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@SimGuruModSquad : Prospects for world editing?

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Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
edited August 2014 in General Mods Discussion
This question has come up a lot among both modders and non-modders, so now that we have somebody visiting ( @SimGuruModSquad ) who might actually have ANSWERS, thought I'd get it out there :)
  • Can you tell us whether there are any plans to release an official tool?
  • If not, are there plans to release enough technical info for our mod tools developers to provide their own tools?
  • If not, what are the prospects for tools developers to work it out on their own? ;) I.e. how complicated is it?

From what I've read, the following are the things both modders and players would most like to be able to do, ranging from probably-simplest to probably-most complex:
  • edit the between-lot world, i.e. place objects and paint terrain
  • add new lots to exisiting neighborhoods
  • override the lot number limit (more than 5 per neighborhood)
  • increase the size of lots
  • create new neighborhoods and add them to existing worlds
  • override the neighborhood number limit (more than 7 per world, counting park and hidden neighborhoods)
  • create completely new worlds, with heightmap and distant terrain

Can you rule any of those in or out as possibilities?

Comments

  • VRWolfVRWolf Posts: 1 New Member
    If anything I would love to have a world editor. I'm just hoping it won't be so buggy and stuff.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    In addition to what Srikandi says, I'd also like to know the following:

    - Do you know whether it'd be possible to *remove* objects in existing worlds? Perhaps by overriding them with an empty mesh/texture?
    – I've seen on screenshots that there's quite many buildings in the uneditable space in neighbourhoods -- are those actual lots? If yes, would it be technically possible to remove those too, and what are the implications for forward compatibility -- are those lots perhaps needed (and should thus be left untouched) for later EPs, or are they just decoration?
    - Would it be an option to duplicate an existing world and install it more than once (by changing some ID or something .. can we make the game believe the (edited) copy is a different world? Sort of like changing the neighbourhood numbers in TS2 worked?)?
    Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    Good questions pbox, and I guess I should add... terrain height and water tools both for lot and inter-lot world.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    Let's not get ahead of ourselves :) -- I'll be happy if it turns out I can potentially get rid of some of the disneyland stuff :|

    But yeah, can never hurt to ask. Ini files? Lighting? Custom skies and water colors? Fog? Effects? Underwater lots?


    Oh, and another important one: are adjacent lots technically possible again? So that they share a border, I mean?
    Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4
  • SimGuruModSquadSimGuruModSquad Posts: 597 Member
    Hello! This is a big topic for sure… so here goes:

    Firstly, I can’t really comment on what we may or may not release in the future. What I can say more generally is that on the modding front we will try to be reactive to your feedback and needs. And in general since you guys are so fast at making amazing tools we are focusing on giving you the information you need to do so. And specifically for worlds I can say that we are absolutely not doing anything purposely to limit or discourage world mods.

    But! Worlds are one of the most complex things to add to the game so honestly this is a challenge. Once the game comes out and you guys get your hands on the data then there are more discussions to be had on this topic. I can say that the world data format is somewhat more straightforward than on Sims 3 so I am optimistic. Side note: the Create A Sim demo does contain one world, “CAS_GCW.world”, although it is just the room where CAS happens in so it’s pretty simple – but you might want to check that out as a sneak peek of what is to come.

    As for the specific things you should or should not be able to do – pretty much anything we can do you should be able to do. But replacement or modification of existing worlds will need to be the first step. Addition of new worlds is something that is going to be more difficult because new world files can’t just be dropped in the mods folder and picked up by the game quite the same way other mods can – Maxis support will likely be needed to make world additions robust and I can’t promise anything here right now.

    Re lot size limits and lot number limits: These limits should be exceedable but I have not tested this so I can’t guarantee there isn't something in the code forcing a cap on the data right now. These type of limits are put in place for minimum spec performance more than “code does not support it” reasons, although there is a practical limit at some point. Note that adding new lots has similar issues as adding new worlds, so this will be a similar challenge to get working so likely will take time and may need Maxis support.

    Re removing off-lot objects of existing worlds, I can think of a couple ways this could be achieved so I expect this will be quite doable although again we have not tested any of that so I can’t guarantee it. But I think this will be one of the more straightforward things to do especially if you are OK with just nuking specific objects. As for forward compatibility of these types of mods, I expect this should be OK, the game is pretty resilient to world changes – but again it’s not a path we have tested extensively so I can’t guarantee anything.

    Thanks!
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    Wow! Thank you for that very genuine and detailed answer :smiley:

    I think that most people will be very happy with it, especially this bit: "These type of limits are put in place for minimum spec performance more than “code does not support it” reasons". And also "pretty much anything we can do you should be able to do". That's enough to delight the hardcore modders, at least ;)

    Folks have been messing with the demo world in a small way... you'll find a lot of background replacements around here ;)
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    edited August 2014
    Well, that sounds like a good start =)

    Thanks for the tip re. CAS_GCW.world, I'll definitely take a look at that -- since custom CAS backgrounds have already been made, if that's the same format and mechanics as any other world then that answers the texture editing question for me. Yay!

    Good to know about the object removing thing, as well (yes, for now I was really just thinking of nuking things -- for my own game I'd prefer a more "generic" desert for instance, without dinosaur statues and flowerbeds and such :p .. if this type of mod (edited "standard" worlds) could also be shared somehow, all the better, but personally I'm not in a hurry with that.).

    Thanks for the info, much appreciated -- no need to "guarantee" anything, it's just good to hear whether there's a technical limit somewhere vs. just a performance precaution .. so that we have a better idea of what is feasible. (Oh but on that note, would you know anything about adjacent lot placement? In TS3 I guess that was impossible because of the in-world routing, but since that seems to work differently now, maybe that's not a restriction anymore?)
    Post edited by pbox on
    Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4
  • SimGuruModSquadSimGuruModSquad Posts: 597 Member
    Thanks all!

    Regarding adjacent lots: That limitation was due to a specific idiosyncrasy of the Sims 3 routing system so pretty sure that's not an issue with Sims 4. But I will check with our routing guys next week to be sure, so stay tuned. But standard caveat applies even if the routing system handles it in theory, we have not tested it so results may vary.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    Thanks, again – yeah I know prefectly well how much testing this kind of thing needs >.< (if it's anything remotely like lot resizing/editing back in TS2) but it's great to hear it *might* be possible.

    Could you perhaps ask your routing folks about building walls/foundations on lot borders, too, while you're at it? As in .. row houses? City blocks? :D Would TS4 be able to deal with that, even just theoretically? (I'm guessing that this limitation in TS2/3 had something to do with the routing as well, that's why it comes to mind)
    Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    edited August 2014
    I said above:

    > since custom CAS backgrounds have already been made, if that's the same format and mechanics as any other world then that answers the texture editing question for me.

    Turns out that's not the case -- just so that I don't confuse anyone else: those backgrounds are part of the game files (CAS full build), not in the world files (which I was assuming).
    Post edited by pbox on
    Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4
  • SimGuruModSquadSimGuruModSquad Posts: 597 Member
    Update on adjacent lots: There are potential issues when lots that are precisely adjacent, due to precision issues with the math that could cause routing calculations to get confused. So while this should work in theory, there may be bugs since this is not something we have tested. These types of precision issues tend to be very specific, it works fine until a specific world is created where it does not. So it would be recommended to leave some amount of space between lots, like a quarter tile.

    Hope that helps! Although we have some work ahead of us before we have to deal with this issue.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    edited August 2014
    Thanks for the info!

    I’m not afraid of the testing – when publishing worlds there’s always lots of testing required –; as long as there’s no strict limit imposed that makes things simply impossible, all is well =). Back in TS2 (and also in TS3, for all I can tell), people handled this very responsibly btw; I’ve published a heavily modified TS2 neigbourhood myself a couple years ago and I have never seen anyone complaining about EA/Maxis when something didn’t work out. They all seem to understand that once we’re doing things the game wasn’t designed for, it’s our own responsibility.

    Oh and I don’t expect to be making custom worlds anytime soon .. but just knowing it *might* be possible to build row houses again makes the game a lot more interesting for me =).


    One thing I’d still like to know though: can you tell whether the game would support walls/foundations built on lot borders? Or is that a different topic that has nothing to do with the routing?
    Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4
  • auntielyndsauntielynds Posts: 3,071 Member
    Nice to see this topic being discussed.
    I can say that the world data format is somewhat more straightforward than on Sims 3 so I am optimistic.
    This makes me optimistic for some sort of world creation tool in the future.

  • NoahBangsNoahBangs Posts: 91 Member
    I am 100% with you Srikandi715. Tools and knowledge to create truly open worlds is a must-have.
  • BrainstripBrainstrip Posts: 27 Member
    Awesome! These responses make me optimistic of what the modding community might come up with. I'd also love to make row houses or just walls built on borders, it is something I always wanted!
    I love the approach to the modding community the team is having, it will make things a lot easier than in the past. :D
    I'm Gus Rockman, a machinimator at BRAINSTRIP (http://brainstrip.tumblr.com) and staff at SimsFilmFest!
    Origin ID / Gallery: Brainstrip
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    NoahBangs wrote: »
    I am 100% with you Srikandi715. Tools and knowledge to create truly open worlds is a must-have.

    Well, I doubt we'll get THAT. If the game engine they're using could support truly open worlds, they would have released the game with open worlds. Hence I infer that it can't.

    Bigger worlds with more, bigger neighborhoods and lots sounds feasible though, if you have the hardware to support it.
  • aaronrogers8i3aaronrogers8i3 Posts: 555 Member
    Thanks for the info! I'm really hoping for a some sort of world tool and I've already got tons of ideas.
  • NoahBangsNoahBangs Posts: 91 Member
    NoahBangs wrote: »
    I am 100% with you Srikandi715. Tools and knowledge to create truly open worlds is a must-have.

    Well, I doubt we'll get THAT. If the game engine they're using could support truly open worlds, they would have released the game with open worlds. Hence I infer that it can't.

    Bigger worlds with more, bigger neighborhoods and lots sounds feasible though, if you have the hardware to support it.

    Well, that's what I was saying. Giant neighborhoods are basically open worlds to me.
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    NoahBangs wrote: »
    Well, that's what I was saying. Giant neighborhoods are basically open worlds to me.

    Ahh... to me the crucial point is about no loading screens :/ but failing that, big is good!
  • IngeJonesIngeJones Posts: 3,247 Member
    To me, open world rests on whether the world is all part of one save or not - ie you open another lot and it is the same time as the one you just left and those sims have been doing things while you played the other lot. In TS2, when you went back to a lot you'd played ages ago, they are still sitting in the same places they were when you last played them. In fact even in TS3 you *sort of* had loading screens, as the rendering caught up and the right LODs were loaded.
  • Srikandi715Srikandi715 Posts: 1,753 Member
    IngeJones wrote: »
    To me, open world rests on whether the world is all part of one save or not - ie you open another lot and it is the same time as the one you just left and those sims have been doing things while you played the other lot.

    Ahh... that's what I think of as the "Universal Clock" :) But yeah, they're all independent but related concepts. And no officially defined terminology.
  • Damienf519Damienf519 Posts: 6,988 Member

    So I take it, that basically what you're saying is that at the moment, you can't confirm or deny that there will be a world editor. That's good actually, because that means at one point you guys might still be able to release one. I really hope you do eventually. You'll give people more reason to buy things like store venues, since people won't always have a place to put them on an existing map that looks good, without bulldozing something else. Some people might also be more likely to buy DLC objects, including premium content, if they see that someone else has used it in one of their custom worlds.
  • Wpardue77Wpardue77 Posts: 129 Member
    I'm curious how many updates there will be for the next month after the release and will EA be able to add more modding capabilities to the mod community with these future updates
  • bothamannbothamann Posts: 5 New Member
    edited December 2014
    I think it would be a good thing if EA allowed us to create worlds, however, if they did so it would a bit hard to get distant terrains, so perhaps they could give us the terrains of other worlds, and later provide a tool that would make it easy for simmers to make their own terrains.
    Though I do have a problem with the lot sizes currently in the game, I don't think there should be such limits, I think they should allow u to choose any size u want with the CAW tool (if at all possible), I was hoping for larger lots in the Sims 4, to give us more freedom with building, like castles and such, in previous Sims games u couldn't really make proper castles, with gardens and all, pls. EA do it for the crazy builders.
  • ArielDelphinusArielDelphinus Posts: 628 Member
    I would be happy to just have what we had in Sims 2.
    “Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.”
    ― Neil Gaiman
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