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Analysis on Sims as a genre; why Sims 4 disappoints some and not others

This is a theory I've wanted to type for a bit. Alluded to it in the past a bit, but finally felt like typing it up. Look around the forums and you'll find many disappointed or disgruntled fans while some others will say they've loved this game from the start and swear it's the best in the series. Question would be why is there such a clear gap between fans on this matter, and I believe to understand this, we need to understand the type of game the Sims has always been. While people may have different outlooks on things, the below is my theory on what has always made a Sims game.

The title of the game might make most assume Sims is a simulation game of course, but I think that's simplifying things too much....and perhaps it's this exact oversimplification that has led to the problems of Sims 4. I believe the Sims as a game is 33% simulator, 33% sandbox game and 33% RPG.

What is a simulator? A simulator is a game where people simply enjoy being in the shoes of a certain role and having it's real life counterpart simulated as realistically as possible. The earliest, most successful simulator I can think of is Flight Simulator, as it offers people a chance to fly and feel like a pilot, whereas this is costly difficult and perhaps an unrealistic pursuit in real life. The simulation genre has grown over the years and is especially popular with Germany. Dozens of simulators are out there: Farm simulator, train simulator, bus simulator, Truck simulator, Euro Truck simulator with roads specific to Europe...you name it it's out there.

While this game may be called "The Sims," I would not define it as a pure simulator. Why? Well let's look at it's roots. Before Sims became a big deal, it was SimCity that was the main seller of Maxis. SimCity let you play Mayor, but the game itself was not without humor or unrealistic and comical scenarios. Some transit chairman that got super mad if you dropped his budget even by 1%, alien overlord attacks on your town, regular newspaper headlines that were absurd...SimCity did not exactly set out to be the PERFECT city simulator and was happy to mix some comical or game-like aspects in with an otherwise fairly decent city simulator. This same habit continued with some of their other titles, such as Sim Copter, Sim Ant and of course, The Sims. The very first Sims expansion was largely focused on highly unrealistic game elements, such as wish-granting genies, zombification, servo robots and more. The Sims has never pursued the title of pure simulator and has always incorporated an absurd humor to it. As such, although I would say the Sims community appreciates simulation, I don't think it's consumers would be as wild about Flight Simulator or Train Simulator as they are about the Sims. Traditional simulations show clear passions towards niche hobbies and interests, whereas the Sims has a soap opera or social aspect to it that differentiates it from the others.

What is a sandbox game? A sandbox game seeks to drop you into a world, give you a couple tools and just let you run wild. The most successful sandbox game is Minecraft, and sure enough it's initial appeal (it's gained all kinds of stuff over time) was to let the player build whatever they want in a vast world where resources are found and gained via mining and exploration. For a sandbox game, the appeal is largely around the exploration itself or the ability to make your own game and create your own designs. A sandbox game doesn't seek to give you strict rules or regulations, but rather it seeks to provide you with basic tools and then let you run wild and do whatever you want with them.

Sims has always had elements of sandbox games in the form of build mode, that much is clear. However, it would be an absurd overstatement to claim this is all Sims has ever been about. Building is just one aspect of the game, and obviously the main game has always been Live mode. Interestingly, Will Wright initially planned Sims as a sort of architect simulation to let people try and find efficient and visually appealing building plans, but the plans changed once the team began to see the appeal of controlling the Sims themselves. Still, it's clear that sandbox elements at least hold a very important cornerstone in the Sims franchise.

What is an RPG? An RPG stands for "role-playing game," and typically these games strive for highlighting differences between individual characters to make your character feel special and unique and make the entire experience feel one-of-a-kind based on your choices. Make a warrior and you'll find you have no problem doing quests X and Y while struggling with Z, but once you replay and make a Mage, suddenly Z is simple but X proves rather difficult. Role-playing games focus on replay value and trying to keep a game fun and interesting no matter how many times you replay it, because although you'll be repeating the bulk of the content, your individual characters will find themselves taking different paths at pivotal moments that lead to far different outcomes. An example includes how in Fallout New Vegas, your political philosophy determines the outcomes of a quest and how it affects a community's happiness.

RPGs are perhaps the most distant from the Sims as a genre, but important to the Sims nonetheless and just as important as the other two despite such stark differences to the Sims as a final product. In the Sims, RPG elements largely express themselves in the form personalities, careers and life states. A slob Vampire Sim that's outgoing and flirty and works as a Scientist is expected to function quite differently from a neat Simbot Sim working in Law Enforcement that's got No Sense of Humor and Loves the Outdoors. The RPG elements are the different ways that personalities, careers, life states and other such factors can make each Sim feel unique and encourage replay value regardless of how many Sims you've already made. Speaking personally real quick, I often enjoyed ONLY doing things that Sims directly wished for in Sims 2 and Sims 3, as their various personalities often tended to generate various different wishes, and it was fun to see where those wishes took them and which sims wound up the most successful or immortal or whatever. Having said that, again RPGs are quite different from the Sims, and in the same way that I suspect most Sims fans may not get the same enjoyment from Flight Simulator or Minecraft, RPGs typically have a higher sense of "stress" to them, with the character typically embarking on a quest where death of friends and comrades is possible and the journey has a clear beginning and end. I believe most Sims fans want something a little more stress-free than such a game, and would not appreciate if the Sims had a clear ending.

So what's up with Sims 4? It's focused far too much on Simulation and far too little on Sandbox and RPG elements.

Look at the type of content the Sims 4 has produced and you'll notice a clear pattern: much of the content relates to things that you and I might be expected to do in real life. We could visit the Spa, we could go bowling, we could go clubbing and dancing, we might enjoy the typical aspects of living in a city, we might enjoy karaoke, etc etc. It feels like very frequently, the Sims team sits down and asks themselves "what are some things that people like to do in real life," the problem being that this inadvertedly neglects both sandbox players and the RPG fans. An RPG fan gets no value out of Sims going bowling or singing karaoke since these are not meaningful in making their sims function different, a sandbox player only ever gets the new buy mode objects as a potential fix for their problems, though this is rather "bare minimum" compared to what they could be getting.

In Sims 2, the very first expansion seemed to focus heavily on RPG aspects for example while also incorporating Simulation. You went to University and this was both very life-like and likewise had a chance to change how your Sim functioned in meaningful ways. Successful sims had plenty of time to better their skills, and they could get access to nice perks such as unique careers, better pay and additional wish slots and wish locks. All this meant a sim that attended university had more careers they could apply for and they were also more likely to be happy and successful. Future expansions would cater to Sandbox players by allowing you the ability to add additional neighborhoods and endlessly expand your real estate, while likewise allowing you to run businesses. RPG players got a life state every expansion and each functioned rather uniquely from one another, and even hybrid lifestates that combined aspects of seperate life states were doable, meaning breeding various different sims together was appealing in order to produce more capable or more interesting sims. Even small things like turn-ons and reputation helped RPG players distinguish Sims from one another. Simulation sims were not left behind though, as basic features such as hobbies, university, apartment living, running a business and going on vacation all related to the kinds of stuff one might do in real life.

In Sims 3, the very first expansion seemed to throw Simulation out the window and instead focused mostly on Sandbox players and RPG players. Sandbox players got a huge variety of building styles to mess with, as well as three vacation worlds to edit if they cared to. RPG players got some meaningful skills and dungeon/"quest" differences to make sims feel unique from each other, even if the only difference was oftentimes more to do with what random "quest" you were assigned rather than anything related to personality. Skills were incorporated though. Later expansions followed suit with the one lifestate per expansion rule established in Sims 2, so RPG players always always always got something in every pack, as well as some personality traits that were quite distinct and meaningful. Diva for example meant a Sim had quite a difficult time of simply making friends since they were prone to obnoxious and arrogant interactions if left unattended. Sandbox players got small but meaningful additions such as the ability to buy out businesses or build resorts, as well as just providing the player with massive amounts of sheer content so that loads of style options were on hand. One neighborhood, Isla Paradiso, even heavily stressed the exploration aspect and tied it in with building. Really, the Sims 3 as a base game did a lot for sandbox players, as Create-a-Style and some increased build mode options meant house customization was at an all time high. The loss of customization of the town vs. Sims 2 should be noted, but at least Sims 3 provided CAW to counteract this for some players with the passion and dedication to use it. And once again, Simulation was present. Packs like Ambitions included realistic jobs like stylist or Firefighter (alongside some less realistic ones), Generations was almost fully focused on Simulation, and traditional staples such as Pets, Seasons and University were still provided.

Sims 4...? It's not that Sims 4 has never catered to the other two, but the ratio and content count is rather small. Vampires as a pack is practically a love letter to RPG fans....but that's it really. Aside from Vampires the only content RPG fans have gotten is the Scientist career, as it's distinguishable and unique enough to make Scientist Sims feel rather different from others, though this falls flat when there exists no other career that can compete with Scientist in terms of depth and unique gameplay, so an RPG fan has no motivation to use the others, and thus suddenly every Sim is a scientist (that's not diverse) or the one Scientist is clearly superior to all others in terms of depth and ability. (boring) Sandbox fans probably got their best pack in terms of Dine Out, though this too is quite limited. Retail from GTW may also qualify, but again it's quite limited and can't compare to that of Sims 2. Strangely I get the sense clubs might actually be one of the best aspects for this fans, since while their ability to build the town is very limited, clubs do allow some degree of community customization, though obviously this is a very different and perhaps disappointing direction for them. Hardcore Sandboxers and builders will attest to the fact that while Sims 4's build mode is more user-friendly, it's also inferior to Sims 3. Gone are the days of sunken living rooms or sheds that didn't awkwardly have a foundation equal to your home, and Create-a-Style is dead in the ground. EA is completely silent on the topic of a create-a-world tool, meaning this concept is dead too. In terms of creating, about all that's been gained for Sandbox gamers is that some aspects of Create-a-Sim are more detailed while Clubs allows for a new type of community customization, but in terms of anything involving tangible buildings or worlds, it's all been downgraded. Even the little exploration that the worlds had seems to have been abandoned, because as one SimGuru put it, their telemetry has shown not enough people have found hidden lots and that's enough reason to abandon the concept entirely.

Simulation though...? Bowling, visiting the spa, clubbing, city life, etc etc. I'd also argue that Stuff packs are best suited to Simulation players, as they're too small to include RPG elements or new tools for Sandbox players. All they can provide is niche interest areas to appease certain kinds of fans that desire to simulate a specific activity. Simulation is the one portion of the game the Sims 4 hasn't neglected. While that's great for simulation fans, it's also rather aggrivating for the rest of us. After all, past examples such as Sims 2's university or Open For Business have shown it's perfectly possible to incorporate the other two naturally side-by-side with simulation. There's nothing mutually exclusive about these; very few outright neglect others. (examples, Supernatural favors RPG fans, Generations is Simulation, and Sims 2 Nightlife was largely for sandbox) Despite this, those two are neglected and told to take a back seat to simulation, even though up until now they've gotten as much value and attention as Simulation. Suddenly two siblings are hearing as clearly as possible that simulation is the new favorite child, and understandably, this troubles them. This is great for simulation fans, but truly aggrivating for the rest of us, who are by no means a small or insignificant portion of the fanbase.

Sadly, this problem shows signs it will continue. I feel like simulation has perhaps always been the most consistent type of gameplay. What I mean by this is...the focus of running a business is largely a sandbox-y type of gameplay element, but running your own business is naturally a simulation type of gameplay in itself. Of the three, simulation is the one that comes most naturally. They kind of have to go out of their way to create a pack that doesn't really simulate real life, such as Into the Future or World Adventures. Packs that neglect simulation exist, but they're in a very clear minority. As such, I sometimes worry fans will continue to request simulation features, not realizing that simulation alone will not add more gameplay. The request for Pets and Seasons are a great example of this, as I consider both of those to largely be simulation-orientated packs. Seasons is 100% simulation with nothing for the other two camps, whereas Pets has the potential to incorporate some RPG elements, but history of the series shows it tends to be on the lighter side in this regard. Even the recent vote on what to choose as a stuff pack, I feel people tend to "default" to a simulation-based theme just because it's straightforward and reliable while the other two require a bit more thought and effort, and have more potential for failed concepts, though that does not make them worse. An expansion pack idea I recall seeing on a survey was letting a Sim vividly play as Mayor of a city and determine it's layout and policies; something I imagine Sandbox players would've loved. With the release of San Myshuno however, I get the vibe that idea simply didn't gain enough traction and has sadly been abandoned.

What can be done to remedy the problem?

Well for one, realize that the three are not mutually exclusive and seek to combine their features. It's my hope, for example, that the upcoming Family GP will find a way to insert some RPG elements into a traditionally Simulation-themed pack. The boarding schools in Sims 3 all had unique benefits that helped shaped how your child grew up, and I'd like to see such elements improve or expanded on. Anything that can help sims feel unique (in MEANINGFUL ways; many of the current toddler and child bonuses are too simple or insignificant) based on how they were raised. The key lesson is simply that there's nothing stopping them from including Sandbox or RPG elements alongside ANY simulation features, they just largely haven't done so up until now. If the Sims team wanted to continue their practice of incorporating new packs that simulate real life, that can work, BUT please ask how you can incorporate RPG elements or Sandbox elements alongside any simulation ideas. If you make Spa day, focus on ways the Wellness skill can feel exceptionally unique. If you make City Living, brainstorm ways to provide Sandbox players with new tools and build options.

I would also argue that SPs are best suited for simulation, GPs are best suited for RPG elements and EPs are best suited for Sandbox elements.

As I said, Simulation is the easiest to incorporate. It can be packaged with practically every theme, except for the rogue supernatural or fantasy one. (which again, are a clear minority) Each Stuff Pack can easily cater itself towards individual hobbies and activities that consumers enjoy and want to simulate within their world. Arcades for example offer no RPG aspects and limited (barebones) Sandbox elements, but would be a nice fit since most of us have arcades in our town that people enjoy frequenting. Or if the upcoming Fitness pack were to include new fitness items such as barbells, bike exercise machines or chin-up bars, then this helps to improve the illusion of a Gym. This does not mean simulation cannot be included in GPs or EPs; as I said it's rather easy to incorporate naturally, I just mean that SPs in particular are a type of pack that it feels like ONLY simulation players can get meaningful benefit from. You can easily appease them here, perhaps provide a bit for Sandbox players, but there's no way in heck an SP is gonna offer much for RPG fans.

Game Packs would suit RPG fans because Vampires was already a huge success for them. A game pack is large enough that it can focus on something like a life state or detailed hobby-like skills, and this gives the devs room to create things that are rather unique and interesting to differentiate Sims from each other. I think it would be rather easy to gear a good chunk of GPs towards RPG aspects, and the team has already proven themselves capable. This does not neccesarily mean supernatural life states only, as hobbies for example can make sims feel unique via fleshed out skills that one Sim excels in and another sim doesn't. Hobbies would incorporate both simulation and RPG aspects, so again, these don't need to be mutually exclusive, I'm just naming which packs seem naturally suited for pursuing which elements as their top priority. RPG fans for example can also benefit from new careers, and careers are something we've only gotten from careers up until now, so it's not completely exclusive.

Finally, EPs seem like the only packs big enough to do something meaningful for Sandbox players, so it's probably most important the EP team is actively concious of this. The other two can mix without much hassle, but what the Sandbox players ask for would be VERY difficult to deliver via SPs or GPs. The best way to appease Sandbox players is to simply provide them with more tools rather than more tangible features. Dine Out did a so-so job with this because a restaurant let's a player customize the menu, the work uniform and the build of the restaurant, but more detailed tools would be nice and appreciated and there's only so much you can do to customize a restaurant before you move on. Things like the ability to create a swimmable pond or (and I know this specific example was skipped; still a good example) functional apartments with multiple simultaneously active apartments per lot seem like nice new tools for this players. Spiral staircases, 80x80 lots, 64x64 lots, a new world to build in, an attic tool, a shed or garage tool (aka a room that is unaffected by foundation height), a tool for sunken living rooms, the ability to purchase vacant lots or additional homes and expanded ability to create businesses. Heck, what about if we got one neighborhood in particular where all of it was "playable" and players could freely place lots within specific confined areas, thus allowing them to either fill a neighborhood either with 2-3 massive mansions, a handful of medium sized businesses or a great number of tiny affordable homes? I realize some of these are perhaps difficult, but I don't feel like simply neglecting the Sandbox players entirely is an option. That's why I feel these are the kinds of things that I feel like only an EP could do. I feel like the Sandbox players are probably the hardest to appease too, since Sims 4 easily has a much more limited and constrained world than 2 or 3, but I do not feel like abandoning these guys is a wise idea. There's plenty of ways to provide these players with new tools beyond "here's 80 new buy mode objects," an effort just needs to be made to hear these guys out and provide. I'm not the best player to ask in terms of what exactly is the best kind of feature to include to appease to these guys while also being realistic and within budget, but that's why discussion is important.


Overall, the lesson is to just remember that Sims is not a pure simulation game. I know I didn't get here because I like building humble families and dreaming up simulated stories in my head. My stories are bare minimum; my interest is in seeing which Sims wind up successful and in what ways, and which ones wind up not so successful. I prefer the game tell a story for me to some degree (don't panic; what I'm suggesting would not limit anyone's ability to tell a story, it would just provide tools to let the game tell a story if you so choose to allow it), and for that reason I consider my interest in Sims to largely be for it's RPG elements. I've recently seen a LOT of complaints about the limited real estate and limited customization of Sims 4, and it's clear to me what that is: that's the sandbox players bleeding and bleeding hard because they're just not all that included here. I mean City Living is a prime example: it had ZERO empty lots for builders and the vast majority of the world cannot be changed in any large or meaningful way, since deleting apartments means deleting your only shot at them.

It's clear not everyone here is just a simulation player, but Sims 4 also hasn't done a spectacular job of recognizing this. It's not too late though, and this can easily be turned around with the right mindset behind the development of future packs. As I said, I'm not neccesarily asking that all GPs be RPG elements only or all EPs be solely focused on Sandbox elements, but I do think it would perhaps be to the benefit of Sims 4 if certain gurus were assigned the task of constantly asking "is there any way to tie RPG elements/Sandbox elements in with this theme?"

Thoughts?

"Who are you, that do not know your history?"

Comments

  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.
    Different art styles, different aesthetics, different audiences.

    The Sims 1 was very "time management" based, with the addictiveness of "Tycoon" games, but allowing more freedom.

    The Sims 2 was very family based, and minus OFB, could easily be more of a "Family Simulator" than a "Life Simulator". The Sims 2 doesn't really cater to players who don't play with families, down the fact you have to cheat to turn aging off. And most of the gameplay is between life stages, not with Adults alone. I get so bored unless I have a family in The Sims 2.

    The Sims 3 was very RPG based, mixed with The Sims 2. The first two Expansions were RPG games in a nutshell. Quest based, that was more obvious with WA, but worked around everyday life with Ambitions. Opportunities was probably the biggest focus of The Sims 3, until Late Night, when EA realised people didn't want an RPG Sims game.

    The Sims 4 has mixes of all 3 ideas, but weren't fleshed out in the base game. I do like The Sims 4 for what it is, though. And I feel the game suits a variety of play styles. It just seems with they are trying to make 4 the "ultimate" of the original 3, and it comes short trying to be any of them, but it's still a very good game in it's own right. It just needs it's packs to keep focus. City Living, for example, tries to do too much, and everything takes a backseat. The same happened with Get To Work & the base game.

    I love that 4 tries different styles, but please keep them pack to pack, and don't try and make each pack cover those basis.
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    Spiral staircases, 80x80 lots, 64x64 lots, a new world to build in, an attic tool, a shed or garage tool (aka a room that is unaffected by foundation height), a tool for sunken living rooms, the ability to purchase vacant lots or additional homes and expanded ability to create businesses.
    [/b]


    We need all of these, but The Sims 2: Pets on console had a 90x90 lot, and that was back in 2006, on console and PSP.
    Why we can't have one-lot hood with a 90x90 lot is beyond me.

    I can understand why they wouldn't have one within a busy world, but surely Park lot (that can be turned Residential if we wanted) could be 90x90 and just trim the public space down to nothing. Easy, surely. We need at least one area per world, that is huge and we can do whatever we want with, and Public Space is too a minimum so that we have full reign over design.

    The best thing about the Park lots in WC and OS, is that there is nothing that your lot clashes with so it can be anything you like.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    edited April 2017
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
    People will complain no matter what. Ever since TS2, upon release people were bellyaching about how the previous game(s) are better.

    There is also always an issue of people comparing a base game vs the previous game with all expansions / CC / nostalgia lenses.
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  • foussifoussi Posts: 642 Member
    I think people are dissapointed because some Features are limited like the build mode.
    Also because of the lack of open world even though open world has increased chance of bugs.
    Lets not forget that the fans asked and never got an answer.

    Well people can never be satisfied, its our nature.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    People will complain no matter what. Ever since TS2, upon release people were bellyaching about how the previous game(s) are better.

    There is also always an issue of people comparing a base game vs the previous game with all expansions / CC / nostalgia lenses.

    That's not really a productive or helpful statement though. Such a statement does little to try and highlight why exactly people might be complaining. It's possible for people to complain "just because," but I certainly don't think that's the case here.

    On the RPG side, traits have less meaning than they once had. Basic, minor example is that the Genius trait gave a boost to how quickly you learned logic, and even the personalities in 1 and 2 had behind-the-scenes benefits based on certain threshholds. (example, an unactive sim might build energy slower while a serious and unplayful sim might get better fun from a book and reduced fun from TV) In Sims 4, much of once made personalities unique is now redirected to moods. Focused produces a 20% boost to how quickly you learn logic, the problem being that after a certain point, Chess automatically rewards a focused buff, meaning both a Genius sim and a Lazy, Gluttonous Slob will perform equally and gain Logic at the exact same rate. The focused buff from Genius is rather meaningless and short-term as a result.

    On the Sandbox side, as stated, there are clear losses compared to past titles. We can no longer design our own world or neighborhood. We can no longer customize houses as much as we once could (example, foundations), we no longer have free reign over real estate or specific styles.

    When we're discussing such specific examples, the lost features are quite clear. If you wish to argue Sims 4 makes up for this in other areas, that's something else entirely. That's fully possible, but when we understand that certain individuals like certain features, then little things like additional animations or social interactions will do nothing to improve on RPG elements or sandbox gameplay, so even the best animations in the world would not appease those crowds.

    There's a very good case to be made for such issues, and I don't think neglecting that or discouraging discussion is the path towards improving the game for it's typical fans. (all of them, not some)
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
    edited April 2017
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are. We simply do not know what is still being planned for TS4.
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  • julienrob2004julienrob2004 Posts: 4,166 Member
    edited April 2017
    For me my complaint is how shallow the whole sims 4 experience is . The humour has virtually disappeared to be replaced by idiocy like the talking toilet or dying from being too happy . As if they think right what is the stupidest idea that we can think of to annoy the players after they have seen it over and over . Nothing seems to go into any depth any more it all revolves around moods that change faster than anything . Happy one moment then in the depths of depression for hardly any reason .
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    edited April 2017
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are.

    But we are comparing base game concepts. Genius is a trait present in both games, and it's clear that in terms of functionality, it harbors far less personality or meaningful uniqueness for Sims 4 Sims; a genius is no more unique than ANY sim in the Focused mood, which is exceedingly easy to obtain. Could this change via a patch? Perhaps, but that does not mean it's "unfair" to discuss it now. If anything, highlighting it's flaws vs. a past rendition are the best way to ensure such a thing actually happens.

    Foundations are another. Sims 3 and Sims 2 both offer the potential for foundations to be built per room and per unit. This means I can have a main home with a sizeable foundation, a sunken living room you access by going down some stairs, a garage with no foundation, and then a shed in the backyard that again lacks a foundation. None of this is doable in Sims 4 because all four must share the exact same height. To have a garage or shed means you're either surrendering the foundation of your home or rather awkwardly accepting that the two others must have a foundation you don't want them to have. Sunken living rooms are downright impossible. Terrain editing tools are likewise completely absent, despite this being a feature that's existed since Sims 1 in every base game.

    Really, that right there highlights just how trivial your entire argument is: you're more or less indirectly stating it's no use to judge or be critical of Sims 4 and compare it to past iterations until it's complete. This is absurd, both because individual cases do not require additional content before flaws compared to past titles can be highlighted (see above), and because if we waited until the end of development to criticize, then those criticisms would have ZERO potential to do anything, and would likely even be too late to assist Sims 5's base game release.

    Your entire argument is a very lazy blanket statement designed to shut down discussion entirely. It fails to objectively examine or scrutinize any individual feature for it's own merit, instead insisting the discussion isn't worth having.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.

    Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
    Was The Sims 2 bad?
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.

    Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
    Was The Sims 2 bad?

    Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.

    Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.

    Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    edited April 2017
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are.

    But we are comparing base game concepts.

    The Sims 3 base game established things better, but the gameplay was baron. Even The Sims 3 on console was delayed to add more content to it (it was supposed to come out early 2010, a year after the original Sims 3 release date, and then was pushed back to June 2010, a year after the actual release, and then to September 2010). It came with the majority of The Sims 3 store included up until Sep 2010, just to add something to it. There was little to no activities for Sims to do, other than work, or visit a Rabbit Hole. There was Guitar and an Easel. You could fish, and Garden. That was it.

    The Sims 4 base game might have less "groundwork" (aka, Life Stages) and Customization (never a big focus until Sims 3 anyway) but it had way more things for Sims to do.

    Even The Sims 3 Wii had more things to do than The Sims 3 base game for PC. Even for Kids (Sandpits, Activity table's).
    The Sims 3 for PC had almost zero gameplay items, outside the necessities.

    The Sims 2 came with lots (especially with Career unlocks) and The Sims 4 had heaps of gameplay hobby items.
    The Sims 3 had two items activities, and 2 world activities. I can't think of anything apart from Gardening, Fishing, Guitar and Painting.
  • TheDismalSimmerTheDismalSimmer Posts: 656 Member
    edited April 2017
    You have enough sense to compare base game to base game. But > 80 people out of 100 probably won't. That constitutes a signficant portion of the complaints. Unfair comparisons do not necessarily mean criticisms are invalid, but it's something to keep in mind.

    Half your original post references stuff from DLC and how certaint types of packs can complement sim, sandbox, and RPG elements. Which is why I even brought up the development cycle issue in the first place.

    The Sims 4 might simply be focusing in gameplay elements in a different order. So what was introduced in the first TS2 EP may be coming in the 5th TS4 EP, etc.
    dgvibNQ.png
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are.

    But we are comparing base game concepts.

    The Sims 3 base game established things better, but the gameplay was baron.

    Be objective.

    For sake of argument, let's say what you're claiming is factually true and isn't a matter of opinion. Even if Sims 4 were objectively the better overall package, this does not change that for example, Sims 3 objectively has the better world building, the better home customization and the better trait lineup.

    When you put everything into one basket, all you're doing is masking and protecting the specific areas where Sims 4 has flaws. That's not helping it improve, as you're also masking those flaws from discussions and from the devs themselves. If something is flawed or considered worse, it needs to be discussed. Even if Sims 4 improved on 3 in literally every category aside from those three, that does not mean "Sims 4 has worse traits, world building and home customization than 3" is a false statement.

    Aside from that, I'd remind you that empty statements such as "The Sims 4 base game might have less "groundwork" and Customization but it had way more things for Sims to do," are just that: empty statements. You have to support a claim with an argument, though even so this is distracting from my point and my focus, which is the individual issues where Sims 4 quite clearly comes up short and how to improve on those.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.

    Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
    Was The Sims 2 bad?

    Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.

    Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.

    Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.

    I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.
    I feel your statements that The Sims 4 is less Sandbox than the rest, as totally incorrect. But explaining it, and going to that effort, isn't going to say anything more than "I don't agree".

    People consider the original Sims the "ultimate Sandbox" out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options.
    I find the Aspiration system in 2, makes the game linear unless you cheat. The game is built around the Aspiration system, which is a linear concept. But people tell me to cheat it off. But then that's not the game, is it?

    Aspirations are forced on you, and you're forced to complete tasks or your Sims go insane. I'm forced to WooHoo with 3 different people, I'm forced to send my Sims to Private School with the Family Aspiration. My Sims needs drop faster in a lower Aspiration level, the game punishes me for not completing goals. That's what the Sims 2 is, a goal system based Simulation.

    But "just ignore it" people say, cheat through it. If The Sims 4 forced you to complete the Aspiration goals or your Sims needs would drop faster and they would refuse to do tasks, and have mental breakdowns, people would be livid. But it was okay in 2?

    At the end of the day, people are going to have problems with one game they ignored in the other. They're going to see the same product different.

    I've tried doing Challenges in 2/3 & 4, and 4 gives me the most freedom, and is set up better for them. That would mean it's more Sandbox, but to me and what I need. 3 has problems generating a variety of Sims without mods, and struggles with multiple generations and crashes with big houses as it pushes it over the 2GB limit. I can't use it for the challenges I want. It doesn't support what I need from a Sandbox.

    It just depends.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    edited April 2017
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.

    Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
    Was The Sims 2 bad?

    Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.

    Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.

    Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.

    I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.

    Then why are you here? You're under no obligation to do so, but if I'm telling you empty statements with zero supporting arguments such as "People consider the original Sims the ultimate Sandbox out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options" do absolutely nothing to promote discussion, then why are you here? I can't discuss such a statement because you've given me no supporting evidence to agree with or refute. You just make baseless claims; the most I can do with that is ask you to support your argument, but that A.) distracts from the arguments I've already made and wish to discuss, as outlined in the main post, and B.) I've already done this and already you've ignored that request.

    You're also completely ignoring anything I've said and you continue to bring up random claims and other topics that I never spoke a word of. There is nothing objective about anything you're saying; you seem to not like the points of discussion I've raised, so instead you insist on points of discussion where you can "win."

    If you don't want to have a discussion of the topic, fine. No one is forcing you to do so and no one is forcing you to be here. However, please do me a favor and don't randomly bring up 20 different subjects while making baseless claims and pretend to be a part of the discussion.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are.

    But we are comparing base game concepts.

    The Sims 3 base game established things better, but the gameplay was baron.

    Be objective.

    For sake of argument, let's say what you're claiming is factually true and isn't a matter of opinion. Even if Sims 4 were objectively the better overall package, this does not change that for example, Sims 3 objectively has the better world building, the better home customization and the better trait lineup.

    When you put everything into one basket, all you're doing is masking and protecting the specific areas where Sims 4 has flaws. That's not helping it improve, as you're also masking those flaws from discussions and from the devs themselves. If something is flawed or considered worse, it needs to be discussed. Even if Sims 4 improved on 3 in literally every category aside from those three, that does not mean "Sims 4 has worse traits, world building and home customization than 3" is a false statement.

    Aside from that, I'd remind you that empty statements such as "The Sims 4 base game might have less "groundwork" and Customization but it had way more things for Sims to do," are just that: empty statements. You have to support a claim with an argument, though even so this is distracting from my point and my focus, which is the individual issues where Sims 4 quite clearly comes up short and how to improve on those.

    World building is a distraction, and arrived alongside WA. If I wanted a World building Simulator, I would play SimCity. They gave us CAW because it was easy for them to do so, but it isn't "The Sims" as concept, and is something extra.

    The better Home Customisation? Maybe with Create A Style, but in terms of "Build Mode" no it didn't. I couldn't build any of these with The Sims 3:

    https://www.ea.com/news/10-awesome-fan-made-houses

    I've never had an issue with traits in The Sims 4, because I find them just as interesting as the ones in 3, aka they aren't.
    The Sims 3 traits have the same effect, and I literally forget what traits I give certain Sims in 3, unless it's gameplay based.

    The Sims 2 personality system (especially on console) is more effective.

    I'm not covering The Sims 4 flaws, I'm stating that even with those flaws, I have things to do. The Sims 3 base game was very well done, yes.
    I'd rather live in a small house filled with things to do, missing the luxuries over a massive house, well built, with nothing.

    My perception of what makes The Sims good, is going to be different to yours. 11 EPs, several stuff packs, and about a million store sets later, I find The Sims 3 to still be baron, because I can't find any point to it. All of the gameplay is shallow, and I don't get invested.

    Now, compare that to The Sims 3 Pets on console, they invested in depth, and surely enough I still play it. Depth means replayability. The Sims 3 has none for me.

    The Sims 4 base game lacked depth too, I didn't play it often. The DLC? I played Get To Work for months, even to the point where I still hadn't finished all of the careers, or unlocked the retail perks when Get Together came out. Get To Work is the definition of depth.
    I'm just glad I finished it before the Dine Out patch broke most of it. Still annoyed they continue to ignore it.
  • BlargianBlargian Posts: 197 Member
    I get that you feel strongly about this, and I totally agree with a lot of your points, but maybe no one wants to "engage" in this "conversation" because it seems like you just want people to agree with you. When people try to reply to you, albeit not as articulate, they get an essay as a response telling them that they are making "blanket statements" and aren't giving you the answers you want. Do not tell people that their opinion is not constructive or helpful.

    "There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles." I do not agree with this. You are very smart and constructive, but please don't pretend this makes you objective, as you clearly are very passionate about this topic.

    "I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore." I am a fan of all previous titles, but I adapted and accepted that Sims 4 was a new game. If I wanted to play the other games, I would. Maybe fans like you really could not adapt, and that is totally fine and disappointing. I play lots of RPG games and Sandbox games, but when push comes to shove, Simulation games are ones that I could play casually and for longer periods of time in the context of games like the Sims series.

    By the way, I really am upset that I can't make a fence if my house has a foundation. That is complete bollocks and needs to be fixed. I will give you that. You can make sunken living rooms though... Unless my idea of a sunken living room is not the same as yours?
    KYkPuFT.png?1
    Bloodlines: Gustav & Ishka's Legacy | Family Tree: Echo + Plum | ID: Jalooloo
  • Louise_G0325Louise_G0325 Posts: 1,040 Member
    edited April 2017
    Very insightful anylises :)

    I've never thought of it this way, but I realize now that this may be why TS4 feels a bit flat. People often complain that TS4 lacks depth, and it may be because TS4 focusses on simulation, as you said, instead of layering it with the other two. Many aspects thus only have one layer of a certain aspect, and since only one layer of lasagna is not very tasty, it would be better if at least sprinkled with some other elements, but amazing if another layer or two is added. The Vamp pack, as an example, was amazing because it added a unique RPG lifestate (as you said), simulation with the gameplay added and some sandbox with the great buy objects and especially the cracks and tears, that allow a builder to add all-new details on any building they want. It was hearty and catered to the tastes of simmers with liking to all three aspects.

    With that analogy behind us, your observation is extremely wise and I think the devs really need to read and consider this because it could seriously help to fill the gaps and add more layers of depth to the game.

    EDIT: One great example of a well-rounded career, was TS3 Detective, Ambitions. It had method and you needed to think, but there was also some simulation in with things like bribing a witness or sims giving and withdrawing cases, actual sims were involved with actual (and sometimes hilarious) cases, that actually affected sims' relationships. TS4's Detective career is always the same: gather clues, "analyse" on the computer and choose a guilty sim according to features. It isn't exciting at all and takes away the immersiveness of TS3's version. Sims get released after a few days anyway, not affecting the world or sims around them in any way. I think Get to Work needs a seriously big patch to address the retail system and the Detective career. The Doctor career is fine to me, but I would like if the career affects the world outside a bit more with epidemics terrorizing a neighbourhood, sicknesses being able to result in death if untreated etc. It feels as if nothing that happens in TS4, really affects the rest of the world. Politicians from City Living, as you said, should affect San Myshueno's residents. An update where a president can set certain rules like curfews etc, would improve the career exponentionally.
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.

    Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
    Was The Sims 2 bad?

    Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.

    Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.

    Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.

    I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.

    Then why are you here? You're under no obligation to do so, but if I'm telling you empty statements with zero supporting arguments such as "People consider the original Sims the ultimate Sandbox out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options" do absolutely nothing to promote discussion, then why are you here? I can't discuss such a statement because you've given me no supporting evidence to agree with or refute. You just make baseless claims; the most I can do with that is ask you to support your argument, but that A.) distracts from the arguments I've already made and wish to discuss, as outlined in the main post, and B.) I've already done this and already you've ignored that request.

    You're also completely ignoring anything I've said and you continue to bring up random claims and other topics that I never spoke a word of. There is nothing objective about anything you're saying; you seem to not like the points of discussion I've raised, so instead you insist on points of discussion where you can "win."

    If you don't want to have a discussion of the topic, fine. No one is forcing you to do so and no one is forcing you to be here. However, please do me a favor and don't randomly bring up 20 different subjects while making baseless claims and pretend to be a part of the discussion.

    But you're not having a discussion either. The "evidence" you say you're providing, is just your perception of the game. And you don't see my perception as evidence, like you do yours.

    You say you don't like certain aspects, I'm telling you why I like them.
    That is answering the thread, which is "Why The Sims 4 disappoints some and not others". I am of those players who does enjoy, and I'm telling you why. You already know why you don't. So put two and two together.

    "Baseless claims" is all this thread is. The only facts are "This game has this, and this game doesn't".
    Everything else about which does it better, or is more "insert genre here" is down to each individual.

    I'm sure many people didn't find World Adventures an RPG game, doesn't make it not one.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are.

    But we are comparing base game concepts.

    The Sims 3 base game established things better, but the gameplay was baron.

    Be objective.

    For sake of argument, let's say what you're claiming is factually true and isn't a matter of opinion. Even if Sims 4 were objectively the better overall package, this does not change that for example, Sims 3 objectively has the better world building, the better home customization and the better trait lineup.

    When you put everything into one basket, all you're doing is masking and protecting the specific areas where Sims 4 has flaws. That's not helping it improve, as you're also masking those flaws from discussions and from the devs themselves. If something is flawed or considered worse, it needs to be discussed. Even if Sims 4 improved on 3 in literally every category aside from those three, that does not mean "Sims 4 has worse traits, world building and home customization than 3" is a false statement.

    Aside from that, I'd remind you that empty statements such as "The Sims 4 base game might have less "groundwork" and Customization but it had way more things for Sims to do," are just that: empty statements. You have to support a claim with an argument, though even so this is distracting from my point and my focus, which is the individual issues where Sims 4 quite clearly comes up short and how to improve on those.

    World building is a distraction, and arrived alongside WA. If I wanted a World building Simulator, I would play SimCity. They gave us CAW because it was easy for them to do so, but it isn't "The Sims" as concept, and is something extra.

    I've never had an issue with traits in The Sims 4, because I find them just as interesting as the ones in 3, aka they aren't.
    The Sims 3 traits have the same effect, and I literally forget what traits I give certain Sims in 3, unless it's gameplay based.

    The Sims 2 personality system (especially on console) is more effective.

    I'm not covering The Sims 4 flaws, I'm stating that even with those flaws, I have things to do.

    To call world building and such sandbox elements "a distraction" is certainly odd, especially given the existence of such tools in both of the past two games. You may not value it and that's fine as that's your right, but my point is it would seem a not-insignificant number of players DO like those things and miss them, and the lack thereof in Sims 4 is hindering their enjoyment of the franchise. Since fan satisfaction is the goal of every game, it would be wise to cater some content to these folks at least to some degree, rather than outright neglect them.


    If you want a basic comparison of Sims 3 traits vs. Sims 4 traits, it's really that simple. One has a long list of things it did, the other has three, two of which are again tied into the emotions system (aka it's the respective emotions causing effects, not the trait itself) and the last does absolutely nothing special or meaningful beyond adding additional meaningless socials to cycle through with no special function.
    The Sims 2 personality system (especially on console) is more effective.

    Cool! Let's discuss why that is and how to get Sims 4 on par with that game is. Before we do that though, you'll have to back up your statement with arguments to explain why it was better, otherwise I have nothing to work with.
    I'm not covering The Sims 4 flaws

    Guess what? I am. That's what this topic is for: the flaws and lack of features pertaining to RPG and Sandbox elements as outlined to the best of my ability in the OP. You're welcome to make your own topic discussing whatever you like if you don't like this one.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    Blargian wrote: »
    I get that you feel strongly about this, and I totally agree with a lot of your points, but maybe no one wants to "engage" in this "conversation" because it seems like you just want people to agree with you. When people try to reply to you, albeit not as articulate, they get an essay as a response telling them that they are making "blanket statements" and aren't giving you the answers you want. Do not tell people that their opinion is not constructive or helpful.

    "There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles." I do not agree with this. You are very smart and constructive, but please don't pretend this makes you objective, as you clearly are very passionate about this topic.

    "I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore." I am a fan of all previous titles, but I adapted and accepted that Sims 4 was a new game. If I wanted to play the other games, I would. Maybe fans like you really could not adapt, and that is totally fine and disappointing. I play lots of RPG games and Sandbox games, but when push comes to shove, Simulation games are ones that I could play casually and for longer periods of time in the context of games like the Sims series.

    By the way, I really am upset that I can't make a fence if my house has a foundation. That is complete bollocks and needs to be fixed. I will give you that. You can make sunken living rooms though... Unless my idea of a sunken living room is not the same as yours?

    Basically because I don't feel as strongly about this, to be that articulate. For the simple fact, it does nothing.
    I'm here to discuss why The Sims 4 disappoints some, and not others, by giving a comparison of each game and why The Sims 4 may not hit the mark for some.

    DC then clipped my whole post, and asked me to explain more than what the thread asked me to.
  • jackjack_kjackjack_k Posts: 8,601 Member
    edited April 2017
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    I think is is very nontrivial that there is a tendency to make unfair comparisons.

    It is entirely unfair to compare TS2 or TS3 with all their expansions to TS4, which still isn't through its development cycle. But a lot of people do this anyway.

    You asked for my thoughts, here they are.

    But we are comparing base game concepts.

    The Sims 3 base game established things better, but the gameplay was baron.

    Be objective.

    For sake of argument, let's say what you're claiming is factually true and isn't a matter of opinion. Even if Sims 4 were objectively the better overall package, this does not change that for example, Sims 3 objectively has the better world building, the better home customization and the better trait lineup.

    When you put everything into one basket, all you're doing is masking and protecting the specific areas where Sims 4 has flaws. That's not helping it improve, as you're also masking those flaws from discussions and from the devs themselves. If something is flawed or considered worse, it needs to be discussed. Even if Sims 4 improved on 3 in literally every category aside from those three, that does not mean "Sims 4 has worse traits, world building and home customization than 3" is a false statement.

    Aside from that, I'd remind you that empty statements such as "The Sims 4 base game might have less "groundwork" and Customization but it had way more things for Sims to do," are just that: empty statements. You have to support a claim with an argument, though even so this is distracting from my point and my focus, which is the individual issues where Sims 4 quite clearly comes up short and how to improve on those.

    World building is a distraction, and arrived alongside WA. If I wanted a World building Simulator, I would play SimCity. They gave us CAW because it was easy for them to do so, but it isn't "The Sims" as concept, and is something extra.

    I've never had an issue with traits in The Sims 4, because I find them just as interesting as the ones in 3, aka they aren't.
    The Sims 3 traits have the same effect, and I literally forget what traits I give certain Sims in 3, unless it's gameplay based.

    The Sims 2 personality system (especially on console) is more effective.

    I'm not covering The Sims 4 flaws, I'm stating that even with those flaws, I have things to do.

    To call world building and such sandbox elements "a distraction" is certainly odd, especially given the existence of such tools in both of the past two games. You may not value it and that's fine as that's your right, but my point is it would seem a not-insignificant number of players DO like those things and miss them, and the lack thereof in Sims 4 is hindering their enjoyment of the franchise. Since fan satisfaction is the goal of every game, it would be wise to cater some content to these folks at least to some degree, rather than outright neglect them.


    If you want a basic comparison of Sims 3 traits vs. Sims 4 traits, it's really that simple. One has a long list of things it did, the other has three, two of which are again tied into the emotions system (aka it's the respective emotions causing effects, not the trait itself) and the last does absolutely nothing special or meaningful beyond adding additional meaningless socials to cycle through with no special function.
    The Sims 2 personality system (especially on console) is more effective.

    Cool! Let's discuss why that is and how to get Sims 4 on par with that game is. Before we do that though, you'll have to back up your statement with arguments to explain why it was better, otherwise I have nothing to work with.
    I'm not covering The Sims 4 flaws

    Guess what? I am. That's what this topic is for: the flaws and lack of features pertaining to RPG and Sandbox elements as outlined to the best of my ability in the OP. You're welcome to make your own topic discussing whatever you like if you don't like this one.

    World Building was never "The Sims" so offering me something instead of "The Sims" rather than "alongside" The Sims, doesn't sit with me.
    The Sims 2 didn't have world building, it had lot and object placement. Very different. World Building was part of SimCity 4.

    And that is true, some fans do want those things. I for one, see it as an extra. I want Create A World, as my signature suggests, but it does not make or break the game for me. Things like Community Lots, Venues, Activities, things that are "The Sims" are more important to me than things that are not.

    I would rather be able to have a mansion full of activities for Sims to do, than a Mansion with almost nothing, but I can choose the colours.
    That's the difference between each base game for me, when it comes down to "options" vs "content".

    That's why I enjoy 4, and why others probably don't. They would rather enjoy the "set dressing" gameplay, over the activities for the Sims to do on set. And that's fine for me :)


    I don't agree with the Traits being any more dull in 4, than they were in 3. As I said, I always forgot what traits my Sims have in both games, unless they change gameplay (like Vegetarian, Insane etc). The Genius trait in 3 may claim to do all that, but I don't notice it anymore in-game. A list won't change why The Sims 4 doesn't disappoint me, which is what the thread asks me.

    -

    The Sims 2 personality just actively changed behaviour constantly, rather than when the game decided to remember the Sims traits occasionally. Shy Sims were shy all the time, and would walk away when a room got crowded, Outgoing Sims would look for people. Lazy Sims would never clean up after themselves, Neat Sims would look for things to clean.

    The Sims 2 console system went one further, and also had an Emotion system. But the personality points, dedicated the emotions the Sims would be in, not the emotions overriding traits (A Lazy Sim being energized, a Shy sim being Flirty).

    The Sims 3/4 trait system is merely a mask over a generic Sim with more chances of behaving a certain way, but never guaranteed. It would just unlock certain gameplay for one Sim with that trait, and provide moodlets to tell us how the traits affects overall mood, without changing the gameplay on my screen.

    -

    I'm allowed to answer the threads point, without telling you as if you have never played any of them. You know The Sims 3, you know The Sims 4. You know what I'm referring to, you don't need me to tell you as if you've never played.
    Providing evidence doesn't change how a game disappoints me or doesn't. It just means I spend time, telling you what you already know, and then you telling me how I should change my opinion based on your evidence, because your evidence is different to mine.
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    edited April 2017
    Blargian wrote: »
    I get that you feel strongly about this, and I totally agree with a lot of your points, but maybe no one wants to "engage" in this "conversation" because it seems like you just want people to agree with you. When people try to reply to you, albeit not as articulate, they get an essay as a response telling them that they are making "blanket statements" and aren't giving you the answers you want. Do not tell people that their opinion is not constructive or helpful.

    "There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles." I do not agree with this. You are very smart and constructive, but please don't pretend this makes you objective, as you clearly are very passionate about this topic.

    "I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore." I am a fan of all previous titles, but I adapted and accepted that Sims 4 was a new game. If I wanted to play the other games, I would. Maybe fans like you really could not adapt, and that is totally fine and disappointing. I play lots of RPG games and Sandbox games, but when push comes to shove, Simulation games are ones that I could play casually and for longer periods of time in the context of games like the Sims series.

    By the way, I really am upset that I can't make a fence if my house has a foundation. That is complete bollocks and needs to be fixed. I will give you that. You can make sunken living rooms though... Unless my idea of a sunken living room is not the same as yours?

    There's currently only one user attempting to engage, and if you haven't noticed, they're quite fond of baseless claims. I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is baseless claims cannot be discussed. If I were to state "Oscar Wilde was the greatest unicycle rider," then I've given you absolutely no measurement of what that means, no information as to why I believe that, no information on other great unicycle riders, no nothing. Understandably, I can't discuss that. And yes, to write off Sims 4's poor reception as par for the course while refusing to acknowledge the particular examples is a blanket statement that fails to accomplish anything. I don't know what you want from me or how I couldn't responded "better" because once again, there's nothing to work with. I never said their opinion was not constructive or helpful, but when it's made with zero supporting evidence or zero supporting statements, yeah, that's a fashion where I have very little to respond to beyond repeating my own opinion, which I'd imagine would be rather dull for onlookers like yourself.
    "There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles." I do not agree with this. You are very smart and constructive, but please don't pretend this makes you objective, as you clearly are very passionate about this topic.

    Great example. If you wish to explain why you disagree with me? I'd be happy to discuss it. If you leave me with what you've provided, there's not really much for me to say. You're under no obligation to provide me with an explanation for your opinion, but as I said it's difficult to provide a response to "I do not agree with this" with anything other than a "why?" I also never claimed it was absolutely objective that this game has less tools, but rather my point was to highlight how difficult it would be to argue that Sims 4 has more tools when immediately, I can name examples of things Sims 4 can't do that Sims 2 and 3 can. When I try to think of things that Sims 4 can do that the others can't....? All that comes to mind is some of the roof customization tools (roof height, curve, trim), and it's a bit difficult to argue that those make up for some of the other tools missing since roof tools involve far less functionality or direct gameplay implications than a sunken living room or a house on a hill, for example. It's not objective, but likewise I think it's also VERY clear why someone might prefer the other tools to the roof tools we now have, so it's rather difficult to discredit opposing arguments as petty or insignificant. If you prefer the roof tools over the other stuff, that's your perogative, but I hope you can agree it'd be very difficult to imagine a scenario where we can argue for the value of roof tools but CANNOT see value in things like greater foundation control, sloped terrain and the like. It's a scenario where I believe it's difficult to write-off such complaints as anything but "completely valid and understandable." Make sense?

    Also, thanks for inadvertedly letting me know about sunken living rooms. Admittedly, I am not a builder, so I get confused on what can and cannot be done. I remember complaints being made, but perhaps I've confused what is and isn't doable. :#

    EDIT: It wasn't sunken living rooms that were impossible, it was raised living rooms. I had it backwards. Sunken is possible as it just requires a foundation be used, but individually raised portions of a home require the old deck tool, which is no longer a thing.
    Post edited by DeservedCriticism on
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    jackjack_k wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that each of The Sims games are completely different.

    Everyone keeps using that word, and interestingly I seem to recall the Sims Team used it first after the lackluster Sims 4 release. Could it be they wanted that word and certain narratives like the Sims 4 having a different "artistic vision" catching on because such narratives do well to distract from the problems and faults?

    I mean no offense, but to me "different" can often be a codeword for "bad." I don't mean that in the sense that Sims 4 is irrefutably bad or undeniably worse than others, but here in this thread I am asking you to objectively seperate and examine how Sims 4 caters to these three areas of gameplay, completely independent from each other. Maybe you could make a case for how Sims 4 has the best simulation elements in the entire franchise, but for the latter two...? It seems very clear that Sims 4 is worse than the previous titles at both RPG aspects and Sandbox gameplay, yet you choose to use the term "different" instead of acknowledging this.

    I for one refuse to believe that somewhere between 2013 and 2014, the fanbase magically changed and suddenly RPG fans and Sandbox fans simply aren't there and simply don't play the Sims anymore. If that was supposed to happen, clearly I and many other fans missed the memo that RPG and Sandbox fans like myself were supposed to just abandon ship for no reason. This is a franchise that has existed since 2000, and all three have been here from the start. As such, these fans are being neglected. It's not "different," it's not "different" fans and demographics. No, the game is doing a poor job of catering to these two.

    Let's not sugarcoat it and try to downplay it by using niceties like "different," let's call it out for what it is. If you personally like Sims 4 over the others, that's fine and that's your opinion, and it may be a perfectly reasonable opinion if you personally don't care about RPG or Sandbox elements...but when we objectively examine how many gameplay elements reflect what I've defined as RPG aspects or what I've defined as Sandbox elements, it becomes VERY difficult to make a case that these haven't dropped in both number and in quality. Therefore, they are worse, not "different." As such, it's no wonder that fans of such gameplay elements and critical of Sims 4 and rather disappointed in it.

    Nope. The Sims 2 was a complete 180 over the original. Completely different, just based on the concept.
    Was The Sims 2 bad?

    Again, this is not an objective argument at all. You guys are sticking to blanket statements with ZERO supporting evidence provided, while failing to acknowledge individual and exact issues raised.

    Even your interpretation is bad. You seem to believe I equate "different" with "bad," but again what you fail to acknowledge is that my argument is certain gameplay aspects have existed since Sims 1, namely simulation aspects, RPG aspects and sandbox aspects. While the other three games (less so 1) have all provided for these and attempted to either improve on them or provide something new, Sims 4 has largely neglected RPG aspects and sandbox elements. There's very few things to distinguish two Sims from one another in terms of functionality when compared to past titles. There's very few tools available in terms of what players can do to try and make their save file feel as unique and customized as possible compared to past titles. On both counts, there has been a practically objective (AKA not a subject of opinion or debate) drop in the amount of content available in these respects. Because these are features that have been cornerstone features of every Sims game since Sims 1 and because Sims 4 had the worst launch reception of the bunch, this correlation is absolutely worth examining and discussing.

    Instead, all you guys are doing is refusing discussion and trying to discredit the discussion itself rather than attempting to engage in it.

    I don't need to explain myself, to tell you how I perceive the games.

    Then why are you here? You're under no obligation to do so, but if I'm telling you empty statements with zero supporting arguments such as "People consider the original Sims the ultimate Sandbox out of them all, and The Sims 4 has more Sandbox options" do absolutely nothing to promote discussion, then why are you here? I can't discuss such a statement because you've given me no supporting evidence to agree with or refute. You just make baseless claims; the most I can do with that is ask you to support your argument, but that A.) distracts from the arguments I've already made and wish to discuss, as outlined in the main post, and B.) I've already done this and already you've ignored that request.

    You're also completely ignoring anything I've said and you continue to bring up random claims and other topics that I never spoke a word of. There is nothing objective about anything you're saying; you seem to not like the points of discussion I've raised, so instead you insist on points of discussion where you can "win."

    If you don't want to have a discussion of the topic, fine. No one is forcing you to do so and no one is forcing you to be here. However, please do me a favor and don't randomly bring up 20 different subjects while making baseless claims and pretend to be a part of the discussion.

    The only facts are "This game has this, and this game doesn't".

    Bingo. That is precisely what I wish to focus on, because I believe that's key to appealing to people that are unsatisfied with the current product. I think there's a common link between missing features, RPG aspects and Sandbox aspects, and believe they have a direct correlation. I want to do so with my focus particularly being on what Sims 4 lacks. Why Sims 4? Because it's currently in development and thus any commentary about what's missing can actually be responded to with the devs including such content in future updates. We could make a huge list of missing features in Sims 2, but this would be pointless cause it would change nothing about that game and nothing about Sims 4.

    This is why I'm getting low on patience when you feed me a baseless, totally unsupported opinion you have about what Sims 4 did better or what Sims 2 did better than Sims 3. All of that is irrelevant to what the topic is intended to be (and what's more, gives me nothing to work with even if I wanted to discuss your opinions of 2 vs. 3 with you), that being "here are features CONFIRMED to be missing from Sims 4, here is how I feel they are important to the enjoyment of the franchise for certain breeds of fans, and I'd love to hear thoughts on the matter." So far your only relevant input is that you feel fans of create-a-world and greater neighborhood control tools are in love with a side attraction that was never meant to be a staple of the series. You're free to have that opinion, but this does not change that people who like such features are disappointed. All we really can do is wait to see how many people respond saying "I do/don't agree" regarding either your or my assessment, and from there perhaps determine if such a feature is worth pursuing/encouraging to the Sims team.

    I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but understand that much of what you've posted thusfar, quite frankly, strays off topic. You have a nice little criticism of Sims 2's aspirations system for example, but that does absolutely nothing for this topic, as I'm neither discussing Sims 2 nor am I even discussing Sims 4's aspirations system, nor do I really see how 4's aspiration system relates to missing features at all.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
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