I don't think that Sims is boring or any of what you all are talking about. It's really not in the same animation and how they react, it's because people from (I think) the sims 2 have been constantly telling the devs that they want realism in game. Guess what? Realism, while some should be required cause it's a life stimulator game, shouldn't have become the monster it has. We had things in game like the social bunny that wouldn't leave our sims alone when they got too sad, had (I think) things that promted a picture's subject to jump out of its frame, and the tragic clown (which luckily they returned, but it's not the same......you can control it now).
I'm saying that we could do with more weird, unexplained, and certainly not realistic things happen in game.
I am not sure people are necessarily requesting total realism, but rather something believable. No matter how fantastical you make something, there still has to be a core framework that provides suspension of disbelief.
I can only speak for myself, but boredom can set in when the strings become visible within the game. Most social dialogue interactions have options that simply alter a very basic relationship number, a further smaller handful can act as mood manipulators - all well and good, but there came a point, where I realised it didn't matter actually matter as there was no lasting bond or consequences to these interactions in a way that creates an actual believable unique relationship between the sims, it is good old fashioned game grind which, personally, I find boring.
The core unit of gameplay is a sim that is modelled on a human being and so getting the basics for a human is a must, sure it is gonna be simple, but needs to convince. Once that is place then any layer of novelty can be added on top.
Basically the game needs things like an empathy mechanic and more discipline on what is defined as an emotion, trait, aspiration etc. and what the possible consequences are for the interplay between these elements. I remember Lyndsay Pearson being asked in an interview if they had consulted any psychologists on the design of the game and she answered in a very definite negative. I was gob smacked.
Personally, that is only one person in the sea of humanity really, so I fail to see why you'd be gob smacked. Now if it was more than just one psychologist, maybe, but still. I get it........the game DOES need better consequences and some moods need to be tweaked. There needs to be better reactions in general. Also, I can see the argument for traits holding more weight too. As for the options? Those can't actively change up and be different depending on the circumstances. If a sim gets mad at another for something, say cheating, the option is/could be "insult" or "accuse of cheating" (the second would be awesome if they were playing cards).......but the second time they do it, the option is still going to be the same. If that makes sense (only had two cups of coffee this morning....lol).
Sorry, having some difficulty unpicking your post.
I am gob smacked that the Creative Director (the vision thing, pretty relevant bod, IMO ) of a life simulation game didn't think it relevant to at least have a bit of a sit down with psychologist or two.
Essentially what my main point boils down to is that sims have absolutely no memory of any of their interactions, never mind contextual memory.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
I don't think that Sims is boring or any of what you all are talking about. It's really not in the same animation and how they react, it's because people from (I think) the sims 2 have been constantly telling the devs that they want realism in game. Guess what? Realism, while some should be required cause it's a life stimulator game, shouldn't have become the monster it has. We had things in game like the social bunny that wouldn't leave our sims alone when they got too sad, had (I think) things that promted a picture's subject to jump out of its frame, and the tragic clown (which luckily they returned, but it's not the same......you can control it now).
I'm saying that we could do with more weird, unexplained, and certainly not realistic things happen in game.
I am not sure people are necessarily requesting total realism, but rather something believable. No matter how fantastical you make something, there still has to be a core framework that provides suspension of disbelief.
I can only speak for myself, but boredom can set in when the strings become visible within the game. Most social dialogue interactions have options that simply alter a very basic relationship number, a further smaller handful can act as mood manipulators - all well and good, but there came a point, where I realised it didn't matter actually matter as there was no lasting bond or consequences to these interactions in a way that creates an actual believable unique relationship between the sims, it is good old fashioned game grind which, personally, I find boring.
The core unit of gameplay is a sim that is modelled on a human being and so getting the basics for a human is a must, sure it is gonna be simple, but needs to convince. Once that is place then any layer of novelty can be added on top.
Basically the game needs things like an empathy mechanic and more discipline on what is defined as an emotion, trait, aspiration etc. and what the possible consequences are for the interplay between these elements. I remember Lyndsay Pearson being asked in an interview if they had consulted any psychologists on the design of the game and she answered in a very definite negative. I was gob smacked.
I so very much agree with this (especially the bold parts).
Now that you mention "limited LTW", customizable LTW textbox would be at least give us some individuality problem and give our imagination boost. Like writing Sim's bio, you could type in a "LTW" as a reminded for YOU to fulfill (the game mechanic however won't check/know whenever your made-up lifetime goal of the sims is fulfilled).
I don't think that Sims is boring or any of what you all are talking about. It's really not in the same animation and how they react, it's because people from (I think) the sims 2 have been constantly telling the devs that they want realism in game. Guess what? Realism, while some should be required cause it's a life stimulator game, shouldn't have become the monster it has. We had things in game like the social bunny that wouldn't leave our sims alone when they got too sad, had (I think) things that promted a picture's subject to jump out of its frame, and the tragic clown (which luckily they returned, but it's not the same......you can control it now).
I'm saying that we could do with more weird, unexplained, and certainly not realistic things happen in game.
I am not sure people are necessarily requesting total realism, but rather something believable. No matter how fantastical you make something, there still has to be a core framework that provides suspension of disbelief.
I can only speak for myself, but boredom can set in when the strings become visible within the game. Most social dialogue interactions have options that simply alter a very basic relationship number, a further smaller handful can act as mood manipulators - all well and good, but there came a point, where I realised it didn't matter actually matter as there was no lasting bond or consequences to these interactions in a way that creates an actual believable unique relationship between the sims, it is good old fashioned game grind which, personally, I find boring.
The core unit of gameplay is a sim that is modelled on a human being and so getting the basics for a human is a must, sure it is gonna be simple, but needs to convince. Once that is place then any layer of novelty can be added on top.
Basically the game needs things like an empathy mechanic and more discipline on what is defined as an emotion, trait, aspiration etc. and what the possible consequences are for the interplay between these elements. I remember Lyndsay Pearson being asked in an interview if they had consulted any psychologists on the design of the game and she answered in a very definite negative. I was gob smacked.
I so very much agree with this (especially the bold parts).
Thank you.
I feel like i am being a bit harsh in my criticism sometimes, so I have to point out I do play the game an awful lot and enjoy that time way more often than I don't. I find that sweet spot just out of reach tho' and I have recognised this is really due to the fact that the systems are very shallow or left hanging. I could write reams of stuff about where the game frustrates me.
I came to the point long ago where I accepted that the game will never actually reach its potential in my eyes and so I make the best of what I have and play with my mods, CC, etc very much using a sandbox approach.
I no longer approach the game with a hard intelligent mindset, but more like a jigsaw, a doodle pad...
Might also be worth mentioning that I have bought nothing for the game since Get Together, except the vampire pack as they all seem to just make the puddle wider, not deeper.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
I don't think that Sims is boring or any of what you all are talking about. It's really not in the same animation and how they react, it's because people from (I think) the sims 2 have been constantly telling the devs that they want realism in game. Guess what? Realism, while some should be required cause it's a life stimulator game, shouldn't have become the monster it has. We had things in game like the social bunny that wouldn't leave our sims alone when they got too sad, had (I think) things that promted a picture's subject to jump out of its frame, and the tragic clown (which luckily they returned, but it's not the same......you can control it now).
I'm saying that we could do with more weird, unexplained, and certainly not realistic things happen in game.
I am not sure people are necessarily requesting total realism, but rather something believable. No matter how fantastical you make something, there still has to be a core framework that provides suspension of disbelief.
I can only speak for myself, but boredom can set in when the strings become visible within the game. Most social dialogue interactions have options that simply alter a very basic relationship number, a further smaller handful can act as mood manipulators - all well and good, but there came a point, where I realised it didn't matter actually matter as there was no lasting bond or consequences to these interactions in a way that creates an actual believable unique relationship between the sims, it is good old fashioned game grind which, personally, I find boring.
The core unit of gameplay is a sim that is modelled on a human being and so getting the basics for a human is a must, sure it is gonna be simple, but needs to convince. Once that is place then any layer of novelty can be added on top.
Basically the game needs things like an empathy mechanic and more discipline on what is defined as an emotion, trait, aspiration etc. and what the possible consequences are for the interplay between these elements. I remember Lyndsay Pearson being asked in an interview if they had consulted any psychologists on the design of the game and she answered in a very definite negative. I was gob smacked.
Thank you. You explained it perfectly. There's nothing there that makes the relationships feel real. I like your metaphor about the "strings"
More immersion is needed. I expect more of of a life simulation that has been out there for this long. The sky is the limit and we haven't stepped off the ground @ModerateOsprey
I don't think that Sims is boring or any of what you all are talking about. It's really not in the same animation and how they react, it's because people from (I think) the sims 2 have been constantly telling the devs that they want realism in game. Guess what? Realism, while some should be required cause it's a life stimulator game, shouldn't have become the monster it has. We had things in game like the social bunny that wouldn't leave our sims alone when they got too sad, had (I think) things that promted a picture's subject to jump out of its frame, and the tragic clown (which luckily they returned, but it's not the same......you can control it now).
I'm saying that we could do with more weird, unexplained, and certainly not realistic things happen in game.
I respectfully disagree. The sims is boring.As much as I love this series, because of its uniqueness. I don't understand why they keep making different "versions" of the same game over and over. I played all 4 versions of the sims and I was only 10 when Sims 1 came out. Thats where I started .And the game has NOT grown up with me, over the years. It's essentially the same game now, that it was all those years ago and it is losing me. As an adult, I don't want to play a life simulation that feels like playing with virtual computer dolls.I want to play a life simulation with sims that have layers and depth to them. This game has been around for 17 years now and we're still dealing with sims who don't behave , think or feel like real human beings. That is not okay.
Please do something about it. One of the biggest problems of the sims , is that it never changes over time. Our sims havent grown significantly after all of these years. By now our sims should be complex characters , with super intelligence who have interests , causes and passions. Each one different and special and they are not like that, at all. As players , our gaming experience should be different from one sim to another.
The lack of meaningfulness bothers me. I want my sims to have feelings , good or bad, about certain topics. Not just repeat some lame recycled animation. Sims lack individuality and an identity. I feel as if Im playing the same old game I was back in 2004. Just with updated graphics, only not as awesome. We need a LOT more interactions and ways make sims feel more human.There's only a few aspirations and they are limited and there are a lot of other dreams that our sims could have. The trait selection is also sad. Then there is the problem of how little traits impact our sims lives. That is a problem. Because again, by now, our sims should have evolved into something more interesting and greater than they were 10 years ago and it hasn't happened.
Im tired of watching the same animations over and over and im tired of what I do, not mattering. Please bring more depth to this series for me, because I want to really love it again. Please give our sims meaningful lives and personalities.
So basically you want your sims to behave more along the lines of how they behaved in Sims 2? That's what I want. I loved the complexity of the sims from that game. I had always figured that when Sims 4 came out it would have been a combination of Sims 2 and Sims 3 (taking all the best from both games, and then putting their own twist on it for Sims 4). But this is not what happened. I know by this point many players say the lack of depth, development, etc, is due largely in part of the fact that the core game was meant to be online. And this is why everything is so shallow.
I'm hoping that with all the feedback Sims 4 have gotten over the years - both positive and negative - they will use it to develop and make Sims 5 the game that if not all of us, at least 95% of the players have been dreaming of!
The problem with The Sims series is that, mentally speaking, our sims have really gone downhill ever since TS2... TS1 introduced the Sims themselves, they had moods, motives, personality points and interests, moods were the results of motive satisfaction and could influence (positively or negatively) the effect of social interactions, mood could also cause a sim to disobey an order to do things like learning skills, interests caused a sim to react different to other sims in conversation; A conversation could end early if the Sim in question was not interested in the subject being discussed, it also allowed sims to form relationships more easily with sims of similar interests.
Personality points were the expression of a sims general mentality and had a powerful effect on their behaviour and subsequently how others reacted to them. a sim with minimal neatness for example would be a slob, wouldn't object to a low hygiene and would leave rubbish and dirty dishes everywhere, causing other sims to react negatively, similarly other personality traits also had a powerful impact, an extremely outgoing sim might actually have trouble befriending a shy sim, nice sims would try to befriend everyone but would often annoy mean sims.
Personality REALLY meant something in TS1, it was essentially the foundation of the game.
Oops, forgot to mention the relationship panel, where it actually mattered what your sims relationship to another sim was and you couldn't have them engaging in woohoo or similar activities within an hour of sim-time.
TS2 massively built upon that by adding in memories, wants, fears, lifetime aspiration, the aspiration meter, personality type, families, daily vs lifetime relationship and aging.
To truly sum up the full effects of the interaction between all these things would probably take much more than a single post, so I'll just give the broad strokes.
wants, fears and aspiration were all tied together with memories and also distinct as well, a sims could accomplish wants or fears according to their personality type (knowledge, romance, popularity, ETC) and this would carry positive or negative memories which would shape your sims future behaviour, interactions between sims would also shape not only their relationship (long and short term) but also their memories of that person, and (in the case of family members) even their personality, the gossip interaction could result in friendships being made or lost, relationships being broken, ETC, it actually HAD a meaning.
Sims could fail in life, a sim could have a screwed up childhood with bad parents which would result in a screwed up adult, personality points now had a directly visible effect on the behaviour of a sim (without a bright colourful banner telling you what your sims were feeling), aging now meant that Sims only had a limited time in which to win or lose at the game of life and even two identical sims with identical personalities could quickly become totally different to each other.
All this was later built upon again with a reputation system and personal chemistry, the former meant that sims would immediately have a positive or negative relationship upon meeting a sim, the latter mean that two sims no longer had to be attracted to the same things.
This was again built upon by an expanded personality system which allowed a successful sim to have an additional personality type as well as abilities resulting from that, improving relationships, allowing multi-sim phone calls, ETC.
TS3 is where it really started to go down the pan, the personality system was removed entirely and replaced with 'traits' which stood in place for a sims personality, and although they did allow for a wider selection of actual personalities, didn't have anywhere near as much impact as the previous systems. Motives no longer directly affected moods but instead generated 'moodlets', which were the primary controller to the point where a sim in a beautiful locale with well decorated rooms could almost ignore the fact that they were bored to tears. Memories were gone (so too long term personalities), as were interests (everyone loved everything in a conversation), and although a form of lifetime aspiration still existed, it had next to no effect on a sims personality, personal chemistry, reputation and fears were all gone... Sims no longer had to fear failure as much, two sims with identical traits would almost certainly be identical sims, two sims living in the same house could actually live their entire lives as strangers to each other and even death itself was toned down.
Even the different ages were not safe, with massive amounts of interactions between the different ages removed entirely and never replaced, sims would also now 'rarely' refuse a social interaction.
TS4 is where it went out the window, down the drain, into the sewer and out into the sewage processing plant before being flushed far out to sea to sink into the icy black depths, our sims personality is almost entirely gone, replaced by 'emotions', now regardless of traits, emotions define what a sim acts like and their 'whims' of the moment, relationships, love interests and even pregnancy can be made almost in an instant, death is a virtual stranger, a sims personality over the long term no longer has any relevance, actions barely have any consequences, family relationships no longer matter, sims never refuse a social interaction, and one of the few challenges to the game is getting a sim with autonomy on to actually do what YOU want them to.
I agree with your assessment overall. Ts2 improved upon the TS1 and then with Ts3 , that is where it all started to dissipate . Sims in Ts3 are robotic and unnatural to the point of being sad. If they had truly done an improvement of Ts3 personality system and brought more depth , I can only imagine how much fun Ts3 could have been.
You are exactly right though. Ts3 and ts4 are not truly improvements to the sims series at all. Because of the inattention to detail. Not only do our sims need personality, they need complexity and that should be there , by now.
A sit down with some psychologists would have helped greatly. But they would only do that if they cared about deeping our game-playing experience, which im not sure they do.
No, it seems pretty obvious they don't really care about creating an actual life simulation, but rather simulacrum of one
Ah yes, a philosopher. Now that would have been sweet. Use a philosophical framework to nail the vision, then wheel in the psychologists to help establish the detail.
I bet they did consult a positive bevvy of bean counters and marketeers to make sure the vision was on point.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
Please do something about it. One of the biggest problems of the sims , is that it never changes over time. Our sims havent grown significantly after all of these years. By now our sims should be complex characters , with super intelligence who have interests , causes and passions. Each one different and special and they are not like that, at all. As players , our gaming experience should be different from one sim to another.
The lack of meaningfulness bothers me. I want my sims to have feelings , good or bad, about certain topics. Not just repeat some lame recycled animation. Sims lack individuality and an identity. I feel as if Im playing the same old game I was back in 2004. Just with updated graphics, only not as awesome. We need a LOT more interactions and ways make sims feel more human.There's only a few aspirations and they are limited and there are a lot of other dreams that our sims could have. The trait selection is also sad. Then there is the problem of how little traits impact our sims lives. That is a problem. Because again, by now, our sims should have evolved into something more interesting and greater than they were 10 years ago and it hasn't happened.
Im tired of watching the same animations over and over and im tired of what I do, not mattering. Please bring more depth to this series for me, because I want to really love it again. Please give our sims meaningful lives and personalities.
So basically you want your sims to behave more along the lines of how they behaved in Sims 2? That's what I want. I loved the complexity of the sims from that game. I had always figured that when Sims 4 came out it would have been a combination of Sims 2 and Sims 3 (taking all the best from both games, and then putting their own twist on it for Sims 4). But this is not what happened. I know by this point many players say the lack of depth, development, etc, is due largely in part of the fact that the core game was meant to be online. And this is why everything is so shallow.
I'm hoping that with all the feedback Sims 4 have gotten over the years - both positive and negative - they will use it to develop and make Sims 5 the game that if not all of us, at least 95% of the players have been dreaming of!
Yes, it seems they came closest to what the OP wishes in version 2, which is very strange. Sims 3 should have extended and improved that, but they didn't. The only reason I don't totally mind in that game is because it has other qualities and I manage to give my sims that character all by myself somehow, but other players clearly have been struggling with that.
Absolutely agree with everything said here. I'll give a few examples for why 4 isn't as good as it could be, by comparing Sims 3 (recently purchased) to Sims 4 (bought about 9 months ago). Yes, I started with Sims 4. This should be an interesting perspective, it's usually the other way around here.
TL;DR: Sims 4 basically doesn't have enough depth and content to compete with Sims 3. EVEN IF I only look at a few parts, and those are only ones that 4 could technically actually have.
The Loner trait:
In 3 it creates a Sim who almost never talks to anyone, rather stays inside of the house, minds his/her own business and gets extremely uncomfortable when there are too many people around. Even if that's in the family, or even at school/work.
In 4 however, my Sim will still talk as much as anyone else, gets a negligible amount of tenseness if there is a group of Sims VERY close to them. Making friends isn't too difficult either. At school or work they don't get any moodlets at all, and this is normal for ALL traits.
The huge gap between the effectiveness of traits that exist in both games is there in every case by the way. I just had a Loner Sim in 4 today, so I wanted to take a fresh example.
Traits, generally:
In 3 you get a huge bunch of them, and can assign up to 5 of them to an adult Sim. One for each life stage of growing up, makes sense. There are no special toddler traits or anything, and most traits are accessible by most age groups (probably because there are so many). It's easy to just never use a specific trait at all even after creating ridiculous amounts of diverse Sims (I never had a Vehicle Enthusiast in 136 hours, and that's just with the base game + ItF). The lifetime wish will NOT influence the Sim's personality as far as I know, though their wishes will often be caused by it.
In 4 there is only a very small amount of traits. They seem diverse at first, and they really are totally different from eachother. But their effects are so unnoticeable that you basically don't need to assign any traits. There are also so few different traits that I used each of them twice within my first 10 Sims. Even the extra trait added by the lifetime wish doesn't help there.
Lifetime Wishes: (I'll just call them that for both games right now)
It just feels much easier to choose one in Sims 3. There are some like "I want to recreate the Matrix!" or "Fear me, I'm the Emperor of Evil!" which are perfect for the sillier Sims I make, but the more serious/realistic ones can also choose from a wide variety of "I'll master one or more traits, either certain ones or just a few I choose" as well as "Why not be an astronaut/globally known journalist/president/etc.?". And all of these have one thing in common: They really take a long time to achieve. Wether you want to build a sentient robot, or woohoo with 10 different Sims, or just try to be a good author, it's really a LIFETIME wish.
In Sims 4 however I'm (once again) disappointed. You don't have as many, and those that do exist are kind of a middle thing between "hold my beer" and "will I even live long enough for this?". I also don't like how they all have different stages with certain lists of things you need to do. This means that no matter who receives this lifetime wish they WILL go through the exact same situations. In Sims 3, the LTWs are made in a way that allows the player to choose any possible way of achieving the goal. You could have a large family as a wish for example. In 4, this means you work on a to-do list that will always be the same no matter your Sim's traits.
At some point you'll need to control the Sim's children so they can grow to adults and get own children, so the Sim with the LTW can have grandkids which are necessary for a part of this. While in 3 you could either have this Sim just barely have the children even survive, basically teaching them nothing about actual behaviour, or you could give each of them the best life possible, with one Sim each dedicated to raising the children. Grandchildren don't matter, so generally your Sim's children can do whatever they want. If they all turn out to be homosexual and don't want children, then there in Sims 3 that's fine, while here in Sims 4 it means you need to choose another LTW for their father/mother.
Basically, only your own Sim needs to do the work in Sims 3, while in 4 you sometimes need to rely on other Sims' actions. That's not the purpose of an own lifetime wish.
Emotions:
Don't worry, this is just a link and not far too much text again. To a post I made back in December, because even then I was already fully capable of being annoyed by the suboptimal emotions in Sims 4
Of course the comparison to Sims 3 is missing there, but the point stands anyways. http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/907607/bad-things-simply-dont-happen-or-nobody-cares/p1
What I want hasn't really been done before in the sims. Sure, sims 2 was a fantastic start, but not even that game fun as it was, lives up to what the sims really could be in the future . Im talking about something that transforms our sims into characters that seem sort of real and complicated. With thoughts and wishes of their own. And relationships that are unique and individual .
The big difficulty I see is that starting with Sims 3 and now even more with Sims 4, there has been a shift from challenge/time management/restrictions to storytelling. As long as the Sims series is intends to serve the storytelling demographic, we will not get the depth of character the OP is seeking. Because depth of character is in a large part, based on restriction.
For example, in Sims 2 the Lifetime Want was randomly chosen and the player could not change it without jumping through hoops. In Sims 3, the player could select from a group of Lifetime Wish depending upon traits. In Sims 4, you can select any Aspiration at any time, no matter the sims's traits. And ironically, it's that ability to choose that detracts from the depth. If any sim can do anything at any time, then it's solely up to the player to assign depth.
This is similar to the discussion in another thread about how the parents scolding their children is not autonomous, and that was immersion-breaking. The answer some gave in that thread was that the player determines what kind of parent they want their sims to be. Storytelling, not sim-led challenges.
I agree I would like to see more depth and I think updating the whim/aspiration system would go a long way toward that. I personally would prefer an aspiration system somewhere between Sims 2 and Sims 3. The Sims 3 had more meaningful wishes, and the Sims 2 fear/aspiration loss mechanic was great.
However, with the Sims 4 they apparently originally meant for whims to be optional (hence the term "whims" not "wants" or "wishes"). I made a comment in another thread about how I wanted the return of the Sims 2 fear system, and someone replied they didn't want the game telling them what their sims wanted, or how to play their game, they want to decide what their sims wanted. Again, it's the storytelling approach. As long as that is a predominant aim, even with more and more interactions, there won't be the depth. Because, in my opinion, ironically, depth originates from having some restriction. And this game has been moving towards eliminating restrictions.
Well said @Pegasys. I agree with your post. I miss the fear system and It makes me sad In a way to see people saying they don't want their sims to have something like fears they can't control. I think one of the games flaws is my sims don't react to anything unless I tell them. I may tell stories but I don't want to micro manage every little reaction.
Well said @Pegasys. I agree with your post. I miss the fear system and It makes me sad In a way to see people saying they don't want their sims to have something like fears they can't control. I think one of the games flaws is my sims don't react to anything unless I tell them. I may tell stories but I don't want to micro manage every little reaction.
Yeah, thats terrible, imo. Thats apart of what I was talking about when I said that sims dont have thoughts of their own or have their own identity. I can't care too much or become excited about sims who are just there to perform actions I TELL them to. While I still want them to do what I command when I command it, I would like for them to have more autonomous behavior that impacts the course of their days or lives
@BrownGamerGurl1 exactly. That's one of the reasons I love the previous games, they will do things on their own free will, I might not like it and can cancel it but their personalities shine through. My sims 4 sims I feel I have to make react to everything. On elf my sims 4 sims had a whim to "get angry" and I just thought to myself " why can't you just get angry by yourself? why wait for me to make you angry?" She had a lot to be angry about to be fair, living in a rat infested apartment. I love my sims 1-3 sims who will react to death, cheating, fires, earthquakes. I may not always like it but it's more realistic to me than having to command sims to react. My sim child witnessed his dad cheating on his mum, he didn't react, just sat licking an ice cream, I had to tell him to react and none of the interactions felt appropriate because he doesn't care and if he doesn't care, why should I?
Especially now with parenthood, witnessing that should have an impact on your relationship. If we are meant to believe sims will remember how their dad was very relaxed with them and not a strict parent when they were growing up, it seems reasonable to me that an incident like that would hugely impact their relationship. It has done previously in the sims 2.
But it doesn't. Maybe as the player I'm meant to fill in the blanks and make the kid act out and the dad can react to that in whatever manner I choose but it doesn't feel "real" to me that way. I can't believe it.
Please do something about it. One of the biggest problems of the sims , is that it never changes over time. Our sims havent grown significantly after all of these years. By now our sims should be complex characters , with super intelligence who have interests , causes and passions. Each one different and special and they are not like that, at all. As players , our gaming experience should be different from one sim to another.
The lack of meaningfulness bothers me. I want my sims to have feelings , good or bad, about certain topics. Not just repeat some lame recycled animation. Sims lack individuality and an identity. I feel as if Im playing the same old game I was back in 2004. Just with updated graphics, only not as awesome. We need a LOT more interactions and ways make sims feel more human.There's only a few aspirations and they are limited and there are a lot of other dreams that our sims could have. The trait selection is also sad. Then there is the problem of how little traits impact our sims lives. That is a problem. Because again, by now, our sims should have evolved into something more interesting and greater than they were 10 years ago and it hasn't happened.
Im tired of watching the same animations over and over and im tired of what I do, not mattering. Please bring more depth to this series for me, because I want to really love it again. Please give our sims meaningful lives and personalities.
So basically you want your sims to behave more along the lines of how they behaved in Sims 2? That's what I want. I loved the complexity of the sims from that game. I had always figured that when Sims 4 came out it would have been a combination of Sims 2 and Sims 3 (taking all the best from both games, and then putting their own twist on it for Sims 4). But this is not what happened. I know by this point many players say the lack of depth, development, etc, is due largely in part of the fact that the core game was meant to be online. And this is why everything is so shallow.
I'm hoping that with all the feedback Sims 4 have gotten over the years - both positive and negative - they will use it to develop and make Sims 5 the game that if not all of us, at least 95% of the players have been dreaming of!
Yes, it seems they came closest to what the OP wishes in version 2, which is very strange. Sims 3 should have extended and improved that, but they didn't. The only reason I don't totally mind in that game is because it has other qualities and I manage to give my sims that character all by myself somehow, but other players clearly have been struggling with that.
I feel the same way about Sims 3. Granted, the sims are as developed and as in-depth as their Sims 2 counterparts, but there are many things I think makeup for that. The biggest ones being open world and CASt. But I would like to see Sims 5 take all of that (from both games) and up it, making it just awesome.
In the game, layers or not.......virtual doll house or not.........its just a game. I respectfully disagree with you OP. For me its simple, you either like it and play it or you don't and you find a different game to love other than the sims. I don't think that it is a virtual dollhouse kind of game. The depth comes from your imagination. Its always been that way and always will be that way. My sims, at least, have layers and depth because that's how I view my sims.
Do I wish that they'd do more with the traits? Sure.......like for instance if your sim was evil and mean, they'd do more than just perform mean interactions. They'd pull pranks anonymously, trip people up, etc.
Does that make or break the game? Certainly not. Why? Imagination.......it all comes full circle to that. I think that's what the devs want to keep. The ability to give us a specific amount of play without taking away our ability to imagine what it would be like to be them in their situations.
ETA: My saying that "you either like it or you don't and find a different game to love other than the sims" is NOT my way of saying not to play the game.......just to clarify......
Basically the game needs things like an empathy mechanic and more discipline on what is defined as an emotion, trait, aspiration etc. and what the possible consequences are for the interplay between these elements. I remember Lyndsay Pearson being asked in an interview if they had consulted any psychologists on the design of the game and she answered in a very definite negative. I was gob smacked.
Interesting. I bet some of the devs have side-hobby understanding of psychology though, for what that's worth. I think you pretty much need to have some understanding of human psychology to make it as a game designer because, to a certain extent, you're trying to predict what people want, how they will use a feature, etc.
Couldn't hurt for them to consult dedicated professionals though. But I would hope they'd be careful about who they consult, as some people in psychology just aren't very good at their job, or operate on outdated and/or ineffective models.
Again. I STRONGLY disgaree. And on that note, if you don't like what this thread is about and don't need a deeper game-playing experience,then you dont have to be here either. I need a BETTER game to justify spending my money on a life simulation. What is "just A game" to you, is a franchise I have wanted to see become more than the BARE MINIMUM excuse for years . Okay? Good. I have spent years of my life playing this ONE game and I have the right to want something more than a virtual dollhouse game @Bear31
Don't get bent out of shape just because I don't share your viewpoint. It IS "just a game".....if it wasn't, then I wouldn't be playing it. What's the point of a game if you aren't having fun anyway?! The game, to me, already gives me a deep gaming experience because, as I've said before, it relies on the player's imagination. And because of that, it's not just a virtual dollhouse to me.
Again and respectfully, if it's that big of a deal it's just as easy for me to leave this thread, than it is for you to find happiness with something you enjoy. I'm simply hoping you find that happiness someday with this game or with another game that, in your eyes is better than what sims has to offer. And to tell me to go away (please note @SimGuruDrake@SimGuruBChick), really is against forum rules.
Also, the fact that you think that they are only doing the bare minimum is just your/some other's perspective.......not what actually is. Just like my viewpoint is my perspective of the game, not what actually is. We both are entitled to how we feel and we both are entitled to express it wherever we choose to express it. And in that I am sorry you feel the way you do about the game. In the end though, for the record, I never ONCE said I didn't care for this thread. I just wanted to respectfully put in my two cents......however unwanted it was by you.
Your comment doesn't make any sense. I shouldn't have to use my IMAGINATION, with something I am PAYING for!!!! This game is not given for free. Therefore I do have expectations. There is no good reason to keep making the same sims game over and over and not expanding on the sims personalities and depth. Once again, you do not need to participate in this thread. But I am not going to lower my standards for this game.
Don't tell me what game to play either. I have spent a lot of hard earned money on THIS game. So I get the right to say what I would like to see done BETTER. The game is shallow. The game needs more depth and complexity, period. It is not living up to it's title of a life simulation game, at all. If that upsets you, you don't have to be here. But I won't stop saying it. The thing is, this is a thread for people who DO want a deeper game-playing experience , to talk about how that could be accomplished. If you are perfectly fine with the sims, as it is, then carry on. But do not, by all means, tell me how to feel or what I should be playing , when I have spent my money and my time on this incomplete game. That is some kind of nerve , honestly. Again, people have the right to say that this game is not up to PAR and it is not. I can use my IMAGINATION for free!!!! I do not waste money on a game just so I can PRETEND that it is complex and interesting. That is the job of the creators to make it that way. Sheesh. Talk about lowering the bar.Imagination....smh
Your comment doesn't make any sense. I shouldn't have to use my IMAGINATION, with something I am PAYING for!!!! This game is not given for free. Therefore I do have expectations. There is no good reason to keep making the same sims game over and over and not expanding on the sims personalities and depth. Once again, you do not need to participate in this thread. But I am not going to lower my standards for this game.
Don't tell me what game to play either. I have spent a lot of hard earned money on THIS game. So I get the right to say what I would like to see done BETTER. The game is shallow. The game needs more depth and complexity, period. It is not living up to it's title of a life simulation game, at all. If that upsets you, you don't have to be here. But I won't stop saying it. The thing is, this is a thread for people who DO want a deeper game-playing experience , to talk about how that could be accomplished. If you are perfectly fine with the sims, as it is, then carry on. But do not, by all means, tell me how to feel or what I should be playing , when I have spent my money and my time on this incomplete game. That is some kind of nerve , honestly. Again, people have the right to say that this game is not up to PAR and it is not. I can use my IMAGINATION for free!!!! I do not waste money on a game just so I can PRETEND that it is complex and interesting. That is the job of the creators to make it that way. Sheesh. Talk about lowering the bar.Imagination....smh
LMAO!!! Since when did I EVER say what you should and should not be feeling about the game?! Since when have I EVER told you what game to play?! And since when have I EVER, in my posts, prohibited you from telling people what you want to see as far as the game is concerned?! Oh....that's right.....I haven't.
In case you missed it, I said.....and I quote "You are entitled to how you feel" just as I am entitled to how I feel. Also, and I quote "You are entitled to express it" just as I'm allowed to express how I feel.
I have every right to be here in this thread and I never once said I disliked it. I have a right to express my opinions here.
Comments
Sorry, having some difficulty unpicking your post.
I am gob smacked that the Creative Director (the vision thing, pretty relevant bod, IMO
Essentially what my main point boils down to is that sims have absolutely no memory of any of their interactions, never mind contextual memory.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
Thank you.
I feel like i am being a bit harsh in my criticism sometimes, so I have to point out I do play the game an awful lot and enjoy that time way more often than I don't. I find that sweet spot just out of reach tho' and I have recognised this is really due to the fact that the systems are very shallow or left hanging. I could write reams of stuff about where the game frustrates me.
I came to the point long ago where I accepted that the game will never actually reach its potential in my eyes and so I make the best of what I have and play with my mods, CC, etc very much using a sandbox approach.
I no longer approach the game with a hard intelligent mindset, but more like a jigsaw, a doodle pad...
Might also be worth mentioning that I have bought nothing for the game since Get Together, except the vampire pack as they all seem to just make the puddle wider, not deeper.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
Thank you. You explained it perfectly. There's nothing there that makes the relationships feel real. I like your metaphor about the "strings"
More immersion is needed. I expect more of of a life simulation that has been out there for this long. The sky is the limit and we haven't stepped off the ground @ModerateOsprey
@Bear31
I respectfully disagree. The sims is boring.As much as I love this series, because of its uniqueness. I don't understand why they keep making different "versions" of the same game over and over. I played all 4 versions of the sims and I was only 10 when Sims 1 came out. Thats where I started .And the game has NOT grown up with me, over the years. It's essentially the same game now, that it was all those years ago and it is losing me. As an adult, I don't want to play a life simulation that feels like playing with virtual computer dolls.I want to play a life simulation with sims that have layers and depth to them. This game has been around for 17 years now and we're still dealing with sims who don't behave , think or feel like real human beings. That is not okay.
So basically you want your sims to behave more along the lines of how they behaved in Sims 2? That's what I want. I loved the complexity of the sims from that game. I had always figured that when Sims 4 came out it would have been a combination of Sims 2 and Sims 3 (taking all the best from both games, and then putting their own twist on it for Sims 4). But this is not what happened. I know by this point many players say the lack of depth, development, etc, is due largely in part of the fact that the core game was meant to be online. And this is why everything is so shallow.
I'm hoping that with all the feedback Sims 4 have gotten over the years - both positive and negative - they will use it to develop and make Sims 5 the game that if not all of us, at least 95% of the players have been dreaming of!
Personality points were the expression of a sims general mentality and had a powerful effect on their behaviour and subsequently how others reacted to them. a sim with minimal neatness for example would be a slob, wouldn't object to a low hygiene and would leave rubbish and dirty dishes everywhere, causing other sims to react negatively, similarly other personality traits also had a powerful impact, an extremely outgoing sim might actually have trouble befriending a shy sim, nice sims would try to befriend everyone but would often annoy mean sims.
Personality REALLY meant something in TS1, it was essentially the foundation of the game.
Oops, forgot to mention the relationship panel, where it actually mattered what your sims relationship to another sim was and you couldn't have them engaging in woohoo or similar activities within an hour of sim-time.
TS2 massively built upon that by adding in memories, wants, fears, lifetime aspiration, the aspiration meter, personality type, families, daily vs lifetime relationship and aging.
To truly sum up the full effects of the interaction between all these things would probably take much more than a single post, so I'll just give the broad strokes.
wants, fears and aspiration were all tied together with memories and also distinct as well, a sims could accomplish wants or fears according to their personality type (knowledge, romance, popularity, ETC) and this would carry positive or negative memories which would shape your sims future behaviour, interactions between sims would also shape not only their relationship (long and short term) but also their memories of that person, and (in the case of family members) even their personality, the gossip interaction could result in friendships being made or lost, relationships being broken, ETC, it actually HAD a meaning.
Sims could fail in life, a sim could have a screwed up childhood with bad parents which would result in a screwed up adult, personality points now had a directly visible effect on the behaviour of a sim (without a bright colourful banner telling you what your sims were feeling), aging now meant that Sims only had a limited time in which to win or lose at the game of life and even two identical sims with identical personalities could quickly become totally different to each other.
All this was later built upon again with a reputation system and personal chemistry, the former meant that sims would immediately have a positive or negative relationship upon meeting a sim, the latter mean that two sims no longer had to be attracted to the same things.
This was again built upon by an expanded personality system which allowed a successful sim to have an additional personality type as well as abilities resulting from that, improving relationships, allowing multi-sim phone calls, ETC.
TS3 is where it really started to go down the pan, the personality system was removed entirely and replaced with 'traits' which stood in place for a sims personality, and although they did allow for a wider selection of actual personalities, didn't have anywhere near as much impact as the previous systems. Motives no longer directly affected moods but instead generated 'moodlets', which were the primary controller to the point where a sim in a beautiful locale with well decorated rooms could almost ignore the fact that they were bored to tears. Memories were gone (so too long term personalities), as were interests (everyone loved everything in a conversation), and although a form of lifetime aspiration still existed, it had next to no effect on a sims personality, personal chemistry, reputation and fears were all gone... Sims no longer had to fear failure as much, two sims with identical traits would almost certainly be identical sims, two sims living in the same house could actually live their entire lives as strangers to each other and even death itself was toned down.
Even the different ages were not safe, with massive amounts of interactions between the different ages removed entirely and never replaced, sims would also now 'rarely' refuse a social interaction.
TS4 is where it went out the window, down the drain, into the sewer and out into the sewage processing plant before being flushed far out to sea to sink into the icy black depths, our sims personality is almost entirely gone, replaced by 'emotions', now regardless of traits, emotions define what a sim acts like and their 'whims' of the moment, relationships, love interests and even pregnancy can be made almost in an instant, death is a virtual stranger, a sims personality over the long term no longer has any relevance, actions barely have any consequences, family relationships no longer matter, sims never refuse a social interaction, and one of the few challenges to the game is getting a sim with autonomy on to actually do what YOU want them to.
The soul of the Sims is now well and truly dead.
I agree with your assessment overall. Ts2 improved upon the TS1 and then with Ts3 , that is where it all started to dissipate . Sims in Ts3 are robotic and unnatural to the point of being sad. If they had truly done an improvement of Ts3 personality system and brought more depth , I can only imagine how much fun Ts3 could have been.
You are exactly right though. Ts3 and ts4 are not truly improvements to the sims series at all. Because of the inattention to detail. Not only do our sims need personality, they need complexity and that should be there , by now.
@GoldenBuffy
Sort of like Ts2 but 10 times that
@ModerateOsprey
A sit down with some psychologists would have helped greatly. But they would only do that if they cared about deeping our game-playing experience, which im not sure they do.
No, it seems pretty obvious they don't really care about creating an actual life simulation, but rather simulacrum of one
Ah yes, a philosopher. Now that would have been sweet. Use a philosophical framework to nail the vision, then wheel in the psychologists to help establish the detail.
I bet they did consult a positive bevvy of bean counters and marketeers to make sure the vision was on point.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
TL;DR: Sims 4 basically doesn't have enough depth and content to compete with Sims 3. EVEN IF I only look at a few parts, and those are only ones that 4 could technically actually have.
The Loner trait:
In 3 it creates a Sim who almost never talks to anyone, rather stays inside of the house, minds his/her own business and gets extremely uncomfortable when there are too many people around. Even if that's in the family, or even at school/work.
In 4 however, my Sim will still talk as much as anyone else, gets a negligible amount of tenseness if there is a group of Sims VERY close to them. Making friends isn't too difficult either. At school or work they don't get any moodlets at all, and this is normal for ALL traits.
The huge gap between the effectiveness of traits that exist in both games is there in every case by the way. I just had a Loner Sim in 4 today, so I wanted to take a fresh example.
Traits, generally:
In 3 you get a huge bunch of them, and can assign up to 5 of them to an adult Sim. One for each life stage of growing up, makes sense. There are no special toddler traits or anything, and most traits are accessible by most age groups (probably because there are so many). It's easy to just never use a specific trait at all even after creating ridiculous amounts of diverse Sims (I never had a Vehicle Enthusiast in 136 hours, and that's just with the base game + ItF). The lifetime wish will NOT influence the Sim's personality as far as I know, though their wishes will often be caused by it.
In 4 there is only a very small amount of traits. They seem diverse at first, and they really are totally different from eachother. But their effects are so unnoticeable that you basically don't need to assign any traits. There are also so few different traits that I used each of them twice within my first 10 Sims. Even the extra trait added by the lifetime wish doesn't help there.
Lifetime Wishes: (I'll just call them that for both games right now)
It just feels much easier to choose one in Sims 3. There are some like "I want to recreate the Matrix!" or "Fear me, I'm the Emperor of Evil!" which are perfect for the sillier Sims I make, but the more serious/realistic ones can also choose from a wide variety of "I'll master one or more traits, either certain ones or just a few I choose" as well as "Why not be an astronaut/globally known journalist/president/etc.?". And all of these have one thing in common: They really take a long time to achieve. Wether you want to build a sentient robot, or woohoo with 10 different Sims, or just try to be a good author, it's really a LIFETIME wish.
In Sims 4 however I'm (once again) disappointed. You don't have as many, and those that do exist are kind of a middle thing between "hold my beer" and "will I even live long enough for this?". I also don't like how they all have different stages with certain lists of things you need to do. This means that no matter who receives this lifetime wish they WILL go through the exact same situations. In Sims 3, the LTWs are made in a way that allows the player to choose any possible way of achieving the goal. You could have a large family as a wish for example. In 4, this means you work on a to-do list that will always be the same no matter your Sim's traits.
At some point you'll need to control the Sim's children so they can grow to adults and get own children, so the Sim with the LTW can have grandkids which are necessary for a part of this. While in 3 you could either have this Sim just barely have the children even survive, basically teaching them nothing about actual behaviour, or you could give each of them the best life possible, with one Sim each dedicated to raising the children. Grandchildren don't matter, so generally your Sim's children can do whatever they want. If they all turn out to be homosexual and don't want children, then there in Sims 3 that's fine, while here in Sims 4 it means you need to choose another LTW for their father/mother.
Basically, only your own Sim needs to do the work in Sims 3, while in 4 you sometimes need to rely on other Sims' actions. That's not the purpose of an own lifetime wish.
Emotions:
Don't worry, this is just a link and not far too much text again. To a post I made back in December, because even then I was already fully capable of being annoyed by the suboptimal emotions in Sims 4
Of course the comparison to Sims 3 is missing there, but the point stands anyways.
http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/907607/bad-things-simply-dont-happen-or-nobody-cares/p1
For example, in Sims 2 the Lifetime Want was randomly chosen and the player could not change it without jumping through hoops. In Sims 3, the player could select from a group of Lifetime Wish depending upon traits. In Sims 4, you can select any Aspiration at any time, no matter the sims's traits. And ironically, it's that ability to choose that detracts from the depth. If any sim can do anything at any time, then it's solely up to the player to assign depth.
This is similar to the discussion in another thread about how the parents scolding their children is not autonomous, and that was immersion-breaking. The answer some gave in that thread was that the player determines what kind of parent they want their sims to be. Storytelling, not sim-led challenges.
I agree I would like to see more depth and I think updating the whim/aspiration system would go a long way toward that. I personally would prefer an aspiration system somewhere between Sims 2 and Sims 3. The Sims 3 had more meaningful wishes, and the Sims 2 fear/aspiration loss mechanic was great.
However, with the Sims 4 they apparently originally meant for whims to be optional (hence the term "whims" not "wants" or "wishes"). I made a comment in another thread about how I wanted the return of the Sims 2 fear system, and someone replied they didn't want the game telling them what their sims wanted, or how to play their game, they want to decide what their sims wanted. Again, it's the storytelling approach. As long as that is a predominant aim, even with more and more interactions, there won't be the depth. Because, in my opinion, ironically, depth originates from having some restriction. And this game has been moving towards eliminating restrictions.
Sim Stuff by Pegasys
Yeah, thats terrible, imo. Thats apart of what I was talking about when I said that sims dont have thoughts of their own or have their own identity. I can't care too much or become excited about sims who are just there to perform actions I TELL them to. While I still want them to do what I command when I command it, I would like for them to have more autonomous behavior that impacts the course of their days or lives
Especially now with parenthood, witnessing that should have an impact on your relationship. If we are meant to believe sims will remember how their dad was very relaxed with them and not a strict parent when they were growing up, it seems reasonable to me that an incident like that would hugely impact their relationship. It has done previously in the sims 2.
But it doesn't. Maybe as the player I'm meant to fill in the blanks and make the kid act out and the dad can react to that in whatever manner I choose but it doesn't feel "real" to me that way. I can't believe it.
I feel the same way about Sims 3. Granted, the sims are as developed and as in-depth as their Sims 2 counterparts, but there are many things I think makeup for that. The biggest ones being open world and CASt. But I would like to see Sims 5 take all of that (from both games) and up it, making it just awesome.
Do I wish that they'd do more with the traits? Sure.......like for instance if your sim was evil and mean, they'd do more than just perform mean interactions. They'd pull pranks anonymously, trip people up, etc.
Does that make or break the game? Certainly not. Why? Imagination.......it all comes full circle to that. I think that's what the devs want to keep. The ability to give us a specific amount of play without taking away our ability to imagine what it would be like to be them in their situations.
ETA: My saying that "you either like it or you don't and find a different game to love other than the sims" is NOT my way of saying not to play the game.......just to clarify......
My simblr: http://chiefdancingbear.tumblr.com/
Couldn't hurt for them to consult dedicated professionals though. But I would hope they'd be careful about who they consult, as some people in psychology just aren't very good at their job, or operate on outdated and/or ineffective models.
Again and respectfully, if it's that big of a deal it's just as easy for me to leave this thread, than it is for you to find happiness with something you enjoy. I'm simply hoping you find that happiness someday with this game or with another game that, in your eyes is better than what sims has to offer. And to tell me to go away (please note @SimGuruDrake @SimGuruBChick), really is against forum rules.
Also, the fact that you think that they are only doing the bare minimum is just your/some other's perspective.......not what actually is. Just like my viewpoint is my perspective of the game, not what actually is. We both are entitled to how we feel and we both are entitled to express it wherever we choose to express it. And in that I am sorry you feel the way you do about the game. In the end though, for the record, I never ONCE said I didn't care for this thread. I just wanted to respectfully put in my two cents......however unwanted it was by you.
My simblr: http://chiefdancingbear.tumblr.com/
Your comment doesn't make any sense. I shouldn't have to use my IMAGINATION, with something I am PAYING for!!!!
Don't tell me what game to play either. I have spent a lot of hard earned money on THIS game. So I get the right to say what I would like to see done BETTER. The game is shallow. The game needs more depth and complexity, period. It is not living up to it's title of a life simulation game, at all. If that upsets you, you don't have to be here. But I won't stop saying it. The thing is, this is a thread for people who DO want a deeper game-playing experience , to talk about how that could be accomplished. If you are perfectly fine with the sims, as it is, then carry on. But do not, by all means, tell me how to feel or what I should be playing , when I have spent my money and my time on this incomplete game. That is some kind of nerve , honestly. Again, people have the right to say that this game is not up to PAR and it is not. I can use my IMAGINATION for free!!!! I do not waste money on a game just so I can PRETEND that it is complex and interesting. That is the job of the creators to make it that way. Sheesh. Talk about lowering the bar.Imagination....smh
LMAO!!! Since when did I EVER say what you should and should not be feeling about the game?! Since when have I EVER told you what game to play?! And since when have I EVER, in my posts, prohibited you from telling people what you want to see as far as the game is concerned?! Oh....that's right.....I haven't.
In case you missed it, I said.....and I quote "You are entitled to how you feel" just as I am entitled to how I feel. Also, and I quote "You are entitled to express it" just as I'm allowed to express how I feel.
I have every right to be here in this thread and I never once said I disliked it. I have a right to express my opinions here.
My simblr: http://chiefdancingbear.tumblr.com/