Terrain editing tools are likewise completely absent, despite this being a feature that's existed since Sims 1 in every base game.
I must say that the fact that TS4 doesn't have terrain editing tools, baffles me. The main argument was that it makes gallery uploading easier and that it was a problem in TS3 that people downloaded lots from the gallery but then they were sloped and didn't work etc. BUT listen here: TS3's lots could be sloped if the surrounding area is sloped, and as a result, a flat or differently sloped lot would look out of place. Since TS4's lots (and generally the worlds) are all flat by default, thus fitting on any other lot perfectly and blending with the flat surroundings, it would still work on any other lot because the altered terrain is copied from the flat terrain to the new flat terrain. It's like putting a 3D sticker on a piece of paper, then cutting out the sticker and placing it on a new piece of paper. It's still the same because the original ground area is still flat.
And, of course, it would be pretty clear if a lot on the gallery has altered terrain, because you can see at what level the edges are and see if there is a hill going upwards or downwards. To make it even easier to spot, a tag could automatically attach itself to a lot if the terrain is edited, allerting people on the gallery that it is edited. There could even be an option to filter out lots with edited terrain, similar to filtering out lots with custom content or objects from certain packs.
It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.
Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?
I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.
I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.
Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.
Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
Was The Sims 2 bad?
Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.
Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.
Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.
I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.
I feel your statements that The Sims 4 is less Sandbox than the rest, as totally incorrect. But explaining it, and going to that effort, isn't going to say anything more than "I don't agree".
People consider the original Sims the "ultimate Sandbox" out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options.
I find the Aspiration system in 2, makes the game linear unless you cheat. The game is built around the Aspiration system, which is a linear concept. But people tell me to cheat it off. But then that's not the game, is it?
Aspirations are forced on you, and you're forced to complete tasks or your Sims go insane. I'm forced to WooHoo with 3 different people, I'm forced to send my Sims to Private School with the Family Aspiration. My Sims needs drop faster in a lower Aspiration level, the game punishes me for not completing goals. That's what the Sims 2 is, a goal system based Simulation.
But "just ignore it" people say, cheat through it. If The Sims 4 forced you to complete the Aspiration goals or your Sims needs would drop faster and they would refuse to do tasks, and have mental breakdowns, people would be livid. But it was okay in 2?
At the end of the day, people are going to have problems with one game they ignored in the other. They're going to see the same product different.
I've tried doing Challenges in 2/3 & 4, and 4 gives me the most freedom, and is set up better for them. That would mean it's more Sandbox, but to me and what I need. 3 has problems generating a variety of Sims without mods, and struggles with multiple generations and crashes with big houses as it pushes it over the 2GB limit. I can't use it for the challenges I want. It doesn't support what I need from a Sandbox.
It just depends.
Really? Forced seems a bit of a strong word! I have very few sims who complete their LTW usually because I have a story in mind for them that may not involve topping a certain career. I've ignored certain strong wishes before and while my sims aren't the happiest sims in the world they by all means are not having Aspiration failure every day. I don't cheat.
I didn't need to, of the 4 wants one of them may be woohoo with 3 people but If I didn't want my sims to do that I ignored it and fulfilled the other wants. The game didn't punish me for it. I can still play my game the way I want too.
It's interesting you find the sims 4 the best for challenges, I prefer the sims 2. Challenges in the sims 4 are too easy for me and I've found my sims don't really care about poor surroundings. I like a challenge so I always use 2.
You're looking for a logical explanation that's right in front of you and that's
People like different things
Games don't have to appeal to everyone and they really can't. I don't like 3 but do I hold it against the game, no. I'm a human with personal tastes and 3 simply never aligned with them. Sure some games can be bad but with the history of Sims I'd hate to say it but they're all pretty average and I believe the popularity came from the concept and not quality. Each game had glaring drawbacks some worse than others but either way they tend to level out. Sims 4 has tiny hoods but 3 had had empty neighbourhoods, Sims 2 got very restrictive but Sims 3 had too many rabbit holes. Sure you can downplay the issue or claim you don't have it but you can do that with all of them. Sims is what it is and will likely never have an iteration loved by everyone but as long as you have one you love that can sometimes be all you need.
The Sims is a franchise and like any franchise its fanbase will be divided about which game they like the most. much like The Elder Scrolls fanbase is divided about which Elder Scrolls game is the best. (yes.. everyone doesn't like skyrim & some in the fanbase consider it to be dumbed down) other than that IMO I don't feel like The Sims 4 is too focused on Simulation VS whatever it is people call a sandbox it's funny because I remember TS2 fans saying the exact same thing about TS3 many years ago.
It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.
Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?
I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.
I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.
Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.
Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
Was The Sims 2 bad?
Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.
Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.
Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.
I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.
I feel your statements that The Sims 4 is less Sandbox than the rest, as totally incorrect. But explaining it, and going to that effort, isn't going to say anything more than "I don't agree".
People consider the original Sims the "ultimate Sandbox" out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options.
I find the Aspiration system in 2, makes the game linear unless you cheat. The game is built around the Aspiration system, which is a linear concept. But people tell me to cheat it off. But then that's not the game, is it?
Aspirations are forced on you, and you're forced to complete tasks or your Sims go insane. I'm forced to WooHoo with 3 different people, I'm forced to send my Sims to Private School with the Family Aspiration. My Sims needs drop faster in a lower Aspiration level, the game punishes me for not completing goals. That's what the Sims 2 is, a goal system based Simulation.
But "just ignore it" people say, cheat through it. If The Sims 4 forced you to complete the Aspiration goals or your Sims needs would drop faster and they would refuse to do tasks, and have mental breakdowns, people would be livid. But it was okay in 2?
At the end of the day, people are going to have problems with one game they ignored in the other. They're going to see the same product different.
I've tried doing Challenges in 2/3 & 4, and 4 gives me the most freedom, and is set up better for them. That would mean it's more Sandbox, but to me and what I need. 3 has problems generating a variety of Sims without mods, and struggles with multiple generations and crashes with big houses as it pushes it over the 2GB limit. I can't use it for the challenges I want. It doesn't support what I need from a Sandbox.
It just depends.
Really? Forced seems a bit of a strong word! I have very few sims who complete their LTW usually because I have a story in mind for them that may not involve topping a certain career. I've ignored certain strong wishes before and while my sims aren't the happiest sims in the world they by all means are not having Aspiration failure every day. I don't cheat.
I didn't need to, of the 4 wants one of them may be woohoo with 3 people but If I didn't want my sims to do that I ignored it and fulfilled the other wants. The game didn't punish me for it. I can still play my game the way I want too.
It's interesting you find the sims 4 the best for challenges, I prefer the sims 2. Challenges in the sims 4 are too easy for me and I've found my sims don't really care about poor surroundings. I like a challenge so I always use 2.
Well, yeah.
After about a Sim week, if I don't complete at least 3 goals a week, I get an Aspiration failure every 3 Sim days. Which is annoying.
I love The Sims 2, but I literally had a mod back in the day that makes everyone Gold 24/7.
I shouldn't be forced to complete goals just to play the game. For careers? Sure. But just to play? No.
Forced is that I have to factor in goal based gameplay in The Sims 2, there's no "off" feature.
The Sims 2 is only really good for Rags to Riches. I've tried a Legacy Challenge in 2, and 100 Baby Challenge etc. and find because the game doesn't populate townies like 4 does, or no one ages, it's super hard to play.
Plus, having to focus on Needs and Aspirations in 2, often means you spend 70% of your day filling needs and completing goals. Leaving 30% to do what you need.
100 Baby Challenge was so annoying in 2, because I would move Sims out and they wouldn't age, so I'd be on my second Sim who was an adult, the mother has died, and yet my first Son was still an adult. It was just so weird.
They really should have thought The Sims 2 through a bit more. I *know* it was in 2004, but surely a game based on families etc. this should have been something they ran into. I mean, The Sims on Wii even has Sims aging separately, and it's a simple engine.
Terrain editing tools are likewise completely absent, despite this being a feature that's existed since Sims 1 in every base game.
I must say that the fact that TS4 doesn't have terrain editing tools, baffles me. The main argument was that it makes gallery uploading easier and that it was a problem in TS3 that people downloaded lots from the gallery but then they were sloped and didn't work etc. BUT listen here: TS3's lots could be sloped if the surrounding area is sloped, and as a result, a flat or differently sloped lot would look out of place. Since TS4's lots (and generally the worlds) are all flat by default, thus fitting on any other lot perfectly and blending with the flat surroundings, it would still work on any other lot because the altered terrain is copied from the flat terrain to the new flat terrain. It's like putting a 3D sticker on a piece of paper, then cutting out the sticker and placing it on a new piece of paper. It's still the same because the original ground area is still flat.
And, of course, it would be pretty clear if a lot on the gallery has altered terrain, because you can see at what level the edges are and see if there is a hill going upwards or downwards. To make it even easier to spot, a tag could automatically attach itself to a lot if the terrain is edited, allerting people on the gallery that it is edited. There could even be an option to filter out lots with edited terrain, similar to filtering out lots with custom content or objects from certain packs.
They actually had terrain editing in the BETA, so it was more likely done for routing too.
Also, without sloped lots, there's not much need for terrain editing anyway. Which is why they probably aren't going to spend funds reintroducing a system again, that they already spent money on, and scrapped.
It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.
Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?
I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.
I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.
Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.
Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
Was The Sims 2 bad?
Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.
Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.
Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.
I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.
I feel your statements that The Sims 4 is less Sandbox than the rest, as totally incorrect. But explaining it, and going to that effort, isn't going to say anything more than "I don't agree".
People consider the original Sims the "ultimate Sandbox" out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options.
I find the Aspiration system in 2, makes the game linear unless you cheat. The game is built around the Aspiration system, which is a linear concept. But people tell me to cheat it off. But then that's not the game, is it?
Aspirations are forced on you, and you're forced to complete tasks or your Sims go insane. I'm forced to WooHoo with 3 different people, I'm forced to send my Sims to Private School with the Family Aspiration. My Sims needs drop faster in a lower Aspiration level, the game punishes me for not completing goals. That's what the Sims 2 is, a goal system based Simulation.
But "just ignore it" people say, cheat through it. If The Sims 4 forced you to complete the Aspiration goals or your Sims needs would drop faster and they would refuse to do tasks, and have mental breakdowns, people would be livid. But it was okay in 2?
At the end of the day, people are going to have problems with one game they ignored in the other. They're going to see the same product different.
I've tried doing Challenges in 2/3 & 4, and 4 gives me the most freedom, and is set up better for them. That would mean it's more Sandbox, but to me and what I need. 3 has problems generating a variety of Sims without mods, and struggles with multiple generations and crashes with big houses as it pushes it over the 2GB limit. I can't use it for the challenges I want. It doesn't support what I need from a Sandbox.
It just depends.
Really? Forced seems a bit of a strong word! I have very few sims who complete their LTW usually because I have a story in mind for them that may not involve topping a certain career. I've ignored certain strong wishes before and while my sims aren't the happiest sims in the world they by all means are not having Aspiration failure every day. I don't cheat.
I didn't need to, of the 4 wants one of them may be woohoo with 3 people but If I didn't want my sims to do that I ignored it and fulfilled the other wants. The game didn't punish me for it. I can still play my game the way I want too.
It's interesting you find the sims 4 the best for challenges, I prefer the sims 2. Challenges in the sims 4 are too easy for me and I've found my sims don't really care about poor surroundings. I like a challenge so I always use 2.
Well, yeah.
After about a Sim week, if I don't complete at least 3 goals a week, I get an Aspiration failure every 3 Sim days. Which is annoying.
I love The Sims 2, but I literally had a mod back in the day that makes everyone Gold 24/7.
I shouldn't be forced to complete goals just to play the game. For careers? Sure. But just to play? No.
Forced is that I have to factor in goal based gameplay in The Sims 2, there's no "off" feature.
The Sims 2 is only really good for Rags to Riches. I've tried a Legacy Challenge in 2, and 100 Baby Challenge etc. and find because the game doesn't populate townies like 4 does, or no one ages, it's super hard to play.
Plus, having to focus on Needs and Aspirations in 2, often means you spend 70% of your day filling needs and completing goals. Leaving 30% to do what you need.
100 Baby Challenge was so annoying in 2, because I would move Sims out and they wouldn't age, so I'd be on my second Sim who was an adult, the mother has died, and yet my first Son was still an adult. It was just so weird.
They really should have thought The Sims 2 through a bit more. I *know* it was in 2004, but surely a game based on families etc. this should have been something they ran into. I mean, The Sims on Wii even has Sims aging separately, and it's a simple engine.
Well I disagree that you *have to* complete goals, I don't and my sims don't have Aspiration failure daily. The player has freedom to do what they want to do. I have a sim who's LTW is to have 50 first dates, however she met Someone and after two dates she started rolling wants to marry this guy repeatedly so I let her. I find that out of all the games the sims 2 lets my creative side flow the easiest as I can do what I want to do, my sims react accordingly which is good but I never feel I have to do what the game tells me too.
I play a Legacy, I'm on generation 4. So far I've yet to encounter any population issues?
I kind of see what you mean about aging and I do agree with what you are saying at times. For challenges yeah if you aren't playing on playing the spare sims I do see how it's annoying they don't age, but I could age my sims npc friends on my sims birthday so that isn't a problem.
But I like the fact when I rotate in the sims 2, my family will be exactly how I left them. It sometimes annoys me in later games when I rotate and their lives have changed totally. In my sims 4 game my lazy loner has level 5 body skill and two love interests, I didn't want either! That bothers me more than anything. I don't want my sims going off and making changes like that without my input. Particularly when it doesn't make sense.
But then I get attached to my sims and i am control freak over my sims lives that's probably why I like the sims 2 the best for rotational play:-)
I am not as smart as you are on the subject of what is RPG Sandbox or simulation. I just know that sims 4 does lack some things for me.
As just a player of sims games to relieve my stress, the sims 4 seems to fill that ,bill better than the others. However I do find myself doing more CAS than in the other games, using more custom content, and remaking all the homes and venues and not doing much game playing. I often wondered why that was. Through this post I am seeing that it is because there are aspects of the game missing for my play style, which I never knew I had.
I will play a new pack, like the bowling pack for awhile, I try all the new aspects, then go back looking up CC making sims, and furnishing and making houses and improved, for me as I am not really good at it, venues.
I lose interest in playing the actual game, if there is nothing new.
One thing that I do not miss is the game plays for me without lag and shutters and does not go to the desktop. See, I play to relieve stress not to have the game give me stress. Sims 3 gave me stress as it would not play well on a good computer. So I really can't compare those.
In the sims 2 I did not cheat, I cheated heavily in the sims 3 and cheat some in 4. I wish I did not have to cheat to make the game better but that seems to be what is happening.
The only facts I have to back any of my statements is what I find are my habits in the game.
Thanks for the back and forth on the posts, I now u understand some of the reasons why I play the way I do.
What's bugging me most about TS4 is that traits don't matter as much.
Sims with incompatible traits don't have as much built in drama like they did in TS2 and TS3.
And there isn't much cause and effect with socialization between sims. Nothing interesting happens unless you make it happen. There isn't much emergent game play. And since emotions are the main game play mechanic and all sims go through the same emotions with minor trait tweaks, they don't feel as individualistic as they do in other sims games.
I have a much simpler take on the whole thing.....if everyone liked and/or disliked the same things we would not get choices. I think for me a lot has to do with mood, some days I love it, other days I hate it......just like anything in life you have to take the bad with the good. If you don't like it walk away, don't look back, and find something you enjoy every aspect of. Good luck.
What's bugging me most about TS4 is that traits don't matter as much.
Sims with incompatible traits don't have as much built in drama like they did in TS2 and TS3.
And there isn't much cause and effect with socialization between sims. Nothing interesting happens unless you make it happen. There isn't much emergent game play. And since emotions are the main game play mechanic and all sims go through the same emotions with minor trait tweaks, they don't feel as individualistic as they do in other sims games.
I do like making the drama happen on my own as sometimes the drama in sims 2 and 3 did not make much sense.
Your analysis is very thought provoking and in my case accurate. Although there are a few minor annoyances for the most part I'm satisfied with the game and the direction in which it is headed. Mainly because I'm more of a simulation player. My sims, work, go to school, do their homework, have dinner together every night, have family get togethers, go on vacation, etc. On the weekends they visit friends, go out for a meal, have movie night, visit the library and museum. All things the stereotypical nuclear family does. I see the game as an extension of real life and this is one of the reasons why I'm not particularly fond of the supernatural features. When I do play a supernatural character it's one as similar to the human state as possible. Usually witches and occasionally vampires with none of the paleness and special effects facial features.
I'd also consider myself a quest kind of girl in that I love the daily tasks and the feeling of achievement in mastering all the aspirations, skills, careers, unlocking the career rewards, etc. Not exactly sure which category that would fall under.
The lack of sandbox isn't an issue for me as I do prefer having a goal to work toward, a checklist of sorts. I'm also not particularly fond of building and the game provides me with enough choices to satisfactorily design and decorate my sims' homes.
I'm not sure how RPG fits into my style of playing. Maybe not so much as I have yet to complete the Scientist career or play as a vampire. I do plan on it but for right now its not a priority.
Just wanted to add another tidbit about the role of sandbox in my game as far as customizing your world. This is a feature I still love in Sims 3. Right now I'm trying to finish up reinstalling all my packs and store stuff and can't wait until I can start putting my little world together. And that's why it's not at all a concern for me in Sims 4. In my Sims 3 game I probably spend more time getting a world set up to play than actually playing. I'm always looking for that perfect world. And I like that. In Sims 4 I'm focusing more on actual gameplay because those options just aren't available.
A big part of the sims is not just the gameplay, but the creative outlets it provides. It has a dual purpose that turns it into not just a game, but a hobby. That is its attraction.
I like to compare TS4 to Coca Cola Classic. When Coca Cola changed the recipe for its long held, tried and true, original Coke, all hell broke loose! There was a big backlash from its consumers, sales dropped dramatically, and people protested loud and clear. This forced Coca Cola to rethink its strategy and backtrack to what the Consumers WANTED! After the dismal failure of the last version of Sims City you would think that EA/Maxis would have sit up and taken notice. I know that they changed course of TS4 after that fiasco, but the course they changed to is not the course many fans wished to see. So, I feel abandoned...
"If you build it, they will come." - Movie: Field of Dreams
I'm total sandbox, I love creating the world the way I want it, and loved sims3. I use cheats on aspirations, skills etc. I just want to get on to doing what I want to do. One thing I wish they didn't do was saying you have to have certain items for a park etc. What if I don't want that huge ship thing in my park? Or if I want to do a party, Or a wedding, there is a long laundry list of thing they want you to do. NO! I want to do it my way. I wish they would stop telling us what to do. I hope if there is a sims5, they bring back elements of sims3, and all the goodies we had there.
What's bugging me most about TS4 is that traits don't matter as much.
Sims with incompatible traits don't have as much built in drama like they did in TS2 and TS3.
And there isn't much cause and effect with socialization between sims. Nothing interesting happens unless you make it happen. There isn't much emergent game play. And since emotions are the main game play mechanic and all sims go through the same emotions with minor trait tweaks, they don't feel as individualistic as they do in other sims games.
Agreed. You'd think since Sims 4 puts so much emphasis on relationships, communication and socializing there'd be more emphasis on traits, incompatibility and family relationships. I don't know if they plan on dropping a generations like game pack but the family dynamic frustrates me the most. I feel like in Sims 2 (and at certain times) in Sims 3 you had a stronger sense of family whereas with Sims 4, they're just all living under one roof and happen to share a last name or a few features. And the same goes with friendships as well. It's not hard to make someone who hated you, love you. I've gone the "mischief" route several times and when I got bored, made my sim's former enemies their friends within the hour.
supersonic, simobotic, disconnected, not respected, who would ever really wanna go and top that?
In my opinion I think that we'd compare versions less if each release wasn't just a stripped down replica of past versions of the game. I was pretty bummed when I saw the poll for the next stuff pack gave few options for new features but instead just recycled packs from Sims 3. Many of us requested farms when pets was released for Sims 3 so why not a farm pack to be released along with the inevitable Sims 4 Pets? If you keep giving us the same thing over and over of course we'll have certain expectations based on what we experienced in the past. If they really want to break that cycle how about giving us something completely new - a pack that's not just recycled Sims 2/3 concepts?
We can't stop bringing up Sims 2/3 because they won't stop repackaging those games and reselling them to us.
It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.
Different art styles, different aesthetics, different audiences.
That's not a fact, because it's not true. Bottom line 'The Sims' is about simulating virtual people, playing 'God' in a sense where you can choose to direct them or not as they fulfill day to day activities until they die. That is true for all four Sims games.
The differences come from the individual makeup of content, features, and tools that are provided along with the game.
Art style, aesthetic are totally irrelevant. Someone's perception on the art style is wholly subjective, same for the aesthetics, neither works toward making a game different. That's a superficial idea of difference. Difference comes in the form of how Game 1 plays vs Game 2. Removing all of the sideline content, and focusing on the bottom line purpose for the game, do they really appear all that different? The only big difference is the addition of aging and different age groups, which has been a standard component since The Sims 2. Aside from the general goal being the exact same for every age group, the difference there is minimal. Does painting my house yellow instead of green make it completely different? Does putting up a garden out front change really anything about my house? Short answer is no.
Audience is another irrelevant factor. Do you think players of The Sims 2 were a completely different audience than The Sims? How about for The Sims 3? How many people do we have currently on this forum that have experience playing the previous games? Maxis cannot control who their audience is, they can, however, selectively target specific demographics but that doesn't do a company any good if they ignore their established following, which clearly isn't the issue.
I'm not trying to get into a who's better discussion, but you can't say 'The Sims 4' is a completely different game when the general goal is the same as the other three games. I would never, ever be so quick to label my product 'completely different' - in TS4's case that was damage control. What better way to discourage your pool of existing customers who are looking at the new game based on their experience with the old. Notice how they didn't say new and improved, they said different. They're taking a different approach with this game, not a better approach, or any adjective that could describe the shift as one that was made for the greater good of the game, but a different one. To me that sounds rather uncertain, but that's just me.
It's pretty simple. I'm one of the people who have less interest in TS4 compared to its predecessors, for the simple reason that sandboxes are one of my favorite genres. TS3 is the best sandbox. TS2 has a bit less sandbox features but it can still qualify with creating neighborhoods, and its sims are full of life and quite lovable to a point that TS3 and TS4 haven't managed to reach. TS4 just allows making sims from predefined templates, allows only limited and simplistic personalities, has limited building features and so many games that aren't qualified as sandboxes include the same features, it doesn't allow any more customization of the environment or details, it forces to follow a more linear gameplay that's more RPG-like than before, and therefore isn't really a sandbox. It doesn't feel creative enough to feel mine and the only way it keeps my interest is by allowing reprogramming it because it's the only remaining way to feel like "I rule"...
I'm total sandbox, I love creating the world the way I want it, and loved sims3. I use cheats on aspirations, skills etc. I just want to get on to doing what I want to do. One thing I wish they didn't do was saying you have to have certain items for a park etc. What if I don't want that huge ship thing in my park? Or if I want to do a party, Or a wedding, there is a long laundry list of thing they want you to do. NO! I want to do it my way. I wish they would stop telling us what to do. I hope if there is a sims5, they bring back elements of sims3, and all the goodies we had there.
So true.
If we can't play God any longer, this isn't a sandbox any longer. And then a big part of the interest is gone.
I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is: "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is: "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
I am not as smart as you are on the subject of what is RPG Sandbox or simulation. I just know that sims 4 does lack some things for me.
Wanna clarify there's no "smart" here, those definitions are more or less ones provided. What I mean is, it's rather unimportant how much my given definitions match the standardized definition of those genres, but rather the purpose of those definitions is merely to be understood and help get my point across. I just wanted to divide the playerbase into three seperate types of fans I feel I've seen browsing the forums, as two definitely feel on the light side.
I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is:
"A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
Realize RPGs especially are a rather broad genre with a broad definition. A western RPG such as Fallout New Vegas for example heavily stresses choice and consequence, seeking to have the journey unfold different depending on the choices of the player. A JRPG by contrast is often heavily devoid of choices, instead with the only common link being a sense of character progression as new skills are obtained over time and as characters level up. If we were to discuss that definition, it wouldn't be the first time it's debated, even amongst die-hard fans of the genre.
The exact definition isn't so important here anyways. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." What is important is the proposed characteristics of the RPG fans in the context of the Sims. For example, you say you'd replace RPG elements with time management elements being the third most important factor. The problem with this is I fail to see how Sims 4 fails at functioning as a time management game. I'd argue Sims 1, 2, 3 and 4 are pretty much dead even in that regard, with difficulty being the only differing factor, placing Sims 3 as the weakest in that group. I have sincere doubts a major complaint with Sims 4 is time management. Meanwhile, speaking personally I can tell you I do have a problem with the lack of Sims diversity, aka a lack of RPG elements. We need more meaningful career rewards, we need more life states, and we need more meaningful personality traits and skill rewards. Those are my exact qualms with the series, because as it stands I cannot name a skill that makes my Sims function differently in a super meaningful way, scientist is the only career that stands out as highly unique in terms of what it lets sims do, and we have a grand total of two life states, one of which doesn't do much at all. (though the other is amazing)
I mean I could be wrong about RPG fans being a notable portion of the fans, that's part of why the discussion is here. However, put plainly, I have not seen any complaints related to time management, while I have seen complaints that all Sims feel the same or that the current personality traits are rather weak. Vampires, an RPG-style GP, proved rather popular too, so I've got several reasons to view RPG elements as one of the key parts of the Sims as a franchise, so it'd make sense to see so many disappointed customers if it (and sandbox tools) are neglected.
I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is: "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days
I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is: "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days
Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
Look at the type of content the Sims 4 has produced and you'll notice a clear pattern: much of the content relates to things that you and I might be expected to do in real life. We could visit the Spa, we could go bowling, we could go clubbing and dancing, we might enjoy the typical aspects of living in a city, we might enjoy karaoke, etc etc. It feels like very frequently, the Sims team sits down and asks themselves "what are some things that people like to do in real life," the problem being that this inadvertedly neglects both sandbox players and the RPG fans. An RPG fan gets no value out of Sims going bowling or singing karaoke since these are not meaningful in making their sims function different, a sandbox player only ever gets the new buy mode objects as a potential fix for their problems, though this is rather "bare minimum" compared to what they could be getting.
To a degree yes, but to a degree no. Look at all the jobs that are available for the game, especially the base game. Players were ( and still are ) asking for everyday careers, like military. Instead, we got Space Rangers and Super Spies. In some of the later packs, we did get the return of culinary, mixologist and the like, but the careers are pretty much so ... out there and not things that the average or typical people living in a city can do. Is this an instance of getting more common content that people were asking for?
Aside from Vampires the only content RPG fans have gotten is the Scientist career, as it's distinguishable and unique enough to make Scientist Sims feel rather different from others, though this falls flat when there exists no other career that can compete with Scientist in terms of depth and unique gameplay, so an RPG fan has no motivation to use the others, and thus suddenly every Sim is a scientist (that's not diverse) or the one Scientist is clearly superior to all others in terms of depth and ability. (boring) Sandbox fans probably got their best pack in terms of Dine Out, though this too is quite limited.
My experiences differ on this one. I find all of the GTW careers a grind fest. Send scientist to work, change outfit of three co-workers, ask co-worker for a crystal, make three co-workers hungry with freeze ray. The scientist career isn't a RPG. Even in your defination of RPG, you stated:
focus on replay value and trying to keep a game fun and interesting no matter how many times you replay it, because although you'll be repeating the bulk of the content, your individual characters will find themselves taking different paths at pivotal moments that lead to far different outcomes.
The replay value is not there. Sixam is beautiful, but all the scientist career ( and any of the GTW active career) is just a grindfest of the same few options repeating over and over.
To me, in my opinion it is like this:
Some people can look at the image and see two faces looking at each other. Other people might look at it and see a vase. In the end, both people are right.
Comments
I must say that the fact that TS4 doesn't have terrain editing tools, baffles me. The main argument was that it makes gallery uploading easier and that it was a problem in TS3 that people downloaded lots from the gallery but then they were sloped and didn't work etc. BUT listen here: TS3's lots could be sloped if the surrounding area is sloped, and as a result, a flat or differently sloped lot would look out of place. Since TS4's lots (and generally the worlds) are all flat by default, thus fitting on any other lot perfectly and blending with the flat surroundings, it would still work on any other lot because the altered terrain is copied from the flat terrain to the new flat terrain. It's like putting a 3D sticker on a piece of paper, then cutting out the sticker and placing it on a new piece of paper. It's still the same because the original ground area is still flat.
And, of course, it would be pretty clear if a lot on the gallery has altered terrain, because you can see at what level the edges are and see if there is a hill going upwards or downwards. To make it even easier to spot, a tag could automatically attach itself to a lot if the terrain is edited, allerting people on the gallery that it is edited. There could even be an option to filter out lots with edited terrain, similar to filtering out lots with custom content or objects from certain packs.
Pirates!! http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/906481/pirate-gp-smuggling-dueling-live-on-ship-or-build-own-and-more#latest
Really? Forced seems a bit of a strong word! I have very few sims who complete their LTW usually because I have a story in mind for them that may not involve topping a certain career. I've ignored certain strong wishes before and while my sims aren't the happiest sims in the world they by all means are not having Aspiration failure every day. I don't cheat.
I didn't need to, of the 4 wants one of them may be woohoo with 3 people but If I didn't want my sims to do that I ignored it and fulfilled the other wants. The game didn't punish me for it. I can still play my game the way I want too.
It's interesting you find the sims 4 the best for challenges, I prefer the sims 2. Challenges in the sims 4 are too easy for me and I've found my sims don't really care about poor surroundings. I like a challenge so I always use 2.
People like different things
Games don't have to appeal to everyone and they really can't. I don't like 3 but do I hold it against the game, no. I'm a human with personal tastes and 3 simply never aligned with them. Sure some games can be bad but with the history of Sims I'd hate to say it but they're all pretty average and I believe the popularity came from the concept and not quality. Each game had glaring drawbacks some worse than others but either way they tend to level out. Sims 4 has tiny hoods but 3 had had empty neighbourhoods, Sims 2 got very restrictive but Sims 3 had too many rabbit holes. Sure you can downplay the issue or claim you don't have it but you can do that with all of them. Sims is what it is and will likely never have an iteration loved by everyone but as long as you have one you love that can sometimes be all you need.
Well, yeah.
After about a Sim week, if I don't complete at least 3 goals a week, I get an Aspiration failure every 3 Sim days. Which is annoying.
I love The Sims 2, but I literally had a mod back in the day that makes everyone Gold 24/7.
I shouldn't be forced to complete goals just to play the game. For careers? Sure. But just to play? No.
Forced is that I have to factor in goal based gameplay in The Sims 2, there's no "off" feature.
The Sims 2 is only really good for Rags to Riches. I've tried a Legacy Challenge in 2, and 100 Baby Challenge etc. and find because the game doesn't populate townies like 4 does, or no one ages, it's super hard to play.
Plus, having to focus on Needs and Aspirations in 2, often means you spend 70% of your day filling needs and completing goals. Leaving 30% to do what you need.
100 Baby Challenge was so annoying in 2, because I would move Sims out and they wouldn't age, so I'd be on my second Sim who was an adult, the mother has died, and yet my first Son was still an adult. It was just so weird.
They really should have thought The Sims 2 through a bit more. I *know* it was in 2004, but surely a game based on families etc. this should have been something they ran into. I mean, The Sims on Wii even has Sims aging separately, and it's a simple engine.
Insta: https://instagram.com/jkarajs?igshid=oef2ymrand3g
They actually had terrain editing in the BETA, so it was more likely done for routing too.
Also, without sloped lots, there's not much need for terrain editing anyway. Which is why they probably aren't going to spend funds reintroducing a system again, that they already spent money on, and scrapped.
Insta: https://instagram.com/jkarajs?igshid=oef2ymrand3g
Well I disagree that you *have to* complete goals, I don't and my sims don't have Aspiration failure daily. The player has freedom to do what they want to do. I have a sim who's LTW is to have 50 first dates, however she met Someone and after two dates she started rolling wants to marry this guy repeatedly so I let her. I find that out of all the games the sims 2 lets my creative side flow the easiest as I can do what I want to do, my sims react accordingly which is good but I never feel I have to do what the game tells me too.
I play a Legacy, I'm on generation 4. So far I've yet to encounter any population issues?
I kind of see what you mean about aging and I do agree with what you are saying at times. For challenges yeah if you aren't playing on playing the spare sims I do see how it's annoying they don't age, but I could age my sims npc friends on my sims birthday so that isn't a problem.
But I like the fact when I rotate in the sims 2, my family will be exactly how I left them. It sometimes annoys me in later games when I rotate and their lives have changed totally. In my sims 4 game my lazy loner has level 5 body skill and two love interests, I didn't want either! That bothers me more than anything. I don't want my sims going off and making changes like that without my input. Particularly when it doesn't make sense.
But then I get attached to my sims and i am control freak over my sims lives that's probably why I like the sims 2 the best for rotational play:-)
As just a player of sims games to relieve my stress, the sims 4 seems to fill that ,bill better than the others. However I do find myself doing more CAS than in the other games, using more custom content, and remaking all the homes and venues and not doing much game playing. I often wondered why that was. Through this post I am seeing that it is because there are aspects of the game missing for my play style, which I never knew I had.
I will play a new pack, like the bowling pack for awhile, I try all the new aspects, then go back looking up CC making sims, and furnishing and making houses and improved, for me as I am not really good at it, venues.
I lose interest in playing the actual game, if there is nothing new.
One thing that I do not miss is the game plays for me without lag and shutters and does not go to the desktop. See, I play to relieve stress not to have the game give me stress. Sims 3 gave me stress as it would not play well on a good computer. So I really can't compare those.
In the sims 2 I did not cheat, I cheated heavily in the sims 3 and cheat some in 4. I wish I did not have to cheat to make the game better but that seems to be what is happening.
The only facts I have to back any of my statements is what I find are my habits in the game.
Thanks for the back and forth on the posts, I now u understand some of the reasons why I play the way I do.
Sims with incompatible traits don't have as much built in drama like they did in TS2 and TS3.
And there isn't much cause and effect with socialization between sims. Nothing interesting happens unless you make it happen. There isn't much emergent game play. And since emotions are the main game play mechanic and all sims go through the same emotions with minor trait tweaks, they don't feel as individualistic as they do in other sims games.
I do like making the drama happen on my own as sometimes the drama in sims 2 and 3 did not make much sense.
I'd also consider myself a quest kind of girl in that I love the daily tasks and the feeling of achievement in mastering all the aspirations, skills, careers, unlocking the career rewards, etc. Not exactly sure which category that would fall under.
The lack of sandbox isn't an issue for me as I do prefer having a goal to work toward, a checklist of sorts. I'm also not particularly fond of building and the game provides me with enough choices to satisfactorily design and decorate my sims' homes.
I'm not sure how RPG fits into my style of playing. Maybe not so much as I have yet to complete the Scientist career or play as a vampire. I do plan on it but for right now its not a priority.
Just wanted to add another tidbit about the role of sandbox in my game as far as customizing your world. This is a feature I still love in Sims 3. Right now I'm trying to finish up reinstalling all my packs and store stuff and can't wait until I can start putting my little world together. And that's why it's not at all a concern for me in Sims 4. In my Sims 3 game I probably spend more time getting a world set up to play than actually playing. I'm always looking for that perfect world. And I like that. In Sims 4 I'm focusing more on actual gameplay because those options just aren't available.
"If you build it, they will come." - Movie: Field of Dreams
Agreed. You'd think since Sims 4 puts so much emphasis on relationships, communication and socializing there'd be more emphasis on traits, incompatibility and family relationships. I don't know if they plan on dropping a generations like game pack but the family dynamic frustrates me the most. I feel like in Sims 2 (and at certain times) in Sims 3 you had a stronger sense of family whereas with Sims 4, they're just all living under one roof and happen to share a last name or a few features. And the same goes with friendships as well. It's not hard to make someone who hated you, love you. I've gone the "mischief" route several times and when I got bored, made my sim's former enemies their friends within the hour.
We can't stop bringing up Sims 2/3 because they won't stop repackaging those games and reselling them to us.
That's not a fact, because it's not true. Bottom line 'The Sims' is about simulating virtual people, playing 'God' in a sense where you can choose to direct them or not as they fulfill day to day activities until they die. That is true for all four Sims games.
The differences come from the individual makeup of content, features, and tools that are provided along with the game.
Art style, aesthetic are totally irrelevant. Someone's perception on the art style is wholly subjective, same for the aesthetics, neither works toward making a game different. That's a superficial idea of difference. Difference comes in the form of how Game 1 plays vs Game 2. Removing all of the sideline content, and focusing on the bottom line purpose for the game, do they really appear all that different? The only big difference is the addition of aging and different age groups, which has been a standard component since The Sims 2. Aside from the general goal being the exact same for every age group, the difference there is minimal. Does painting my house yellow instead of green make it completely different? Does putting up a garden out front change really anything about my house? Short answer is no.
Audience is another irrelevant factor. Do you think players of The Sims 2 were a completely different audience than The Sims? How about for The Sims 3? How many people do we have currently on this forum that have experience playing the previous games? Maxis cannot control who their audience is, they can, however, selectively target specific demographics but that doesn't do a company any good if they ignore their established following, which clearly isn't the issue.
I'm not trying to get into a who's better discussion, but you can't say 'The Sims 4' is a completely different game when the general goal is the same as the other three games. I would never, ever be so quick to label my product 'completely different' - in TS4's case that was damage control. What better way to discourage your pool of existing customers who are looking at the new game based on their experience with the old. Notice how they didn't say new and improved, they said different. They're taking a different approach with this game, not a better approach, or any adjective that could describe the shift as one that was made for the greater good of the game, but a different one. To me that sounds rather uncertain, but that's just me.
So true.
If we can't play God any longer, this isn't a sandbox any longer. And then a big part of the interest is gone.
My Sims 3 blog, Back to the Sims 3
"A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
Wanna clarify there's no "smart" here, those definitions are more or less ones provided. What I mean is, it's rather unimportant how much my given definitions match the standardized definition of those genres, but rather the purpose of those definitions is merely to be understood and help get my point across. I just wanted to divide the playerbase into three seperate types of fans I feel I've seen browsing the forums, as two definitely feel on the light side.
Realize RPGs especially are a rather broad genre with a broad definition. A western RPG such as Fallout New Vegas for example heavily stresses choice and consequence, seeking to have the journey unfold different depending on the choices of the player. A JRPG by contrast is often heavily devoid of choices, instead with the only common link being a sense of character progression as new skills are obtained over time and as characters level up. If we were to discuss that definition, it wouldn't be the first time it's debated, even amongst die-hard fans of the genre.
The exact definition isn't so important here anyways. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." What is important is the proposed characteristics of the RPG fans in the context of the Sims. For example, you say you'd replace RPG elements with time management elements being the third most important factor. The problem with this is I fail to see how Sims 4 fails at functioning as a time management game. I'd argue Sims 1, 2, 3 and 4 are pretty much dead even in that regard, with difficulty being the only differing factor, placing Sims 3 as the weakest in that group. I have sincere doubts a major complaint with Sims 4 is time management. Meanwhile, speaking personally I can tell you I do have a problem with the lack of Sims diversity, aka a lack of RPG elements. We need more meaningful career rewards, we need more life states, and we need more meaningful personality traits and skill rewards. Those are my exact qualms with the series, because as it stands I cannot name a skill that makes my Sims function differently in a super meaningful way, scientist is the only career that stands out as highly unique in terms of what it lets sims do, and we have a grand total of two life states, one of which doesn't do much at all. (though the other is amazing)
I mean I could be wrong about RPG fans being a notable portion of the fans, that's part of why the discussion is here. However, put plainly, I have not seen any complaints related to time management, while I have seen complaints that all Sims feel the same or that the current personality traits are rather weak. Vampires, an RPG-style GP, proved rather popular too, so I've got several reasons to view RPG elements as one of the key parts of the Sims as a franchise, so it'd make sense to see so many disappointed customers if it (and sandbox tools) are neglected.
Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
To a degree yes, but to a degree no. Look at all the jobs that are available for the game, especially the base game. Players were ( and still are ) asking for everyday careers, like military. Instead, we got Space Rangers and Super Spies. In some of the later packs, we did get the return of culinary, mixologist and the like, but the careers are pretty much so ... out there and not things that the average or typical people living in a city can do. Is this an instance of getting more common content that people were asking for?
My experiences differ on this one. I find all of the GTW careers a grind fest. Send scientist to work, change outfit of three co-workers, ask co-worker for a crystal, make three co-workers hungry with freeze ray. The scientist career isn't a RPG. Even in your defination of RPG, you stated:
The replay value is not there. Sixam is beautiful, but all the scientist career ( and any of the GTW active career) is just a grindfest of the same few options repeating over and over.
To me, in my opinion it is like this:
Some people can look at the image and see two faces looking at each other. Other people might look at it and see a vase. In the end, both people are right.