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Olympus UI and Multiplayer Code in The Sims 4

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  • luthienrisingluthienrising Posts: 37,617 Member
    edited May 2017
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. Obviously, not everyone likes every Sims version; that's just not even possible, we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.
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  • Renamed2002180839Renamed2002180839 Posts: 3,444 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. , we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.

    I like every sims version. I like the Sims 4, some parts of it I love but I'm just not ever going to pretend mistakes weren't made and I doubt I'll ever except misdirection during concept development as an excuse good enough to simply ignore the mistakes, either. All the talking in the world about resource limits and time constraints really doesn't make much difference to the average consumer of which I am one.
  • Renamed2002180839Renamed2002180839 Posts: 3,444 Member
    Lol part of the quote deletes when I tried to bold it. (Shrug) you get the point, ha.
  • brendhan21brendhan21 Posts: 3,427 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. , we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.

    I like every sims version. I like the Sims 4, some parts of it I love but I'm just not ever going to pretend mistakes weren't made and I doubt I'll ever except misdirection during concept development as an excuse good enough to simply ignore the mistakes, either. All the talking in the world about resource limits and time constraints really doesn't make much difference to the average consumer of which I am one.

    i agree but hey if we bought it apparently the mistakes do not mater in the long run cuz if they did mater we would not buy it. see people have a simple mindset of if the mistakes bother you so much do not buy it and if they dont bother you then buy it just do not complain about them.
  • GoldenBuffyGoldenBuffy Posts: 4,025 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Thanks for this @TwistedMexican , but I kinda wish I hadn't read it. lol Because it makes me even madder, because the majority of simmers didn't jump on board TSO when they gave us free copies way back when. We simply pleaded with them to never try to make the Sims an online game ever again, and yet that was the whole intent with Sims 4. Really sad, because this is what we are left with today. A very limiting game because they had a "vision".

    the sims online was not a bad game its just i cant exactly explain it it just did not reach its full pointenital but yeah thinking that creating a sims 4 game online was a good idea was a bad idea from the start and something they should not have tired. and yet now we have people saying well hey see its not their fault they cant create a create a style and open world in this game its just the game wont let them, except yeah its their fault for creating the game engine this way in the first place.

    I know what TSO was/is(?). lol I played it for about a week or so when it first launched. They sent me a free cd in the mail. I played with my friends from another forum. It was an okay game, but not what I was looking for or even wanted in The Sims. Sims was never meant to be played in an online format as an RPG or an MMO. And we explained this in many posts on the old Sims forum with the Maxiod monkeys. And they said they understood.

    Then comes Sims 4. You can clearly see the direction they where headed, and the only reason why Sims 4 is not online is because of the who fiasco with SimCity. Even with Sims 3, the whole online aspect is meh to me. After I played Showtime for a week, using Simport was something I never cared for after that.

    It's this very reason why the game is so limited. They always say they are "listening", but if they truly had been then they never would have tired to make Sims online. They could have spent their time rebuilding a stable game engine that could run an open world without issues (thing the GTA series), streamlines the CASt, Build a World tool, and so many other aspects. I was expecting a truly spectacular Sims game with Sims 4, and yet, we are left with what we have. I will admit, it's a fun game - now with massive GPs, Sps, EPs, and the like - and if you watch my "Not So Berry Challenge" you can see I am having fun. But I just want the freedom and creativity we use to have. It's not there, and I really hope they back track, take from Sims 2 and Sims 3 when/if they give us a Sims 5. :D
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  • GoldenBuffyGoldenBuffy Posts: 4,025 Member
    Writin_Reg wrote: »
    Well if you guys recall the former CEO basically commanded all EA games go online - it was one of the many things about him that infuriated me. Go back and look at many of the interviews he did and that is all he talked about. So can we really blame the Sims team to complying with the vision that quite clearly to me was J.R.'s?

    By Maxis making the mobile - a separate game actually was an ideal solution if you ask me - as it should have been to start with - with both Sim City and Sims 4 - but of course JR was all about a single game doing it all whether or not the players wanted such things. Because of JR's many interviews many of us long before we even heard there was going to be a New Sim City and a Sim's 4, was on the forums speaking lengthily how we hoped neither was online and that we were not having it. I remember so many discussion on the Sims 3 forums - so when Sim City came out and was online as we suspected - we seriously went a bit ballistic fearing our beloved Sims were also being made online. We were right then - more than we realized.

    To me it is even clearer now that by making Sims 4 mobile is actually a good thing - they get their online and the Sims everywhere thing and they leave our game the single player it was always meant to be. It's just too bad for us they didn't do this to start with before they started work on Sims 4....

    See, this is all news to me! I was so busy just playing Sims 2 and Sims 3 I had no idea this was all going on. I think after the TSO fiasco, I figured they would listen to the paying customers. lol Silly me I guess. Thanks for this info!
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  • GoldenBuffyGoldenBuffy Posts: 4,025 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. Obviously, not everyone likes every Sims version; that's just not even possible, we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.

    But see, I do like every version. No, scratch that I LOVE Sims, Sims 2, and Sims 3, and I LIKE Sims 4. But they didn't move on, they moved back. Taking away things that actually advanced the game (CASt, open world, CARS, sims that are flat and one dimensional, etc.) has detracted in my enjoyment of this version of the game.
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  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    @jackjack_k see it is real.

    I've never not said The Sims 4 was always online...........
  • jusMehjusMeh Posts: 424 Member
    edited May 2017
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    yeah its an interesting read and makes me seriously think they chose a really horrible time to release the sims moible cuz yeah its opening a bunch of can of worms. cuz from what i understand there is no real reason the game in its current state can not handle an a create a style like in the sims 3 and an open world!

    There's no reason why they couldn't add it except for the fact it's the type of thing you need to design from the beginning. The sims 3 objects have several "layers" to them, which allowed you to do things like pick colors for bed sheets, bed frame, etc. The sims 4 objects, because they weren't designed with this feature in mind, use a single texture file. There is no interactive layer for color changes. Every single object would have to be redone to support it at this point.

    Open would could have been done except the core of the game's functionality was designed the way it is currently. It would have probably delayed the release greatly to have rebuild the household data structure and traveling system.

    I know that's not exactly awesome news, but hope that helps explain why it is the way it is.

    it explains why but its not very good i mean it just kind of upsets me a bit. like i am not sure how i am supposed to take comfort in this oh because they made a bad marketing choice we get a shallow game of what could have been.

    You may be taking the whole thing a little too personally. Maxis developed a video game you didn't like. That's it.

    and that changes the fact that they made a poor choice how. they should not have not tired to make the game the way did from the start and now they are in a bit of a tough spot and only because they finally provided vampires and tolders did the game finally become a bit of an improvment for a bunch of people but like vampires and tolders can only add so much. they really need to improve the game alot still. and it should have been great from the start but they made a poor choice and now we are stuck with this shallow game.

    Well, I'm enjoying the game, but I'm not a real simmer. Regardless, does this revelation change anything? You didn't like the game before you knew this, and you don't like it now. I liked the game before and after. None of it is personal. There's no reason to take it as an offense directed toward you specifically. There's no reason to take comfort because there's nothing to be comforted from. You just don't like the game.

    a little bit it just means they made a mistake and now we as the customors are paying the price. and to be honest it does not look like they are doing much to fix it other then tolders and vampires and now maybe pets which yeah apparently should make everything all better.

    Paying the price? If you don't like it then don't buy it! And never buy something before you know what's in the proverbial box. It really isn't so dramatic.

    i like elements of the game and those elements make it worth buying and playing for me but at the same time i also think its lacking in so much stuff. there is stuff i do like but the stuff i do like is not enough for me to focus on and not notice there are other things i do not like.

    Once again I am getting the suspicion that I'm being trolled. Going to back away slowly now.

    amusing coming from someone like you, who goes into nearly every thread just like this one, and then you -and those LIKE you- proceed to troll the people who post, and y'all try to derail the thread, much like you are doing at this very moment - and all because you cannot handle someone disliking your fave!!111 game. It's hilarious! So why don't YOU relax? Not everyone is gonna looove your fave game, yanno. So relax (just like you're always telling other people to do) just relax, dude, it's not a federal case. Really, it's not. And no, you also did not "back away" like you claimed you would, you simply derailed this thread even more so. Wow. Yet - it's typical. So very typical.

    And YES tons of people WERE RIGHT about Olympus. Yes, we knew it all along and didn't need a thread to tell us this stuff. Thanks @TwistedMexican anyhow, though. :D Guess the skeptics were more likely to believe the fact coming from you. ;)
  • simgirl1010simgirl1010 Posts: 35,701 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. , we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.

    I like every sims version. I like the Sims 4, some parts of it I love but I'm just not ever going to pretend mistakes weren't made and I doubt I'll ever except misdirection during concept development as an excuse good enough to simply ignore the mistakes, either. All the talking in the world about resource limits and time constraints really doesn't make much difference to the average consumer of which I am one.

    i agree but hey if we bought it apparently the mistakes do not mater in the long run cuz if they did mater we would not buy it. see people have a simple mindset of if the mistakes bother you so much do not buy it and if they dont bother you then buy it just do not complain about them.

    I think the point some are making is yes it was a mistake from our point of view to continue with such a limited framework but nothing can be done about it now except hope that if and when the next version comes along lessons will have been learned about what the community wants to see. As for the Sims 4 we're two and a half years in and probably won't ever see open world, cast, or terrain tools. It's now your decision whether you can accept that and try to enjoy what the game does have to offer.
  • jusMehjusMeh Posts: 424 Member
    edited May 2017
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Writin_Reg wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Writin_Reg wrote: »
    Well if you guys recall the former CEO basically commanded all EA games go online - it was one of the many things about him that infuriated me. Go back and look at many of the interviews he did and that is all he talked about. So can we really blame the Sims team to complying with the vision that quite clearly to me was J.R.'s?

    By Maxis making the mobile - a separate game actually was an ideal solution if you ask me - as it should have been to start with - with both Sim City and Sims 4 - but of course JR was all about a single game doing it all whether or not the players wanted such things. Because of JR's many interviews many of us long before we even heard there was going to be a New Sim City and a Sim's 4 was on the forums speaking lengthly how we hoped neither was online and that we were not having it. I remember so many discussion on the Sims 3 forums - so when Sim City came out and was online as we suspected - we seriously went a bit ballistic fearing our beloved Sims were also being made online. We were right then - more than we realized.

    To me it even clearer now that by making Sims 4 mobile is actually a good thing - they get their online and the Sims everywhere thing and they leave our game the single player it was always meant to be. It's just too bad for us they didn't do this to start with before they started work on Sims 4....

    yes this is what annoys me the most. i kind of understand the situation they were in at the time. but i wish they again found this soultion before working on the sims 4 which yeah has created the game we have today which while it has elements i like and enjoy it also has more stuff that makes it overall a disapointment.

    Exactly.

    glad you understand exactly where i am coming from cuz apparently someone is making me feel like i should not feel like the game has elements i like and still makes it overall disapointment cuz i should eather focus on the stuff i do enjoy 100% or not buy the game according to some people.

    Just put the trolls on 'Ignore', and yes I need to follow my own advice. All they do is suck the life out of every thread they dislike or every thread expressing dislike of their fave game. *rolls eyes* They're not even worth acknowledging, j/s. People like that claim that people like us are 'broken records' in the complaint dept., well they're the same exact way, saying the exact same things in every thread like "I like this feature that YOU dislike" etc, etc., it's all nothing more than nonsense ad nauseum. People who bought this crap game have EVERY single right to complain, EVERY right. Period.

    edit: In fact, let me take this a step farther: Post: "I hate that there's no transportation in this game. I want cars."
    Post B: "I hate transportation; I do NOT want cars ever. It's fine the way it is."
    Post: "I wish there were toddlers! (before toddlers were put in the game)
    Post B: "I hated toddlers in Sims 3! I don't want toddlers in this game!!"
    Post: "I wish..."
    Post B: "I don't want.... I love it the way it is!!!"

    You get my drift.

    Oh, but then there's the Open World argument: "I want open world w/out loading screens!"
    Post B: "I HATED open world in Sims 3!!! It was BUGGY and stupid and took 6 years for the Sims to get anywhere, and there were NOTHING but rabbit holes!!!1111 and I LOVE the loading screens!!!!"

    Again - ad nauseum. Nothing but the Sunk Cost Fallacy, among other things.
  • brendhan21brendhan21 Posts: 3,427 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. , we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.

    I like every sims version. I like the Sims 4, some parts of it I love but I'm just not ever going to pretend mistakes weren't made and I doubt I'll ever except misdirection during concept development as an excuse good enough to simply ignore the mistakes, either. All the talking in the world about resource limits and time constraints really doesn't make much difference to the average consumer of which I am one.

    i agree but hey if we bought it apparently the mistakes do not mater in the long run cuz if they did mater we would not buy it. see people have a simple mindset of if the mistakes bother you so much do not buy it and if they dont bother you then buy it just do not complain about them.

    I think the point some are making is yes it was a mistake from our point of view to continue with such a limited framework but nothing can be done about it now except hope that if and when the next version comes along lessons will have been learned about what the community wants to see. As for the Sims 4 we're two and a half years in and probably won't ever see open world, cast, or terrain tools. It's now your decision whether you can accept that and try to enjoy what the game does have to offer.

    i sort of agree with you cuz yeah i know nothing will and can be done about it. but i also do not think we should remain slient about it. like to be honest i am not convinced tolders would have gone they way they did if we were silent about it.
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,974 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »

    i sort of agree with you cuz yeah i know nothing will and can be done about it. but i also do not think we should remain slient about it. like to be honest i am not convinced tolders would have gone they way they did if we were silent about it.

    I'm pretty sure that they lied directly to us at one point going "TS4 never was Olympus!" and that's just... Rude. Like why would you do that?
  • CynnaCynna Posts: 2,369 Member
    edited May 2017
    Thanks to the OP for finally confirming what many of us had already suspected.

    This explains why the sims themselves do not have equivalent or greater AI to the Sims that came before. In TS4 the Sims were meant to be avatars. Users were meant to supply the intelligence and the emotion. As a result, these Sims are the most empty to date, no real emotions, no real intelligence, traits that have no genuine affect on game play. It was gimped from the start.

    Thankfully, the release of vampires and toddlers has alleviated some of that emptiness. Hopefully, future packs will continue to il do the same. Unfortunately, more likely than not, we'll be paying for the game to finally become what it should have been from the beginning: Smarter Sims. You rule.
    I3Ml5Om.jpg
  • CiarassimsCiarassims Posts: 3,547 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    @jackjack_k see it is real.

    I've never not said The Sims 4 was always online...........

    sure
    giphy_1.gif
  • luthienrisingluthienrising Posts: 37,617 Member
    edited May 2017
    mirta000 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »

    i sort of agree with you cuz yeah i know nothing will and can be done about it. but i also do not think we should remain slient about it. like to be honest i am not convinced tolders would have gone they way they did if we were silent about it.

    I'm pretty sure that they lied directly to us at one point going "TS4 never was Olympus!" and that's just... Rude. Like why would you do that?

    Did they say that to us, Maxis, officially? I don't recall seeing it. If they did, according to what @TwistedMexican is saying, they would be right: Olympus was a code name for a UI system. The UI system was being used in the previous version of the game and in what ended up being the new version of it. The UI system could have ended up being used (and tweaked) for multiple projects, as it sits independently. Having a separate code name for it would make sense internally.
    EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    Hello everyone, just popping in to cash in my "I told you so." Not that that's surprising; get the sense the majority of us suspected this, it was just a select few insisted on defending Sims 4 and claiming Olympus wasn't Sims 4, and well, now we know for sure.
    mirta000 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »

    i sort of agree with you cuz yeah i know nothing will and can be done about it. but i also do not think we should remain slient about it. like to be honest i am not convinced tolders would have gone they way they did if we were silent about it.

    I'm pretty sure that they lied directly to us at one point going "TS4 never was Olympus!" and that's just... Rude. Like why would you do that?

    Oh man...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWdD206eSv0

    Posts like this are what make me once again insist that the community as a whole - even the most skeptic or critical of us - need to be aware of how companies work. Lemme clarify upfront that I too do not recall their exact words when addressing this issue, but I would say it also makes no difference. At the very least, this is something people clearly cared about, because here we are in 2017 and we're still discussing it. EA/Maxis could've ended this discussion three years ago and yet they chose not to. Why? Because ending the discussion doesn't benefit them and can infact harm them.

    If EA/Maxis would lie to us....? Indeed, that would be a tad bold. You try not to be caught in a lie, because being caught just looks bad for the company image and makes people trust you less on future statements. As I said, I cannot recall if they did fully bold-face lie, but I have my doubts they did simply because that's bad PR. Anyone that cares to look though, there's been a number of discussions of the topic on this very forum with users defending that Sims 4 wasn't Olympus, citing "evidence" of such, so I bet if someone wanted they could go back and catch a lie, if it exists. If they truly did bold-face lie, I imagine someone bet we'd never get evidence to the contrary, and well....bad bet in retrospect, but hindsight is 20/20.

    If EA/Maxis would purposefully mislead us...? I mean, this should be a given. This should be a "well duh" situation. And that's not to say EA/Maxis are particularly bad or malicious or something; no, I would expect this from any company large enough to have a PR branch. Great current example is that SimGuruMegs recently commented that after release of Sims Mobile, she doesn't know if the Sims 4 team is now bigger or smaller, but feels "about the same" as before. If she wanted that answer, she could find it or find someone that knows the answer. Doing a headcount is not hard. The truth is probably that one, she would get in a lot of trouble for telling us the answer because it isn't a great one (or could cause potential for false concern from us), and two, someone working in PR probably reviewed her tweets before they were even sent, screening them for anything that seemed like it could harm the company. (or she herself understands PR or there's rather clear outlines on what she cannot say) People like ourselves would perhaps like to imagine that Megs is just a normal worker JUST LIKE YOU!!!11!! and she just comments about whatever she feels like with no worries or restrictions, but no, there was probably some degree of regulation to what she could tweet, either via someone proof-reading her comments beforehand OR a rather thorough policy outlining what she can and can't say. All this highlights is that statements by employees - yes - will often be somewhat calculated. Should be a given, but I often feel people forget this.

    Another example in another thread is I pointed out that Sims 4's self-described LEAD ANIMATOR was moved to the mobile team and away from Sims 4, and someone replied that for all we know, they now have a new worker that's more qualified or the like. The thing is though that this is unlikely; if there's good news that speaks optimistically of Sims 4, PR has a direct interest in telling us. Telling us = boosted consumer morale and perhaps additional sales, so of course they would. The silence about who the replacement is while they instead tell us they moved a lead animator....? Well, it's probably because the reality is either "meh" (entirely new worker they've yet to test and see if they're good or not) or bad. (downgrade)

    You ask why they would do that, but the answer is obvious and right there in front of you: money. A company is designed to make money, often at any cost. Again, this isn't me trying to paint EA/Maxis as particularly greedy or something, this is just the reality of the world we live in and the standard for many companies.

    If you want to understand a company's thought process, just think as pragmatically as possible. Does it benefit them to tell us that Sims 4 is a gutted online game, built on an engine that isn't ideal and was never the first choice for a single-player experience? Of course not, that scares us off and presents Sims 4 as inferior to 2 and 3. Solution? Don't tell us lol, pretend everything is great. There's a risk we'll find out, but simply surrendering the truth to us immediately would just be them surrendering a bad point of Sims 4 that they might be able to bury; why not at least try? While we may be sitting here upset at that news now, imagine the state of Sims 4 if they had confessed to this at release.

    Or let's say people are feeling upset and dissatisfied with the product, troubled by the slow release rate of EPs. Solution? Comment that it may be possible that Sims 4's development will last longer than usual. That this possibility exists is always technically true, and such a statement makes no direct promise that it will actually happen. As such, it's a completely safe statement to make; even if Sims 4 ended at the three year mark and people were angry, their PR department could just rightfully point out that they made no such promise it would, even though people are probably right to suspect it was the company's intention to mislead us and encourage us to stick to Sims 4. Recently on this very subject, Drake commented that "The Sims 4 is still going strong and we have no plans to stop development anytime soon, I've stated this many times previously." Ok, but what's the context? What is "soon?" She fed us ZERO tangible or concrete information, yet people feel reassured! (yep, that's PR!) I mean after all, we're currently voting on a stuff pack that will be released in 2018, so even if that stuff pack were the last bit of Sims 4 content ever made (calm down, I doubt it is), that's not "soon" at all. There's not really a whole lot to deduce from her statement, because if Sims 4 were to hypothetically come to an abrupt end at the start of 2018, well when people act outraged then EA/Maxis can defend themselves by pointing out that statement was technically true. Such a statement purposefully enourages optimism and wishful thinking, but it lets you fill in the blanks so that any unjustified optimism is more or less your fault, with no direct evidence allowing you to pinpoint their exact intentions. Even now someone may point out I cannot know for certain that EA/Maxis has intended to mislead us with those statements, and they'd be right. The PR department would be doing a poor job otherwise lol. The only reason I'm so confident in what I say is because it aligns with the exact logical, pragmatic reasoning that companies so love.

    And again I wanna clarify, I'm not trying to paint Drake or any other PR workers poorly. I know some people would have the realization that a PR manager perhaps isn't entirely transparent with us and just get mad at that person. Thing is, again, if people took out their anger on the PR workers themselves, then they're failing to understand that those individuals are simply doing their jobs. Let's say for example that a certain worker on the Sims PR team were actively caught in a lie regarding Olympus and people got mad at them. I have no doubt EA would be more than willing to scapegoat that person and fire/re-assign them elsewhere to appease people and give the impression that things have changed, but their replacement would more or less act in the EXACT same fashion. People would be kidding themselves if they thought the blame was on any one individual; no, it's on company policy. Do not focus on the cog in the machine and blame the cog before replacing it; look at the machine as a whole and realize that ANY cog put in that position would act exactly the same due to the way the machine is built.

    I've said this all before and I'm sure I sound like a broken record to some, but it is a drastic mistake to act as though this company or it's workers are your friends or that ANY of them are looking out for you. No, of course they're probably not actively trying to harm you either; I'm sure they're fine people. However, those very same fine people need to put food on the table, and EA/Maxis has a set of conditions they need their workers to follow in order to get that food, and those conditions do not always look out for our best interests.

    All and all, the lesson is skepticism, the lesson is to scrutinize the things EA/Maxis or any of it's employees tell you, the lesson is to always review a statement for ways it could be technically true, and the lesson is that no, they're not your friends, no matter how many livestream previews they do where they try and look all happy and like playing the new pack is so much fun.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • luthienrisingluthienrising Posts: 37,617 Member
    edited May 2017
    @DeservedCriticism On that note, you might want to review the statements about staff moving to the new product. None suggest that they were moved. You're reading that into it. There is no indication in statements whose choice it was that the moves happen. The norm within creative software firms with EA's sort of structure is that unless a division is being rapidly wound down or changed (e.g., Bioware in Montreal, which is shifting from development to support), internal moves are made when employees want to make them: employees can take available internal opportunities to challenge themselves on a new product. Do you have reason to think that the norm was not the case here?

    I get that you distrust all corporations because they want to make money. I have to say, as someone whose income depends on corporations maintaining profitability so they don't go bankrupt and can't pay me, I have a really hard time seeing them as instrinsically not trustworthy because making money is part of what they do. And I can't see how it follows that they must be being deceitful to you because they have a profit motive. Do you actually not believe that a company can be honest and still profitable?

    (one-coffee typo fix. Think I'll just leave the rest of the one-coffee posts as they are)
    Post edited by luthienrising on
    EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    @DeservedCriticism On that note, you might want to review the statements about staff moving to the new product. None suggest that they were moved. You're reading that into it. There is no indication in statements whose choice it was that the moves happen. The norm within creative software firms with EA's sort of structure is that unless a division is being rapidly wound down or changed (e.g., Bioware in Montreal, which is shifting from development to support), internal moves are made when employees want to make them: employees can take available internal opportunities to challenge themselves on a new product. Do you have reason to think that the norm was not the case here?

    I get that you distrust all corporations because they want to make money. I have to say, as someone whose income depends on corporations maintaining profitability so they don't go bankrupt and can't pay me, I have a really hard time seeing them as instrinsically not trustworthy because making money is part of what they do. And I can't see how it follows that they must be being deceitful to you because they have a profit motive. Do you actually not believe that a company can be honest and still profitable?

    (one-coffee typo fix. Think I'll just leave the rest of the one-coffee posts as they are)

    Do you know what Occam's Razor is? It's the philosophy that the simplest explanation is often the correct one.

    The reason you're not seeing me tackle your arguments as thoroughly as I once might is both a matter of me being exhausted with such repetitive exchanges after some time away from the Sims 4 and these forums, and a matter of Occam's Razor. Your replies can always be summed up as "but what if." Yes, exactly. You're going out of your way to dig two steps further and say "but what if" in some theorized scenario where we have zero evidence for it. I actually almost included a snippet where I said "best case scenario the employee requested the move themselves for whatever reason," but I opted to leave it out because we simply have zero evidence of this, OR even if they stated "they requested the move," they could easily do so while leaving something out like "because it pays much better." It doesn't really add much, just additional speculation.

    At the end of the day, the most rational reviewal of the situation seems to be to simply take what we have at face value and not second-guess. My issue with your arguments is you're showing a CLEAR bias in favor of this game in that you always always ALWAYS dig two steps deeper and ask "but what if" the moment a story is bad for the game. The foundation for your argument is not that there's sound evidence for this (sorry, but such a move being common in the business world is not evidence, just like people commonly drinking coffee in the morning is not evidence that random SimGuru X does the same), but rather that you want to believe this news isn't bad in some way so you seek excuses. To me, when that's your foundation, then we've nothing to gain from this discussion and your argument has flawed reasoning from the get-go.

    And before you try to flip this; yes, there is a difference between your foundation and mine. Sims 4 had pre-release rumors suggesting it was initally intended to be online. We have footage suggesting online gameplay was on the way. The blemishes on release day made sense in the context of the game needing to be reworked after SimCity bombed. We had direct evidence regarding this particular scenario, not "it's common that this happens in companies sometimes." It may not have been conclusive evidence, of course, but given circumstances it's just naive to think EA/Maxis would ever provide us with conclusive evidence regarding anything that looks bad for them. Sure enough, I'm here speaking up because we finally have the final puzzle piece for a puzzle I've long suspected the answer to. And not only that, it's completion supports the idea that this company is not very transparent with us about going-ons in the company....nor is this the only piece of evidence for that. I mean remember the 5M badge? HEAVILY implied that thing was not regarding 5M copies sold for Sims 4, especially by recent statements that they likely recently achieved that milestone. (SimGuruLynsday made those, I believe?) But back when the 5M button was shown, did they disperse those rumors? No, they allowed those to exist, with Drake only subtlely hinting it was nothing but fan assumption, likely for the sake of absolving the team of any guilt if we ran wild with that (false) assumption. Why not just tell us outright it was a false conclusion? Oh right, cause it's good for their image if people think they sold that many copies in the first year or so. Yeah, they're not exactly transparent here and will gladly mislead when it suits their own goals of sales and satisfaction.

    In short, your bias is showing. Are your theories possible? Yes, anything is. We're working with limited info here. But correct me if I'm wrong, once upon a time the "but what if" statements were being applied to the idea that Sims 4 is NOT Olympus, and well...here we are. Why argue against all evidence just for the sake of a possibility, instead of trying to follow along with the evidence we do have and rationalize it? That's right, because you're bias, and your bias is blinding you.

    I believe in learning from history, not repeating it, and yes I see this as a perfect moment to stop with the unneccesary stretches of the imagination just to try and excuse what we're seeing. These forums were revamped to put mobile on a pedestal. We theorized Bowling got delayed so as to not get in the way of Mass Effect Andromeda, and now a GP promised to release in "Spring 2017" is probably about to just barely meet that deadline as if it were pushed back for the mobile release, something Drake even commented on. (user asked if we'd get info on the GP and she said they try not to make announcements for seperate games in the same timeframe) For whatever reason unknown to us, their lead animator and a member of their EP team both moved over to mobile, with Megs more or less dodging an opportunity to say if their team has grown or shrunk. We long speculated this game may have less funding or less workers on hand, now we have confirmation that many of the Sims 3's Salt Lake EP staff are now working on mobile and have been doing so conceivably for AT LEAST one year. Very often, the little evidence we have has often been a great indicator of how things are. Of course take it with a grain of salt and be ready to be wrong since we have such limited info, but you're applying waaaaaaaay more than a grain.

    Your argument is effectively "but it's not definitive proof," though your evidence for any other arguments is really weak. We are not in a scenario where we can expect definitive evidence, and as such? Most logical approach is to look at what direction the evidence we have DOES point to the most. Occam's Razor, Occam's Razor, Occam's Razor. And as the evidence stands now? Yes the Sims team regularly misleads you and I, yes the Sims 4 production was "harmed" (not as in damaged, but rather not allowed to be as productive as once possible) by a decision to create a mobile game alongside this one, and yes the Sims 4 is likely on an inferior engine for single-player gameplay. They've clearly made harmful, money-interested decisions for the game in the past, I don't see why you find it so difficult to believe the team may have recently lost some important members to the mobile team (with a downgrade in replacements for us) in an interest of prioritizing the new game. And while this last thought is definitely still in the heavy speculation category, there is absolutely reason to believe that Sims 4's future looks bleak. Not that quality will drop or that it will end abruptly, but rather that it will get a standard production schedule and it's really out of time to improve on things if it retains the current rate of production. We're about to presumably end Year 3 with only 4 expansion packs, and only one year left to get....4-6 more? We're sooooo behind, and many of us have been clinging to the idea Sims 4 would catch up eventually. If this were a poker game though? I'd be doubling down right now on my suspicion this game is halfway finished.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • NeiaNeia Posts: 4,190 Member
    edited May 2017
    @DeservedCriticism
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor and the 5M in the same post, when you went out of your way to find others explanations ('Upon careful inspection the design of the plumbob on the badge doesn't fit ', 'Grey is the color of achievement that haven't been fulfilled yet'), when the most straightforward explanation of a 5M badges among TS4 badges is a badge to celebrate 5M sales of TS4.

    Just like the most simple explanation of a tweet saying "It's more or less the same", is that it hasn't actually changed much. Because SimGuruMegs has no reason to keep track of the exact number of employees working in a team with hundreds of people. It's not "their" lead animator by the way, there are several lead animators.
  • Horrorgirl6Horrorgirl6 Posts: 3,170 Member
    Neia wrote: »
    @DeservedCriticism
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor and the 5M in the same post, when you went out of your way to find others explanations ('Upon careful inspection the design of the plumbob on the badge doesn't fit ', 'Grey is the color of achievement that haven't been fulfilled yet'), when the most straightforward explanation of a 5M badges among TS4 badges is a badge to celebrate 5M sales of TS4.
    ?
    The question is did they say it was 5 million sales?
  • Horrorgirl6Horrorgirl6 Posts: 3,170 Member
    I don't think the sales even matter anymore. Either way, they try to make a game a sequel of the franchise . Even though it was never meant to be one. Now the game suffered every since then.
  • NeiaNeia Posts: 4,190 Member
    edited May 2017
    Neia wrote: »
    @DeservedCriticism
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor and the 5M in the same post, when you went out of your way to find others explanations ('Upon careful inspection the design of the plumbob on the badge doesn't fit ', 'Grey is the color of achievement that haven't been fulfilled yet'), when the most straightforward explanation of a 5M badges among TS4 badges is a badge to celebrate 5M sales of TS4.
    ?
    The question is did they say it was 5 million sales?

    They didn't confim or deny it at that time, but they have said they were above 5 millions afterward.
  • Horrorgirl6Horrorgirl6 Posts: 3,170 Member
    Neia wrote: »
    Neia wrote: »
    @DeservedCriticism
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor and the 5M in the same post, when you went out of your way to find others explanations ('Upon careful inspection the design of the plumbob on the badge doesn't fit ', 'Grey is the color of achievement that haven't been fulfilled yet'), when the most straightforward explanation of a 5M badges among TS4 badges is a badge to celebrate 5M sales of TS4.
    ?
    The question is did they say it was 5 million sales?

    They didn't confim or infirm it at that time, but they have said they were above 5 millions afterward.

    Ah okay to me that is very odd .If they are 5 million, I think they should jus say they are.
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,974 Member
    @DeservedCriticism I'm used to seeing gaming companies be brutally honest and admit their mistakes. There's very little use in a maybe/ perhaps PR. And funnily enough I rarely see it outside EA.

    But then again most of my company experience in public spaces is either indie developers, or Square Enix MMO department. In Square Enix'es case, the producer of the game decides what happens. He can veto the most popular former race because he simply doesn't want bunny people and he can state that he will never add parsers despite the community begging for it. Because it's his baby and you either put up with it or leave it. It is honestly a better strategy, because if the answer is "no", the community can have a dialogue "why no? Maybe something else that will serve a similar purpose be possible?". While "maybe" kind of just leaves you hanging in limbo. And most people just get fed up with limbos and leave.
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