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Analysis on Sims as a genre; why Sims 4 disappoints some and not others

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  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    Gruffman wrote: »
    To me, in my opinion it is like this:
    rubins-vase_zps86ihgpda.jpg
    Some people can look at the image and see two faces looking at each other. Other people might look at it and see a vase. In the end, both people are right.

    I can see it as both, but it's making my head hurt to try. :tongue:
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    So what's up with Sims 4? It's focused far too much on Simulation and far too little on Sandbox and RPG elements.
    I think this line nails it for me.
    5JZ57S6.png
  • Evil_OneEvil_One Posts: 4,423 Member
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    So what's up with Sims 4? It's focused far too much on Simulation and far too little on Sandbox and RPG elements.
    I think this line nails it for me.

    I don't know... I don't think it even simulates very well, the animations are all well and good but there's very little actual simulation going on behind them, Sims have very little personality and no memory at all.

    I'd say that the problem with the Sims 4 is that it's all show and no substance.
    raw
  • DecafHighDecafHigh Posts: 669 Member
    DC I know you are doing your best but sometimes people just don't want help. TS4 fans obviously fall into that. :D
  • TheGoodOldGamerTheGoodOldGamer Posts: 3,559 Member
    Somehow, I feel like you could get your points across in an OP that isn't 4115 words and nearly 6 printed pages in length.
    Live, laugh and love. Life's too short not to.
  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is:
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

    RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.

    So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.

    Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
    The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days :)

    Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
    The tabletop RPG games where you needed a gamemaster to set up the game - never interested me.

    But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal ;)

    The Sims 3 World Adventures was about solving series of quests in 3 different countries. While doing this you were the one who figured out how to do that and then just let your sim do it for you. So this was real role playing which TS4 to my knowledge doesn't have at all.
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited April 2017
    Evil_One wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    So what's up with Sims 4? It's focused far too much on Simulation and far too little on Sandbox and RPG elements.
    I think this line nails it for me.

    I don't know... I don't think it even simulates very well, the animations are all well and good but there's very little actual simulation going on behind them, Sims have very little personality and no memory at all.

    I'd say that the problem with the Sims 4 is that it's all show and no substance.
    I agree, but others don't so I leave that alone ;) The way I interpreted that line, is that Sims 4 focuses on short animated moments rather than on a bigger picture (like you say, the little actual simulation going on behind them). That includes the little personality and no memory.
    5JZ57S6.png
  • PegasysPegasys Posts: 1,135 Member
    About creative / sandbox (?) mode:

    Even though there are more building options in the previous versions, I find myself being more creative and building much more in Sims 4 than I was ever motivated to do in the previous games.

    Reason being? It's easier, faster, more fun, and the results look better with less effort. I have built in the previous games, but I love building in Sims 4. I never thought about creating a new restaurant in Sims 2, but I'm in the process of finishing up a restaurant for Sims 4 and it's been a blast doing so.

    Last week when I was trying to add onto a house in Sims 3 I kept getting frustrated with terrain issues and roofing. The roofing wouldn't go the direction I wanted. The object I was trying to place wouldn't work because the game kept saying the terrain wasn't level despite my repeated attempts to level it. It was stressful. I know there are more options for building in Sims 3 but I'm having more fun with it in Sims 4.

    It's kind of like Minecraft... when my daughter showed me Minecraft a handful a years ago, I was like what??! Just blocks? What is this, it's just digital Legos! How can anyone have fun with this?

    And then I started playing and realized that the simplicity leveled the playing field so you didn't have to be a 3D artist to create great builds in Minecraft. It's just about placing blocks, and ironically the limits increased creativity. That's one of the reasons why I think Minecraft is so popular today.
  • hannaht413hannaht413 Posts: 95 Member
    Pegasys wrote: »
    About creative / sandbox (?) mode:

    Even though there are more building options in the previous versions, I find myself being more creative and building much more in Sims 4 than I was ever motivated to do in the previous games.

    Reason being? It's easier, faster, more fun, and the results look better with less effort. I have built in the previous games, but I love building in Sims 4. I never thought about creating a new restaurant in Sims 2, but I'm in the process of finishing up a restaurant for Sims 4 and it's been a blast doing so.

    Last week when I was trying to add onto a house in Sims 3 I kept getting frustrated with terrain issues and roofing. The roofing wouldn't go the direction I wanted. The object I was trying to place wouldn't work because the game kept saying the terrain wasn't level despite my repeated attempts to level it. It was stressful. I know there are more options for building in Sims 3 but I'm having more fun with it in Sims 4.

    It's kind of like Minecraft... when my daughter showed me Minecraft a handful a years ago, I was like what??! Just blocks? What is this, it's just digital Legos! How can anyone have fun with this?

    And then I started playing and realized that the simplicity leveled the playing field so you didn't have to be a 3D artist to create great builds in Minecraft. It's just about placing blocks, and ironically the limits increased creativity. That's one of the reasons why I think Minecraft is so popular today.

    I absolutely agree. Even if we can't design neighborhoods, the designing tools are way better than in earlier versions of the game, with the sole exception of color selection, but for the most part, that doesn't cause too many issues in my builds. It's easier, it looks a lot cleaner, clutter is better, and I'm so much more enthusiastic about designing lots of different kinds of houses and venues because it's so much more fun. It's become one of the main things I do in the game, where I never used to design/decorate lots in the Sims 3, and when I play the Sims 2 Super Collection, if I try to redo a lot, it's so limiting and frustrating that I typically end up quitting the game. I do think that the gameplay for Sims 2 has more to offer, but if future packs have the same quality content as Vampires GP, that will quickly change.

    As for OP, one of the problems with someone saying "Be objective," (especially every time someone disagrees) is that argument synthesis is inherently unobjective. You can dive into every game and make a complete list of every single difference, but that doesn't change the fact that what you might consider "objectively" negative, someone else might think is an improvement, and you can certainly debate that, but telling someone to be objective does not constitute debate. It's dismissive and actively discourages engagement. There are very few if any arguments that hold up to analysis using only logos.
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited April 2017
    Pegasys wrote: »
    About creative / sandbox (?) mode:

    Even though there are more building options in the previous versions, I find myself being more creative and building much more in Sims 4 than I was ever motivated to do in the previous games.

    Reason being? It's easier, faster, more fun, and the results look better with less effort. I have built in the previous games, but I love building in Sims 4. I never thought about creating a new restaurant in Sims 2, but I'm in the process of finishing up a restaurant for Sims 4 and it's been a blast doing so.

    Last week when I was trying to add onto a house in Sims 3 I kept getting frustrated with terrain issues and roofing. The roofing wouldn't go the direction I wanted. The object I was trying to place wouldn't work because the game kept saying the terrain wasn't level despite my repeated attempts to level it. It was stressful. I know there are more options for building in Sims 3 but I'm having more fun with it in Sims 4.

    It's kind of like Minecraft... when my daughter showed me Minecraft a handful a years ago, I was like what??! Just blocks? What is this, it's just digital Legos! How can anyone have fun with this?

    And then I started playing and realized that the simplicity leveled the playing field so you didn't have to be a 3D artist to create great builds in Minecraft. It's just about placing blocks, and ironically the limits increased creativity. That's one of the reasons why I think Minecraft is so popular today.
    For me that's the other way around. Building in 4 indeed is easier, I love some of the new tools and wish they were in Sims 3 (the roofing for instance, and the ability to put windows at different heights). But at the end of the day all I'm doing is choosing and placing stuff other people created and it's just dull for me. I don't build to get a beautiful result, though I'm not dissatisfied with this:

    8034202_orig.png

    Cameron_0696a_zpsg7naukke.png

    Pretty proud even :p (the second house is an apartment by the way, my sim lives there with four other families). I build to give shape to a fantasy, a picture in my head, often based on houses I see irl or on the internet and always in relation to the sim I'm building it for. But it's the process of creating it all that makes building in 3 so addictive for me, not how it looks when it's done. And when I play there, after I built it, it all feels so very much mine and therefore my sim's.

    You mention Minecraft and in fact that's a perfect example, though apparently in a different way than it is for you. My son created a zoo in Minecraft and of course I was called to admire it. It was all blocks of course, but I got a 'guided tour' and the whole place, through his imagination and enthusiasm, came to life for me. Who cares it all looked like blocks, in his mind it was a zoo, his zoo. That's how it is for me in Sims as well (and Sims 3 looks way better than Minecraft :p ).
    5JZ57S6.png
  • OEII1001OEII1001 Posts: 3,682 Member
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is:
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

    RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.

    So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.

    Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
    The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days :)

    Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
    The tabletop RPG games where you needed a gamemaster to set up the game - never interested me.

    But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal ;)

    The Sims 3 World Adventures was about solving series of quests in 3 different countries. While doing this you were the one who figured out how to do that and then just let your sim do it for you. So this was real role playing which TS4 to my knowledge doesn't have at all.

    Actually, identifying yourself with a character is a mark of poor roleplay. I'm making the decisions that my character, the established character or my sim are making, not the choices that I would make. I am playing the character, but the character is not me. As such, the remark about The Sims series incorporating roleplay elements from day one stands. It is a pretty simple and obvious fact.
  • Sigzy05Sigzy05 Posts: 19,406 Member
    edited April 2017
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    Pegasys wrote: »
    About creative / sandbox (?) mode:

    Even though there are more building options in the previous versions, I find myself being more creative and building much more in Sims 4 than I was ever motivated to do in the previous games.

    Reason being? It's easier, faster, more fun, and the results look better with less effort. I have built in the previous games, but I love building in Sims 4. I never thought about creating a new restaurant in Sims 2, but I'm in the process of finishing up a restaurant for Sims 4 and it's been a blast doing so.

    Last week when I was trying to add onto a house in Sims 3 I kept getting frustrated with terrain issues and roofing. The roofing wouldn't go the direction I wanted. The object I was trying to place wouldn't work because the game kept saying the terrain wasn't level despite my repeated attempts to level it. It was stressful. I know there are more options for building in Sims 3 but I'm having more fun with it in Sims 4.

    It's kind of like Minecraft... when my daughter showed me Minecraft a handful a years ago, I was like what??! Just blocks? What is this, it's just digital Legos! How can anyone have fun with this?

    And then I started playing and realized that the simplicity leveled the playing field so you didn't have to be a 3D artist to create great builds in Minecraft. It's just about placing blocks, and ironically the limits increased creativity. That's one of the reasons why I think Minecraft is so popular today.
    For me that's the other way around. Building in 4 indeed is easier, I love some of the new tools and wish they were in Sims 3 (the roofing for instance, and the ability to put windows at different heights). But at the end of the day all I'm doing is choosing and placing stuff other people created and it's just dull for me. I don't build to get a beautiful result, though I'm not dissatisfied with this:

    8034202_orig.png

    Cameron_0696a_zpsg7naukke.png

    Pretty proud even :p (the second house is an apartment by the way, my sim lives there with four other families). I build to give shape to a fantasy, a picture in my head, often based on houses I see irl or on the internet and always in relation to the sim I'm building it for. But it's the process of creating it all that makes building in 3 so addictive for me, not how it looks when it's done. And when I play there, after I built it, it all feels so very much mine and therefore my sim's.

    You mention Minecraft and in fact that's a perfect example, though apparently in a different way than it is for you. My son created a zoo in Minecraft and of course I was called to admire it. It was all blocks of course, but I got a 'guided tour' and the whole place, through his imagination and enthusiasm, came to life for me. Who cares it all looked like blocks, in his mind it was a zoo, his zoo. That's how it is for me in Sims as well (and Sims 3 looks way better than Minecraft :p ).

    Building in TS4 is easier, but at the end of the day it's the worst build mode in all games.

    It's like trying to build with legos or real life materials.

    Legos is TS4 where it's easy and "cheap" and takes less time but there's a lot less freedom and richness, real life materials are TS3, you can take longer but make more rich and complex buildings that better reassemble life due to the amount of tools and customization.
    mHdgPlU.jpg?1
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    Sigzy05 wrote: »
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    Pegasys wrote: »
    About creative / sandbox (?) mode:

    Even though there are more building options in the previous versions, I find myself being more creative and building much more in Sims 4 than I was ever motivated to do in the previous games.

    Reason being? It's easier, faster, more fun, and the results look better with less effort. I have built in the previous games, but I love building in Sims 4. I never thought about creating a new restaurant in Sims 2, but I'm in the process of finishing up a restaurant for Sims 4 and it's been a blast doing so.

    Last week when I was trying to add onto a house in Sims 3 I kept getting frustrated with terrain issues and roofing. The roofing wouldn't go the direction I wanted. The object I was trying to place wouldn't work because the game kept saying the terrain wasn't level despite my repeated attempts to level it. It was stressful. I know there are more options for building in Sims 3 but I'm having more fun with it in Sims 4.

    It's kind of like Minecraft... when my daughter showed me Minecraft a handful a years ago, I was like what??! Just blocks? What is this, it's just digital Legos! How can anyone have fun with this?

    And then I started playing and realized that the simplicity leveled the playing field so you didn't have to be a 3D artist to create great builds in Minecraft. It's just about placing blocks, and ironically the limits increased creativity. That's one of the reasons why I think Minecraft is so popular today.
    For me that's the other way around. Building in 4 indeed is easier, I love some of the new tools and wish they were in Sims 3 (the roofing for instance, and the ability to put windows at different heights). But at the end of the day all I'm doing is choosing and placing stuff other people created and it's just dull for me. I don't build to get a beautiful result, though I'm not dissatisfied with this:

    8034202_orig.png

    Cameron_0696a_zpsg7naukke.png

    Pretty proud even :p (the second house is an apartment by the way, my sim lives there with four other families). I build to give shape to a fantasy, a picture in my head, often based on houses I see irl or on the internet and always in relation to the sim I'm building it for. But it's the process of creating it all that makes building in 3 so addictive for me, not how it looks when it's done. And when I play there, after I built it, it all feels so very much mine and therefore my sim's.

    You mention Minecraft and in fact that's a perfect example, though apparently in a different way than it is for you. My son created a zoo in Minecraft and of course I was called to admire it. It was all blocks of course, but I got a 'guided tour' and the whole place, through his imagination and enthusiasm, came to life for me. Who cares it all looked like blocks, in his mind it was a zoo, his zoo. That's how it is for me in Sims as well (and Sims 3 looks way better than Minecraft :p ).

    Building in TS4 is easier, but at the end of the day it's the worst build mode in all games.

    It's like trying to build with legos or real life materials.

    Legos is TS4 where it's easy and "cheap" and takes less time but there's a lot less freedom and richness, real life materials are TS3, you can take longer but make more rich and complex buildings that better reassemble life due to the amount of tools and customization.
    Easy just doesn't equal creative for me. And I agree with you.
    5JZ57S6.png
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    TS2 is still the number one game in my mind. TS1 is nostalgia and I loved it but it was very hard in many different ways. But it was new genre in gaming, and so, made it exciting. Playing TS4 has been a huge adjustment and sometimes not a good one...so that tells me/or you how differently TS4 is from the others if I had to make a huge adjustment from my usual sandbox.

    But as the marines say, adapt, overcome and improvise. :) It's a motto I have used in all of them.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • ElenaBoleynElenaBoleyn Posts: 1,084 Member
    I like both Sims 3 and 4. I really loved Sims medieval for it's RPG aspect. But I love Sims 3 and 4 because you can be more creative, though I think they will add more expansion packs and game packs as time goes on. People will eventually get whatever it is they want, but they will need to be patient since it doesn't happen with the snap of the fingers.
    tumblr_ngslmgsCVw1rsntc8o4_250.gif
  • comicsforlifecomicsforlife Posts: 9,585 Member
    I like sims 4 better I like there traits I think there the best sims so fare
    I don't anyone should have to explane way they like it
    we have a hard enough time with other gamers telling us our games are plume
    with out us telling each other that
    more for sim kids and more drama please
  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is:
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

    RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.

    So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.

    Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
    The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days :)

    Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
    The tabletop RPG games where you needed a gamemaster to set up the game - never interested me.

    But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal ;)

    The Sims 3 World Adventures was about solving series of quests in 3 different countries. While doing this you were the one who figured out how to do that and then just let your sim do it for you. So this was real role playing which TS4 to my knowledge doesn't have at all.

    Actually, identifying yourself with a character is a mark of poor roleplay. I'm making the decisions that my character, the established character or my sim are making, not the choices that I would make. I am playing the character, but the character is not me. As such, the remark about The Sims series incorporating roleplay elements from day one stands. It is a pretty simple and obvious fact.
    If you don't assume the role of your character then it is just simulation and not roleplaying. Just like it isn't roleplaying to send huge armies at war and then just return to recruite a new army after each battle. It is just simulation of a war. Your characters are just means to conduct the war. Just like your sims are just means to simulate life in your city if you just let them grow up and die to make room for your next sims and families.

    Read the articles on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_theory if you want to understand what roleplaying really is.
  • Jordan061102Jordan061102 Posts: 3,918 Member
    In TS4, sims really needs more personality. A sim don't remember if he has good grow up or not. The traits are not change the sim. A sim ambitious acts like a Sim reticent. The problem is here. They just have a little modlet, it's all... And worst, is emotions don't really change the gameplay. The sims team have to remake the personality, but we all know it will not arrive. We can just hope this for TS5. For return to the topic, Sims have to seems real, with personality and each differents. With this base, they can work around for others things. Is like you make a tower with the legos, if your base is not solid, the rest can't be solid.
    Lu4ERme.gif
  • Writin_RegWritin_Reg Posts: 28,907 Member
    edited April 2017
    OP in my view the Simmers most likely to love the Sims 4, just as it is, the most - are the newbies or people who have not a lot of experience with all the Sims series. (I still remember the first time I played The Sims when I tested it for Will Wright - I was literally blown away by that game - so I can associate to what newbies feel)

    Those of us most critical know the Sims inside and out from the very first game right to date - many of us have massive number of hours dominated by the Sims games over the past 17 plus years.... Also we pretty much earned the right to be most critical seeing the game has pretty much been a huge part of our last 17 plus years of life - never mind the huge overall cost involved in being a simmer and buying every thing ever made for the sims games - I think we did earn the right to say when we think what is being done is not right - in our view.

    In any thing a person mastered in life they are usually looked up to and respected by their communities - but because this is a game - we are talking about it seems instead we are often sneered... it is ironic.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    In dreams - I LIVE!
    In REALITY, I simply exist.....

  • PegasysPegasys Posts: 1,135 Member
    Writin_Reg wrote: »
    OP in my view the Simmers most likely to love the Sims 4, just as it is, the most - are the newbies or people who have not a lot of experience with all the Sims series. (I still remember the first time I played The Sims when I tested it for Will Wright - I was literally blown away by that game - so I can associate to what newbies feel)

    Those of us most critical know the Sims inside and out from the very first game right to date - many of us have massive number of hours dominated by the Sims games over the past 17 plus years.... Also we pretty much earned the right to be most critical seeing the game has pretty much been a huge part of our last 17 plus years of life - never mind the huge overall cost involved in being a simmer and buying every thing ever made for the sims games - I think we did earn the right to say when we think what is being done is not right - in our view.

    In any thing a person mastered in life they are usually looked up to and respected by their communities - but because this is a game - we are talking about it seems instead we are often sneered... it is ironic.

    I guess I'm an outlier, because I've played all Sims games (granted, didn't play Sims 1 long, but I did play it) and I love Sims 4.

    I think every one has the right to be critical or not, regardless of how long they have played the game. This doesn't need to be earned.

  • ElenaBoleynElenaBoleyn Posts: 1,084 Member
    Pegasys wrote: »
    Writin_Reg wrote: »
    OP in my view the Simmers most likely to love the Sims 4, just as it is, the most - are the newbies or people who have not a lot of experience with all the Sims series. (I still remember the first time I played The Sims when I tested it for Will Wright - I was literally blown away by that game - so I can associate to what newbies feel)

    Those of us most critical know the Sims inside and out from the very first game right to date - many of us have massive number of hours dominated by the Sims games over the past 17 plus years.... Also we pretty much earned the right to be most critical seeing the game has pretty much been a huge part of our last 17 plus years of life - never mind the huge overall cost involved in being a simmer and buying every thing ever made for the sims games - I think we did earn the right to say when we think what is being done is not right - in our view.

    In any thing a person mastered in life they are usually looked up to and respected by their communities - but because this is a game - we are talking about it seems instead we are often sneered... it is ironic.

    I guess I'm an outlier, because I've played all Sims games (granted, didn't play Sims 1 long, but I did play it) and I love Sims 4.

    I think every one has the right to be critical or not, regardless of how long they have played the game. This doesn't need to be earned.

    Indeed, everyone has their own opinions of what they think of the game and what could make it better.
    tumblr_ngslmgsCVw1rsntc8o4_250.gif
  • OEII1001OEII1001 Posts: 3,682 Member
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is:
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

    RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.

    So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.

    Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
    The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days :)

    Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
    The tabletop RPG games where you needed a gamemaster to set up the game - never interested me.

    But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal ;)

    The Sims 3 World Adventures was about solving series of quests in 3 different countries. While doing this you were the one who figured out how to do that and then just let your sim do it for you. So this was real role playing which TS4 to my knowledge doesn't have at all.

    Actually, identifying yourself with a character is a mark of poor roleplay. I'm making the decisions that my character, the established character or my sim are making, not the choices that I would make. I am playing the character, but the character is not me. As such, the remark about The Sims series incorporating roleplay elements from day one stands. It is a pretty simple and obvious fact.
    If you don't assume the role of your character then it is just simulation and not roleplaying. Just like it isn't roleplaying to send huge armies at war and then just return to recruite a new army after each battle. It is just simulation of a war. Your characters are just means to conduct the war. Just like your sims are just means to simulate life in your city if you just let them grow up and die to make room for your next sims and families.

    Read the articles on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_theory if you want to understand what roleplaying really is.

    Look, you're trying to lecture a guy that has been playing roleplaying games for 40 years, even though you yourself admit to having little to no experience with them. Bottom line is that roleplaying the character as an extension of yourself is poor form and for obvious reasons. That character is probably going to die, and certainly going to have bad stuff happen to them. Anybody who has ever played knows just what can happen around the table when that goes on.

    When you roleplay, one of the many things you do is to give the character a personality. You make the decisions that the character would make, not the ones that you would make. That's roleplaying 101.
  • Sk8rblazeSk8rblaze Posts: 7,570 Member
    edited April 2017
    Evil_One wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    So what's up with Sims 4? It's focused far too much on Simulation and far too little on Sandbox and RPG elements.
    I think this line nails it for me.

    I don't know... I don't think it even simulates very well, the animations are all well and good but there's very little actual simulation going on behind them, Sims have very little personality and no memory at all.

    I'd say that the problem with the Sims 4 is that it's all show and no substance.

    I think your last statement is the most accurate.

    Maybe my definition of simulation, sandbox, RPG elements, etc. is different, but I think TS4 does not focus enough on simulation. Firstly, the engine used in TS4 has to be one of the weakest (weaker than TS3!) for the simple reason it cannot handle simulating the few Sims it generates within a closed world without bugging out. How do you have more simulation lag in a closed world than in TS3's open world?

    The functionality of it all aside, the simulation in TS4 is just so.. uninspired and weak. Sims just feel generic and predictable. There is no.. interesting elements to it. Its been said so many times, but the emotion system truly was a failure for the franchise. The premise is good, but the execution was poor, as well as the thought that emotions would be enough to make a whole Sims game out of.

    As far as sandbox/RPG elements go, I define sandbox as being able to put a Sim in a world, and directly change absolutely anything and anyone within it. My Sim should be able to interact and change everything through myself. In TS4, it just feels TS4 does not perform well as a sandbox. I do not have anywhere near the amount of creativity and power as I once did in TS3, or even TS2.

    RPG elements do work in The Sims, if implemented correctly, but TS4 hasn't really found that sweet spot. I don't care about My Sims statues, gems, bugs, etc. There is so little I can actually do, as far as collecting/crafting go. It's unrewarding. Skills feel boring as well. Just all of what could fall anywhere near "RPG elements" in TS4 is so poorly added, and is more so on the status of mobile app gameplay, which is no shocker, considering a lot of the developers came from that sort of background (including ex-lead Rachel Franklin). It should come as no surprise the core gameplay of The Sims 4 is the absolute most boring and uninspired in the franchise's history.

    I could go into more detail, but to make a long post short, if there is to be a TS5, they will need to massively change things up, including the gameplay especially. The core gameplay of The Sims should be far more interested and complex than what we have in TS4 and its various horribly boring systems (especially the aspiration system -- yuck). I'm tired of playing a rehashed, uninspired TS2, with EA trying to get away with recharging us increased prices for simple objects with new animations attached.
  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is:
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

    RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.

    So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.

    Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
    The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days :)

    Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
    The tabletop RPG games where you needed a gamemaster to set up the game - never interested me.

    But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal ;)

    The Sims 3 World Adventures was about solving series of quests in 3 different countries. While doing this you were the one who figured out how to do that and then just let your sim do it for you. So this was real role playing which TS4 to my knowledge doesn't have at all.

    Actually, identifying yourself with a character is a mark of poor roleplay. I'm making the decisions that my character, the established character or my sim are making, not the choices that I would make. I am playing the character, but the character is not me. As such, the remark about The Sims series incorporating roleplay elements from day one stands. It is a pretty simple and obvious fact.
    If you don't assume the role of your character then it is just simulation and not roleplaying. Just like it isn't roleplaying to send huge armies at war and then just return to recruite a new army after each battle. It is just simulation of a war. Your characters are just means to conduct the war. Just like your sims are just means to simulate life in your city if you just let them grow up and die to make room for your next sims and families.

    Read the articles on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_theory if you want to understand what roleplaying really is.

    Look, you're trying to lecture a guy that has been playing roleplaying games for 40 years, even though you yourself admit to having little to no experience with them. Bottom line is that roleplaying the character as an extension of yourself is poor form and for obvious reasons. That character is probably going to die, and certainly going to have bad stuff happen to them. Anybody who has ever played knows just what can happen around the table when that goes on.
    You can play hundreds of roleplaying games and other games. But if you haven't any interest in dividing your games in categories then you will likely just call them all roleplaying games even though they aren't ;)

    You praise roleplaying games but at the same time you think that your character is likely to die because this happens in other types of games like war games and a life simulation game like TS4. But I can assure you that it has never happened in the roleplaying games that I have played. If it happens anyway I will be told that I have lost the game and asked if I want to reload an earlier savegame :)
    When you roleplay, one of the many things you do is to give the character a personality. You make the decisions that the character would make, not the ones that you would make. That's roleplaying 101.
    Agreed. But there usually isn't any difference. Roleplaying games are about fantasies and you are unlikely to ever be in such situations yourself ever. So it is much easier to be brave on your character's behalf in a game than it would be if it was yourself in your real life. After all if your character dies in a roleplaying game then you can just load your latest savegame and try again.

    But killing your characters to get room for your characters children to take over like you do in the Sims games has nothing to do with roleplaying. It is just life simulation about playing the same family in several generations without caring about the indivual members of the family. Just like sending an army at war without caring about the individuals and their lives in games like Starcraft has nothing to do with roleplaying. Yes you can change the look of the characters in many wargames too. But after you maybe have done that you usually don't care about those characters anyway (except as war machines). This isn't roleplaying even though the idea to let you modify the looks of your soldiers and war machines is stolen from roleplaying games.
  • ratsrbestratsrbest Posts: 579 Member
    @Sk8rblaze - you've touched on a couple of things that have been bugging me.

    Except for making loads of money, what's the point of collecting stuff any more? What's the point of squillions of My Sims Trophies?

    How many crystals does a Sim need to fall overx erm, place in their home to enhance their moods?

    Unless the Sim is a scientist the crystals have no more value. If the Sim is a scientist they need to bring a selection to work every day (plus plants and metals) in case they're needed. And where's the reward for being so conscientious? Apparently, everything in the Sim's inventory is counted when the game is assessing the amount of tax owed.

    In Sims 3 we had the wonderful Consignment Shop, a gem cutter, the Alchemy thingy, and self-employment. All those things made collecting worthwhile.

    And Aspirations? I recently fulfilled my Sim's Nature Aspiration and was looking forward to a bit of a fanfare, maybe a shedload of reward points. Did I miss those?

    All those expensive visits to Granite Falls, all that scratching about looking for bugs, the hugely disappointing Herbalism 'hobby' and what did I get? My Sim now has a Survivalist trait, meaning she will enjoy her time spent in a tent a bit more.

    Oh, goody.

    Now I've chosen a new Aspiration for her but there doesn't seem much point to it.
    Don't feed the trolls
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