Sims 5 is going to be more modder-friendly, right?
The Sims 5 sub is probably gonna have a workshop like on Steam where you can upload mods/cc and easily update them without having to go through thirdparty websites to look out for an update..
Maybe an option to have a much easier tool to do your own CC with "sculpting" furniture or something like that? and put it on the gallery.
x Online worlds... there are some possibilities what to do with subs..
Its kinda old to always have to buy the must-have packs like Seasons and Pets... so who knows... maybe a part of the sub too to lol.
Subscription is a deal breaker for me. An online game is also a deal breaker. I actually prefer the purchasing format we have right now. I've also seen people say they want the Sims 3 store back, and that would also be a deal breaker for me. I refuse to play a game that requires micro-transactions as well. I want them to invest more time and energy into making expansion packs like we used to get in past games. We need them to focus on quality and cohesion. Each expansion should build on previous ones. For example, we finally have stuff packs that allow cats and dogs to interact with the items. All of our packs should integrate like this and unlock unique features based on what packs we own. My fear is that they will strip the game more than Sims 4 and force us to pay a subscriptions fee and micro-transactions to unlock the best content. Their poor decision making could end the Sims franchise for good.
I will declare the franchise officially dead after sims 3 if any of these assumptions turn out to be true. I'll just continue to play sims 3 like I've been doing this whole time and convert s4 content over to the game. Since it was in the job description it doesn't seem that much of reach, even sims 4 shows they tried to go mobile/online even though it has failed time and time again.
I don't know what the obsession is with this unwanted and failed market plan, but they need to let it go or face losing majority of the sims fan base. If they no longer have passion for the sims, then ending it or passing it on would be a better option than just killing it off.
There's no way I'm paying Ea to watch a sim eat, 🐸🐸🐸🐸, and sleep or occasional sleep around with other sims. Ea isn't hulu/netflix, I already bought the game from you once, I refuse to keep paying a company just to continue play. Forget it.
Sims 5 is going to be more modder-friendly, right?
The Sims 5 sub is probably gonna have a workshop like on Steam where you can upload mods/cc and easily update them without having to go through thirdparty websites to look out for an update..
Maybe an option to have a much easier tool to do your own CC with "sculpting" furniture or something like that? and put it on the gallery.
x Online worlds... there are some possibilities what to do with subs..
Its kinda old to always have to buy the must-have packs like Seasons and Pets... so who knows... maybe a part of the sub too to lol.
I dont trust EAvil
The idea of a subscription, I don't trust in the slightest. To make it easy to mod sounds nice, but that sounds like EA is leaving players to create most of the content for free, and yet subscribe to The Sims to upload and download it.
It doesn't take a genius to realise this is a worrying direction to take additional content in. Keep in mind that things change in development, sometimes quite late, or that it may just be some kind of spinoff, but it's important EA realises we don't like it.
Prepping a list of mods to add after Infants are placed into the game. Because real life isn't 'nice'.
It depends. Subscription service might not be bad if you then get all the packs/content as part of that. I mean, how much have we spent on other sims games after buying the base game and packs? But, Origin already offers a subscription service which Sims 4 is included in. I would think it might not be that different. Subscription for those who want it or buy the pack outright.
I think at the moment you only get 10% off buying new packs if you have a subscription on Origin. You still have to buy the packs and don't get them all on subscription. I doubt if that will change.
Most games with subscription services are MMOs where the subscription gains you access to areas of the game, like worlds in Sims. Some also allow you to purchase worlds. If you let your subscription lapse your character is only allowed in free sections of the game and those you have actually purchased.
It is hard to see how this would work in Sims because our Sims don't go on adventures to other worlds; they live there. Also Sims expansions include CAS and Build and Buy items. In subscription games these are either free or additional purchases (often microtransactions).
All in all, a subscription based Sims game sounds like a very different experience from what we are familiar with.
Subscription is a deal breaker for me. An online game is also a deal breaker. I actually prefer the purchasing format we have right now. I've also seen people say they want the Sims 3 store back, and that would also be a deal breaker for me. I refuse to play a game that requires micro-transactions as well. I want them to invest more time and energy into making expansion packs like we used to get in past games. We need them to focus on quality and cohesion. Each expansion should build on previous ones. For example, we finally have stuff packs that allow cats and dogs to interact with the items. All of our packs should integrate like this and unlock unique features based on what packs we own. My fear is that they will strip the game more than Sims 4 and force us to pay a subscriptions fee and micro-transactions to unlock the best content. Their poor decision making could end the Sims franchise for good.
When you pointed out the above, it just had me puzzled. In the previous iterations, pets have always been able to interact with items. This is not new. But TS3 pets had even more features because you can control them, have their own careers and their own wishes and lifetime goals and rewards, fall in love, etc.
I agree about subscription and online features - I don't want them either in The Sims 5. It would be two of the reasons (though not the only ones) why I would pass up on the next iteration.
If they turn the sims into a subscription-based MMO, they kill it. The sims isn't supposed to be the new WoW. It'd be a terrible mistake if they did that.
I dont mind subscription service for multiplayer, but if its single id be against it. Well have to wait and see.
If Sims 5 goes online or multiplayer at all, I hope this will only be done by accessing a separate online space, through a portal like how you visit the Sims 4 Realm of Magic area where the magic teachers are. This would allow for cheats, fan-made content and mods, but only within the single-player area of the game, and allow for a more defined separation of the online and offline space. Also, if the player's internet connection went down but the power did not go out, or the wi-fi connection was fading in and out, the game would still be playable without using cellular data. (Especially since they STILL don't have much in the way of USB modems for desktop computers and laptops that access cellular networks.)
That way, if someone has too many issues with the online version they can still play their game offline. I still don't like the idea of splitting the development costs between online and offline single-player because I believe the offline single-player experience would be worse for it.
However, the online area could include things like player vs. player real time build challenges or fashion contests, a chat area, a performance area to show off a Sim's or player's skills, special limited time events, additional mini-games, maybe a sponsor location (no annoying popups, visit it for free Sims stuff or free online area stuff from sponsors and get sponsor offers, if you don't like it you don't have to visit it), advertiser's area and limited time events.
The problem with the way Sims 3 showtime attempted multiplayer was that it was one player visiting another player's single-player space, and the other player had to accept the invite. Nobody should visit anyone else's single-player space. Plus that way, there would be no worries about who had which packs.
One advantage of a subscription service, though I hate the idea, is that it could include new content as it is released. This would generally be CAS items and build-buy objects.
However, I would ONLY want a subscription service if
(1) the subscription was optional to play the game, but you get EXTRA perks, including initial perks and monthly perks for subscribing. And by optional, I don't mean just on a trial basis. Many mobile games become unplayable over time, usually because they insanely increase the difficulty, if you don't spend real money to play. Or they turn into pesterware. That's when I simply stop playing them. (Some of them, even if you do spend money on the game, do not even remove the mandatory ads or remove the pesterware screens. Those, even if I spent any money on the game, I usually often quit the game soon after I realize these are still the case.) On the other hand, OPTIONAL ads and surveys that provide in-game benefits I do not mind as much unless they become required to advance in the game.
(2) The money from the subscription service was ONLY used for improving the Sims games (including hiring and training costs, Sims programming teams budgets and QA and Sims team salaries, server costs, existing customer communications (such as forums, surveys, interviews with players, changes and updates to the game), but not including radio or TV advertising or social media - marketing is a money pit that should never be used as an excuse for not improving the game), not other EA games, unless this subscription was INCLUDED at no charge with EA play.
Why should we pay for something else that we don't even play? If they do include it with EA Play, by the way, there is really NO EXCUSE for not adding The Sims Complete Collection and The Sims 2 Ultimate Collection to EA Play as subscription games. Whoever said this was a bad marketing idea has NO IDEA what they are talking about. They probably said it would "cannibalize" the sales of other Sims products, such as Sims 3 and Sims 4. But they overlook just how many players would actually JOIN EA play just to get access to TS1 and TS2. Both of those are old games: they would need to be updated to work on Windows 10. But GOG can do it, so EA surely should be able to do it. Otherwise, they should simply let GOG have at it and let them add them to GOG's catalog, or if not GOG, then Steam. Steam actually still stocks several titles that are incompatible with newer computers, and if it is incompatible, it certainly could not "cannibalize" any sales.
Post edited by SimsILikeSims on
I have been playing The Sims since 2001, when Livin Large came out. My avatar deliberately looks like Chris Roomies from TS1.
Most games with subscription services are MMOs where the subscription gains you access to areas of the game, like worlds in Sims. Some also allow you to purchase worlds. If you let your subscription lapse your character is only allowed in free sections of the game and those you have actually purchased.
It is hard to see how this would work in Sims because our Sims don't go on adventures to other worlds; they live there. Also Sims expansions include CAS and Build and Buy items. In subscription games these are either free or additional purchases (often microtransactions).
All in all, a subscription based Sims game sounds like a very different experience from what we are familiar with.
Um, actually they do not live in the Realm of Magic. That is a separate area your Sims visit to get spell training and learn potions. If they must do online, it should be a portal like there is to travel to Realm of Magic. I could see subscriber early access to CAS/build-buy items, or exclusive CAS/build-buy items for subscribers.
The main benefit I can see for an online space would be for Simmers to interact directly with other players who are actually online at the same time. Then I suppose there are the millennials and teens who expect to be able to share everything and connect with their friends on social media. However, online spaces like that, are usually unusable for anyone under age 13, and can be unsafe for anyone under age 18. The single player experience is ESSENTIAL for parents who want to share the game with their preteens (age 10-12). Heck, I remember letting my 8 year old cousin have at it with The Sims 1 Livin Large with buy mode only. She enjoyed arranging furniture in the rooms. I also remember letting my 5 year old niece play with Sims 2 with CAS mode only. She was into dressing her Barbies at the time, and loved dressing up the Sims (especially since I had lots of G- and T-rated custom content, and nothing worse). My sister later told me that was perfect for her.
I have been playing The Sims since 2001, when Livin Large came out. My avatar deliberately looks like Chris Roomies from TS1.
I'm wondering if Sims 4 will ever start subscription/ premium service. In other words, pay $4.99 a month, get all DLC. It would not surprise me since we're going to get years of content.
I think that the Sims 5 will almost definitely be subscription based, unfortantely. And if I'm right, then it's big NO THANK YOU from me!
Yes, i've given EA / Maxis a lot of money over the past 20 years, but they are every now and then purchases. Now i only buy with sales as honestly, Sims 4 is lacking and packs don't have much included, these days CC/Mods is where it's at!!! But i can't afford to buy all these games at $40-10 or however much they are on top of a montly subscription service.
We'll never know what Sims 5 will be like if we keep Sims 4 going on forever and ever. What if sims 5 won't be a subscription service? We'll never find out because we keep clinging on to Sims 4.
Will sims 5 be better than Sims 4? Nobody knows because we can't let go of sims 4 and we keep hoping a shallow and buggy game will get better with patches that keep bringing numerous bugs and glitches.
Will Sims 5 be offline like the other Sims games? We'll never know because we are keeping a game with a weak game engine going on and on while problems with the game just keep piling up.
There are quite a few people-including me-who want sims 4 to end already so we can experience Sims 5(something we should of had after 6 years of sims 4).
I know people really like Sims 4, but it's not going to disappear into thin air whenever Sims 5 comes out. Can you imagine if sims 2 fans kept Sims 2 going on forever and ever? We would of never had open world or Create-a-Style,and we would of never had Sims 3. We would of been stuck in the Endless sims 2 Era.
Some of us want a much better LifeSim game,and we don't even know if Paralives or the life sim from Paradox will even be made..sure we may havwe Animal Crossing or Tomodachi Life or the upcoming Miitopia,but those games really are not the same thing as a Sims game. I know we'll be told to "Go back to Sims 3" and "Stop playing Sims 4/Don't buy Sims 4 then." We stopped playing a long time ago when we got sick of dealing with all the problems Sims 4 keeps having. We just want to move on to Sims 5 already,and let other enjoy Sims 4 while we play Sims 5. We want EA to move on to Sims 5 already,because Sims 4 has already been around for more than 6 years.
We'll never know what Sims 5 will be like if we keep Sims 4 going on forever and ever. What if sims 5 won't be a subscription service? We'll never find out because we keep clinging on to Sims 4.
Will sims 5 be better than Sims 4? Nobody knows because we can't let go of sims 4 and we keep hoping a shallow and buggy game will get better with patches that keep bringing numerous bugs and glitches.
Will Sims 5 be offline like the other Sims games? We'll never know because we are keeping a game with a weak game engine going on and on while problems with the game just keep piling up.
There are quite a few people-including me-who want sims 4 to end already so we can experience Sims 5(something we should of had after 6 years of sims 4).
I know people really like Sims 4, but it's not going to disappear into thin air whenever Sims 5 comes out. Can you imagine if sims 2 fans kept Sims 2 going on forever and ever? We would of never had open world or Create-a-Style,and we would of never had Sims 3. We would of been stuck in the Endless sims 2 Era.
Some of us want a much better LifeSim game,and we don't even know if Paralives or the life sim from Paradox will even be made..sure we may havwe Animal Crossing or Tomodachi Life or the upcoming Miitopia,but those games really are not the same thing as a Sims game. I know we'll be told to "Go back to Sims 3" and "Stop playing Sims 4/Don't buy Sims 4 then." We stopped playing a long time ago when we got sick of dealing with all the problems Sims 4 keeps having. We just want to move on to Sims 5 already,and let other enjoy Sims 4 while we play Sims 5. We want EA to move on to Sims 5 already,because Sims 4 has already been around for more than 6 years.
I totally agree. As much as I LOVE TS3, I know that some day, a newer version of Windows 10 (or newer iteration) will someday be unable to play the game. So we need a new iteration to carry on from TS3 and add back TS2 features and the working features of TS4 (building features mostly).
It's time for people and EA/Maxis to let go of Sims 4 already. Let go of Sims 4 and embrace the future. Let us enjoy Sims 5..if we keep clinging on to Sims 4,we'll never find out what Sims 5 will be like because we're keeping ourselves stuck in the Endless Sims 4 era.
We'll never know what Sims 5 will be like if we keep Sims 4 going on forever and ever. What if sims 5 won't be a subscription service? We'll never find out because we keep clinging on to Sims 4.
Will sims 5 be better than Sims 4? Nobody knows because we can't let go of sims 4 and we keep hoping a shallow and buggy game will get better with patches that keep bringing numerous bugs and glitches.
Will Sims 5 be offline like the other Sims games? We'll never know because we are keeping a game with a weak game engine going on and on while problems with the game just keep piling up.
There are quite a few people-including me-who want sims 4 to end already so we can experience Sims 5(something we should of had after 6 years of sims 4).
I know people really like Sims 4, but it's not going to disappear into thin air whenever Sims 5 comes out. Can you imagine if sims 2 fans kept Sims 2 going on forever and ever? We would of never had open world or Create-a-Style,and we would of never had Sims 3. We would of been stuck in the Endless sims 2 Era.
Some of us want a much better LifeSim game,and we don't even know if Paralives or the life sim from Paradox will even be made..sure we may havwe Animal Crossing or Tomodachi Life or the upcoming Miitopia,but those games really are not the same thing as a Sims game. I know we'll be told to "Go back to Sims 3" and "Stop playing Sims 4/Don't buy Sims 4 then." We stopped playing a long time ago when we got sick of dealing with all the problems Sims 4 keeps having. We just want to move on to Sims 5 already,and let other enjoy Sims 4 while we play Sims 5. We want EA to move on to Sims 5 already,because Sims 4 has already been around for more than 6 years.
Amen. lol People are still saying TS4 has a lot of potential. When I would argue the game should have already gotten all the things they have been dreaming about since it's had a long run of seven years. In Sept. it starts it's eighth year...good grief how many does it need to fill some people's wishes. I'm with you, no need to spend more money on packs that aren't actually adding what people have requested and or even expected after seven years and $1000.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
What I want to know is if it's open world. After cows/llamas are tied to shed and dogs/cats we can't control take up house spaces, I'm not as happy. I'm thinking if it's a new world, hopefully it will be open, used with better systems/computers so we can have a great game, and has the ability to put many animals on your farm without tying them down or taking up spaces.
Subscription. IDK. I guess I would have to decide when it comes up. Losing everything if you couldn't pay every month? That doesn't seem very fair. Many young people might not be able to do that.
Rumors have spread that TS5 could possibly be revealed this year.
Yes, I've encountered some rumours about that too, but I'm not sure if I believe it as I'm sure the pandemic must have set them back, but who knows, maybe.
Comments
The Sims 5 sub is probably gonna have a workshop like on Steam where you can upload mods/cc and easily update them without having to go through thirdparty websites to look out for an update..
Maybe an option to have a much easier tool to do your own CC with "sculpting" furniture or something like that? and put it on the gallery.
x Online worlds... there are some possibilities what to do with subs..
Its kinda old to always have to buy the must-have packs like Seasons and Pets... so who knows... maybe a part of the sub too to lol.
I dont trust EAvil
i hate you ea, even if this is a rumor i know you're considering this and i hope it flops and you wasted the money
If it’s subscribe to get all the packs at once without paying for them individually with EA Play, then I really don’t care. Do what they want.
I don't know what the obsession is with this unwanted and failed market plan, but they need to let it go or face losing majority of the sims fan base. If they no longer have passion for the sims, then ending it or passing it on would be a better option than just killing it off.
There's no way I'm paying Ea to watch a sim eat, 🐸🐸🐸🐸, and sleep or occasional sleep around with other sims. Ea isn't hulu/netflix, I already bought the game from you once, I refuse to keep paying a company just to continue play. Forget it.
The idea of a subscription, I don't trust in the slightest. To make it easy to mod sounds nice, but that sounds like EA is leaving players to create most of the content for free, and yet subscribe to The Sims to upload and download it.
It doesn't take a genius to realise this is a worrying direction to take additional content in. Keep in mind that things change in development, sometimes quite late, or that it may just be some kind of spinoff, but it's important EA realises we don't like it.
I think at the moment you only get 10% off buying new packs if you have a subscription on Origin. You still have to buy the packs and don't get them all on subscription. I doubt if that will change.
It is hard to see how this would work in Sims because our Sims don't go on adventures to other worlds; they live there. Also Sims expansions include CAS and Build and Buy items. In subscription games these are either free or additional purchases (often microtransactions).
All in all, a subscription based Sims game sounds like a very different experience from what we are familiar with.
When you pointed out the above, it just had me puzzled. In the previous iterations, pets have always been able to interact with items. This is not new. But TS3 pets had even more features because you can control them, have their own careers and their own wishes and lifetime goals and rewards, fall in love, etc.
I agree about subscription and online features - I don't want them either in The Sims 5. It would be two of the reasons (though not the only ones) why I would pass up on the next iteration.
If Sims 5 goes online or multiplayer at all, I hope this will only be done by accessing a separate online space, through a portal like how you visit the Sims 4 Realm of Magic area where the magic teachers are. This would allow for cheats, fan-made content and mods, but only within the single-player area of the game, and allow for a more defined separation of the online and offline space. Also, if the player's internet connection went down but the power did not go out, or the wi-fi connection was fading in and out, the game would still be playable without using cellular data. (Especially since they STILL don't have much in the way of USB modems for desktop computers and laptops that access cellular networks.)
That way, if someone has too many issues with the online version they can still play their game offline. I still don't like the idea of splitting the development costs between online and offline single-player because I believe the offline single-player experience would be worse for it.
However, the online area could include things like player vs. player real time build challenges or fashion contests, a chat area, a performance area to show off a Sim's or player's skills, special limited time events, additional mini-games, maybe a sponsor location (no annoying popups, visit it for free Sims stuff or free online area stuff from sponsors and get sponsor offers, if you don't like it you don't have to visit it), advertiser's area and limited time events.
The problem with the way Sims 3 showtime attempted multiplayer was that it was one player visiting another player's single-player space, and the other player had to accept the invite. Nobody should visit anyone else's single-player space. Plus that way, there would be no worries about who had which packs.
One advantage of a subscription service, though I hate the idea, is that it could include new content as it is released. This would generally be CAS items and build-buy objects.
However, I would ONLY want a subscription service if
(1) the subscription was optional to play the game, but you get EXTRA perks, including initial perks and monthly perks for subscribing. And by optional, I don't mean just on a trial basis. Many mobile games become unplayable over time, usually because they insanely increase the difficulty, if you don't spend real money to play. Or they turn into pesterware. That's when I simply stop playing them. (Some of them, even if you do spend money on the game, do not even remove the mandatory ads or remove the pesterware screens. Those, even if I spent any money on the game, I usually often quit the game soon after I realize these are still the case.) On the other hand, OPTIONAL ads and surveys that provide in-game benefits I do not mind as much unless they become required to advance in the game.
(2) The money from the subscription service was ONLY used for improving the Sims games (including hiring and training costs, Sims programming teams budgets and QA and Sims team salaries, server costs, existing customer communications (such as forums, surveys, interviews with players, changes and updates to the game), but not including radio or TV advertising or social media - marketing is a money pit that should never be used as an excuse for not improving the game), not other EA games, unless this subscription was INCLUDED at no charge with EA play.
Why should we pay for something else that we don't even play? If they do include it with EA Play, by the way, there is really NO EXCUSE for not adding The Sims Complete Collection and The Sims 2 Ultimate Collection to EA Play as subscription games. Whoever said this was a bad marketing idea has NO IDEA what they are talking about. They probably said it would "cannibalize" the sales of other Sims products, such as Sims 3 and Sims 4. But they overlook just how many players would actually JOIN EA play just to get access to TS1 and TS2. Both of those are old games: they would need to be updated to work on Windows 10. But GOG can do it, so EA surely should be able to do it. Otherwise, they should simply let GOG have at it and let them add them to GOG's catalog, or if not GOG, then Steam. Steam actually still stocks several titles that are incompatible with newer computers, and if it is incompatible, it certainly could not "cannibalize" any sales.
Um, actually they do not live in the Realm of Magic. That is a separate area your Sims visit to get spell training and learn potions. If they must do online, it should be a portal like there is to travel to Realm of Magic. I could see subscriber early access to CAS/build-buy items, or exclusive CAS/build-buy items for subscribers.
The main benefit I can see for an online space would be for Simmers to interact directly with other players who are actually online at the same time. Then I suppose there are the millennials and teens who expect to be able to share everything and connect with their friends on social media. However, online spaces like that, are usually unusable for anyone under age 13, and can be unsafe for anyone under age 18. The single player experience is ESSENTIAL for parents who want to share the game with their preteens (age 10-12). Heck, I remember letting my 8 year old cousin have at it with The Sims 1 Livin Large with buy mode only. She enjoyed arranging furniture in the rooms. I also remember letting my 5 year old niece play with Sims 2 with CAS mode only. She was into dressing her Barbies at the time, and loved dressing up the Sims (especially since I had lots of G- and T-rated custom content, and nothing worse). My sister later told me that was perfect for her.
I think that the Sims 5 will almost definitely be subscription based, unfortantely.
Will sims 5 be better than Sims 4? Nobody knows because we can't let go of sims 4 and we keep hoping a shallow and buggy game will get better with patches that keep bringing numerous bugs and glitches.
Will Sims 5 be offline like the other Sims games? We'll never know because we are keeping a game with a weak game engine going on and on while problems with the game just keep piling up.
There are quite a few people-including me-who want sims 4 to end already so we can experience Sims 5(something we should of had after 6 years of sims 4).
I know people really like Sims 4, but it's not going to disappear into thin air whenever Sims 5 comes out. Can you imagine if sims 2 fans kept Sims 2 going on forever and ever? We would of never had open world or Create-a-Style,and we would of never had Sims 3. We would of been stuck in the Endless sims 2 Era.
Some of us want a much better LifeSim game,and we don't even know if Paralives or the life sim from Paradox will even be made..sure we may havwe Animal Crossing or Tomodachi Life or the upcoming Miitopia,but those games really are not the same thing as a Sims game. I know we'll be told to "Go back to Sims 3" and "Stop playing Sims 4/Don't buy Sims 4 then." We stopped playing a long time ago when we got sick of dealing with all the problems Sims 4 keeps having. We just want to move on to Sims 5 already,and let other enjoy Sims 4 while we play Sims 5. We want EA to move on to Sims 5 already,because Sims 4 has already been around for more than 6 years.
I totally agree. As much as I LOVE TS3, I know that some day, a newer version of Windows 10 (or newer iteration) will someday be unable to play the game. So we need a new iteration to carry on from TS3 and add back TS2 features and the working features of TS4 (building features mostly).
Amen. lol People are still saying TS4 has a lot of potential.
Subscription. IDK. I guess I would have to decide when it comes up. Losing everything if you couldn't pay every month? That doesn't seem very fair. Many young people might not be able to do that.
Yes, I've encountered some rumours about that too, but I'm not sure if I believe it as I'm sure the pandemic must have set them back, but who knows, maybe.