Dude I dunno if you've noticed, but both my post AND YOUR POST are gone. I even apologized within my post because yeah I knew I was going off topic by responding, and I'm not to suprised to see the mods came through and cleaned them, but let's be clear here: you started it. You can't provoke such a discussion, come here in the aftermath where your post is deleted too, and then act like I'm the one that took the discussion too far and took it off topic.
@DeservedCriticism : None of my posts were deleted. Only one post in this thread was deleted, and that was your bizarre, overly long, rambling, 3,000 word life story from March 22. Your response was so completely off the wall that I'm pretty sure that it wasn't deleted for violating the TOS so much (for being off topic). I'm sure it was deleted to protect you, since you were publicly exposing (and in some ways, humiliating) yourself by revealing intimate, revealing details about your personal situation on the internet for no reason whatsoever other than to win an argument.
So when you write in all caps that "my post" was deleted, this is not true. There was only one post that initiated your (now deleted) tirade, and that's the one where I talk about how there have always been progressive and cultural elements in all of the sim games going back to SimCopter, and that maybe transgenders are getting attention over disabled rights in TS4 because they're the ones getting hit hardest. There was no other phantom post. Anyone who followed this thread closely knows that this isn't true. I wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you're misremembering what happened, but judging from the slightly unhinged toned of your posts, something tells me that you're not.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
Are you truly so blind as to how needlessly divisive and even discriminatory you're being when you needlessly bring race into this...? It's painful to watch.
It's divisive to point out some other privileged position than cis? Oh.
Anyway, my point about it being good to give people with non-privileged identities the ability to self-represent remains, whether you find a particular kind of privileged position "divisive" or not. Letting people who historically have been unable to represent themselves do so is a good thing even when it's unpopular or "divisive". I'm really proud to have been supporting a franchise with my money since 2000 that puts my money to this kind of use. I hope they continue.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
Dude I dunno if you've noticed, but both my post AND YOUR POST are gone. I even apologized within my post because yeah I knew I was going off topic by responding, and I'm not to suprised to see the mods came through and cleaned them, but let's be clear here: you started it. You can't provoke such a discussion, come here in the aftermath where your post is deleted too, and then act like I'm the one that took the discussion too far and took it off topic.
@DeservedCriticism : None of my posts were deleted. Only one post in this thread was deleted, and that was your bizarre, overly long, rambling, 3,000 word life story from March 22. Your response was so completely off the wall that I'm pretty sure that it wasn't deleted for violating the TOS so much (for being off topic). I'm sure it was deleted to protect you, since you were publicly exposing (and in some ways, humiliating) yourself by revealing intimate, revealing details about your personal situation on the internet for no reason whatsoever other than to win an argument.
So when you write in all caps that "my post" was deleted, this is not true. There was only one post that initiated your (now deleted) tirade, and that's the one where I talk about how there have always been progressive and cultural elements in all of the sim games going back to SimCopter, and that maybe transgenders are getting attention over disabled rights in TS4 because they're the ones getting hit hardest. There was no other phantom post. Anyone who followed this thread closely knows that this isn't true. I wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you're misremembering what happened, but judging from the slightly unhinged toned of your posts, something tells me that you're not.
Please stop creating a competition between disabled and transgendered people again. This isn't welcome, and as a disabled person who have been severely abused and discriminated myself, this is starting to get frankly offensive. I gave links to read and you haven't even taken attention to them. Both communities have it very hard and denying the reality of things about disability is disrespectful. Next time you're implying things you don't know about disabled people, your post will be reported.
Dude I dunno if you've noticed, but both my post AND YOUR POST are gone. I even apologized within my post because yeah I knew I was going off topic by responding, and I'm not to suprised to see the mods came through and cleaned them, but let's be clear here: you started it. You can't provoke such a discussion, come here in the aftermath where your post is deleted too, and then act like I'm the one that took the discussion too far and took it off topic.
@DeservedCriticism : None of my posts were deleted. Only one post in this thread was deleted, and that was your bizarre, overly long, rambling, 3,000 word life story from March 22. Your response was so completely off the wall that I'm pretty sure that it wasn't deleted for violating the TOS so much (for being off topic). I'm sure it was deleted to protect you, since you were publicly exposing (and in some ways, humiliating) yourself by revealing intimate, revealing details about your personal situation on the internet for no reason whatsoever other than to win an argument.
So when you write in all caps that "my post" was deleted, this is not true. There was only one post that initiated your (now deleted) tirade, and that's the one where I talk about how there have always been progressive and cultural elements in all of the sim games going back to SimCopter, and that maybe transgenders are getting attention over disabled rights in TS4 because they're the ones getting hit hardest. There was no other phantom post. Anyone who followed this thread closely knows that this isn't true. I wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you're misremembering what happened, but judging from the slightly unhinged toned of your posts, something tells me that you're not.
Indeed you're correct and I was mistaken. I find it a bit of a travesty, personally. I meant what I said that I didn't want some "oppression olympics" where minority groups are compared for hardships they face, so I can understand why mine would be deleted....but to see they gladly leave yours up as it's claiming "trans are more oppressed" when what the heck, I still find such comparisons terrible....not gonna lie, that's legitimately saddening. (not your fault it got left up, but still saddening)
It's divisive to point out some other privileged position than cis? Oh.
Anyway, my point about it being good to give people with non-privileged identities the ability to self-represent remains, whether you find a particular kind of privileged position "divisive" or not. Letting people who historically have been unable to represent themselves do so is a good thing even when it's unpopular or "divisive". I'm really proud to have been supporting a franchise with my money since 2000 that puts my money to this kind of use. I hope they continue.
This is why it's a problem:
"I think trying to include everyone will get hectic and difficult and distract from the core focus of the game."
"Yeah well you're a white cis male."
"Whelp, that's settled then! Discussion over."
"I think trying to include everyone will get hectic and difficult and distract from the core focus of the game and I'm a black lesbian woman."
"Good point. We should definitely listen to this person's insight."
It's faulty logic. It focuses on the person speaking rather than what's been said. It seeks to silence a certain group of people for not being the right race, also known as racism. The entire logic behind the claim is even an attempt to guilt a person into agreeing why a certain update is good for the game, instead of trying to logically claim how the the update can or cannot contribute to gameplay in a meaningful way.
There is some degree of truth to not being able to experience some hardships firsthand based on your own situation....but we're talking about a game here. There was no mention of race before you got here. You needlessly brought race into this discussion about game development, and you did so to silence somebody.
And yes, there is a truth to the fact that including minority groups DOES distract from gameplay. I'm disabled, EA went on record why we'll never be included. I'm not complaining, their reasoning makes sense. But by your own faulty logic, if I were able-bodied, then I have no business commenting if EA has a "right" to skip over the disabled. That right there affords me this superpower to lord my minority pass over others and demand absolute authority. See that? That's precisely why even if someone can't perfectly sympathize with a minority group's plight, they still deserve respect and a chance to speak. The entire thought process is just so flawed and warped and only ever ceases to cast people out of a discussion for not being enough of a minority.
If you disagree with a user? Disagree with their argument, disagree with their claims. You do not need to bring race or sexual orientation or anything else into it, and by doing so, you're encouraging a divisive discussion.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
@luthienrising Are you that ignorant or just stupid? From all the depressions and suicides that did happen around me it was all white straight people (and it's not cause I'm only surrounded by mostly white straight people, for years I was mostly surrounded by lesbians and muslims), so 🐸🐸🐸🐸 off with your ''white cis privileges'', this isn't Tumblr. Being depressed, suicidal, bullied, etc... isn't 🐸🐸🐸🐸 exclusive to non- white and non-straight people, being white doesn't keep you from having problems and issues. If racism and homophobia was disappearing tomorrow, depression, suicide and bullying would still exist.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
@luthienrising Are you that ignorant or just plum? From all the depressions and suicides that did happen around me it was all white straight people (and it's not cause I'm only surrounded by mostly white straight people, for years I was mostly surrounded by lesbians and muslims), so plum off with your ''white cis privileges'', this isn't Tumblr. Being depressed, suicidal, bullied, etc... isn't plum exclusive to non- white and non-straight people, being white doesn't keep you from having problems and issues. If racism and homophobia was disappearing tomorrow, depression, suicide and bullying would still exist.
Ignorant? No, I'm familiar with mental health etc. statistics, thanks. And I never said "white people have no problems". I phrased what I said very carefully so as not to say that because I have good reason to know that white cisgender people have problems too. "Cisgender," by the way, is not a special magical Tumblr community word, nor is "privilege"; they both come from academic discourse long before anything like Tumblr existed ("privilege" in this use predates computers, even; "cisgender" goes back to 1991) and have spread out into more general use from there.
I'm not going to continue to argue over this. If you think I said something racist against white people, you're welcome to report me for it.
And that one word? Changes nothing about the value of what Maxis has done with Sims over the last 17 years for representation.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
Regardless of whether you feel it was a necessary addition to this game in particular, it's good to see a major AAA publisher include it in a game. Because if it's ever gonna get into games as a whole, it has to start there. You don't get women action heroes without someone first making a Lara Croft, for example. And let's be honest here, the Sims is made for this kind of out of the box inclusion. It can literally fit in anything from aliens to vampires to regular 9-5 jobs, lol. Your own personal bias doesn't mean it doesn't fit into the game 'universe' or 'canon' or whatever you wanna call it.
I think it was a good step for inclusion in general for the gaming industry. It's like how the original Mass Effect had 'fade-to-black' romance scenes that caused a nonsense controversy. Why? Because no one else was doing it. But now games can have that if they want. It expands the potential and possibilities, both for gamers and the devs.
I have no personal need for the gender patch, other than I use the CAS filters to give one gender another's clothing or hair they don't have on their own (like I had to give Bob Ross the women's afro because guys don't have one like it). But I'm certainly glad it's there for those folks who do want/need it. I would never shove a Simmer away to go 'to the CC underground to make your Sim' just because it doesn't benefit me. That'd be like saying "just use a toddler mod" before they came back in the game. I have no use for toddlers either. But I don't begrudge anyone for having them now.
And if they did have disabled Sims as an option? I'd be all for it. I'd personally probably use it on the elderly if I could, to better reflect them with canes or walkers or whatever. But that's not my call. Maybe someday we'll get it. Maybe in Sims 5. Maybe even in a patch later for this game, who knows? Disabilities are also another thing the gaming industry hasn't tackled yet, and that too has to start with AAA if it's gonna take off in any good way.
Regardless of whether you feel it was a necessary addition to this game in particular, it's good to see a major AAA publisher include it in a game. Because if it's ever gonna get into games as a whole, it has to start there. You don't get women action heroes without someone first making a Lara Croft, for example. And let's be honest here, the Sims is made for this kind of out of the box inclusion. It can literally fit in anything from aliens to vampires to regular 9-5 jobs, lol. Your own personal bias doesn't mean it doesn't fit into the game 'universe' or 'canon' or whatever you wanna call it.
Let me offer this as a sort of..."compromise," I guess:
Is it nice that a minority group got representation? Yes, and it's here. That's the past. How about we don't do it again for Sims 4 since too many minority group representations would detract from highly-demanded updates that the general concensus has.
I would view the update as a "mistake" in the sense it detracted from the general concensus (not on a moral level or something, I mean on an entertainment-factor level), but the thing is mistakes happen. Even if you view it as such, what's important is that we learn and improve moving forward. I'm sure if a Sims 5 is made, they'll have the sense to include transgender sims in the base game, and then we can focus on the typical stuff like Seasons, active careers, pets and so on.
No one's saying we don't think representation is good, just that representation should not be prioritized over gameplay and productive development. As such, I think leaving it at just the one little minority representation update (transgender patch) would be a nice compromise between doing a more "compassionate" update and doing more productive ones. I can't speak for everyone and others will have to say if they agree with my sentiments here, but my concerns aren't that the trans patch still exists or anything like that, but that the Sims team might do such an update again and slow down an already slow production rate for Sims 4 in doing so. If they stated tomorrow they have no such intentions and will probably only do one such similar update for Sims 5, I'd be content with that; I've no problem with such distractions so long as they're kept under control and not a consistent thing that replaces other more involved gameplay-related updates.
In short, inclusion isn't the problem, bad priorities are the fear. If my fears are unwarranted though, then awesome, I see no problem with one update that's focused on inclusion rather than catering to the most popular demands.
The fact that some people are seeing the gay and transgender addition to TS4 as a 'sales gimmick' is purely shocking. Some people just can't accept that fact that games want to be more diverse and open. They can't wrap their head around the TS4 when it's trying to do something for the power of good, which truly saddens me because people used to be so much nicer and happier around here.
Honestly, if TS4 didn't add in gays and transgenders, people would be complaining like mad and wanting them in their gameplay. It looks as if nobody can do anything reasonable.
@AvaSims4080 and to other simmers i will say this only once but if you would of seen all the topics from players that complain about the trrans patch you would of seen how negative the forum became i am one of those players that do not like the trans gender patch so i am avoiding that content in my game and not using it not everyone plays the sims4 the same and if there is a sims5 i will be sure to read everything before deciding to buy because at the moment i am undecided if i will be moving on to the sims5 in order for me to move on to the sims5 the sims5 would need to be a major wow in order for me to move on and diffrent from sims2 sims3 and sims4
If you went the sims5 to remain offline feel free to sign this petition http://chng.it/gtfHPhHK please note that it is also to keep the gallery
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
I do not believe this! So because I am 'white' I am automatically free being 'socially excluded' and 'prone to problems' against those of a different 'race'
I mean I was taught that everyone is equal and no person, regardless of any background is above another but hear I am today, being told that as a white person, I must be free from any issues whatsoever.
There are other things I would like to add but as I am on the 'wrong side of the fence' on these forums I can only say too much at certain times so I will have to take my ranting else where
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
@luthienrising Are you that ignorant or just plum? From all the depressions and suicides that did happen around me it was all white straight people (and it's not cause I'm only surrounded by mostly white straight people, for years I was mostly surrounded by lesbians and muslims), so plum off with your ''white cis privileges'', this isn't Tumblr. Being depressed, suicidal, bullied, etc... isn't plum exclusive to non- white and non-straight people, being white doesn't keep you from having problems and issues. If racism and homophobia was disappearing tomorrow, depression, suicide and bullying would still exist.
Indeed you're correct and I was mistaken. I find it a bit of a travesty, personally. I meant what I said that I didn't want some "oppression olympics" where minority groups are compared for hardships they face, so I can understand why mine would be deleted....but to see they gladly leave yours up as it's claiming "trans are more oppressed" when what the heck, I still find such comparisons terrible....not gonna lie, that's legitimately saddening. (not your fault it got left up, but still saddening)
@DeservedCriticism They left mine up because my response was on topic, didn't personally attack anyone and didn't violate any TOS. They took yours down because it was completely off topic, put you at possible risk (since it exposed so much) and dragged the discussion to a personal level that it never should've gone to. So what you shouldn't be feeling is sadness over my post being left up. What you should be feeling is relief and gratitude that a potentially embarrassing post of yours was taken down. I know it sucks sometimes when mods take down a particular post (feels like they're singling you out and everything) but sometimes it's actually in your best interest to delete a post.
BTW, thanks for owning up to your mistake. Major respect, and no hard feelings.
@AvaSims4080 and to other simmers i will say this only once but if you would of seen all the topics from players that complain about the trrans patch you would of seen how negative the forum became i am one of those players that do not like the trans gender patch so i am avoiding that content in my game and not using it not everyone plays the sims4 the same and if there is a sims5 i will be sure to read everything before deciding to buy because at the moment i am undecided if i will be moving on to the sims5 in order for me to move on to the sims5 the sims5 would need to be a major wow in order for me to move on and diffrent from sims2 sims3 and sims4
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
This is a pretty intense post, surprised to see this kind of demeanor from you. Social issues exist everywhere. In every country on every continent, but I don't think here is the best place to engage in a heated political debate.
As a member of the LGBT community I can wholeheartedly say the argumentative nature of your post is not the tone I would choose when trying to explain my POV on these sensitive issues. Step 1 would be eliminating the racially charged comments. We are all humans, regardless of race/gender - taking jabs at one group to promote the interests or concerns of another is hypocritical and not how you spread the message of love, inclusion, and acceptance. Just my 2 cents.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
This is a pretty intense post, surprised to see this kind of demeanor from you. Social issues exist everywhere. In every country on every continent, but I don't think here is the best place to engage in a heated political debate.
As a member of the LGBT community I can wholeheartedly say the argumentative nature of your post is not the tone I would choose when trying to explain my POV on these sensitive issues. Step 1 would be eliminating the racially charged comments. We are all humans, regardless of race/gender - taking jabs at one group to promote the interests or concerns of another is hypocritical and not how you spread the message of love, inclusion, and acceptance. Just my 2 cents.
Well said
I think that brining race into the argument is a big disappointment for the forums. All that just to prove a point is actually going o do very little for future arguments.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
This is a pretty intense post, surprised to see this kind of demeanor from you. Social issues exist everywhere. In every country on every continent, but I don't think here is the best place to engage in a heated political debate.
As a member of the LGBT community I can wholeheartedly say the argumentative nature of your post is not the tone I would choose when trying to explain my POV on these sensitive issues. Step 1 would be eliminating the racially charged comments. We are all humans, regardless of race/gender - taking jabs at one group to promote the interests or concerns of another is hypocritical and not how you spread the message of love, inclusion, and acceptance. Just my 2 cents.
Well said
I think that brining race into the argument is a big disappointment for the forums. All that just to prove a point is actually going o do very little for future arguments.
It's just not relevant to any discussion here. This forum is a place for simmers of all kinds to come hangout, and banter back and forth how they feel about the game and what they would like to see next.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
This is a pretty intense post, surprised to see this kind of demeanor from you. Social issues exist everywhere. In every country on every continent, but I don't think here is the best place to engage in a heated political debate.
As a member of the LGBT community I can wholeheartedly say the argumentative nature of your post is not the tone I would choose when trying to explain my POV on these sensitive issues. Step 1 would be eliminating the racially charged comments. We are all humans, regardless of race/gender - taking jabs at one group to promote the interests or concerns of another is hypocritical and not how you spread the message of love, inclusion, and acceptance. Just my 2 cents.
Well said
I think that brining race into the argument is a big disappointment for the forums. All that just to prove a point is actually going o do very little for future arguments.
It's just not relevant to any discussion here. This forum is a place for simmers of all kinds to come hangout, and banter back and forth how they feel about the game and what they would like to see next.
I agree.
The day that race is used on the forums is the day that the forums is no longer the friendly place that we all strive to make it.
I guess some people have never heard of 'white trash.' Glad some are privileged. Anyhoo...
What the heck happened to this post?
I was reading it one day and nodding and shaking my head along, and then all the sudden my head hit the desk.
I think I agree with the main point deservedCritisism was attempting to make—that the sales are politically driven for the sake of damage control. I feel the point that poster was attempting to make was that it wasn't so much politically driven as much as it was rushed and half-baked though--Politically correct agendas aside. I honestly don't know anymore. I have no idea what happened despite that I've been reading with some confusion over all the arguments that seemed to be skipping over the point I thought someone was trying to make. Things get lost in translation though. *shrugs*
I'm going to regretfully side with what I think I'm siding with here though. I'm going to go off on a limb and say that I do believe the team could put more effort on quality opposed to winning 'sides' for the sake of sales.
The rest should really be put to rest.
Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
Heh. I can have it in my own back yard. You would cringe at the amount of printer paper and cardstock I've got hiding in those bags.
Well you try living with someone who never cleans up after themselves and that I am very sure washes rarely. If they where a Sim they would have some kind of slob trait, and a red hygiene bar!
Heh. I can have it in my own back yard. You would cringe at the amount of printer paper and cardstock I've got hiding in those bags.
Well you try living with someone who never cleans up after themselves and that I am very sure washes rarely. If they where a Sim they would have some kind of slob trait, and a red hygiene bar!
I do believe I may be that very person you are referring to. You have not seen my 'crafting' room.
Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
Heh. I can have it in my own back yard. You would cringe at the amount of printer paper and cardstock I've got hiding in those bags.
Well you try living with someone who never cleans up after themselves and that I am very sure washes rarely. If they where a Sim they would have some kind of slob trait, and a red hygiene bar!
I do believe I may be that very person you are referring to. You have not seen my 'crafting' room.
There is no crafting room here, but we do have a junk room though with no windows, some old furniture and even a hole in the floor. Just your standard 'man cave' really
Comments
@DeservedCriticism : None of my posts were deleted. Only one post in this thread was deleted, and that was your bizarre, overly long, rambling, 3,000 word life story from March 22. Your response was so completely off the wall that I'm pretty sure that it wasn't deleted for violating the TOS so much (for being off topic). I'm sure it was deleted to protect you, since you were publicly exposing (and in some ways, humiliating) yourself by revealing intimate, revealing details about your personal situation on the internet for no reason whatsoever other than to win an argument.
So when you write in all caps that "my post" was deleted, this is not true. There was only one post that initiated your (now deleted) tirade, and that's the one where I talk about how there have always been progressive and cultural elements in all of the sim games going back to SimCopter, and that maybe transgenders are getting attention over disabled rights in TS4 because they're the ones getting hit hardest. There was no other phantom post. Anyone who followed this thread closely knows that this isn't true. I wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you're misremembering what happened, but judging from the slightly unhinged toned of your posts, something tells me that you're not.
It's divisive to point out some other privileged position than cis? Oh.
Anyway, my point about it being good to give people with non-privileged identities the ability to self-represent remains, whether you find a particular kind of privileged position "divisive" or not. Letting people who historically have been unable to represent themselves do so is a good thing even when it's unpopular or "divisive". I'm really proud to have been supporting a franchise with my money since 2000 that puts my money to this kind of use. I hope they continue.
Please stop creating a competition between disabled and transgendered people again. This isn't welcome, and as a disabled person who have been severely abused and discriminated myself, this is starting to get frankly offensive. I gave links to read and you haven't even taken attention to them. Both communities have it very hard and denying the reality of things about disability is disrespectful. Next time you're implying things you don't know about disabled people, your post will be reported.
My Sims 3 blog, Back to the Sims 3
Indeed you're correct and I was mistaken. I find it a bit of a travesty, personally. I meant what I said that I didn't want some "oppression olympics" where minority groups are compared for hardships they face, so I can understand why mine would be deleted....but to see they gladly leave yours up as it's claiming "trans are more oppressed" when what the heck, I still find such comparisons terrible....not gonna lie, that's legitimately saddening. (not your fault it got left up, but still saddening)
This is why it's a problem:
"I think trying to include everyone will get hectic and difficult and distract from the core focus of the game."
"Yeah well you're a white cis male."
"Whelp, that's settled then! Discussion over."
"I think trying to include everyone will get hectic and difficult and distract from the core focus of the game and I'm a black lesbian woman."
"Good point. We should definitely listen to this person's insight."
It's faulty logic. It focuses on the person speaking rather than what's been said. It seeks to silence a certain group of people for not being the right race, also known as racism. The entire logic behind the claim is even an attempt to guilt a person into agreeing why a certain update is good for the game, instead of trying to logically claim how the the update can or cannot contribute to gameplay in a meaningful way.
There is some degree of truth to not being able to experience some hardships firsthand based on your own situation....but we're talking about a game here. There was no mention of race before you got here. You needlessly brought race into this discussion about game development, and you did so to silence somebody.
And yes, there is a truth to the fact that including minority groups DOES distract from gameplay. I'm disabled, EA went on record why we'll never be included. I'm not complaining, their reasoning makes sense. But by your own faulty logic, if I were able-bodied, then I have no business commenting if EA has a "right" to skip over the disabled. That right there affords me this superpower to lord my minority pass over others and demand absolute authority. See that? That's precisely why even if someone can't perfectly sympathize with a minority group's plight, they still deserve respect and a chance to speak. The entire thought process is just so flawed and warped and only ever ceases to cast people out of a discussion for not being enough of a minority.
If you disagree with a user? Disagree with their argument, disagree with their claims. You do not need to bring race or sexual orientation or anything else into it, and by doing so, you're encouraging a divisive discussion.
@luthienrising Are you that ignorant or just stupid? From all the depressions and suicides that did happen around me it was all white straight people (and it's not cause I'm only surrounded by mostly white straight people, for years I was mostly surrounded by lesbians and muslims), so 🐸🐸🐸🐸 off with your ''white cis privileges'', this isn't Tumblr. Being depressed, suicidal, bullied, etc... isn't 🐸🐸🐸🐸 exclusive to non- white and non-straight people, being white doesn't keep you from having problems and issues. If racism and homophobia was disappearing tomorrow, depression, suicide and bullying would still exist.
Ignorant? No, I'm familiar with mental health etc. statistics, thanks. And I never said "white people have no problems". I phrased what I said very carefully so as not to say that because I have good reason to know that white cisgender people have problems too. "Cisgender," by the way, is not a special magical Tumblr community word, nor is "privilege"; they both come from academic discourse long before anything like Tumblr existed ("privilege" in this use predates computers, even; "cisgender" goes back to 1991) and have spread out into more general use from there.
I'm not going to continue to argue over this. If you think I said something racist against white people, you're welcome to report me for it.
And that one word? Changes nothing about the value of what Maxis has done with Sims over the last 17 years for representation.
I think it was a good step for inclusion in general for the gaming industry. It's like how the original Mass Effect had 'fade-to-black' romance scenes that caused a nonsense controversy. Why? Because no one else was doing it. But now games can have that if they want. It expands the potential and possibilities, both for gamers and the devs.
I have no personal need for the gender patch, other than I use the CAS filters to give one gender another's clothing or hair they don't have on their own (like I had to give Bob Ross the women's afro because guys don't have one like it). But I'm certainly glad it's there for those folks who do want/need it. I would never shove a Simmer away to go 'to the CC underground to make your Sim' just because it doesn't benefit me. That'd be like saying "just use a toddler mod" before they came back in the game. I have no use for toddlers either. But I don't begrudge anyone for having them now.
And if they did have disabled Sims as an option? I'd be all for it. I'd personally probably use it on the elderly if I could, to better reflect them with canes or walkers or whatever. But that's not my call. Maybe someday we'll get it. Maybe in Sims 5. Maybe even in a patch later for this game, who knows? Disabilities are also another thing the gaming industry hasn't tackled yet, and that too has to start with AAA if it's gonna take off in any good way.
Let me offer this as a sort of..."compromise," I guess:
Is it nice that a minority group got representation? Yes, and it's here. That's the past. How about we don't do it again for Sims 4 since too many minority group representations would detract from highly-demanded updates that the general concensus has.
I would view the update as a "mistake" in the sense it detracted from the general concensus (not on a moral level or something, I mean on an entertainment-factor level), but the thing is mistakes happen. Even if you view it as such, what's important is that we learn and improve moving forward. I'm sure if a Sims 5 is made, they'll have the sense to include transgender sims in the base game, and then we can focus on the typical stuff like Seasons, active careers, pets and so on.
No one's saying we don't think representation is good, just that representation should not be prioritized over gameplay and productive development. As such, I think leaving it at just the one little minority representation update (transgender patch) would be a nice compromise between doing a more "compassionate" update and doing more productive ones. I can't speak for everyone and others will have to say if they agree with my sentiments here, but my concerns aren't that the trans patch still exists or anything like that, but that the Sims team might do such an update again and slow down an already slow production rate for Sims 4 in doing so. If they stated tomorrow they have no such intentions and will probably only do one such similar update for Sims 5, I'd be content with that; I've no problem with such distractions so long as they're kept under control and not a consistent thing that replaces other more involved gameplay-related updates.
In short, inclusion isn't the problem, bad priorities are the fear. If my fears are unwarranted though, then awesome, I see no problem with one update that's focused on inclusion rather than catering to the most popular demands.
That sound reasonable to everyone?
Honestly, if TS4 didn't add in gays and transgenders, people would be complaining like mad and wanting them in their gameplay. It looks as if nobody can do anything reasonable.
Repose en paix mamie tu va me manquer :
1923-2016 mamie
I do not believe this! So because I am 'white' I am automatically free being 'socially excluded' and 'prone to problems' against those of a different 'race'
I mean I was taught that everyone is equal and no person, regardless of any background is above another but hear I am today, being told that as a white person, I must be free from any issues whatsoever.
There are other things I would like to add but as I am on the 'wrong side of the fence' on these forums I can only say too much at certain times so I will have to take my ranting else where
Well said
@DeservedCriticism They left mine up because my response was on topic, didn't personally attack anyone and didn't violate any TOS. They took yours down because it was completely off topic, put you at possible risk (since it exposed so much) and dragged the discussion to a personal level that it never should've gone to. So what you shouldn't be feeling is sadness over my post being left up. What you should be feeling is relief and gratitude that a potentially embarrassing post of yours was taken down. I know it sucks sometimes when mods take down a particular post (feels like they're singling you out and everything) but sometimes it's actually in your best interest to delete a post.
BTW, thanks for owning up to your mistake. Major respect, and no hard feelings.
How'd I know you'd show up.
This is a pretty intense post, surprised to see this kind of demeanor from you. Social issues exist everywhere. In every country on every continent, but I don't think here is the best place to engage in a heated political debate.
As a member of the LGBT community I can wholeheartedly say the argumentative nature of your post is not the tone I would choose when trying to explain my POV on these sensitive issues. Step 1 would be eliminating the racially charged comments. We are all humans, regardless of race/gender - taking jabs at one group to promote the interests or concerns of another is hypocritical and not how you spread the message of love, inclusion, and acceptance. Just my 2 cents.
Well said
I think that brining race into the argument is a big disappointment for the forums. All that just to prove a point is actually going o do very little for future arguments.
It's just not relevant to any discussion here. This forum is a place for simmers of all kinds to come hangout, and banter back and forth how they feel about the game and what they would like to see next.
I agree.
The day that race is used on the forums is the day that the forums is no longer the friendly place that we all strive to make it.
What the heck happened to this post?
I was reading it one day and nodding and shaking my head along, and then all the sudden my head hit the desk.
I think I agree with the main point deservedCritisism was attempting to make—that the sales are politically driven for the sake of damage control. I feel the point that poster was attempting to make was that it wasn't so much politically driven as much as it was rushed and half-baked though--Politically correct agendas aside. I honestly don't know anymore. I have no idea what happened despite that I've been reading with some confusion over all the arguments that seemed to be skipping over the point I thought someone was trying to make. Things get lost in translation though. *shrugs*
I'm going to regretfully side with what I think I'm siding with here though. I'm going to go off on a limb and say that I do believe the team could put more effort on quality opposed to winning 'sides' for the sake of sales.
The rest should really be put to rest.
Heh. I can have it in my own back yard. You would cringe at the amount of printer paper and cardstock I've got hiding in those bags.
Well you try living with someone who never cleans up after themselves and that I am very sure washes rarely. If they where a Sim they would have some kind of slob trait, and a red hygiene bar!
I do believe I may be that very person you are referring to. You have not seen my 'crafting' room.
There is no crafting room here, but we do have a junk room though with no windows, some old furniture and even a hole in the floor. Just your standard 'man cave' really