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Townie household generation problems
luthienrising
Posts: 37,628 Member
Apologies in advance for this being really long! But it's got lots of info in it.
So, I started a vanilla game with only one Sim in it, and with no genetics mod and no townie-suppression mod (I've left in a no-townie-genocide mod) to take a look at what the game was doing with household structure when it generates its own Sims. This is also keeping in mind what @Shimrod101 has said about how the game has some precoded household types it picks from:
Here's what I've found to back that up.
I started with one young adult female Sim who lived in Willow Creek. The game placed 6 households into houses, all in Willow Creek. Those were varied households, so I was happy about that: one pair of roomies (who have the same last name and look like they could be sisters, so I wondered if the game shouldn't have said so), three families with two parents and two children, and two single-mom families, one with two children, the other with one.
It also generated 23 townie households, every single one of which was a single-Sim household. I might have been okay with that, but there wasn't a single young adult male among them! Not one!
Two days later the game finally had made three YA males, one of them the mailman (going to the Library generated a lot of new townies). It had made a lot more other single-household Sims, though. I tried sending her to the nightclub, but that generated no new Sims at all.
The next day, Day 5, I sent her to the park. This time the game generated -- finally -- some multiperson townie households! Two of those were two Adult parents and one Teen boy. The other four (four!) were one Young Adult mom, one Teen daughter, and one male Child. In five of the six, the son looks nothing at all like the mother or sister. That's five adopted boys.
On day 7, my Sim went on a date over to Oasis Springs. This was the first time she'd been there. The game created six households to house in Oasis Springs. Three were more single-Sim households (with no more YA males). Three were families: one of two parents and one boy child, one of two parents and a boy and a girl child, one of a single YA mom with a Teen girl and boy Child. In two of the three, the children look adopted again.
Moving from one house to another didn't make more housed Sims. I'm not sure what does, I guess! There are a lot of empty homes.
Right now I'm on day 11, and there's been no aging up, and I'm thinking about having these Sims (she got married on day 10) have a baby, so it seemed a good time . Here's what concerns me about what the game is doing with household generation:
1. Throughout the game, there have been 25%-30% elders, every single one a single. That's way higher than real-life demographics, which would be about 15% (and definitely some in couples). I'm going to end up using Shimrod's new mod that reduces that percentage.
2. The game has generated many more Adults than Young Adults: 38% of the Sims in the game are Adults, but only 15% are Young Adults.
3. The game has generated 67% females, 49% males. The ratio is off in every single age group, but most especially in Young Adults, where I've got 15 women and only 4 men. In Young Adults, the ratio was way, way off well before I took Sims to the park and the single-mom-of-two pattern kicked in.
4. That's not all that the single-mom-of-two pattern is making happen. It's also totally thrown off the gender ratio in Teens and Children. There are 8 girl teens to 5 boy teens, and only 4 girl children to 8 boy children.
5. The game hasn't generated no single childless married couples, of any age.
And here's why this is bothering me, most especially the gender balance:
Not everyone micromanages the townie population. Lots of players just play their played characters and let them run into Sims in the world the way we do IRL. And lots of Simmers play under rules that say they can't micromanage the townie population. So when the gender balance is completely flipped out like this, there are going to be fewer young men to match my young played women up with. There are going to be no nice, also childless couples next door to invite over for dinner. There are going to be fewer other boys for played boy teens to hang out with, and fewer other girls for played girl children to be friends with.
I hope that Maxis will have a look at the household generation to make fewer single townies, to vary up the single-parent household structures so that they don't throw the overall gender balance off, to look at the balance of age groups, and to look at the genetics of the game-generated children. And if I'm not around on Tuesday during the chat, I hope that someone else is, to show them that we've got actual evidence that something's not right in household generation, and that it matters.
And if you got this far, here's a kitten:
So, I started a vanilla game with only one Sim in it, and with no genetics mod and no townie-suppression mod (I've left in a no-townie-genocide mod) to take a look at what the game was doing with household structure when it generates its own Sims. This is also keeping in mind what @Shimrod101 has said about how the game has some precoded household types it picks from:
Shimrod101 wrote: »I've seen these other files since then, which I have mentioned somewhere else, which define the Single Mom homeless household or the Newleywed household or Caucasian Nuclear Family and African Nuclear Family etc. These files state quite clearly that the sims in these households will be, for example, the two Adults, a female teen and a male child. The composition of the households is different in each file of course. So the composition of the sims incuded in the household is not random in any way, it is set in stone; the individual sims in each generated household will be made using the Cas Modifiers Randomizer just like the single people of course.
There is a type of sim used in some of these pre-defined household files called Adult Female Generic, or Male Teen Generic for example. When these files are used it may be that the generic sim created is more likely to be dark-skinned to balance out the hood, as I wrote in my quote, but I haven't seen this defined anywhere in XML files.
Also the part I wrote about Elders is BS. I've found a file now which creates all these extra Elders, as compared to YA and A, with precise numbers on "weighted chance" for getting one of these three. The Lounge venue for example, uses this file I'm referring to. The chance for Elders is simply too high compared to particularly the YA. (I'll probably go later today with a mod on this file, as my result after using it for awhile seems OK.)
Here's what I've found to back that up.
I started with one young adult female Sim who lived in Willow Creek. The game placed 6 households into houses, all in Willow Creek. Those were varied households, so I was happy about that: one pair of roomies (who have the same last name and look like they could be sisters, so I wondered if the game shouldn't have said so), three families with two parents and two children, and two single-mom families, one with two children, the other with one.
It also generated 23 townie households, every single one of which was a single-Sim household. I might have been okay with that, but there wasn't a single young adult male among them! Not one!
Two days later the game finally had made three YA males, one of them the mailman (going to the Library generated a lot of new townies). It had made a lot more other single-household Sims, though. I tried sending her to the nightclub, but that generated no new Sims at all.
The next day, Day 5, I sent her to the park. This time the game generated -- finally -- some multiperson townie households! Two of those were two Adult parents and one Teen boy. The other four (four!) were one Young Adult mom, one Teen daughter, and one male Child. In five of the six, the son looks nothing at all like the mother or sister. That's five adopted boys.
On day 7, my Sim went on a date over to Oasis Springs. This was the first time she'd been there. The game created six households to house in Oasis Springs. Three were more single-Sim households (with no more YA males). Three were families: one of two parents and one boy child, one of two parents and a boy and a girl child, one of a single YA mom with a Teen girl and boy Child. In two of the three, the children look adopted again.
Moving from one house to another didn't make more housed Sims. I'm not sure what does, I guess! There are a lot of empty homes.
Right now I'm on day 11, and there's been no aging up, and I'm thinking about having these Sims (she got married on day 10) have a baby, so it seemed a good time . Here's what concerns me about what the game is doing with household generation:
1. Throughout the game, there have been 25%-30% elders, every single one a single. That's way higher than real-life demographics, which would be about 15% (and definitely some in couples). I'm going to end up using Shimrod's new mod that reduces that percentage.
2. The game has generated many more Adults than Young Adults: 38% of the Sims in the game are Adults, but only 15% are Young Adults.
3. The game has generated 67% females, 49% males. The ratio is off in every single age group, but most especially in Young Adults, where I've got 15 women and only 4 men. In Young Adults, the ratio was way, way off well before I took Sims to the park and the single-mom-of-two pattern kicked in.
4. That's not all that the single-mom-of-two pattern is making happen. It's also totally thrown off the gender ratio in Teens and Children. There are 8 girl teens to 5 boy teens, and only 4 girl children to 8 boy children.
5. The game hasn't generated no single childless married couples, of any age.
And here's why this is bothering me, most especially the gender balance:
Not everyone micromanages the townie population. Lots of players just play their played characters and let them run into Sims in the world the way we do IRL. And lots of Simmers play under rules that say they can't micromanage the townie population. So when the gender balance is completely flipped out like this, there are going to be fewer young men to match my young played women up with. There are going to be no nice, also childless couples next door to invite over for dinner. There are going to be fewer other boys for played boy teens to hang out with, and fewer other girls for played girl children to be friends with.
I hope that Maxis will have a look at the household generation to make fewer single townies, to vary up the single-parent household structures so that they don't throw the overall gender balance off, to look at the balance of age groups, and to look at the genetics of the game-generated children. And if I'm not around on Tuesday during the chat, I hope that someone else is, to show them that we've got actual evidence that something's not right in household generation, and that it matters.
And if you got this far, here's a kitten:
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Post edited by luthienrising on
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Comments
I'm okay with that
So, getting a Sim pregnant resulted in another family being generated (along with 8 more single townies) ... and it's yet another YA mom with a teen daughter and a boy child. The daughter looks nothing like her mom.
All the YA-mom-with-two-kids that the game has generated are black (or mostly: one has a white son), so it occurred to me that this could also be throwing intended ethnic/racial balance in the game off, and if the game is aiming for an "American" demographics, then it is indeed doing that. My game is, as of day 13, 43% white, 39% black, 16% other. That might represent U.S. demographics at some point in the future, but it doesn't now, and just like the gender imbalance (45% male, 55% female), I'm pretty sure this is being caused by the overreliance on this one household structure to spawn teens and children. I'm all for representing a North American demographics in the game -- it's diverse, and that looks good -- but it isn't doing that, and I suspect it's supposed to be.
I'm also increasingly wishing, as of Day 13, that the game would move more Sims into houses. My Sims haven't had new neighbours since Day 1. Given that I can always evict a household to move into a house (just like real life -- we don't always buy empty homes, we buy them from someone), that seems pointless. I'd like my Sims to have more neighbours, not just single townies who pass by. More people to talk about property values and troublesome youth with.
@shaposh2012: It's out of sheer curiosity and because the other Simmers I know personally don't micromanage at all that I decided to do this. I think the game should be doing a better job of town-filling for the many Simmers who don't want to micromanage their unplayed Sims.
@Sincerbox: I'm optimistic that there might be an identifiable bug in the townie generation, or a bit of code that's easy enough to tweak to redress the gender imbalance that I think is the worst of the problems. (I've not, by the way, seen non-natural gender imbalance in Elders or Adults, but that would naturally change, I think, as Sims age. Depends on how the game culls townies, I suppose, if you let it do that culling. I haven't hit 180 in the population yet and I know the developers were still looking at further tweaks to townie culling, so it doesn't seem much point in tracking that too right now. I'll stop before long with this, plus I ought to be doing other things too!)
I really hope the devs take a look at this. May I ask how you are seeing what new families are being generated? Is it by looking at the household management screen? I actually haven't touched that yet, but if that's how you are keeping track, I'll start keeping an eye on it.
The problem is that I kind of don't care anymore. A person gets a little tired of constantly beating their heads against the same wall. I just will be very judicial when it comes to spending more money on Sims 4. Knowing how certain issues are completely ignored and deemed as nonimportant by the game developers/designers.
I've been thinking about something Shimrod has stated, that the game has it coded in that it will have this many of this type of Sim and that many of that type.
What if we make townies that fit the ratios? If we can find that post of Shimrods, the game wants this percentage of elders then make that percentage and place it in the game. The game wants this percentage of this skin tone, place it in the game. Meet the requirements and see what happens.
Yes, they are very skewed according to the way the coding is written but I'm beginning to think that it was designed this way.
That they wanted the game to do this.
Sounds like more of the sandbox being taken out of the sims. Making us play the game how they want instead of how we want. I can understand needing certain amounts of different age groups, but we should be able to have our townies the way we want in terms of gender, skin tones and the compromise of the families.
I am disappointed in that they promoted how we would be able to create our own townies, yet the game keeps spawning similar looking townies. I am one of those players that likes to have all the sims and lots in the world be my own creation. I have made several of my own townies for the bin. I have yet to see some of them even in the game. The ones I do see is usually after I go and delete the EA townies.
I feel we/the players deserve to have more control over this. We should have the option to create the townie "pool" and the game can then provide us with an "order" upon loading that the townie bin requires additional sims, with a general suggestion about family sizes, ages, genders, etc.
Players who don't want to micromanage could still set some options for the randomizer. Such as selecting options for preferred townie types (families with multiple kids, married YA couples ready to have kids, single sims of different ages, etc). But it would be so nice if we could actually have hands on control (full creation or check boxes to tick off if the player doesn't want to micromanage the creation of the new townies).
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Since there's no story progression & the townies always generate oddly then disappear, I've taken to micromanaging my own kind of story progression where I take the townies I have and make them have babies & then when their babies grow up I make them have babies with another townie etc. so I don't really need the townie generator anymore.
It would be nice if the game did that for me though.
Thanks for posting but it seems this isn't exactly what is happening in my game though yes, I do get a lot of black moms with teenage girls and a white son or white teen daughter. I just want to say NO family has ever moved into my game, ever. I have played one game since I got this game. Never started a new one other than to build some lots. But the game I play is one game. I may save it under different names but it is still one game.
Mortimer must be dead, because he is no longer in the Goth household panel, Alex is a teen, I guess, but Bella hasn't changed at all, nor had Cassandra. But they both might be YAs for all I know. I don't play them.
I have built so many cheap houses in the game for Sims to be able to afford them. Kicked out Maxis Sims and put them in the homeless bin, deleted elders as it became necessary, etc. And just about remodeled both towns, full of my own Sims but had plenty of empty houses, and the game has NEVER moved in one family or Sim from the bin. Ever.
I have aging off for my played Sims and On for Non played Sims. And the patches and no mods like that. So, what I see is two females, and sometimes a kid. Sometimes they are just roommates no kids. I assume they are two YAs but most of the time they are black. And most of the time they are overweight and the same Sims just different hairstyles etc. I assume the game uses the first nose, the first lips, the first brow, etc. in the CAS. Just like the other games used to use the first outfit or hat etc. in the other games when generating silly townies.
I get males/ singles but they are probably close to being elderly and not at all attractive Sims.
The game did generate a white single female and white teen son, but that was the only time I saw that. I for one am tired of the game not fillign the houses, and or giving me the same darn family setup, or the same ethnic group over and over. And they all look the same if you were to change their hair.
So, I have cleared out all Maxis Sims, deleted all townie Sims I don't like and replaced them all (but kept many that are my Sims' friends) and added my own townie homeless Sims. Because this game is redundant in more ways than one.
ETA: anyone can go into manage households add kids to the homeless Sims households, edit their clothes in CAS etc. Add spouses etc. What is interesting is when you delete most of those Sims in the homeless bin and just scroll to see which Sims the game adds back. And yes, it's as I stated above.
ETA: I just want to point out I do have the 'fill houses' option set to on, since day one I got this game. I assume it's never going to work unless I do start a new game. And what's the point in that. These are my households, I have played this way since the TS1. I play several households, rotate, and keep going adding more and more and play all those, too, until I am finally satisfied with what happens in my towns. Which would be never. LOL. So, my game was never fixed by a patch to fill houses, etc. And I still get the same Sims, same old man but one is black and one is white but they even have the same hair just different sweaters and different names. It's annoying.
Yep. What I was doing was going into Manage Households about midnight each Sim day.
-When my first heir was a child he had the Social Butterfly aspiration. He needed a BFF, and then 5 child friends (not counting BFF). There were exactly 5 male children between both worlds. I had to bring in one more from the gallery for him to complete the aspiration.
-When he was a teen, there were zero female teens between the two worlds. I had to bring in some #legacyloves female teens for him to court.
-He now is married and has a male and a female teen, and a female child. There are 2 female teens, zero male teens, and two children--one male, one female--between the two worlds. During this generation it seems like the game has only been generating single Sims, YA/A/E.
Because this is Legacy Challenge, the only 2 mods I have are the one that gets the population count and Shimrod's CAS modifiers bug fix.
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After adopting, the townies are now joined by a whole lot of single moms with one child or baby. The male-female balance gets thrown waaaay off. I don't recall this happening initially; IMO, the game should not be saving the birth-parent families as townies. I'm sure it wasn't originally! I never saw it mentioned here until very recently and never saw it happen in my game till now.
As a person who always starts with a YA female and marries a townie and settles down - I'm struggling! Thank you for proving I wasn't just going mad