@DeservedCriticism
.3% is still more than the percentage of babies, toddlers, aliens or vampires playing the game I doubt there's a direct correlation between reparitition in the population and how much interest there is for something in the game, and I'd say the Unisex CAS goes far further in term of possibilities than just allowing transgender people to roleplay themselves. The marketing may have advertised it that way, but the gameplay goes far beyond, basically almost doubling the number of CAS assets available, allowing you to decide whether your Sims can have children or not, and giving you a broader range of body shape and voices. There were lots of CCs that were male/female conversions because it was a way to expand the catalog and give more choices.
This...really doesn't seem like that great of an argument. You focus on the fact "we got new stuff" but you overlook that time is money, or in this case, time is content. By your logic you'll be happy with anything produced, because all content is more content. I'm saying the content we got was REALLY low quality, and it's sad to see that something low quality ate into 6 months of dev time, especially for such a mismanaged reason and motivation. You seriously can't think of a better use of their time than creating lazy retextures of existing shirts...?
Development time is development time. They could've instead just established a rule that all clothing from then on would only make unisex clothing for future packs, then spend the 6 months on something else. Or heck, spend 6 months producing new unisex clothing. The path they chose is typical for Sims 4: half-baked. I think a lot of people would prefer NOT getting the half-baked apartments of City Living so that the team could instead focus attention towards a more doable goal, but instead we got half-baked apartments. Same thing here: they say they made unisex clothing, but the unisex clothing is so low quality I honestly can't name a single piece of unisex clothing I use. There's even a hairstyle or two that I think looks ridiculous on the other gender (women now have a ponytail mullet thing) and sure enough, the townie pool uses those hairstyles to make some weird looking sims.
And the voices...? Dude, load up your game right now. Grab one of the women's voices and make them as deep as possible, or grab one of the male voices and make them as high pitched as possible. They sound RIDICULOUS. The men inhaled helium, the women sound like they're in the process of melting. That unified voice bar is actually my #1 criticism of the transgender patch, because it's annoying to be making a sim and you find yourself only utilizing half of a UI bar at any given time, constantly second-guessing if the specific point you've chosen is on the "sounds normal" parts of the bar or teetering a bit close to the ridiculous parts. There's rather large portions of the high-pitched side of the bar that I do not use PERIOD for either gender. What's more....I mean wth have they ever met a transgender individual...? I don't think describing a transgender person's voice is as simple as "ok they have a woman's voice now," nor is it just a really high-pitched male voice. If you asked me to make a transgender person's voice for a sim, I don't think the expanded options help in the slightest. I would've had equal success with the old system, pretty sure. For the life of me, I cannot imagine a transgender person ever getting use out of this expanded voice UI, because the expanded parts all sound RIDICULOUS. It's just very sloppy that they expanded the vocal range to points that sound like nothing human; it's hardly useful and just results in bad UI.
The pregnancy feature is largely ruined by another often criticized feature of theirs: alien abductions. Regardless of your gender, you can get pregnant in this game. Mark your sim as being incapable of being pregnant, and aliens can still impregnate them. Soooooo....what's the point? We're just gonna leave it like that? Yeah, there's other options, but it's kinda sad, but one of their own features ruins parts of this one, especially since reproduction is like the only feature on the list with meaningful gameplay implications.
Again, your argument comes down to "but it's more content, so that's nice." Yeah, and it might be the lowest quality content they've produced for the entire game. Why praise them for a half-baked job that nobody asked for to begin with? It's made infinitely worse by the fact their motivations for making it were probably to garner free advertising, not to appease fans.THAT'S the problem right there: we do not want a dev team that's being guided by a political agenda instead of what makes sense for making a game more appealing for the collective audience. They made that patch because they were guided by such a political agenda, and lo and behold it's often criticized as one of the lowest quality updates we've gotten. The moral of that story is to focus on gameplay and improving the game, not on making political statements, but yes we're going to miss that point entirely if the only response we provide is "yay, it's content."
This is one of the "criticized" features that I take issue with the criticism. Sims marked as not being able to get pregnant should be able to still be to foster an alien child. Sci-fi fans know that aliens follow their own reality and rules and one of those is implanting alien babies wherever they want.
I agree.
And it's comedy, it wouldn't be funny if female sims (and only them) could get pregnant this way. It's something I like about the sims' humor, like cowplants and all the rest. Imagine if a man said IRL that he's been abducted by aliens and he thinks they got him pregnant, that would be hilarious.
Who dares saying this isn't funny ! (OK this is TS3 but it's been there since TS2, and I hope it will still be there in future versions too) It's the funniest part that the pregnant sim is a guy ! And notice how the girlfriend cares much more about her salad than her new baby dailymotion.com/video/x4yhen9_sims-3-naissance-extraterrestre-alien-birth_videogames
@DeservedCriticism
And you don't know it appeals to 10 times of .3% of the population either. You have absolutely no data on the percentage of the playerbase interested in this kind of feature to base your claim it's bad priority.
@DeservedCriticism
And you don't know it appeals to 10 times of .3% of the population either. You have absolutely no data on the percentage of the playerbase interested in this kind of feature to base your claim it's bad priority.
This is why I'm not fond of discussing things with you: your argument always results in telling me I don't have factual numbers regarding a company that refuses to release factual numbers. You then sit in complete denial of the general tone of the forums, and simple facts that we STILL see people call out the transgender patch as a waste of time but rarely see praise for it these days, and just insist your take on matters is correct because there's no evidence to the contrary.
Burden of proof is on you when you make a claim. The simple fact that there's at least FOUR people in this thread that have spoken against the patch while you're currently the only one praising it...? The aformentioned fact that we see complaints about it to this day? The hard numbers on what percent of the population is allegedly transgender? Sorry, I can't do more than that, and that's not for lack of trying.....but it's still more than you are bringing.
But sure, go ahead. Keep thinking it was a FANTASTIC update that the majority of fans loved and absolutely wasn't a waste of time or a showcase of bad priorities. Evidence? (even if only circumstantial or anecdotal since neither of us can provide much more) Who needs that? We have FAITH AND OPINIONS!!!
I'm still wondering why "zomg, they did this to make money! *dramatic gasp!!11*" is something to argue about. Guess what? They made the base game to make money. They made Sims 1 to make money. They made the series to make money. The only reason the series is going 17 years later is because it makes money.
I have no doubt that some suit somewhere in marketing or whatever thought 'hey, let's appeal to this demographic to help boost sales'. Literally everything in the game goes through that. Take your most favorite aspect of your most favorite game and, guess what? It's there to sell the game or that feature to you.
But to say the devs making that patch weren't personally invested and wanted to provide that options for the community for the actual reasons to be inclusive and you know, allow for player creativity and agency? I think you're sorely mistaken and woefully ignorant, if not biased toward whatever vendetta agenda you have, because oh woe-is-you-how-EA-crushed-your-dreams or whatever.
Do you like pizza? It's marketed and designed to sell to you. Better boycott it because it's not freely given to you.
@DeservedCriticism
So you don't like that I'm not sharing the same bias as you and rather ask for source/facts than rely on your own gut feeling ? Yes, if you claim something as fact without providing any evidence, I'll point out that you have none. That's my logical side.
The percentage of population being transgender is a really thin argument. 0% of the population is a vampire, was that a bad priority too ? 0% of the population is an alien, bad priority ? 0% of the simmers are babies, should they also had not released them ? People play with other things that what they are irl : different gender, different ages, different ethnic groups, different clothes styles. Why would it be different for Unisex CAS ?
I'm not claiming my side is correct by the way, I absolutely don't know how many people like Unisex CAS. I don't have that kind of data. But then I'm not pretending I have it either. And I'm not pretending Unisex CAS is a good or bad priority for Maxis/the game based on data I don't have.
I'd agree with him on that. I have a very difficult time believing the transgender patch and cultural aspects of City Living are little more than a sales gimmick.
Anyone who's played all of the sims games from EA--not just The Sims--knows that there has been a long history of people behind the scenes adding progressive elements to them. For example, there is a notorious "gay" Easter Egg in SimCopter. Allowing sims to have gay relationships and same sex couples to have babies are two more examples. So the transgender patch is something that is completely in line with what the game has done in the past. It's not something that's so out of line to warrant the kind of suspicion you are trying to generate about it.
Transgender rights is currently a mainstream, hot-button topic....disabled rights aren't. See where I'm going with this?
No, I don't actually.
Regardless of what anyone feels about transgenders, the fact is that they as a group have it hard right now. You don't have to understand or even believe in transgenderism to know that this is true. They are regularly bullied, beaten up and murdered. They are denied social services and even medical attention in many areas. Some spend their entire childhoods and teen years friendless and loveless, even by members of their own family. Politicians and other members in a position of authority have no qualms about whipping other people into a frenzy about them.
So no--given the fact that disabled people are now treated with dignity and respect, aren't routinely singled out for beat downs, bullying (or worse), have access to many services, don't have family members turning them out into the streets for being disabled or politicians and religious figures inciting violence against them, I really don't see where you're going with any of this at all. You want to argue there's some kind of a double standard in the way people are regarding transgenders vs the disabled.
Why? To further make some illogical point that the double standard is proof that there was a cynical motive on the part of EA to have a transgender patch? Sorry. I don't understand the logic behind this at all. The disabled have their rights intact and are seen as valuable members of society worthy of respect and dignity, while transgenders aren't and are getting bullied, beaten, harassed and misunderstood.
Another thing I'm going to take issue with is when you say this:
...cultural aspects of City Living are little more than a sales gimmick.
What do you mean by "cultural aspects" of City Living? I live in NYC, and the "cultural aspects" are the norm here as they are in most cosmopolitan cities around the world. In NYC alone, we have entire enclaves of ethnic communities here from all over the world here, from Greeks, Russians and Italian-Americans to yes, Arabs, Hispanic and West Indian. The area surrounding the Old Salt House is interchangeable with areas of NYC, particularly around Chinatown. That is the reality of what many large urban cosmopolitan cities are like. It would have been unrealistic to have a city as large as San Myshuno and not have it be cultural.
Same thing with all the cities in TS4. They tried making each world as much as the type of city they were emulating. That's why so many of the townies and cultural elements in Windenburg are clearly European while the ones in CL are mostly Asian and a mixture of other ethnicities. There was no cynical motives at play in creating San Myshuno (to gain brownie points or to generate sales), any more than when the creative team decided to model Windenburg after a European city.
What's more, there have always been cultural elements in this game, going back to Sims 1. There were African, Asian and traditional style clothing and objects, including kimonos, African masks and vases. Sims 3 had World Adventures, where you could visit Egypt, France and China. For you to single out the cultural aspects in CL as something that was whipped up to generate sales--when cultural aspects have always been part of the franchise--doesn't make any sense whatsoever and says more about your own cynical view of things than it does about the reality of the game.
@DeservedCriticism
So you don't like that I'm not sharing the same bias as you and rather ask for source/facts than rely on your own gut feeling ? Yes, if you claim something as fact without providing any evidence, I'll point out that you have none. That's my logical side.
The percentage of population being transgender is a really thin argument. 0% of the population is a vampire, was that a bad priority too ? 0% of the population is an alien, bad priority ? 0% of the simmers are babies, should they also had not released them ? People play with other things that what they are irl : different gender, different ages, different ethnic groups, different clothes styles. Why would it be different for Unisex CAS ?
I'm not claiming my side is correct by the way, I absolutely don't know how many people like Unisex CAS. I don't have that kind of data. But then I'm not pretending I have it either. And I'm not pretending Unisex CAS is a good or bad priority for Maxis/the game based on data I don't have.
I'm saying make an attempt. You KNOW neither of us can provide factual evidence. You KNOW that if you demand evidence, all it does is shut down discussion.
But because the only evidence we can have is anecdotal evidence, and because the anecdotal evidence does indeed support what I'm saying and does not support what you say, you're always always ALWAYS content to come in and say "nope show facts" as you ignore the general atmosphere around you and insist on facts I cannot possibly have. I'm making every possible attempt I can to argue my point despite the lack of tangible evidence because I believe in the value of discussion, but I obviously can only do so much. You make no such attempt. You always sit there smugly stating "nope facts please" while EA locks away said facts in a vault.
If we were discussing anything else where facts are tangible and possible to find, I'd be with you 100%. Facts are great, facts should be revered. But we're not in that situation. EA doesn't like sharing info on their sales and the reception of their games. All you do when you sit here and demand facts in the face of anecdotal evidence that does indeed support what I'm saying...? You're dissuading discussion. You're shutting it down rather than attempting to make a point yourself. And sure enough, you never never never never NEVER even attempt to make arguments for your stance, you just sit there criticizing my lack of evidence. I understand this situation isn't perfect, I understand facts would be ideal....but I also don't think an outright refusal to TRY and discuss anything at all is a great response to a lack of factual evidence either. That sounds downright terrible; discussion is great at pinpointing strengths and faults of individual features.
The percentage of population being transgender is a really thin argument. 0% of the population is a vampire, was that a bad priority too ? 0% of the population is an alien, bad priority ? 0% of the simmers are babies, should they also had not released them ? People play with other things that what they are irl : different gender, different ages, different ethnic groups, different clothes styles. Why would it be different for Unisex CAS ?
Do you know what arguing in bad faith is...? It's when you step into a discussion completely unwilling to consider your opposition may be right. You're not there to be receptive and open to opposing opinions and ideas, you're there to pick a side and fight tooth and nail for that side as if it were a sports team.
Given the absolute ridiculousness of your arguments like the quoted above (I refuse to believe you truly cannot understand how aliens, vampires and babies all have unique gameplay tied to them that makes them popular whereas transgender sims are merely reskins of male and female features that have existed since release), your lack of effort to EVER try and provide support for your own stances, and relentless efforts to turn anything into "well no one has evidence so none of us can say and the convo should probably just die now," I have a very difficult time believe you aren't arguing in bad faith.
Regardless of what anyone feels about transgenderism, the fact is that transgenders as a group have it hard right now. You don't have to understand or even believe in transgenderism to know that this is true. They are regularly bullied, beaten up and murdered. They are denied social services and even medical attention in many areas. Some spend their entire childhoods and teen years friendless and loveless, even by members of their own family. Politicians and other members in a position of authority have no qualms about whipping other people into a frenzy about them.
So no--given the fact that disabled people are now treated with dignity and respect, aren't routinely singled out for beat downs, bullying (or worse), have access to many services, don't have family members turning them out into the streets for being disabled or politicians and religious figures inciting violence against them, I really don't see where you're going with any of this at all. You want to argue there's some kind of a double standard in the way people are regarding transgenders vs the disabled, when the disabled have their rights intact and transgenders are currently getting beaten up, attacked and bullied on a regular basis.
Actually, both groups are very regularly bullied and abused, sometimes to death. Disabled people being treated with "dignity and respect" and having equal rights is absolutely not what's happening in reality, just go read some statistics. I know that this is off-topic, but I couldn't be without reacting to your asserting that disabled people aren't abused and even murdered just because of their disability. Please do some research before saying that disabled people aren't abused, and making some "competition" between two groups that suffer from a very hard life, thanks in advance.
Forums tend to be lightening rods for the vocal minority.
The vocal minority also has a tendency to skew perception by means of relentless repeitition.
Example:
Star Wars "The Force Awakens" is one of the highest grossing movies of all time, with a decent amount of citical acclaim.
You wouldn't know it by just looking at a random sampling of Youtube videos and comments however.
It's critics are louder and more relentless than the people who just enjoyed the movie and got on with their lives.
Hence majority forum opinions don't neccesarily acurately reflect the feelings of an entire fanbase.
What in the world did I walk into? A video game discussion or a group therapy session?
@DeservedCriticism I'm sorry for everything you've been through and everything, but in the end of the day, we are talking about a video game. You made, IMO, an unjustified claim about why the transgender patch was added. I disagreed with you and then I explained why. If I wanted to, I could've also started posting personal details about my life to defend my point but then why take it that far for what's, essentially, just a discussion about a game?
Heck, is this discussion even really about the Sims 4 anymore, or is there something else lurking beneath the surface?
What in the world did I walk into? A video game discussion or a group therapy session?
@DeservedCriticism I'm sorry for everything you've been through and everything, but in the end of the day, we are talking about a video game. You made, IMO, an unjustified claim about why the transgender patch was added. I disagreed with you and then I explained why. If I wanted to, I could've also started posting personal details about my life to defend my point but then why take it that far for what's, essentially, just a discussion about a game?
Heck, is this discussion even really about the Sims 4 anymore, or is there something else lurking beneath the surface?
Are we srs rite now? ?
Dude I dunno if you've noticed, but both my post AND YOUR POST are gone. I even apologized within my post because yeah I knew I was going off topic by responding, and I'm not to suprised to see the mods came through and cleaned them, but let's be clear here: you started it. You can't provoke such a discussion, come here in the aftermath where your post is deleted too, and then act like I'm the one that took the discussion too far and took it off topic.
I can take responsibility for going off topic, but I'd like you to do the same.
And what it all comes back to...? My point in the other discussion still stands as relevant: it is unwise to make an update guided by politics or virtue signaling, it's smarter to make an update guided by a researched attempt to provide as many simmers with gameplay they want as possible.
It's been my favorite Sims version since launch, and I've played The Sims, Sims 2, and (my least favorite of them) Sims 3. You might want to tone back some of your "we's" and "everyones", because they just aren't true. Simmers have a wide variety of taste in gameplay and art design; Sims 4 appeals to many of us - and no version could possibly appeal to everyone.
I agree totally. Furthermore the things that are mentioned which wasn't there from the base game, I saw like a challenge. AND I have welcomed very big improvements, which other players, who haven't played earlier versions will not acknowledge. We got rid of the larvae babies, the rabbit holes, the ugly maternity clothes, and we got an open world in it's true meaning. Namely that we now can let our sims live everywhere and still keep the connection to friends and family. We also got a game that runs so much better than the earlier versions, prettier sims with nicer clothes. And, and --- I could go on for at least an hour. Playing the Sims has never been more beautiful or better in my opinion.
It's been my favorite Sims version since launch, and I've played The Sims, Sims 2, and (my least favorite of them) Sims 3. You might want to tone back some of your "we's" and "everyones", because they just aren't true. Simmers have a wide variety of taste in gameplay and art design; Sims 4 appeals to many of us - and no version could possibly appeal to everyone.
I agree totally. Furthermore the things that are mentioned which wasn't there from the base game, I saw like a challenge. AND I have welcomed very big improvements, which other players, who haven't played earlier versions will not acknowledge. We got rid of the larvae babies, the rabbit holes, the ugly maternity clothes, and we got an open world in it's true meaning. Namely that we now can let our sims live everywhere and still keep the connection to friends and family. We also got a game that runs so much better than the earlier versions, prettier sims with nicer clothes. And, and --- I could go on for at least an hour. Playing the Sims has never been more beautiful or better in my opinion.
Please let me add on this, for the players who haven't played earlier versions: yes we got rid of larvae babies, we also got rid of the adorable, realistic babies in Sims 2. Those are still the best. And we got rid of rabbithole buildings, not of rabbitholes. And you're quite right about the world being open in terms of being able to expand, which is great, but that is not the same as open/seamless. I can travel between neighborhoods in Sims 3 as well. And you can pretend there's no such thing as relationship culling in your praises, but it's there. Can you restore relationships with mods in 4, the way you can with mastercontroller in 3? (genuine question, I hope so)
It's been my favorite Sims version since launch, and I've played The Sims, Sims 2, and (my least favorite of them) Sims 3. You might want to tone back some of your "we's" and "everyones", because they just aren't true. Simmers have a wide variety of taste in gameplay and art design; Sims 4 appeals to many of us - and no version could possibly appeal to everyone.
I agree totally. Furthermore the things that are mentioned which wasn't there from the base game, I saw like a challenge. AND I have welcomed very big improvements, which other players, who haven't played earlier versions will not acknowledge. We got rid of the larvae babies, the rabbit holes, the ugly maternity clothes, and we got an open world in it's true meaning. Namely that we now can let our sims live everywhere and still keep the connection to friends and family. We also got a game that runs so much better than the earlier versions, prettier sims with nicer clothes. And, and --- I could go on for at least an hour. Playing the Sims has never been more beautiful or better in my opinion.
What game are you playing?
Being able to perform better than Sims 3 =/= runs so much better than ALL previous Sims games. Not like it's hard to top Sims 3 anyways. That's like saying you can beat Mike Tyson in a Boxing Match because you're already a better boxer than Stephen Hawking.
It's been my favorite Sims version since launch, and I've played The Sims, Sims 2, and (my least favorite of them) Sims 3. You might want to tone back some of your "we's" and "everyones", because they just aren't true. Simmers have a wide variety of taste in gameplay and art design; Sims 4 appeals to many of us - and no version could possibly appeal to everyone.
I agree totally. Furthermore the things that are mentioned which wasn't there from the base game, I saw like a challenge. AND I have welcomed very big improvements, which other players, who haven't played earlier versions will not acknowledge. We got rid of the larvae babies, the rabbit holes, the ugly maternity clothes, and we got an open world in it's true meaning. Namely that we now can let our sims live everywhere and still keep the connection to friends and family. We also got a game that runs so much better than the earlier versions, prettier sims with nicer clothes. And, and --- I could go on for at least an hour. Playing the Sims has never been more beautiful or better in my opinion.
What game are you playing?
Being able to perform better than Sims 3 =/= runs so much better than ALL previous Sims games. Not like it's hard to top Sims 3 anyways. That's like saying you can beat Mike Tyson in a Boxing Match because you're already a better boxer than Stephen Hawking.
When The Sims 4 equals Sims 3 in EP's and GP's it will be interesting for sure to see where players stand on the performance front. It's pretty much a given that as more stuff is piled on the base it will bog down and performance will get worse for the low end. After CL there was a fresh batch of threads pertaining to poor performance and lag, which I suspect will be a common occurance. Catering the base game to the low end definitely helped move units of the game, but it really doesn't help when those players machines aren't capable of running the game + a boatload of packs without a noticeable decline in performance. I predict low end players will come to be just as dissatisfied with performance as they were with Sims 3.
That patch wouldn't provide any relief to transgendered people anyway. If a trans man wants to make his simself, he'll create a man. If a trans woman wants to make her simself, she'll create a woman. I feel like this patch is more aimed at people who like cross-dressing and int.ers.ex conditions.
Concerning anything transgender, statistics show only people who have decided to transition, a very large majority of them keep their identity to themselves. But a patch like this won't solve all problems anyway. Just like a disabled patch wouldn't solve much either. As a disabled person myself, it actually would only make me feel uncomfortable. In no way it could reflect the reality of things. So I'm fine if these patches weren't there.
Good points
The thing is in The Sims does not have to be 100% factual all of the time. As you suggested there is no reason why a transman (born as a female) could just make themselves as a man in The Sims and carry on from there.
I have Sims who have various mental health conditions, more than 20 who have been diagnosed with 'conditions' such as Aspergers but they don't actually play any different to any other 'neurotypical' Sims of mine as in reality, Aspergers people are not much different anyway.
The thing is if we wanted to include 'everyone' how many situations would we have to create? What about players who may have been injured during conflict somewhere? Would The Sims have to be so precise that during CAS you will be able to choose from a list of ailments?
Let's just leave The Sims as it is. We can choose skin tone and hair colour which is good enough but no need to get too complicated
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
There's been a massive amount of players asking for more customized gender options since TS2. Self-representation is important whether it's the gender update or the cultural clothing in CL. It's a good thing to feel noticed and recognized especially in a game like this.
You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
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You guys know Maxis consulted with actual trans people about the gender options patch, right? They didn't just ask cisgender people how trans people would logically represent themselves - as a cis person, how would I even know that? There's a good chance they actually got this right.
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
Are you truly so blind as to how needlessly divisive and even discriminatory you're being when you needlessly bring race into this...? It's painful to watch.
Comments
I agree.
And it's comedy, it wouldn't be funny if female sims (and only them) could get pregnant this way. It's something I like about the sims' humor, like cowplants and all the rest. Imagine if a man said IRL that he's been abducted by aliens and he thinks they got him pregnant, that would be hilarious.
Who dares saying this isn't funny ! (OK this is TS3 but it's been there since TS2, and I hope it will still be there in future versions too) It's the funniest part that the pregnant sim is a guy ! And notice how the girlfriend cares much more about her salad than her new baby
dailymotion.com/video/x4yhen9_sims-3-naissance-extraterrestre-alien-birth_videogames
My Sims 3 blog, Back to the Sims 3
And you don't know it appeals to 10 times of .3% of the population either. You have absolutely no data on the percentage of the playerbase interested in this kind of feature to base your claim it's bad priority.
This is why I'm not fond of discussing things with you: your argument always results in telling me I don't have factual numbers regarding a company that refuses to release factual numbers. You then sit in complete denial of the general tone of the forums, and simple facts that we STILL see people call out the transgender patch as a waste of time but rarely see praise for it these days, and just insist your take on matters is correct because there's no evidence to the contrary.
Burden of proof is on you when you make a claim. The simple fact that there's at least FOUR people in this thread that have spoken against the patch while you're currently the only one praising it...? The aformentioned fact that we see complaints about it to this day? The hard numbers on what percent of the population is allegedly transgender? Sorry, I can't do more than that, and that's not for lack of trying.....but it's still more than you are bringing.
But sure, go ahead. Keep thinking it was a FANTASTIC update that the majority of fans loved and absolutely wasn't a waste of time or a showcase of bad priorities. Evidence? (even if only circumstantial or anecdotal since neither of us can provide much more) Who needs that? We have FAITH AND OPINIONS!!!
I have no doubt that some suit somewhere in marketing or whatever thought 'hey, let's appeal to this demographic to help boost sales'. Literally everything in the game goes through that. Take your most favorite aspect of your most favorite game and, guess what? It's there to sell the game or that feature to you.
But to say the devs making that patch weren't personally invested and wanted to provide that options for the community for the actual reasons to be inclusive and you know, allow for player creativity and agency? I think you're sorely mistaken and woefully ignorant, if not biased toward whatever vendetta agenda you have, because oh woe-is-you-how-EA-crushed-your-dreams or whatever.
Do you like pizza? It's marketed and designed to sell to you. Better boycott it because it's not freely given to you.
Like the patch was.
So you don't like that I'm not sharing the same bias as you and rather ask for source/facts than rely on your own gut feeling ? Yes, if you claim something as fact without providing any evidence, I'll point out that you have none. That's my logical side.
The percentage of population being transgender is a really thin argument. 0% of the population is a vampire, was that a bad priority too ? 0% of the population is an alien, bad priority ? 0% of the simmers are babies, should they also had not released them ? People play with other things that what they are irl : different gender, different ages, different ethnic groups, different clothes styles. Why would it be different for Unisex CAS ?
I'm not claiming my side is correct by the way, I absolutely don't know how many people like Unisex CAS. I don't have that kind of data. But then I'm not pretending I have it either. And I'm not pretending Unisex CAS is a good or bad priority for Maxis/the game based on data I don't have.
Anyone who's played all of the sims games from EA--not just The Sims--knows that there has been a long history of people behind the scenes adding progressive elements to them. For example, there is a notorious "gay" Easter Egg in SimCopter. Allowing sims to have gay relationships and same sex couples to have babies are two more examples. So the transgender patch is something that is completely in line with what the game has done in the past. It's not something that's so out of line to warrant the kind of suspicion you are trying to generate about it.
No, I don't actually.
Regardless of what anyone feels about transgenders, the fact is that they as a group have it hard right now. You don't have to understand or even believe in transgenderism to know that this is true. They are regularly bullied, beaten up and murdered. They are denied social services and even medical attention in many areas. Some spend their entire childhoods and teen years friendless and loveless, even by members of their own family. Politicians and other members in a position of authority have no qualms about whipping other people into a frenzy about them.
So no--given the fact that disabled people are now treated with dignity and respect, aren't routinely singled out for beat downs, bullying (or worse), have access to many services, don't have family members turning them out into the streets for being disabled or politicians and religious figures inciting violence against them, I really don't see where you're going with any of this at all. You want to argue there's some kind of a double standard in the way people are regarding transgenders vs the disabled.
Why? To further make some illogical point that the double standard is proof that there was a cynical motive on the part of EA to have a transgender patch? Sorry. I don't understand the logic behind this at all. The disabled have their rights intact and are seen as valuable members of society worthy of respect and dignity, while transgenders aren't and are getting bullied, beaten, harassed and misunderstood.
Another thing I'm going to take issue with is when you say this:
What do you mean by "cultural aspects" of City Living? I live in NYC, and the "cultural aspects" are the norm here as they are in most cosmopolitan cities around the world. In NYC alone, we have entire enclaves of ethnic communities here from all over the world here, from Greeks, Russians and Italian-Americans to yes, Arabs, Hispanic and West Indian. The area surrounding the Old Salt House is interchangeable with areas of NYC, particularly around Chinatown. That is the reality of what many large urban cosmopolitan cities are like. It would have been unrealistic to have a city as large as San Myshuno and not have it be cultural.
Same thing with all the cities in TS4. They tried making each world as much as the type of city they were emulating. That's why so many of the townies and cultural elements in Windenburg are clearly European while the ones in CL are mostly Asian and a mixture of other ethnicities. There was no cynical motives at play in creating San Myshuno (to gain brownie points or to generate sales), any more than when the creative team decided to model Windenburg after a European city.
What's more, there have always been cultural elements in this game, going back to Sims 1. There were African, Asian and traditional style clothing and objects, including kimonos, African masks and vases. Sims 3 had World Adventures, where you could visit Egypt, France and China. For you to single out the cultural aspects in CL as something that was whipped up to generate sales--when cultural aspects have always been part of the franchise--doesn't make any sense whatsoever and says more about your own cynical view of things than it does about the reality of the game.
I'm saying make an attempt. You KNOW neither of us can provide factual evidence. You KNOW that if you demand evidence, all it does is shut down discussion.
But because the only evidence we can have is anecdotal evidence, and because the anecdotal evidence does indeed support what I'm saying and does not support what you say, you're always always ALWAYS content to come in and say "nope show facts" as you ignore the general atmosphere around you and insist on facts I cannot possibly have. I'm making every possible attempt I can to argue my point despite the lack of tangible evidence because I believe in the value of discussion, but I obviously can only do so much. You make no such attempt. You always sit there smugly stating "nope facts please" while EA locks away said facts in a vault.
If we were discussing anything else where facts are tangible and possible to find, I'd be with you 100%. Facts are great, facts should be revered. But we're not in that situation. EA doesn't like sharing info on their sales and the reception of their games. All you do when you sit here and demand facts in the face of anecdotal evidence that does indeed support what I'm saying...? You're dissuading discussion. You're shutting it down rather than attempting to make a point yourself. And sure enough, you never never never never NEVER even attempt to make arguments for your stance, you just sit there criticizing my lack of evidence. I understand this situation isn't perfect, I understand facts would be ideal....but I also don't think an outright refusal to TRY and discuss anything at all is a great response to a lack of factual evidence either. That sounds downright terrible; discussion is great at pinpointing strengths and faults of individual features.
Do you know what arguing in bad faith is...? It's when you step into a discussion completely unwilling to consider your opposition may be right. You're not there to be receptive and open to opposing opinions and ideas, you're there to pick a side and fight tooth and nail for that side as if it were a sports team.
Given the absolute ridiculousness of your arguments like the quoted above (I refuse to believe you truly cannot understand how aliens, vampires and babies all have unique gameplay tied to them that makes them popular whereas transgender sims are merely reskins of male and female features that have existed since release), your lack of effort to EVER try and provide support for your own stances, and relentless efforts to turn anything into "well no one has evidence so none of us can say and the convo should probably just die now," I have a very difficult time believe you aren't arguing in bad faith.
Actually, both groups are very regularly bullied and abused, sometimes to death. Disabled people being treated with "dignity and respect" and having equal rights is absolutely not what's happening in reality, just go read some statistics. I know that this is off-topic, but I couldn't be without reacting to your asserting that disabled people aren't abused and even murdered just because of their disability. Please do some research before saying that disabled people aren't abused, and making some "competition" between two groups that suffer from a very hard life, thanks in advance.
Edit : a few sources
WHO : Violence against adults and children with disabilities
US Department of Health and Child Services : Statistics on Abuse and Neglect of Children With Disabilities
UK government : Disability facts and figures
My Sims 3 blog, Back to the Sims 3
The vocal minority also has a tendency to skew perception by means of relentless repeitition.
Example:
Star Wars "The Force Awakens" is one of the highest grossing movies of all time, with a decent amount of citical acclaim.
You wouldn't know it by just looking at a random sampling of Youtube videos and comments however.
It's critics are louder and more relentless than the people who just enjoyed the movie and got on with their lives.
Hence majority forum opinions don't neccesarily acurately reflect the feelings of an entire fanbase.
@DeservedCriticism I'm sorry for everything you've been through and everything, but in the end of the day, we are talking about a video game. You made, IMO, an unjustified claim about why the transgender patch was added. I disagreed with you and then I explained why. If I wanted to, I could've also started posting personal details about my life to defend my point but then why take it that far for what's, essentially, just a discussion about a game?
Heck, is this discussion even really about the Sims 4 anymore, or is there something else lurking beneath the surface?
Are we srs rite now? ?
Dude I dunno if you've noticed, but both my post AND YOUR POST are gone. I even apologized within my post because yeah I knew I was going off topic by responding, and I'm not to suprised to see the mods came through and cleaned them, but let's be clear here: you started it. You can't provoke such a discussion, come here in the aftermath where your post is deleted too, and then act like I'm the one that took the discussion too far and took it off topic.
I can take responsibility for going off topic, but I'd like you to do the same.
And what it all comes back to...? My point in the other discussion still stands as relevant: it is unwise to make an update guided by politics or virtue signaling, it's smarter to make an update guided by a researched attempt to provide as many simmers with gameplay they want as possible.
I agree totally. Furthermore the things that are mentioned which wasn't there from the base game, I saw like a challenge. AND I have welcomed very big improvements, which other players, who haven't played earlier versions will not acknowledge. We got rid of the larvae babies, the rabbit holes, the ugly maternity clothes, and we got an open world in it's true meaning. Namely that we now can let our sims live everywhere and still keep the connection to friends and family. We also got a game that runs so much better than the earlier versions, prettier sims with nicer clothes. And, and --- I could go on for at least an hour. Playing the Sims has never been more beautiful or better in my opinion.
What game are you playing?
Being able to perform better than Sims 3 =/= runs so much better than ALL previous Sims games. Not like it's hard to top Sims 3 anyways. That's like saying you can beat Mike Tyson in a Boxing Match because you're already a better boxer than Stephen Hawking.
When The Sims 4 equals Sims 3 in EP's and GP's it will be interesting for sure to see where players stand on the performance front. It's pretty much a given that as more stuff is piled on the base it will bog down and performance will get worse for the low end. After CL there was a fresh batch of threads pertaining to poor performance and lag, which I suspect will be a common occurance. Catering the base game to the low end definitely helped move units of the game, but it really doesn't help when those players machines aren't capable of running the game + a boatload of packs without a noticeable decline in performance. I predict low end players will come to be just as dissatisfied with performance as they were with Sims 3.
Good points
The thing is in The Sims does not have to be 100% factual all of the time. As you suggested there is no reason why a transman (born as a female) could just make themselves as a man in The Sims and carry on from there.
I have Sims who have various mental health conditions, more than 20 who have been diagnosed with 'conditions' such as Aspergers but they don't actually play any different to any other 'neurotypical' Sims of mine as in reality, Aspergers people are not much different anyway.
The thing is if we wanted to include 'everyone' how many situations would we have to create? What about players who may have been injured during conflict somewhere? Would The Sims have to be so precise that during CAS you will be able to choose from a list of ailments?
Let's just leave The Sims as it is. We can choose skin tone and hair colour which is good enough but no need to get too complicated
It is a shame that they never consulted with players over all of the 'missing content' that players had actually been asking for...
Like the awesome toddlers we just got, for free? Okay, then.
Just because something wasn't asked for in a loud way doesn't mean it's not a valuable and good thing to do. Allowing a minority of people the ability to self-represent that they didn't have before is an actual good thing. It's not only popular things that are worthwhile. Sometimes things that give a minority of people a seat at the table with the rest of us are worth doing even if those things aren't clamored for. We're talking people with enormously high risks in their daily lives — rates of depression, suicide, and being victims of violence that you, as a white cis male, do not face anything like. But you think that what... being able to get in a car in a game, maybe, is more important than those people abilities to represent themselves at all? Just because more people openly want it?
I believe that good things should be done, not only things that are popular. And that it's really cool when companies that could be making piles of cash by selling you your virtual cars to vroom around in instead choose to give that regularly oppressed sliver of the population a free seat at the grownups' table. Did that get the company some attention? Sure, and deservedly so. They did a good thing and deserve some credit for, yet again, breaking ground in enabling nonmajority-group people to represent their lives in simulation play.
Going vroom in cars (or whatever else you have in mind) is not more important than that. Just more popular.
What has me being 'white' have to do with anything?
There's been a massive amount of players asking for more customized gender options since TS2. Self-representation is important whether it's the gender update or the cultural clothing in CL. It's a good thing to feel noticed and recognized especially in a game like this.
origin ID: maureenponderosa
It means that you've been, by default, less likely to be personally exposed to a whole host of problems that other people have been. It's something I'm very conscious of in my own life as a white person; friends and acquaintances who aren't deal with all sorts of stuff I don't have to. I have similar privilege as a cis, hetero person.
But please go ahead and privilege your need for whatever popular thing you like over other people's ability to self-represent at a basic level.
Are you truly so blind as to how needlessly divisive and even discriminatory you're being when you needlessly bring race into this...? It's painful to watch.