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About complaining and constructive criticism.

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  • TheHarbinger_51TheHarbinger_51 Posts: 1,702 Member
    edited February 2018
    Honestly, I do not have any issues running the sims 4 . It runs smooth and no lag. And dont experience any bugs at all. So maybe some other gamers just dont understand where you are coming from .

    We all have different feelings about games. Sounds like you aren't very accepting of the fact that not everyone feels the way that you do. You want people to respect your point of view, but yet you are telling us that if we dont feel that sims 4 is "half baked" or lacks quality, that we are wrong. You can feel that sims 4 lacks quality if you want to. But I dont have to feel that way too, do I?

    What you are experience is feedback. You share something online and you get feedback on your feedback, like it or not.

    Personally, I am extremely happy with the game. And that should be okay. And its also okay , if you're extremely unhappy. But we should all respect each others feelings on the issue.

    Your post makes it seem like everyone absolutely must hate this game, or admit to having an issue with it , or else they are "wrong, wrong , wrong!" ... Also, if you dont like the game why exactly would you have bought a new pc to play it? :)@NickSims

  • simfreakssimfreaks Posts: 38 Member
    I think if anyone spent any amount of time building 3D, programming, doing animations or making 2D art even, would understand the time and effort that goes into each of these products.

    I would said I am not "extremely" happy with the game, then again I am often the devil's advocate. However, it is very well done.
  • SimmerNickYTSimmerNickYT Posts: 703 Member
    Honestly, I do not have any issues running the sims 4 . It runs smooth and no lag. And dont experience any bugs at all. So maybe some other gamers just dont understand where you are coming from .

    We all have different feelings about games. Sounds like you aren't very accepting of the fact that not everyone feels the way that you do. You want people to respect your point of view, but yet you are telling us that if we dont feel that sims 4 is "half baked" or lacks quality, that we are wrong. You can feel that sims 4 lacks quality if you want to. But I dont have to feel that way too, do I?

    What you are experience is feedback. You share something online and you get feedback on your feedback, like it or not.

    Personally, I am extremely happy with the game. And that should be okay. And its also okay , if you're extremely unhappy. But we should all respect each others feelings on the issue.

    Your post makes it seem like everyone absolutely must hate this game, or admit to having an issue with it , or else they are "wrong, wrong , wrong!" ... Also, if you dont like the game why exactly would you have bought a new pc to play it? :)@NickSims

    It's nice that you don't have any problems with the game and that you enjoy it! @kaywilliams

    I respect everyone's opinion about the game. Of course it's okay to like the game! Where did I gave the impression that if you don't feel like the game lacks quality that you are wrong? Maybe I should have emphasized more that I respect people that don't feel any issues with the game.
    And I do like the game. But on some points I know it can be better. And I haven't bought a new pc to play the game.

    My whole point on this post isn't fully about the fact that I find the game to be lacking, but it's about people who complain are being bashed by people who like the game who are saying that you HAVE to give constructive criticism, otherwise your opinion isn't valid. The opposite of what you are telling me what I mean by my post. Everyone's opninion has to be respected, even if you have paid so much money and are very upset that it just doesn't quite hit the mark and complain. Positive opinions are respected to of course.

    Not so obsessed anymore with building in TS4!
    YouTube: https://goo.gl/PK7vxR | The Gallery: https://goo.gl/a5DZAK
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  • SimmerNickYTSimmerNickYT Posts: 703 Member
    simfreaks wrote: »
    The Sims 4 team works themselves to death, which is one of the reasons they have lost some valuable team members (and an overrated one) over the last few years. Overworked and underpaid for the amount of time they spend their IMHO. Most are very passionate about their work and I think their work often goes unappreciated. We can sit here and judge the outcome of their work, and everything always has room for improvement, but I would say it's obvious to me how much time has been put into the game especially from an animation, programming and object programming standpoint. I also know that certain outside influences that don't necessarily fall under the "team" category can often force bad ideas like the Sims 2 "Aspiration" onto the team.

    I know that The Sims 4 team works very hard. That's why I say that I don't fully blame them for their mistakes. But to me some of it is not good enough. And well, then they haven't worked hard enough or EA has to hire more people.
    Not so obsessed anymore with building in TS4!
    YouTube: https://goo.gl/PK7vxR | The Gallery: https://goo.gl/a5DZAK
    Twitter: https://goo.gl/QzQVUK | Origin-ID: SimmerNickYT
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  • TheHarbinger_51TheHarbinger_51 Posts: 1,702 Member
    Oh okay, your original post, just came off differently. I think that people here are free to complain about any sims game that wish to complain about. I have never seen anyone who is actually a moderator tell anyone not to express negative experiences with the game.

    Other forum members however, are free to express their thoughts also. They might just disagree with how someone goes about expressing their dissatisfaction with the game. Of course , you dont have to do what they want you to and can be as open as you want to be about what you like or dislike about the game.

    Just dont let it bother you if someone doesnt like your post. We cant control how people respond to our feelings. I am one of those people who really like sims 4 and so I tend to stay away from discussions that are negative. That way I dont get into unnecessary arguments @NickSims
  • ShadowmarkedShadowmarked Posts: 1,054 Member
    Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.
    to express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. is complaining
    and if you don't tell people why you don't like something they can't fix it

    If there is nothing positive to say or nothing negative why lie by trying to give both? Also few people here are game developers so for instance in regards to bugs how are we suppose to give suggestions on how to fix it?
    As long as a criticism is clear as in "I don't like A because it causes B" I think that is fairly constructive.

    Besides some posters who write longer things explaining everything detail then get attacked for "too long of posts" or have others imply they need a better life, or are questioned about why they are on the forums. I can understand why when dealing with a topic your knowledge is limited about, someone on this forum would rather just say I don't like A because it causes B, which is basically only negative and doesn't have a plan laid out for how to address it. The devs know what they are doing, they should still be able to address the problem with out a plan laid out by people who may have no clue to what goes on behind the scenes.

    Saying hat may be a part of the issue though @NickSims is we all have a different definition of what is constructive criticism.
    I think either way, in any situation, comments that tell people to leave the forums, their opinion doesn't matter or that they just need to tough up are generally rude and are by nature personal.
  • SimmerNickYTSimmerNickYT Posts: 703 Member
    BeJaWa wrote: »
    Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.
    to express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. is complaining
    and if you don't tell people why you don't like something they can't fix it

    If there is nothing positive to say or nothing negative why lie by trying to give both? Also few people here are game developers so for instance in regards to bugs how are we suppose to give suggestions on how to fix it?
    As long as a criticism is clear as in "I don't like A because it causes B" I think that is fairly constructive.

    Besides some posters who write longer things explaining everything detail then get attacked for "too long of posts" or have others imply they need a better life, or are questioned about why they are on the forums. I can understand why when dealing with a topic your knowledge is limited about, someone on this forum would rather just say I don't like A because it causes B, which is basically only negative and doesn't have a plan laid out for how to address it. The devs know what they are doing, they should still be able to address the problem with out a plan laid out by people who may have no clue to what goes on behind the scenes.

    Saying hat may be a part of the issue though @NickSims is we all have a different definition of what is constructive criticism.
    I think either way, in any situation, comments that tell people to leave the forums, their opinion doesn't matter or that they just need to tough up are generally rude and are by nature personal.

    Imo constructive criticism is: "I like this thing. But I don't like that, because... Maybe you could change it to this other thing. That would be nice."
    Complaining is: "I don't like that! Fix it!"

    Also what @comicsforlife said is what I think constructive criticism and complaining is.
    They said this: "to express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. is complaining" which I agree with, is complaining.
    But my point is: what is wrong with expressing dissatisfactions or annoyances if you paid for the product? And that is what some people are being told to not to do.

    So like you said @BeJaWa: comments that tell people to leave the forums, their opinion doesn't matter or that they just need to tough up are generally rude and are by nature personal.
    Not so obsessed anymore with building in TS4!
    YouTube: https://goo.gl/PK7vxR | The Gallery: https://goo.gl/a5DZAK
    Twitter: https://goo.gl/QzQVUK | Origin-ID: SimmerNickYT
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  • ShadowmarkedShadowmarked Posts: 1,054 Member
    NickSims wrote: »
    BeJaWa wrote: »
    Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.
    to express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. is complaining
    and if you don't tell people why you don't like something they can't fix it

    If there is nothing positive to say or nothing negative why lie by trying to give both? Also few people here are game developers so for instance in regards to bugs how are we suppose to give suggestions on how to fix it?
    As long as a criticism is clear as in "I don't like A because it causes B" I think that is fairly constructive.

    Besides some posters who write longer things explaining everything detail then get attacked for "too long of posts" or have others imply they need a better life, or are questioned about why they are on the forums. I can understand why when dealing with a topic your knowledge is limited about, someone on this forum would rather just say I don't like A because it causes B, which is basically only negative and doesn't have a plan laid out for how to address it. The devs know what they are doing, they should still be able to address the problem with out a plan laid out by people who may have no clue to what goes on behind the scenes.

    Saying hat may be a part of the issue though @NickSims is we all have a different definition of what is constructive criticism.
    I think either way, in any situation, comments that tell people to leave the forums, their opinion doesn't matter or that they just need to tough up are generally rude and are by nature personal.

    Imo constructive criticism is: "I like this thing. But I don't like that, because... Maybe you could change it to this other thing. That would be nice."
    Complaining is: "I don't like that! Fix it!"

    Also what @comicsforlife said is what I think constructive criticism and complaining is.
    They said this: "to express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. is complaining" which I agree with, is complaining.
    But my point is: what is wrong with expressing dissatisfactions or annoyances if you paid for the product? And that is what some people are being told to not to do.

    So like you said @BeJaWa: comments that tell people to leave the forums, their opinion doesn't matter or that they just need to tough up are generally rude and are by nature personal.

    Hmm OK I may have misinterpreted. I would agree with both you guys, I don't think the "I like this thing" is needed still but otherwise I'm the same.
    I agree people shouldn't be screened for constructive criticism or not, but I do think constructive feedback should be encouraged (I use likes and awesome to do nothing over the top) because it is more useful to say why.
  • PegasysPegasys Posts: 1,135 Member
    There are people who love the game, and it's pretty much perfect for them now; those who do enjoy the game and want to see it succeed, but experience some disappointment in some areas, and those who feel like the game will never fit their style at all, and can't imagine that it will improve enough to inspire them to start playing.

    I see a lot of criticism from the latter category, which if I were a developer, I would just have to dismiss, because if someone doesn't have an positive feelings for the game by now, they probably never will. It's like trying to get someone who has an affinity for one genre of music to prefer another. For example, even adding more conventional instruments won't make electronica music appealing to someone who doesn't like that genre at all.

    I am in the second category and when I do have criticisms, I try to be as specific as possible and even make suggestions as I did in this thread. I know how much work goes into these games so I see no point in demeaning or belittling anyone.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    edited February 2018
    the reason why constructive criticism is good is because it helps things get better
    just criticism does nothing but make people feel bad

    There is always a mountain of information not directly expressed by a poster if they are allowed to rant. The content of their speech can show a person what is at the root of what is bothering them. Maybe people should practice more comprehension, and out of a whole bunch of complaints and what others call rantings they find out a particular bug or whatever has turned them sour on the whole experience. Comprehension is a skill.

    ETA: And as for the answers to the OP, it only adds more sourness to situation if you say I have a headache and someone says be thankful it's not your legs hurting, too, my head isn't hurting so you shouldn't complain. See, learn to be still and listen.

    ETA: I'm just going to add this one thought, TS4 doesn't need protectors or defenders. A good game will stand on it's own, if someone criticizes something about it there really is no need to rush in and defend it's better parts of gameplay. Just let players express in their own words what has tripped them up or turned them off, good comprehension of what is said can solve their problem instead of derailing a thread to praise TS4 in it's defence.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • TheHarbinger_51TheHarbinger_51 Posts: 1,702 Member
    @Cinebar I understand what you're saying , however there are folks who are defensive of the game no matter which version you're talking about whether thats sims 2 , three or four. ive seen some people who have gotten offended and felt attacked over positive comparisons of sims 4 over sims 3. so it goes both ways. but i definitely agree that it should be toned down and criticisms of the game is well and good.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    @Cinebar I understand what you're saying , however there are folks who are defensive of the game no matter which version you're talking about whether thats sims 2 , three or four. ive seen some people who have gotten offended and felt attacked over positive comparisons of sims 4 over sims 3. so it goes both ways. but i definitely agree that it should be toned down and criticisms of the game is well and good.

    I will admit, I'm pretty defensive about TS2. lol However, usually when I say I don't have a problem with a game like TS4 when others are having a particular problem I don't have it's usually because I know they have particular mods and I played the game without any mods etc. So, I may say I'm not having a problem in a vanilla game but maybe should explain it was a vanilla game, I guess.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • keekee53keekee53 Posts: 4,328 Member
    I try to be constructive in my criticism but I am just as annoyed with trying to be. My constructive criticism right now is just fix the game. People always talk about how many bugs Sims3 had and the lag and that is why they need to close the world etc...There are just as many if not more problems in this game. Don't sell me on that a closed world will make the game run better. That is just wrong. The time lapse when you are on speed 3 is like having one GIANT LAG SPIKE.

    Seriously, some packs have real problems that have been around so long it is pretty ridiculous. Let's just say I was buying get to work for the first time. I can even play the detective career because of bugs with clues and finding the perp. I mean it is like a wasted pack because of bugs.

    Dine Out....I have a mod to make Sims sit down. Every restaurant I create, I add separators between each table to deter them from getting out of their seats to talk to another Sim at another table. You mean to tell me Sims 2 is more innovative?? They can actually sit in ONE seat and talk to sims across a table or even at the next table. COME ON!!

    All I can say is thank goodness for modders otherwise I would have given up a long time ago. I was really hoping not to rely on modders so heavily again. The above 2 packs is like a wasted $60.00. That is a lot of money to waste.

    To get back on track here, I think people have been constructive with their criticism. When I see a post where someone is just airing out frustration, I get it. When you see your constructive feedback going no where, you can get a little frustrated.
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    Oh okay, your original post, just came off differently. I think that people here are free to complain about any sims game that wish to complain about. I have never seen anyone who is actually a moderator tell anyone not to express negative experiences with the game.

    Other forum members however, are free to express their thoughts also. They might just disagree with how someone goes about expressing their dissatisfaction with the game. Of course , you dont have to do what they want you to and can be as open as you want to be about what you like or dislike about the game.

    Just dont let it bother you if someone doesnt like your post. We cant control how people respond to our feelings. I am one of those people who really like sims 4 and so I tend to stay away from discussions that are negative. That way I dont get into unnecessary arguments @NickSims
    My experience is somewhat different than yours. A strategy I find very annoying, is deliberate derailment of topics that express criticism because people just don’t want to see it (“Can you please start a blog somewhere else instead of posting here” is one very offensive comment I literally read here quite recently). Like for instance the LGR topic (any LGR topic). It’s obvious LGR is critical towards the game and that will mean people who agree with him will be interested to discuss what he has to say about a pack. In short: the content of the video. A topic like that starts off discussing what he said, but before reaching page 2 all of a sudden we are all discussing LGR himself. And there is no way of trying to pull the discussion back to the content of the review, people continue changing the subject from review into reviewer.
    (this is one example but I see this a lot)

    I also think people should appreciate the section Feedback is a place where the critics are. I understand it’s annoying when people burst into positive topics in General, expressing a negative opinion. But in Feedback (unless it’s a clear invitation to express a purely positive or negative opinion, like EA_Mage is referring to on page 1) you can expect criticism.
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  • TheGoodOldGamerTheGoodOldGamer Posts: 3,559 Member
    NickSims wrote: »
    I'm getting sick of the good old "constructive criticism". Every time someone complains about TS4 they get bashed by others who say that you have to give constructive criticism. I do believe that everyone should be respectful to the devs and guru's about their opinions on the game, as in: don't call them names and don't curse, etc. But I think that we as CONSUMERS have every right to complain and to have criticism that is not so constructive.

    It's quite tiring to give constructive criticism and feeling like it's not going anywhere. This game is riddled with bugs and has so much less content, in quality and quantity. It's making me so mad when I can't play the game, because the interactions freeze for 8 hours. I have spent more than $200 worth of content and it's just not as good as expected.

    What if I went to the bakery and bought a loaf of bread. I go home and it turns out that the bread is half-baked. I can't eat it now and I really wanted a slice! I go back to the bakery and I complain.
    I don't give constructive criticism like: "Well, the bread has a nice taste, but I maybe don't have raw dough in it next time."
    I say: "How could this happen! You have made so many great loaves for 18 years! You've done this before! I payed for this darnit!"
    And then the baker (EA) says: "Welp, making bread is hard okay. We are doing everything we can. Don't blame me or the team. We have a budget. We have done our absolute best. The seeds on top look nice though, right?"
    Maybe a little weird example, but you get my point right? It just doesn't make any sense.

    Everyone has to realise that we pay actual MONEY for this half-baked game. And some even buy a better PC just to play this game more smoothly. If there was another bakery that offered that same loaf of bread, but fully baked, I would go there in an instant.
    I don't think it's the devs fault that this game is a total mess. I don't blame the hard working team that still tried to make something out of it. I blame the profiteers in the office who made the mistakes.

    I'm fine with the majority of your points, OP, I just wanted to mention the bolded and italic responses you gave as examples. Not even specifically toward you, just as a general think that people often overlook, tending to put themselves first over the bigger picture and others around them:

    As some who has worked retail/customer service for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty (though there are exceptions, of course) that the bolded version will get you further in almost any circumstance than the one in italics. If you spend the time between your home and the store (or in this case, a bit of time before posting) to let that... anger? or whatever, go through your system first and then be able to hold a fair discussion, it will serve the whole situation better.

    When you return to the company/store you bought that product from to give feedback about the issue (perhaps even fix the situation with a refund or replacement when possible), simply discussing it, being respectful and calm, and willing to hold a discussion rather than a rant, will end up getting you better results. Pretty much every single time. Why?

    Because there's both a person on the recieving end (you're not just speaking into a void or at a robot), and if you're yelling in a store, (irl or online tbh) you're causing a scene and making everyone around you uncomfortable. Go ahead, the next time you're in a store, and you happen to see a person ranting and raving at the customer service desk, watch what happens, and stick around and watch what happens when another, rational customer comes in with an issue and compare. And also, as a bystander, see how you feel having to witness that. Maybe you're not as sensitive as some, I don't know, but it certainly makes me awkward and uncomfortable.

    The one yelling and making a fuss here on the forum ends up getting moderated, warned/banned/thread edited/deleted/merged, and the one that just lays out issues gets a 'we're working on it!' or 'I'll pass this along to the gurus, thanks!' and sometimes their thread even gets stickied (Ask the family players about that one, lol.) Depending on how it goes, the respectful one can sometimes get certain bugs bumped up on the list. I had a bug in the system tonight with Origin, not even directly game related, and didn't even have to go to the support system. A tech guru here helped me out.

    Once a customer comes a yelling, hooting and hollering, the customer service rep's job (or mod here, basically) is no longer to help that customer. It's to get that customer out of the store as soon as possible, to not bother the other customers who actually want to be there. Don't believe me? Nine times out of ten the customer service rep calls over a manager (a guru) to 'help' that ranting customer. That way the service rep can go back to helping customers that actually want to be helped and not just to throw a fit n all that.

    The manager then, like a saint, nods politely, apologizes profusely, reassures the customer over and over and over (the usual PR speak) and probably gently nudges or steers themselves and the customers toward the door, away from the desk and the other customers. If the manager's office happens to be close by, they might steer them there. They might even hand them coupons, a gift card, take down their name and number to 'call back later with more information', basically whatever it takes to get that customer out the door. One lost customer isn't worth the bad atmosphere for the rest of the customers around them.

    On the flipside, when a customer comes to the service desk with an issue, not yelling and causing a fuss, and holds an even discussion with the customer service rep about the product, laying out their issues and such, actively listening to what the customer service rep says and offers in return, and there's a good back and forth, chances are that customer will be served well and end up walking out of the store feeling better than when they went in (and again, perhaps with a refund or replacement when applicable). The priority remains on that customer's service, because the others around aren't bothered by it.

    I hope you understand where I'm coming from here. It's hard to express if you've never worked the other side of the desk before. Just because you calmly list out your issues with the game (bugs, possible improvements, etc) doesn't mean you're not being heard. There are bug patches every month. One of the Get to Work bugs was just fixed, as I recall, despite it being quite some time since release. Bug fixes and stuff in games take time to develop, especially when new content is being added as well. Toddlers took a few years to get here, but yelling about it didn't speed up the process. They were coming anyway. It only served to make the forums harder to hang out in for a lot of people.

    The Gurus have been pretty good at keeping up with everything. Just because they don't get to reply to every single post or thread doesn't mean they're not aware of the issues folks lay out there. Just my two cents.

    "Hi. Sorry to bother you, but I was here earlier today and I bought this loaf of bread. *shows half eaten loaf to the rep (screenshots, maybe? or save file for bugs), and receipt (receipt unnessary for the game since you have Origin and they can see it, lol)* Right, well I took it home and was about to have lunch and as you can see here... *points to the uncooked portion of the loaf* it was uncooked the second or third bite in. Doesn't make for a good lunch, right? Is there anything you can do? I'd really appreciate it if we could sort this out somehow."

    vs.

    "Hey! You there! Yeah, YOU! You ruined my lunch?! You hear me?! RUINED IT! I paid good money for this bread! It isn't even cooked! I had to come all the way back here! *throws the loaf on the counter in a huff* Who do you think you are anyway?! What kind of lazy bakery is this?!? OH! You think you can just offer me a refund huh?! Well I don't want your stinkin' refund, you fool! Where's your manager???!!!!111 I wanna give him what-for, you hear me!!!! And YOU!!! *points around to everyone else in the room, gesturing wildly* You are the problem! You let them get away with this!!! If it weren't for all you blinded 🐸🐸🐸🐸, I'd have the bread just the way I like it!!! How dare you?!?! Do you not even see the problem here?!?! ARGH!!!!1111"

    (Obvious exaggeration, to a point, but seriously. IMO, your first option will get you further, especially if you're willing to listen. *shrugs* It's not about how you might first feel about the situation. It's about how you say it, how you express it. Do you want people to listen, or put their shields up because you come in guns blazing? Which would you rather deal with if you were on the other end?)
    Live, laugh and love. Life's too short not to.
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 9,585 Member
    NickSims wrote: »
    I'm getting sick of the good old "constructive criticism". Every time someone complains about TS4 they get bashed by others who say that you have to give constructive criticism. I do believe that everyone should be respectful to the devs and guru's about their opinions on the game, as in: don't call them names and don't curse, etc. But I think that we as CONSUMERS have every right to complain and to have criticism that is not so constructive.

    It's quite tiring to give constructive criticism and feeling like it's not going anywhere. This game is riddled with bugs and has so much less content, in quality and quantity. It's making me so mad when I can't play the game, because the interactions freeze for 8 hours. I have spent more than $200 worth of content and it's just not as good as expected.

    What if I went to the bakery and bought a loaf of bread. I go home and it turns out that the bread is half-baked. I can't eat it now and I really wanted a slice! I go back to the bakery and I complain.
    I don't give constructive criticism like: "Well, the bread has a nice taste, but I maybe don't have raw dough in it next time."
    I say: "How could this happen! You have made so many great loaves for 18 years! You've done this before! I payed for this darnit!"
    And then the baker (EA) says: "Welp, making bread is hard okay. We are doing everything we can. Don't blame me or the team. We have a budget. We have done our absolute best. The seeds on top look nice though, right?"
    Maybe a little weird example, but you get my point right? It just doesn't make any sense.

    Everyone has to realise that we pay actual MONEY for this half-baked game. And some even buy a better PC just to play this game more smoothly. If there was another bakery that offered that same loaf of bread, but fully baked, I would go there in an instant.
    I don't think it's the devs fault that this game is a total mess. I don't blame the hard working team that still tried to make something out of it. I blame the profiteers in the office who made the mistakes.

    I'm fine with the majority of your points, OP, I just wanted to mention the bolded and italic responses you gave as examples. Not even specifically toward you, just as a general think that people often overlook, tending to put themselves first over the bigger picture and others around them:

    As some who has worked retail/customer service for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty (though there are exceptions, of course) that the bolded version will get you further in almost any circumstance than the one in italics. If you spend the time between your home and the store (or in this case, a bit of time before posting) to let that... anger? or whatever, go through your system first and then be able to hold a fair discussion, it will serve the whole situation better.

    When you return to the company/store you bought that product from to give feedback about the issue (perhaps even fix the situation with a refund or replacement when possible), simply discussing it, being respectful and calm, and willing to hold a discussion rather than a rant, will end up getting you better results. Pretty much every single time. Why?

    Because there's both a person on the recieving end (you're not just speaking into a void or at a robot), and if you're yelling in a store, (irl or online tbh) you're causing a scene and making everyone around you uncomfortable. Go ahead, the next time you're in a store, and you happen to see a person ranting and raving at the customer service desk, watch what happens, and stick around and watch what happens when another, rational customer comes in with an issue and compare. And also, as a bystander, see how you feel having to witness that. Maybe you're not as sensitive as some, I don't know, but it certainly makes me awkward and uncomfortable.

    The one yelling and making a fuss here on the forum ends up getting moderated, warned/banned/thread edited/deleted/merged, and the one that just lays out issues gets a 'we're working on it!' or 'I'll pass this along to the gurus, thanks!' and sometimes their thread even gets stickied (Ask the family players about that one, lol.) Depending on how it goes, the respectful one can sometimes get certain bugs bumped up on the list. I had a bug in the system tonight with Origin, not even directly game related, and didn't even have to go to the support system. A tech guru here helped me out.

    Once a customer comes a yelling, hooting and hollering, the customer service rep's job (or mod here, basically) is no longer to help that customer. It's to get that customer out of the store as soon as possible, to not bother the other customers who actually want to be there. Don't believe me? Nine times out of ten the customer service rep calls over a manager (a guru) to 'help' that ranting customer. That way the service rep can go back to helping customers that actually want to be helped and not just to throw a fit n all that.

    The manager then, like a saint, nods politely, apologizes profusely, reassures the customer over and over and over (the usual PR speak) and probably gently nudges or steers themselves and the customers toward the door, away from the desk and the other customers. If the manager's office happens to be close by, they might steer them there. They might even hand them coupons, a gift card, take down their name and number to 'call back later with more information', basically whatever it takes to get that customer out the door. One lost customer isn't worth the bad atmosphere for the rest of the customers around them.

    On the flipside, when a customer comes to the service desk with an issue, not yelling and causing a fuss, and holds an even discussion with the customer service rep about the product, laying out their issues and such, actively listening to what the customer service rep says and offers in return, and there's a good back and forth, chances are that customer will be served well and end up walking out of the store feeling better than when they went in (and again, perhaps with a refund or replacement when applicable). The priority remains on that customer's service, because the others around aren't bothered by it.

    I hope you understand where I'm coming from here. It's hard to express if you've never worked the other side of the desk before. Just because you calmly list out your issues with the game (bugs, possible improvements, etc) doesn't mean you're not being heard. There are bug patches every month. One of the Get to Work bugs was just fixed, as I recall, despite it being quite some time since release. Bug fixes and stuff in games take time to develop, especially when new content is being added as well. Toddlers took a few years to get here, but yelling about it didn't speed up the process. They were coming anyway. It only served to make the forums harder to hang out in for a lot of people.

    The Gurus have been pretty good at keeping up with everything. Just because they don't get to reply to every single post or thread doesn't mean they're not aware of the issues folks lay out there. Just my two cents.

    "Hi. Sorry to bother you, but I was here earlier today and I bought this loaf of bread. *shows half eaten loaf to the rep (screenshots, maybe? or save file for bugs), and receipt (receipt unnessary for the game since you have Origin and they can see it, lol)* Right, well I took it home and was about to have lunch and as you can see here... *points to the uncooked portion of the loaf* it was uncooked the second or third bite in. Doesn't make for a good lunch, right? Is there anything you can do? I'd really appreciate it if we could sort this out somehow."

    vs.

    "Hey! You there! Yeah, YOU! You ruined my lunch?! You hear me?! RUINED IT! I paid good money for this bread! It isn't even cooked! I had to come all the way back here! *throws the loaf on the counter in a huff* Who do you think you are anyway?! What kind of lazy bakery is this?!? OH! You think you can just offer me a refund huh?! Well I don't want your stinkin' refund, you fool! Where's your manager???!!!!111 I wanna give him what-for, you hear me!!!! And YOU!!! *points around to everyone else in the room, gesturing wildly* You are the problem! You let them get away with this!!! If it weren't for all you blinded plum, I'd have the bread just the way I like it!!! How dare you?!?! Do you not even see the problem here?!?! ARGH!!!!1111"

    (Obvious exaggeration, to a point, but seriously. IMO, your first option will get you further, especially if you're willing to listen. *shrugs* It's not about how you might first feel about the situation. It's about how you say it, how you express it. Do you want people to listen, or put their shields up because you come in guns blazing? Which would you rather deal with if you were on the other end?)

    well said
    more for sim kids and more drama please
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited March 2018
    @TheGoodOldGamer I’m not in each and every topic, but I hardly ever see specific and angry pointing fingers at actual devs? Unless they’ve directly said something that causes uproar. And even then it’s about what was said and not so much about the person. It would even be impossible because the forum rules don’t allow it. Nobody here has that tone of voice towards devs. The only occasions where it got rocky was when gurus were insulting simmers themselves first. I’ve never ever seen simmers pulling employees over their desk in anger. The Rachel Franklin outrage came closest (and to be honest I really felt sorry for her at one point, thought it went to far and too close to bullying even, even though I understood the outrage itself).

    In fact what I see happening here is your example of the first complainer. Without the ‘sorry to bother you’, because we’re in Feedback. You don’t go to the complaints service introducing yourself with “Hi, I am really sorry to bother you but I have a complaint”. They know you might, that’s what they’re there for. I have worked on that other side of the desk by the way. Working in a library you have to deal with people going completely mental over €0,20.

    People are angry about having to buy two seperate packs for cats, dogs and rodents now ($50) and still not having horses or birds or reptiles (so who knows there’s more to come). I see you disagreeing with that, you even started a positive thread about the pack (which is your good right and I hope it stayed positive, haven’t opened it again after reading the OP). But other simmers don’t see it that way, they’re not mad about the content, they’re mad there was this clear set up of adding pets in seperate packs they have to pay for. I do see you counterposing in those clearly angry threads by the way (which is fine, what’s a discussion without some counteract, nothing wrong with having to argue your feelings and thoughts). But there you go: some are happy to pay a bit more than before for seperate packs of the very same theme, others don’t. I see no dev attacking. As far as I can see people actually love guys like Nardone and Ninja. If anything the outrage is targeted at some vague, anonymous ‘top’ layer of the company.

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  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    NickSims wrote: »
    I'm getting sick of the good old "constructive criticism". Every time someone complains about TS4 they get bashed by others who say that you have to give constructive criticism. I do believe that everyone should be respectful to the devs and guru's about their opinions on the game, as in: don't call them names and don't curse, etc. But I think that we as CONSUMERS have every right to complain and to have criticism that is not so constructive.

    It's quite tiring to give constructive criticism and feeling like it's not going anywhere. This game is riddled with bugs and has so much less content, in quality and quantity. It's making me so mad when I can't play the game, because the interactions freeze for 8 hours. I have spent more than $200 worth of content and it's just not as good as expected.

    What if I went to the bakery and bought a loaf of bread. I go home and it turns out that the bread is half-baked. I can't eat it now and I really wanted a slice! I go back to the bakery and I complain.
    I don't give constructive criticism like: "Well, the bread has a nice taste, but I maybe don't have raw dough in it next time."
    I say: "How could this happen! You have made so many great loaves for 18 years! You've done this before! I payed for this darnit!"
    And then the baker (EA) says: "Welp, making bread is hard okay. We are doing everything we can. Don't blame me or the team. We have a budget. We have done our absolute best. The seeds on top look nice though, right?"
    Maybe a little weird example, but you get my point right? It just doesn't make any sense.

    Everyone has to realise that we pay actual MONEY for this half-baked game. And some even buy a better PC just to play this game more smoothly. If there was another bakery that offered that same loaf of bread, but fully baked, I would go there in an instant.
    I don't think it's the devs fault that this game is a total mess. I don't blame the hard working team that still tried to make something out of it. I blame the profiteers in the office who made the mistakes.

    I agree, to a point.

    I think the developers carry some responsibility for what we got in Sims 4. I think the "profiteers in the office" as you put it give the development team a budget and a completion date but the developers are the ones who know what they are doing, not the office. Who else would be responsible for the quality of the product and how the product works? Who else would decide what an SP or GP or EP would consist of? I doubt the office.
    The “profiteers” as you call them are hired by the stockholders and usually get salaries of about $15-$20 million each year although those salaries also depend on the company’s financial result for the year. To assume that they get such high salaries just to give all EA’s studios budgets and then let the studios decide on their own how to make the games within the budgets is very naive and unlikely!

    EA’s top managers need to be able to explain to the stockholders what they have done to improve EA’s economical results or they will be sacked and some other top managers will be hired instead! Therefore they need to do much more to even be able to keep their jobs. So they do and most usually they have closed down studios which didn’t make satisfying results recently and bought other companies which had something that EA could use.

    But they also need to improve the economical results for all EA’s games because otherwise they won’t be able to reach their economical results for the company anyway. Therefore you can be quite sure that they don’t just give EA’s studios budgets and then let them make their games and packs as they wish! Instead I am quite sure that they require constant feedback from the executive producers and have a lot of meetings with those producers! They almost certainly demand reports from the producers and to be orientated about all the main choices which the developing teams have to make. Most often they will then have suggestions themselves and ask the producers if those suggestions aren’t better? If the producers can’t convince them then the managers will make the decisions instead of the producers and demand that the games and packs are made as the managers and not the producers want them!

    So don’t blame the developers. They can’t make the games or packs in any other ways except just following the agreements between the executive producer and EA’s top management! And those agreements are a lot about what EA’s marketing department thinks will make better sales numbers.
  • SimmerNickYTSimmerNickYT Posts: 703 Member
    NickSims wrote: »
    I'm getting sick of the good old "constructive criticism". Every time someone complains about TS4 they get bashed by others who say that you have to give constructive criticism. I do believe that everyone should be respectful to the devs and guru's about their opinions on the game, as in: don't call them names and don't curse, etc. But I think that we as CONSUMERS have every right to complain and to have criticism that is not so constructive.

    It's quite tiring to give constructive criticism and feeling like it's not going anywhere. This game is riddled with bugs and has so much less content, in quality and quantity. It's making me so mad when I can't play the game, because the interactions freeze for 8 hours. I have spent more than $200 worth of content and it's just not as good as expected.

    What if I went to the bakery and bought a loaf of bread. I go home and it turns out that the bread is half-baked. I can't eat it now and I really wanted a slice! I go back to the bakery and I complain.
    I don't give constructive criticism like: "Well, the bread has a nice taste, but I maybe don't have raw dough in it next time."
    I say: "How could this happen! You have made so many great loaves for 18 years! You've done this before! I payed for this darnit!"
    And then the baker (EA) says: "Welp, making bread is hard okay. We are doing everything we can. Don't blame me or the team. We have a budget. We have done our absolute best. The seeds on top look nice though, right?"
    Maybe a little weird example, but you get my point right? It just doesn't make any sense.

    Everyone has to realise that we pay actual MONEY for this half-baked game. And some even buy a better PC just to play this game more smoothly. If there was another bakery that offered that same loaf of bread, but fully baked, I would go there in an instant.
    I don't think it's the devs fault that this game is a total mess. I don't blame the hard working team that still tried to make something out of it. I blame the profiteers in the office who made the mistakes.

    I'm fine with the majority of your points, OP, I just wanted to mention the bolded and italic responses you gave as examples. Not even specifically toward you, just as a general think that people often overlook, tending to put themselves first over the bigger picture and others around them:

    As some who has worked retail/customer service for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty (though there are exceptions, of course) that the bolded version will get you further in almost any circumstance than the one in italics. If you spend the time between your home and the store (or in this case, a bit of time before posting) to let that... anger? or whatever, go through your system first and then be able to hold a fair discussion, it will serve the whole situation better.

    When you return to the company/store you bought that product from to give feedback about the issue (perhaps even fix the situation with a refund or replacement when possible), simply discussing it, being respectful and calm, and willing to hold a discussion rather than a rant, will end up getting you better results. Pretty much every single time. Why?

    Because there's both a person on the recieving end (you're not just speaking into a void or at a robot), and if you're yelling in a store, (irl or online tbh) you're causing a scene and making everyone around you uncomfortable. Go ahead, the next time you're in a store, and you happen to see a person ranting and raving at the customer service desk, watch what happens, and stick around and watch what happens when another, rational customer comes in with an issue and compare. And also, as a bystander, see how you feel having to witness that. Maybe you're not as sensitive as some, I don't know, but it certainly makes me awkward and uncomfortable.

    The one yelling and making a fuss here on the forum ends up getting moderated, warned/banned/thread edited/deleted/merged, and the one that just lays out issues gets a 'we're working on it!' or 'I'll pass this along to the gurus, thanks!' and sometimes their thread even gets stickied (Ask the family players about that one, lol.) Depending on how it goes, the respectful one can sometimes get certain bugs bumped up on the list. I had a bug in the system tonight with Origin, not even directly game related, and didn't even have to go to the support system. A tech guru here helped me out.

    Once a customer comes a yelling, hooting and hollering, the customer service rep's job (or mod here, basically) is no longer to help that customer. It's to get that customer out of the store as soon as possible, to not bother the other customers who actually want to be there. Don't believe me? Nine times out of ten the customer service rep calls over a manager (a guru) to 'help' that ranting customer. That way the service rep can go back to helping customers that actually want to be helped and not just to throw a fit n all that.

    The manager then, like a saint, nods politely, apologizes profusely, reassures the customer over and over and over (the usual PR speak) and probably gently nudges or steers themselves and the customers toward the door, away from the desk and the other customers. If the manager's office happens to be close by, they might steer them there. They might even hand them coupons, a gift card, take down their name and number to 'call back later with more information', basically whatever it takes to get that customer out the door. One lost customer isn't worth the bad atmosphere for the rest of the customers around them.

    On the flipside, when a customer comes to the service desk with an issue, not yelling and causing a fuss, and holds an even discussion with the customer service rep about the product, laying out their issues and such, actively listening to what the customer service rep says and offers in return, and there's a good back and forth, chances are that customer will be served well and end up walking out of the store feeling better than when they went in (and again, perhaps with a refund or replacement when applicable). The priority remains on that customer's service, because the others around aren't bothered by it.

    I hope you understand where I'm coming from here. It's hard to express if you've never worked the other side of the desk before. Just because you calmly list out your issues with the game (bugs, possible improvements, etc) doesn't mean you're not being heard. There are bug patches every month. One of the Get to Work bugs was just fixed, as I recall, despite it being quite some time since release. Bug fixes and stuff in games take time to develop, especially when new content is being added as well. Toddlers took a few years to get here, but yelling about it didn't speed up the process. They were coming anyway. It only served to make the forums harder to hang out in for a lot of people.

    The Gurus have been pretty good at keeping up with everything. Just because they don't get to reply to every single post or thread doesn't mean they're not aware of the issues folks lay out there. Just my two cents.

    "Hi. Sorry to bother you, but I was here earlier today and I bought this loaf of bread. *shows half eaten loaf to the rep (screenshots, maybe? or save file for bugs), and receipt (receipt unnessary for the game since you have Origin and they can see it, lol)* Right, well I took it home and was about to have lunch and as you can see here... *points to the uncooked portion of the loaf* it was uncooked the second or third bite in. Doesn't make for a good lunch, right? Is there anything you can do? I'd really appreciate it if we could sort this out somehow."

    vs.

    "Hey! You there! Yeah, YOU! You ruined my lunch?! You hear me?! RUINED IT! I paid good money for this bread! It isn't even cooked! I had to come all the way back here! *throws the loaf on the counter in a huff* Who do you think you are anyway?! What kind of lazy bakery is this?!? OH! You think you can just offer me a refund huh?! Well I don't want your stinkin' refund, you fool! Where's your manager???!!!!111 I wanna give him what-for, you hear me!!!! And YOU!!! *points around to everyone else in the room, gesturing wildly* You are the problem! You let them get away with this!!! If it weren't for all you blinded plum, I'd have the bread just the way I like it!!! How dare you?!?! Do you not even see the problem here?!?! ARGH!!!!1111"

    (Obvious exaggeration, to a point, but seriously. IMO, your first option will get you further, especially if you're willing to listen. *shrugs* It's not about how you might first feel about the situation. It's about how you say it, how you express it. Do you want people to listen, or put their shields up because you come in guns blazing? Which would you rather deal with if you were on the other end?)

    I agree. It is always better to give constructive criticism and I agree that you have to be nice to the people on the receiving end (even when they can't directly change anyhing for you). When writing the OP I was just a little frustrated. Over the course of more than I year that I've taken part in The Sims Community I've seen people bashing other people for complaining. Of course any disrespectful complain isn't right. But sometimes I just think: why can't you complain if you literally bought the product? Sometimes it's just a little tiring to have to write a complete essay exactly telling everything that is the problem in a constructive way just to get the point across. But yes I fully support constructive criticism and if you have the ability to write something constructive, you should do it.
    Not so obsessed anymore with building in TS4!
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