2023
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @BreakTheSilence
    The Sims3's most popular adult mod used this system already, and it worked quite well just it wasn't enough effective yet in that game. But the author of this discussion probably got the idea from there. I find it a bit simple as a solution, because you can set even for an ugly sim the most attractive value, but I still like it better because of its "player wants" customization. If you want some sim to be attractive and popular, then they will be. If you want them ugly and a hopeless case, there is no problem. Simple but effective.

    Maybe just like in reality, in the Sims it should also be possible to organize a kind of beauty contest from time to time, as Miss World (town name). lol
    To be honest regarding the attraction system I have no idea which would be the best solution, but the game really lacks the courting and the competing for the real one.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited November 2023
    EnRoute wrote: »
    @BreakTheSilence
    The Sims3's most popular adult mod used this system already, and it worked quite well just it wasn't enough effective yet in that game. But the author of this discussion probably got the idea from there. I find it a bit simple as a solution, because you can set even for an ugly sim the most attractive value, but I still like it better because of its "player wants" customization. If you want some sim to be attractive and popular, then they will be. If you want them ugly and a hopeless case, there is no problem. Simple but effective.

    Maybe just like in reality, in the Sims it should also be possible to organize a kind of beauty contest from time to time, as Miss World (town name). lol
    To be honest regarding the attraction system I have no idea which would be the best solution, but the game really lacks the courting and the competing for the real one.

    Probably there is no perfect solution. But even if a few people disagree, I still think that we need something that also places a great emphasis on the universal appeal.
    I don't want to dispute that the relative beauty as a concept exist, but I've already described this countless times not everyone has the same chances and options when it comes to finding a partner. In real life the attractiveness of people is not equal, but different. But ye it's true that everyone finds their own partner at the end, however there are women and men who can choose from about thousands, not just a few. Even if the degree of attraction is different for each people, the majority mostly agree on who is considered pretty or handsome.

    Actually the chemistry system wasn't a bad start, but it's only useful as far as the fetishes and tastes are concerned such as different hair styles, stockings etc. But since it can't take into account those important factors as the "magical" gaze, or a perfect smile, and flawless facial structure, (in other words: the "radiance") which make us fall in love to someone, that system just in it self can't give a perfect picture from the reality.
    However the reality is complicated for the AI, therefore we also need an "additional" feature which allows us to supplement a given attraction system with human intelligence. Kind of like what this whole discussion is about.
  • Options
    fujicakes1fujicakes1 Posts: 1,388 Member
    I really don't understand what the problem is with making it so the player is able to select a sim's preferences. Why is that even a point of contention? Not to mention, these are cartoons. This is a game. And again - what you consider attractive now was not considered attractive in the past, will not be considered attractive in the future, and is not considered attractive in all cultures. While the internet has homogenized cultures to a certain extent, there are still very distinct differences in what different cultures consider to be the ideal. Why is any of that so difficult to understand? Ok, I'm out.
    All my daily trances, and all my nightly dreams, are where thy grey eye glances, and where thy footstep gleams.
    I dance to the beat of my own drum, no matter how measured or far away.
    I do love a road. You can always be wondering what is at the end of it.
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    Kakkant wrote: »
    Probably there is no perfect solution. But even if a few people disagree, I still think that we need something that also places a great emphasis on the universal appeal.
    I don't want to dispute that the relative beauty as a concept exist, but I've already described this countless times not everyone has the same chances and options when it comes to finding a partner. In real life the attractiveness of people is not equal, but different. But ye it's true that everyone finds their own partner at the end, however there are women and men who can choose from about thousands, not just a few.


    What is the universal appeal and how would it make gameplay fun? You want to limit attractiveness to strictly physical level, but in real life there are very different looking people who have thousands of admirers for their looks alone. How do you put that in the game and limit it to just your one special sim? You could give your sim the beguiling trait if you want to make them super attractive but you can't limit attractiveness to just blue eyes or pink hair.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited November 2023
    @fujicakes1 So it's my fault that I dare to think in the present and don't take into account what was the ideal, or will be in 10,000 years earlier or later. I'm sorry if this matters that much to you... :smiley:
    Anyway.. I won't hold you back, but it's not like that you added any useful idea to this discussion.
  • Options
    KakkantKakkant Posts: 37 Member
    edited November 2023
    @crocobaura You cleverly forgot to copy the second part of my comment. But wait, I'll do it for you, and maybe you'll finally read it:

    "Actually the chemistry system wasn't a bad start, but it's only useful as far as the fetishes and tastes are concerned such as different hair styles, stockings etc. But since it can't take into account those important factors as the "magical" gaze, or a perfect smile, and flawless facial structure, (in other words: the "radiance") which make us fall in love to someone, that system just in it self can't give a perfect picture from the reality.
    However the reality is complicated for the AI, therefore we also need an "additional" feature which allows us to supplement a given attraction system with human intelligence. Kind of like what this whole discussion is about."


    Just analyze it a little. It's rather your beloved chemistry system that pushes the attractiveness behind physical barriers. Think a little before you start arguing..
  • Options
    crocobauracrocobaura Posts: 7,711 Member
    Kakkant wrote: »
    @crocobaura You cleverly forgot to copy the second part of my comment. But wait, I'll do it for you, and maybe you'll finally read it:

    "Actually the chemistry system wasn't a bad start, but it's only useful as far as the fetishes and tastes are concerned such as different hair styles, stockings etc. But since it can't take into account those important factors as the "magical" gaze, or a perfect smile, and flawless facial structure, (in other words: the "radiance") which make us fall in love to someone, that system just in it self can't give a perfect picture from the reality.
    However the reality is complicated for the AI, therefore we also need an "additional" feature which allows us to supplement a given attraction system with human intelligence. Kind of like what this whole discussion is about."


    Just analyze it a little. It's rather your beloved chemistry system that pushes the attractiveness behind physical barriers. Think a little before you start arguing..

    The magic you speak of. :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rhn8afEwiA

    The chemistry system is great because it gives you quantifiable elements that the game understands. If you set blue eyes as attractive, it understands that. If you want it to understand beautiful blue eyes, you are asking too much because that's a subjective evaluation. If you want a beautiful or charming trait so your sim is attractive by default, I suppose that's something that can be added to the game but it would probably override the chemistry system as all other sims will find them irresistible. That's a bit unrealistic and if you want them to find a partner, you will need to either find a partner with a similar trait, or let the chemistry system work it's magic. So those thousands of potential partners they can choose from that you speak of can suddenly dwindle to a very small number.
  • Options
    friendlysimmersfriendlysimmers Posts: 7,587 Member
    as a player even if this feature is not really part of my game style i would say all players are intitle to have features they went ingame if i look at it with a story point of view
    If you went the sims5 to remain offline feel free to sign this petition http://chng.it/gtfHPhHK please note that it is also to keep the gallery



    Repose en paix mamie tu va me manquer :

    1923-2016 mamie :'(
Sign In or Register to comment.
Return to top